Yes intelligence and culture. At a glance I thought you were referring to my cat avatar but I'll take it . Not my cup of tea (coffee really); Maybe it is a cup of tea. Whatever the case least favorite but hopefully something better is around the corner.
forget the rewards. we now have a Klingon empire run by someone whose prior life was to wage war against the Federation... she's now gonna be buddy buddy??
J'ula isn't in charge. She's not 'running' anything. The Mother of the Empire is in charge, who happens to be the one who *ENDED* the first Klingon War with the Federation. Get your facts straight before spouting off, k? K.
she only ended the war because she had no choice, they had a bomb ready to blow the Homeworld to Grethor. without that fact she would have continued the war. Get your facts straight before YOU spout off, k?
Serialized TOS never tackled larger politics in the galactic community. It's not a fair example because it largely avoids big picture worldbuilding. There were some drops if it made for exposition of an episode but they were footnotes that served the story they were telling directly. Colonel Green and Kahless were both prominent political figures who "appeared" in "Savage Curtain" but they were intrinsic to the screenplay.
It's when you get into the the later series and the continuing exposition that happens as the world building grows. A long running franchise becomes organic. Over time it fill itself in. Half a century is a lot of growth and over that time a lot of information on the setting has made it to screen in snippets.
The bigger you write the more of a "ripple" they should produce in an imaginary world. If you write small enough to fit you don't run the risk of making a continuity mess. Trek like every other IP is consistently refitted. Changes are made and events are inserted where there were none before. An example I provided was the Augment Virus story from ENT. It was added to reconcile a costuming conundrum that had existed for decades. It worked because the incident was a source of shame for the Klingons and that's why it was never discussed.
Klingons are boastful. It's a braggart storytelling culture obsessed with legacy and acts. Anyone choosing to write into Trek when dealing with Klingons has to be wary of what they have Klingons do. After the fact it's better to do wrong because it looks as though it's something nobody was forthcoming with.
Serialized TOS never tackled larger politics in the galactic community. It's not a fair example because it largely avoids big picture worldbuilding. There were some drops if it made for exposition of an episode but they were footnotes that served the story they were telling directly. Colonel Green and Kahless were both prominent political figures who "appeared" in "Savage Curtain" but they were intrinsic to the screenplay.
It's when you get into the the later series and the continuing exposition that happens as the world building grows. A long running franchise becomes organic. Over time it fill itself in. Half a century is a lot of growth and over that time a lot of information on the setting has made it to screen in snippets.
The bigger you write the more of a "ripple" they should produce in an imaginary world. If you write small enough to fit you don't run the risk of making a continuity mess. Trek like every other IP is consistently refitted. Changes are made and events are inserted where there were none before. An example I provided was the Augment Virus story from ENT. It was added to reconcile a costuming conundrum that had existed for decades. It worked because the incident was a source of shame for the Klingons and that's why it was never discussed.
Klingons are boastful. It's a braggart storytelling culture obsessed with legacy and acts. Anyone choosing to write into Trek when dealing with Klingons has to be wary of what they have Klingons do. After the fact it's better to do wrong because it looks as though it's something nobody was forthcoming with.
Well, Gene always wanted a war...DS9 vs Dominion-esque, but he couldn't afford it. I'm not sure if it would have been against the Klingons, the Romulans, an alliance of whoever, but his budget never allowed him an ongoing plot.
I personally do prefer episodic to serial, although I always enjoy an episode arc, or at least a good two-parter.
forget the rewards. we now have a Klingon empire run by someone whose prior life was to wage war against the Federation... she's now gonna be buddy buddy??
J'ula isn't in charge. She's not 'running' anything. The Mother of the Empire is in charge, who happens to be the one who *ENDED* the first Klingon War with the Federation. Get your facts straight before spouting off, k? K.
she only ended the war because she had no choice, they had a bomb ready to blow the Homeworld to Grethor. without that fact she would have continued the war. Get your facts straight before YOU spout off, k?
Still wrong. She wasn't strong-armed into ending the war. She chose to help end it. It was *HER* bomb readied to blow the homeworld to bits. Hers and hers alone. Nobody else. *SHE* helped plant it (yes, with the help of Section 31), and *SHE* could trigger it whenever *SHE* wanted. It was *HER* ultimatum to the Klingon Empire to stay in line or else. The remaining Houses both feared and respected her for such a bold action.
surprised the Klingons let her become chancellor again in 2411, the Klingons even had a hard time accepting Kahless II another Borath clone as their leader, Klingons just seem to hate clones for some reason.
forget the rewards. we now have a Klingon empire run by someone whose prior life was to wage war against the Federation... she's now gonna be buddy buddy??
