people complaining that the Legendary D'Deridex wasn't the best in slot ship in the game,
That's a lie; no one said it should be the best in game. This is what really happened:
Bort designed a very "meh" legendary ship.
Cryptic decided to put it in an expensive pack.
People were justifiably upset and said so.
Bort was forced to make some changes to help the ship sell.
Bort was bitter about having to do that and made his tweets about why every ship shouldn't be special.
I've already made my response to his tweets and a ton of people agree. If they are going to call something "legendary" and charge a boatload for it, it better justify the price.
If he wants to design inferior ships going forward he better prepare himself for disappointment when they don't sell. And when he starts tweeting about how everybody is wrong about not liking those inferior ships, we'll deal with that too.
Except it isn't, because that is the exact same argument brought out every single new ship release whose stats aren't exactly equal to, or better then, the current 3-4 "meta" ships.
You literally said people were asking for the DD to be the BEST. No one said that. Stop lying.
In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument which is based on affirming that something is real because the majority thinks so.
That completely depends on what the argument is about. If it is about literal facts (1+1=2) then it doesn't matter how many agree/disagree. If it is about a product and whether customers think that product is worth the price, it 100% matters how many agree or disagree, because if enough disagree the business isn't going to make enough money. The fact that Bort was forced to change the stats is proof in itself enough customers disagreed. And if he intentionally designs inferior ships in the future, he'll face the same situation.
Except it isn't, because that is the exact same argument brought out every single new ship release whose stats aren't exactly equal to, or better then, the current 3-4 "meta" ships.
Except it isn't that either. While it's true the D'Deridex is neither equal or better than the 3-4 current meta ships that's not an issue. It's a reasonable expectation. The bar is considerably lower than that. Take a walk through the last few years of cruisers and tell me honestly that a ship released in a week might manage parity with a ship released 2 or three years ago. If it didn't it seem out of the power creep that has been a fact of life in the rest of the game. It still doesn't have two cruiser commands. What year were those introduced to most other cruisers? It not only doesn't compete with ships in the meta, it seems the meta has passed it by and it hasn't even dropped yet. And that's legendary. It's great that you hauled out the latin to pad that out too but what you did there is in plain English, a lie of omission.
And if he intentionally designs inferior ships in the future, he'll face the same situation.
The fundamental problem with the argument is that it wasn't inferior.
No, the fundamental problem with this argument is you lied. You said people were asking for the DD to be the BEST, and no one actually said that. I'll keep bringing this up too, FYI.
That devs sometimes bend knee to the outrage mob isn't a sign of the mob being right, but rather devs having become incredibly apathetic to the situation over the years.
If they were "apathetic" they wouldn't care about the outrage in the first place. But nah, this isn't about any "outrage mob". This is about an extremely mediocre ship trying to be passed off as "legendary" with a high price tag.
I forget whom would casually say it, I think it is a mod here, but the statement about "voting with our wallets" is what I think is the strongest voice.
There's probably some that will buy this bundle, & anything else tossed at them, no matter what, their money to do what they want with.
Then there's the other end of the spectrum that won't buy anything no matter what &/or unless they can convert dilithium into zen.
Then, probably??? most players, that weigh whether or not to buy something each time offered based upon whatever criteria they've set for themselves to justify spending more on STO. Again, our money to do what we want with.
Again, the different BOFF seating with Intel & Command, exclusive "Adapted" skin, & the Lego's "She's A Predator" trait.
I apologize if any of my numbers are inaccurate, I think I went cross-eyed when double-checking.
Also there's the other smaller items/services included in the bundle like: Reman species, the 2 Romulan & the 1 Reman uniforms, the T6 free ship coupon, 2 ship slots, 2 X-Upgrades, & 3 gamble Rom DOFF packs.
Clicks are just clicks. The persistent passives that are dependable constants are more attractive to me than wacky powers. I thought some older console did receive adds as passives have become pervasive but others not so much.