J'ula isn't in charge. She's not 'running' anything. The Mother of the Empire is in charge, who happens to be the one who *ENDED* the first Klingon War with the Federation. Get your facts straight before spouting off, k? K.
she only ended the war because she had no choice, they had a bomb ready to blow the Homeworld to Grethor. without that fact she would have continued the war. Get your facts straight before YOU spout off, k?
Still wrong. She wasn't strong-armed into ending the war. She chose to help end it. It was *HER* bomb readied to blow the homeworld to bits. Hers and hers alone. Nobody else. *SHE* helped plant it (yes, with the help of Section 31), and *SHE* could trigger it whenever *SHE* wanted. It was *HER* ultimatum to the Klingon Empire to stay in line or else. The remaining Houses both feared and respected her for such a bold action.
surprised the Klingons let her become chancellor again in 2411, the Klingons even had a hard time accepting Kahless II another Borath clone as their leader, Klingons just seem to hate clones for some reason.
Yeah, I don't think Cryptic prioritizes canon or good story telling. They just found out they could get Mary Elizabeth Chieffo as a voice actress and brute forced her character into a position where they could use her as much as they want. None of this is even remotely canon so it doesn't matter.
The whole clone thing... it definately adds a bit of mysticizm to the Klingons. They are far older than people think, with an understanding of things that go beyond what the Federation knows. The Monks of Boreth are as close to magic users in Star Trek as you can get without crossing the Omnipotent Line. In a way it kinda mirrors things we see here on Earth today with some orders of Monks being able to do things that normal humans kinda can't.
Honestly it adds a bit of mystery to an otherwise straight forward, rather blunt about things species.
surprised the Klingons let her become chancellor again in 2411, the Klingons even had a hard time accepting Kahless II another Borath clone as their leader, Klingons just seem to hate clones for some reason.
Yeah, I don't think Cryptic prioritizes canon or good story telling. They just found out they could get Mary Elizabeth Chieffo as a voice actress and brute forced her character into a position where they could use her as much as they want. None of this is even remotely canon so it doesn't matter.
Except the Klingons never got the chance to see how the reaction would be to Kahless II becoming Emperor.
Gowron just threw a hissy fit so they decided to make him Emperor as a figurehead. In fact, its explicitly mentioned in "Rightful Heir" that enough Klingons WOULD see him as the rightful ruler to plunge the Empire into civil war if Gowron tried to fight it.
So the episode in question people keep trying to use to denounce L'rell's leadership says that, in fact, a sizeable portion would accept her as leader.
There's just one tiny problem here. You're running on the premise that L'rell is on the same level as Khaless. Right now, here in the real world there are people all over the earth who expect Jesus to return and rule over the entire planet for a thousand years. If Franklin Theodor Rosevelt were to suddenly come back from the grave, clone or otherwise, very few people would demand that he lead the U.S. again much less the entire planet.
Fine, Abraham Lincoln then. But L'rell's name was never uttered prior to her introduction in Discovery. Where as Khaless had decades worth of mentions and build up leading to the Rightful Heir episode. There is nothing to suggest that she is a religious figure.
Also, the TOS Klingons were constant antagonists throughout the series. The big transformative moment came in Undiscovered Country with the destruction of Praxis. It was that event that led to the Empire we see in TNG and DS9.
surprised the Klingons let her become chancellor again in 2411, the Klingons even had a hard time accepting Kahless II another Borath clone as their leader, Klingons just seem to hate clones for some reason.
Yeah, I don't think Cryptic prioritizes canon or good story telling. They just found out they could get Mary Elizabeth Chieffo as a voice actress and brute forced her character into a position where they could use her as much as they want. None of this is even remotely canon so it doesn't matter.
Except the Klingons never got the chance to see how the reaction would be to Kahless II becoming Emperor.
Gowron just threw a hissy fit so they decided to make him Emperor as a figurehead. In fact, its explicitly mentioned in "Rightful Heir" that enough Klingons WOULD see him as the rightful ruler to plunge the Empire into civil war if Gowron tried to fight it.