Still that's nice they allowed the Republic symbol, my Romulan's will be very happy for that.
For those who wished the D'deridex had a bit better turn than 6, yet realize if you equip one of the two piece SETS it jumps to 8 (+2) and that's before...
[...]
I'm pretty sure that doesn't buff the base turnrate, which things like Skills and RCS multiply against, but merely adds +2 to the final total which is way less than having a starting base of 8 would give you realisticly. That two set is less of a boost than a decent high Mark RCS nowadays.
As for the other boosts past the cut quote, those are good too, but if I still have to run basically all of the ones I have to on the standard T6, that doesn't seem particularly Legendary to me. It doesn't have to have the best turnrate ever, in fact I don't like base turnrate past 15 or so, just enough to use at least single cannons (as per canon) well, which base 6 doesn't for me without resorting to Competitive Wargames Engines (usually Fortified).
I'm pretty sure it does refer to base turn, because it's +2 for the D'deridex, or +3 with the Scimitar consoles. Yet some Consoles (perhaps not all) aren't even limited by Ship type they can be used on...
It should be base of 7 for the Non Legendary Version or 7.5 for the Legendary one, and be then boosted to 10 or 10.5. The SET that comes with the D'deridex will also boost it from 6 by +2 to then 8 base turn.
╘ impulse speed % was only 1.24 used here and it's above 10.
Most other turn consoles are listed by % and generally give 1% - 52.5% depending on the quality and level. At least the Scimitar consoles those all have passive abilities as they came on the T6 versions, which sadly most T5 Consoles lack (though not all do) which is why they should enhance many to give one moderate passive ability!
It's just a constructive criticism, that I hope they reconsider...
Note: Not sure why on a Ground map it reports not 5.3 but 3 deg./sec. as in Space it's 5.3 even though it should be 7.
╘ even my Fleet Garagin / Garagin which identifies a 7.5 base, in space with no consoles only shows 5.8 as well!
╘ how many other ships does this effect (possibly several), cause even with two turn rate % of 52.5% consoles I only go to 9.1 at most?
╘ fair question is, why is a base turn of 5.5, 6.0, 7.5 or showing less than base turn while in Space? That's a penalty!
If the Base D'deridex is 5.5 that should also have it's go to 7.5, or the Legendary version from 6.0 to 8.0.
On ground many ship stats are wrong, but are they moving and what is their engine power ? because while not moving you turn slower, and low engine power gives you a turn penalty.
Note: I was aware of what you stated, and also sure I checked throttle and gave it 100%, yet I also didn't have impulse engines equipped at the time, as I wanted to see the base turn without Impulse modifiers. I'll revise the screenshot to show the most basic impulse, I can find at Mk I for the screenshot.
I understand but giving full throttle does nothing to boost turn rate. Mind you perhaps it's because no impulse... I'll try again with a base impulse Mk II.
Yea I tried to not influence the turn rate no more than I had to, yet realized it doesn't matter, as I realize all Impulse give minimum 1.9+ Flight Turn rate be they Mk I (Common) or Sol Defense Mk XV Epic.
Hence I took the revision out denoting a problem! It works just fine, I was just being overly cautious not to incorrectly influence what was shown. Yet it does indeed boost Scimitar's 7.0 to 10.0+ at Impulse of just 1.24 (the lowest I could go on Scimitar) on the Non Legendary version, as no one has acquired the Legendary yet...
some others have said it. they don't want/care to use specialty seating, they want the ship that fits the toon.
one toon flies the MW Connie, no special specs, just eng sci and tac powers. I like the trinity powers, and thats how it plays. I bought the D7L not for the powers, but because to me there is only ONE Klingon ship, and it's not a B'Rel.
While I am sure that there are many that will appreciate and buy the "Legendary" Romulan ships, I still think there are far more that want a Nova. I think that most would even buy one with the boff and console layout of the legendary intrepid, minus the specialty stuff and the extra MW universal slot. but it can't be $60. how much were the first T6 ships? 40?
whatever the price of those original T6 ships, thats the price point of the not so special ships.
I wonder if we took this discussion to Twitter what kind of reaction there’d be at Cryptic? Since the forums don’t count, and they’re fond of Twitter, how about, instead of all this conjecture and sniping at each other, we flood their mentions! Put the community gripes front and center for all to see. No studio wants bad publicity anymore after the fiasco at those other studios. Wonder if they would take things more into consideration and stop these type of posts/rants form up top?
> @somtaawkhar said: > They would just block people because at that point you are intentionally trying to harass them, and no one has any issue with blocking people who do that. The only bad publicity that anyone would get is the players, when the deserved "look how these players are harassing devs again!" articles come out.
Not talking about some of the comments that are intentionally inflammatory. I’m talking about those that are actually raising solid points. In between the sniping and such there are a lot of valid arguments that, at minimum, should be addressed, especially being that the initial conversation was started by a dev so he should at least get as clear of a picture as possible on the community’s response. I hope he and others aren’t going to be a dev that is going to start a conversation then run/duck and use the “harassment” blanket to not be held accountable.
I'm confused. If someone doesn't care about seatings or specialization, then there's a perfectly 'good' Nova already in the game, ready and waiting to be flown -- two, if you don't care about the ship tier either. Obviously, given how few Nova there are flying around, they're not good enough. People absolutely care about seating and specialization. Anyone who says otherwise is lying (whether to themselves or to others).
While I agree that people care about seating/specialization to some extent, the lack of a ship being played is more due its popularity of a design then anything.
not totally true, a lot of players use the same ship just for the boffs layout. Ships are bought mostly for traits and consoles and are never used, because a lot of them are not meta. I spend a lot of time in game reading conversations in some channels, and it is always the same speech: dmg/dps/meta; that's all.
In fact cryptic should sell directly traits and consoles in boxes; They waste their time creating ships that are not used. the best example the dewan ship which have the grav well trait.
Few players use a ship only because it is nice, fun or thematic.
> @sennahcherib said: > not totally true, a lot of players use the same ship just for the boffs layout. Ships are bought mostly for traits and consoles and are never used, because a lot of them are not meta. I spend a lot of time in game reading conversations in some channels, and it is always the same speech: dmg/dps/meta; that's all. > In fact cryptic should sell directly traits and consoles in boxes; They waste their time creating ships that are not used. the best example the dewan ship which have the grav well trait. > Few players use a ship only because it is nice, fun or thematic.
I kinda agree with both points. I’m not a fan of most of the ships I’ve seen on screen except the Defiant and the Vengeance. The ship I use the most, outside of role playing purposes, is the Chronos because I like the way it looks and plays for my style. Never been into meta dps builds; I just play for fun. But I do recognize that everyone has the preferences and the one thing I like about STO that there’s always a option for everyone as opposed to most games where it’s either “build it like the rest or you’ll get no enjoyment because most content is a struggle”.
your point on the price of ships I can accept that argument and point of view... but honestly who does that? Who buys keys to open boxes with those type of low winning odds? Much cheaper is to just buy keys and sell on exchange for EC and buy the ship on exchange. So while you spend 2-300 dollars from Mudd's Scam store I'll spend 80% less and buy from the exchange thank you.
You are aware that all those ships on the exchange came from people spending 200-250 dollars worth of keys to pull them from lockboxes, to put them on the exchange, right? And they put them on the exchange to make a profit off of them. So, to answer your question of "who does that?" literally everyone who put those ships up for sale on the exchange.
The point of buying it off the exchange is that you are willing to spend more to get a grantee of the ship, compared to spending typically less, but dealing with gambling odds which could make it more. Which... is the same principle behind Mudd's Market. Though, Mudd's eliminates the middleman of buying keys, to sell for EC, to buy ships off the exchange, by allowing you to just buy the ships without the run around.