So the episode in question people keep trying to use to denounce L'rell's leadership says that, in fact, a sizeable portion would accept her as leader.
(Worf enters)
WORF: The man who appeared to me on Boreth is not Kahless. He is a clone.
GOWRON: A clone!
WORF: Yes.
GOWRON: Did you really think you would get away with this kind of fraud, Koroth? I will have you and this abomination put to death.
WORF: It does not matter, Gowron. You will still not be able to stand against him.
GOWRON: What? He's not real. You just said so.
WORF: I said he was not the Kahless, but in the minds of our people he can be just as powerful as Kahless. Even now, two members of your own crew are sitting on our Holodeck waiting for him to return.
GOWRON: I do not care what they think.
WORF: But hey are not alone. Like many of our people, they need something to believe in, just like I did. Something larger than themselves, something that will give their lives meaning. They need Kahless.
GOWRON: But when they find out the truth?
WORF: It will not matter, Gowron. Despite the facts, they will still believe. They will make a leap of faith and there will be others just like them. Not everyone, but enough to plunge the Empire into civil war if you oppose them.
GOWRON: What are you saying? That I should just hand over the Empire?
WORF: No, that would be unwise as well.
KOROTH: Then what are you proposing, Worf?
WORF: You were right about one thing, Koroth. Our people are becoming decadent and corrupt. They need moral leadership. Kahless can be that leader, as Emperor.
GOWRON: There hasn't been an Emperor in three centuries!
WORF: The political power will remain with the High Council. Kahless would be a figurehead, but he will have the ability to rally the people, to lead by example, to guide them in spiritual matters.
KOROTH: The title is meaningless without the power to back it up.
WORF: Real power comes from within the heart. You would have the power to mold the Klingon heart. You could return them to honourable ways according to the original teachings of Kahless which are within you. It would be a great challenge, if you have the courage to accept it.
GOWRON: And what will we tell the people about their new Emperor? That he appeared in a cave or a laboratory?
WORF: We will tell them the truth. All of the truth. But we will tell them that even if he is not the real Kahless, he is the rightful heir to Kahless.
GOWRON: And if I refuse to go along with this?
WORF: Then my brother and those who support him on the Council will fight you, and I will fight you. And the Empire will fall back into civil war.
GOWRON: What do you say about this, Koroth?
KOROTH: What I say is unimportant.
KAHLESS: It is acceptable.
(Koroth kneels before his Emperor. Worf does the same)
KAHLESS: Join with me, Gowron. Let us usher in this new era together.
GOWRON: Vorcha doh bagh (kneels) Kahless.
Exactly but Kahless isn't really the emperor, emperor is just a fancy title it has no meaning to it, Martok could have gave Kahless the power to rule the entire empire but didn't, same with J'mpok, we live in a empire where Chancellors hold more power than the Emperor himself.
Fine, Abraham Lincoln then. But L'rell's name was never uttered prior to her introduction in Discovery. Where as Khaless had decades worth of mentions and build up leading to the Rightful Heir episode. There is nothing to suggest that she is a religious figure.
Also, the TOS Klingons were constant antagonists throughout the series. The big transformative moment came in Undiscovered Country with the destruction of Praxis. It was that event that led to the Empire we see in TNG and DS9.
Oh, Disco has a lot to answer for...all previous Star Trek series had answered the questions we had about the Klingons and I just wish they'd come up with something totally original, then adding all these addendums, which really do nothing but muddle.
A new race, a new civilisation, a new threat, new everything, etc...I wouldn't have NEARLY as many issues with Disco if they didn't Tribble all over everything that was done so well before it.
I had to read through all of these comments that my original post elicited in all of you. Fascinating!
However, my intention was to lament the less than stellar rewards received in the final chapters of the Year of Klingon. I mean, good job, taking that ball and running all over the map with it, folks. Did anyone else besides the initial few commenters, think that the tetryon stuff was out of left field?
yeah it does seem weird since neither Mo'Kai Klingon or Elachi ships uses tetryon, I don't know any ship or faction that uses tetryon weapons, I'm coming up blank and google had been no help what so ever.
I had to read through all of these comments that my original post elicited in all of you. Fascinating!
However, my intention was to lament the less than stellar rewards received in the final chapters of the Year of Klingon. I mean, good job, taking that ball and running all over the map with it, folks. Did anyone else besides the initial few commenters, think that the tetryon stuff was out of left field?
I had to read through all of these comments that my original post elicited in all of you. Fascinating!
However, my intention was to lament the less than stellar rewards received in the final chapters of the Year of Klingon. I mean, good job, taking that ball and running all over the map with it, folks. Did anyone else besides the initial few commenters, think that the tetryon stuff was out of left field?
Well... if you think about it... maybe those are the munitions we "appropriated" in the last mission from that arms dealer. Might be a bit out of left field, but... I guess themeatically it makes some sense to "keep" what we confinscated. The space mines might be useful on a Tetryon build. I don't know how the ground mines will handle as I'm not really a mine layer. Mostly a Drone Master on my primary Engie. I could see the ground Tet mines being useful against enemies that have lots of shield though. I wouldn't use them against the Borg though. They'd adapt.
yeah it does seem weird since neither Mo'Kai Klingon or Elachi ships uses tetryon, I don't know any ship or faction that uses tetryon weapons, I'm coming up blank and google had been no help what so ever.
Well, I always thought Tetryon was exclusively Tholian and then Tzenkethi. I only ever use it when an Endeavor calls for space Tetryon, but it's probably my least favourite. I almost wish that weapons types were faction bound...phasers for FED, disruptors for KDF, plasma for ROM and polaron for the Dominion. Loads of different variants, but...
yeah it does seem weird since neither Mo'Kai Klingon or Elachi ships uses tetryon, I don't know any ship or faction that uses tetryon weapons, I'm coming up blank and google had been no help what so ever.
Well, I always thought Tetryon was exclusively Tholian and then Tzenkethi. I only ever use it when an Endeavor calls for space Tetryon, but it's probably my least favourite. I almost wish that weapons types were faction bound...phasers for FED, disruptors for KDF, plasma for ROM and polaron for the Dominion. Loads of different variants, but...
Actually romulans using plasma is something new and unique to STO, aside from using plasma torpedoes, romulans have canonically used disruptor weapons on their ships, the Star Navy/Tal Shiar ships still uses disruptors.
Well, I always thought Tetryon was exclusively Tholian and then Tzenkethi.
Hirogen and Benthans also use Tetryon. Hirogen actually use a lockbox variant complete with the different proc.
Was the energy type created for the Hirogen to use in Voyager (the series that is)? I don't recall there was ever said what energy type Tholian used in TOS and there's barely nothing about Tzekethi in canon.
There's just one tiny problem here. You're running on the premise that L'rell is on the same level as Khaless. Right now, here in the real world there are people all over the earth who expect Jesus to return and rule over the entire planet for a thousand years. If Franklin Theodor Rosevelt were to suddenly come back from the grave, clone or otherwise, very few people would demand that he lead the U.S. again much less the entire planet.
There's just one tiny problem here. You're ignoring the entire context behind L'rell's place in Klingon history.
L'rell was the one who took the Klingon people, who were bordering on self annihilation after a century+ of disastrous civil war, and reformed them into the Klingon Empire that we see in TOS, and thus later TNG, and DS9. L'rell is the one who built the Klingon Empire as we know it. Not only that, but she is also the most famous follower of T'Kuvma, the man who many Klingons see as being Kahless reborn, and the one who, along with Voq, carried on T'kuvma's message after his death.
It's not just like Roosevelt, L'rell is just as much of a religious figure as she is a political one.
L'rell turned the Klingons into a police state where they are watched at all times - I believe this was discussed in one of the TOS episodes. The Klingons were very much NOT in a good place....sounds like L'rell was a total TRIBBLE up as a chancellor which is not surprising since she did nothing to unite the people instead just threatened them all and then blackmailed them into doing what she said.
I'm really disappointed with STO suggesting that the bomb was still there...in hundreds of years no one thought to remove the "I win" button left behind to blow up the homeworld?
Also - L'rell is an abomination in her current form really...the original clone of Kahless was programmed with memories and wasn't ACTUALLY Kahless, just his form with all of his teachings etc. programmed into him.
L'rell was sent to Klingon hell (for good reason I'm sure) and brought back to infest a clone body...basically she's little more than a demon possessing a body.