Also I wasn't speaking about ships. I clearly said they were selling ITEMS like consoles for 70 dollars and other useless items for hundreds of dollars. It is a complete rip off. Besides the stuff is USELESS! USELESS! Like the Cane from season 2 andf the boffs that come with it... seriously it is a rip off. They are selling stuff there that were FREE in the game, and that is ok of the prce was 5 or 10 dollars... but 70 to 130 dollars for garbage LMAOAOA
The most expensive non ship item in the Mudd's store is the Red Angel suit for $120, there is the TOS holo crew for $100, but everything else is $80, with some stuff being $40. There is no console, or other singular item, being sold for "hundreds" of dollars on the Mudd's store.
Even then, those are the full price values of those items, which, again, no one expects you to buy them at. At the 75-85% discounted real value they are $18-$30 for the Red Angel suit,(the most expensive item) to $12-$20 for most everything else, and $6-$10 for the cheap stuff.
So, you're just demonstrably wrong here.
No I'm not. You are just blind.
Lets look at the ships for sale. They are all T6 event ships. Regular T6 ships in the C Store sell for 3000 (30 dollars) Zen and on special for 2500 and 2000 zen (20 -25 dollars). 20 -30 dollars is what T6 ships sell for. But not in the scam store. In the scam store they cost 170 dollars.
Ok next. you point on Full Value items, and I quote, "Even then, those are the full price values of those items, which, again, no one expects you to buy them at. At the 75-85% discounted real value they are $18-$30 for the Red Angel suit,(the most expensive item) to $12-$20 for most everything else, and $6-$10 for the cheap stuff."
Geez this made me laugh. You actually buy into this scam. You actually believe what you just wrote... omg too funny. People like you get what they deserve and look how hard you are trying to justify it here. Amazing.
At the end of the day the prices you posted actually don't exist. There is nothing for sale there for 12-20 dollars. There has NEVER been anything for sale there for 16 dollars EVER. What they are selling is consoles for 70 dollars and event T6 ships for 170 dollars. SCAM.
And the point you fail FAIL to realize is that right now if you go to the store the prices are the prices. You can't deny it. You can't say that people don't expect to pay that amount. People are getting ripped off. You are here trying to justify that.
You have failed. You have totally bought into the scam of inflated pricing and fake sales. But believe me the red angel suite will never be sold for 16-30 dollars. The Event ships have never and will never be sold for the 30 dollars that similar ships are sold for in the c-store. This is why it's a scam. This type of business practice is actually illegal. And just because they are getting away with it doesn't make it alright. Shame on them.
Comments
That's a lie; no one said it should be the best in game. This is what really happened:
I've already made my response to his tweets and a ton of people agree. If they are going to call something "legendary" and charge a boatload for it, it better justify the price.
If he wants to design inferior ships going forward he better prepare himself for disappointment when they don't sell. And when he starts tweeting about how everybody is wrong about not liking those inferior ships, we'll deal with that too.
You literally said people were asking for the DD to be the BEST. No one said that. Stop lying.
That completely depends on what the argument is about. If it is about literal facts (1+1=2) then it doesn't matter how many agree/disagree. If it is about a product and whether customers think that product is worth the price, it 100% matters how many agree or disagree, because if enough disagree the business isn't going to make enough money. The fact that Bort was forced to change the stats is proof in itself enough customers disagreed. And if he intentionally designs inferior ships in the future, he'll face the same situation.
Except it isn't that either. While it's true the D'Deridex is neither equal or better than the 3-4 current meta ships that's not an issue. It's a reasonable expectation. The bar is considerably lower than that. Take a walk through the last few years of cruisers and tell me honestly that a ship released in a week might manage parity with a ship released 2 or three years ago. If it didn't it seem out of the power creep that has been a fact of life in the rest of the game. It still doesn't have two cruiser commands. What year were those introduced to most other cruisers? It not only doesn't compete with ships in the meta, it seems the meta has passed it by and it hasn't even dropped yet. And that's legendary. It's great that you hauled out the latin to pad that out too but what you did there is in plain English, a lie of omission.