The only Klingon mysticism involved is what STO put there, the Klingons have beliefs etc. of course but there was no going back to steal souls etc. until STO introduced it...the current Kahless didn't have a soul beyond whatever was created when he was grown.
First - knock it off with being a TRIBBLE about things...you do it everywhere with the veiled insults etc and it's very demeaning for yourself.
Second - I admit I forgot that line, my interest in the dsc stuff is limited as I find it poorly written. However we know that she didn't make it to the TOS era - either that or she started a cold war then an open shooting war with the Federation suggesting she's a hypocrite and was just making peace with the Feds to buy her time to start a war on her terms instead of the houses.
She didn't fix anything, she blackmailed the Klingons and was gone inside 10 years (or as I said, went back on everything she was supposed to do about peace).
I believe (would need to check) the D7 was shown in previously on TV prior to her time therefore she didn't magically invent it...she may have upgraded them, but that's all.
That's true about getting her soul back...however then if it didn't happen then how do you explain her suddenly having all of her memories etc. back.
Kahless was programmed because there was extensive writing about him and it was still easily shown that he was a fake, there's nothing like that about her and yet she magically came back as herself. She's a spirit possessing a body but now we have to believe that the Empire will suddenly accept a clone from 200 years in the past in charge with her evil stooge as second.
BTW - j'ula really is not redeemable IMHO, playing a TFO and being reminded that she was happy to use her weapon to crack open a moon with her own shipyards and people on it suggests that on top of everything else the Klingons wouldn't be so forgiving...again that's just down to bad writing of course.
Comments
Yes intelligence and culture. At a glance I thought you were referring to my cat avatar but I'll take it
she only ended the war because she had no choice, they had a bomb ready to blow the Homeworld to Grethor. without that fact she would have continued the war. Get your facts straight before YOU spout off, k?
Serialized TOS never tackled larger politics in the galactic community. It's not a fair example because it largely avoids big picture worldbuilding. There were some drops if it made for exposition of an episode but they were footnotes that served the story they were telling directly. Colonel Green and Kahless were both prominent political figures who "appeared" in "Savage Curtain" but they were intrinsic to the screenplay.
It's when you get into the the later series and the continuing exposition that happens as the world building grows. A long running franchise becomes organic. Over time it fill itself in. Half a century is a lot of growth and over that time a lot of information on the setting has made it to screen in snippets.
The bigger you write the more of a "ripple" they should produce in an imaginary world. If you write small enough to fit you don't run the risk of making a continuity mess. Trek like every other IP is consistently refitted. Changes are made and events are inserted where there were none before. An example I provided was the Augment Virus story from ENT. It was added to reconcile a costuming conundrum that had existed for decades. It worked because the incident was a source of shame for the Klingons and that's why it was never discussed.
Klingons are boastful. It's a braggart storytelling culture obsessed with legacy and acts. Anyone choosing to write into Trek when dealing with Klingons has to be wary of what they have Klingons do. After the fact it's better to do wrong because it looks as though it's something nobody was forthcoming with.
Well, Gene always wanted a war...DS9 vs Dominion-esque, but he couldn't afford it. I'm not sure if it would have been against the Klingons, the Romulans, an alliance of whoever, but his budget never allowed him an ongoing plot.
I personally do prefer episodic to serial, although I always enjoy an episode arc, or at least a good two-parter.
surprised the Klingons let her become chancellor again in 2411, the Klingons even had a hard time accepting Kahless II another Borath clone as their leader, Klingons just seem to hate clones for some reason.
Yeah, I don't think Cryptic prioritizes canon or good story telling. They just found out they could get Mary Elizabeth Chieffo as a voice actress and brute forced her character into a position where they could use her as much as they want. None of this is even remotely canon so it doesn't matter.
Honestly it adds a bit of mystery to an otherwise straight forward, rather blunt about things species.
There's just one tiny problem here. You're running on the premise that L'rell is on the same level as Khaless. Right now, here in the real world there are people all over the earth who expect Jesus to return and rule over the entire planet for a thousand years. If Franklin Theodor Rosevelt were to suddenly come back from the grave, clone or otherwise, very few people would demand that he lead the U.S. again much less the entire planet.
Also, the TOS Klingons were constant antagonists throughout the series. The big transformative moment came in Undiscovered Country with the destruction of Praxis. It was that event that led to the Empire we see in TNG and DS9.
Exactly but Kahless isn't really the emperor, emperor is just a fancy title it has no meaning to it, Martok could have gave Kahless the power to rule the entire empire but didn't, same with J'mpok, we live in a empire where Chancellors hold more power than the Emperor himself.
Oh, Disco has a lot to answer for...all previous Star Trek series had answered the questions we had about the Klingons and I just wish they'd come up with something totally original, then adding all these addendums, which really do nothing but muddle.
A new race, a new civilisation, a new threat, new everything, etc...I wouldn't have NEARLY as many issues with Disco if they didn't Tribble all over everything that was done so well before it.
However, my intention was to lament the less than stellar rewards received in the final chapters of the Year of Klingon. I mean, good job, taking that ball and running all over the map with it, folks. Did anyone else besides the initial few commenters, think that the tetryon stuff was out of left field?
Actually, I found them very useless...
Well... if you think about it... maybe those are the munitions we "appropriated" in the last mission from that arms dealer. Might be a bit out of left field, but... I guess themeatically it makes some sense to "keep" what we confinscated. The space mines might be useful on a Tetryon build. I don't know how the ground mines will handle as I'm not really a mine layer. Mostly a Drone Master on my primary Engie. I could see the ground Tet mines being useful against enemies that have lots of shield though. I wouldn't use them against the Borg though. They'd adapt.
Well, I always thought Tetryon was exclusively Tholian and then Tzenkethi. I only ever use it when an Endeavor calls for space Tetryon, but it's probably my least favourite. I almost wish that weapons types were faction bound...phasers for FED, disruptors for KDF, plasma for ROM and polaron for the Dominion. Loads of different variants, but...
Actually romulans using plasma is something new and unique to STO, aside from using plasma torpedoes, romulans have canonically used disruptor weapons on their ships, the Star Navy/Tal Shiar ships still uses disruptors.
Hirogen and Benthans also use Tetryon. Hirogen actually use a lockbox variant complete with the different proc.
Was the energy type created for the Hirogen to use in Voyager (the series that is)? I don't recall there was ever said what energy type Tholian used in TOS and there's barely nothing about Tzekethi in canon.
L'rell turned the Klingons into a police state where they are watched at all times - I believe this was discussed in one of the TOS episodes. The Klingons were very much NOT in a good place....sounds like L'rell was a total TRIBBLE up as a chancellor which is not surprising since she did nothing to unite the people instead just threatened them all and then blackmailed them into doing what she said.
I'm really disappointed with STO suggesting that the bomb was still there...in hundreds of years no one thought to remove the "I win" button left behind to blow up the homeworld?
Also - L'rell is an abomination in her current form really...the original clone of Kahless was programmed with memories and wasn't ACTUALLY Kahless, just his form with all of his teachings etc. programmed into him.
L'rell was sent to Klingon hell (for good reason I'm sure) and brought back to infest a clone body...basically she's little more than a demon possessing a body.
The only Klingon mysticism involved is what STO put there, the Klingons have beliefs etc. of course but there was no going back to steal souls etc. until STO introduced it...the current Kahless didn't have a soul beyond whatever was created when he was grown.
Second - I admit I forgot that line, my interest in the dsc stuff is limited as I find it poorly written. However we know that she didn't make it to the TOS era - either that or she started a cold war then an open shooting war with the Federation suggesting she's a hypocrite and was just making peace with the Feds to buy her time to start a war on her terms instead of the houses.
She didn't fix anything, she blackmailed the Klingons and was gone inside 10 years (or as I said, went back on everything she was supposed to do about peace).
I believe (would need to check) the D7 was shown in previously on TV prior to her time therefore she didn't magically invent it...she may have upgraded them, but that's all.
That's true about getting her soul back...however then if it didn't happen then how do you explain her suddenly having all of her memories etc. back.
Kahless was programmed because there was extensive writing about him and it was still easily shown that he was a fake, there's nothing like that about her and yet she magically came back as herself. She's a spirit possessing a body but now we have to believe that the Empire will suddenly accept a clone from 200 years in the past in charge with her evil stooge as second.
BTW - j'ula really is not redeemable IMHO, playing a TFO and being reminded that she was happy to use her weapon to crack open a moon with her own shipyards and people on it suggests that on top of everything else the Klingons wouldn't be so forgiving...again that's just down to bad writing of course.