No, the fundamental problem with this argument is you lied. You said people were asking for the DD to be the BEST, and no one actually said that. I'll keep bringing this up too, FYI.
If they were "apathetic" they wouldn't care about the outrage in the first place. But nah, this isn't about any "outrage mob". This is about an extremely mediocre ship trying to be passed off as "legendary" with a high price tag.
Might also make their originally include T5 Ships also sell at bit better for those who hadn't had the Legendary version.
Just trying to stay constructive, as always...
There's probably some that will buy this bundle, & anything else tossed at them, no matter what, their money to do what they want with.
Then there's the other end of the spectrum that won't buy anything no matter what &/or unless they can convert dilithium into zen.
Then, probably??? most players, that weigh whether or not to buy something each time offered based upon whatever criteria they've set for themselves to justify spending more on STO. Again, our money to do what we want with.
Fleet DD hull 1.485 shield 1.1 turn 5. impulse .15 inertia 30. +10 wpn-pwr +10 eng-pwr
Lego DD hull 1.55 shield 1.15 turn 6. impulse .16 inertia 45. +15 wpn-pwr +5 shld-pwr +10 eng-pwr
Then the different BOFF seating with MW & TempOp, exclusive "Unity" skin, the Lego's MW +1 Uni console, & "Rapid-Emitting Armaments" trait.
T6 Tac Scimi hull 1.333 shield 1.1 turn 7. impulse .15 inertia 20. +15 wpn-pwr +5 eng-pwr
Lego Scimi hull 1.4 shield 1.15 turn 7.5 impulse .15 inertia 30. +15 wpn-pwr +5 eng-pwr
Again, the different BOFF seating with Intel & Command, exclusive "Adapted" skin, & the Lego's "She's A Predator" trait.
I apologize if any of my numbers are inaccurate, I think I went cross-eyed when double-checking.
Also there's the other smaller items/services included in the bundle like: Reman species, the 2 Romulan & the 1 Reman uniforms, the T6 free ship coupon, 2 ship slots, 2 X-Upgrades, & 3 gamble Rom DOFF packs.
On ground many ship stats are wrong, but are they moving and what is their engine power ? because while not moving you turn slower, and low engine power gives you a turn penalty.
Thanks for reminding me.
Hence I took the revision out denoting a problem! It works just fine, I was just being overly cautious not to incorrectly influence what was shown. Yet it does indeed boost Scimitar's 7.0 to 10.0+ at Impulse of just 1.24 (the lowest I could go on Scimitar) on the Non Legendary version, as no one has acquired the Legendary yet...
one toon flies the MW Connie, no special specs, just eng sci and tac powers. I like the trinity powers, and thats how it plays. I bought the D7L not for the powers, but because to me there is only ONE Klingon ship, and it's not a B'Rel.
While I am sure that there are many that will appreciate and buy the "Legendary" Romulan ships, I still think there are far more that want a Nova. I think that most would even buy one with the boff and console layout of the legendary intrepid, minus the specialty stuff and the extra MW universal slot. but it can't be $60. how much were the first T6 ships? 40?
whatever the price of those original T6 ships, thats the price point of the not so special ships.
> They would just block people because at that point you are intentionally trying to harass them, and no one has any issue with blocking people who do that. The only bad publicity that anyone would get is the players, when the deserved "look how these players are harassing devs again!" articles come out.
Not talking about some of the comments that are intentionally inflammatory. I’m talking about those that are actually raising solid points. In between the sniping and such there are a lot of valid arguments that, at minimum, should be addressed, especially being that the initial conversation was started by a dev so he should at least get as clear of a picture as possible on the community’s response. I hope he and others aren’t going to be a dev that is going to start a conversation then run/duck and use the “harassment” blanket to not be held accountable.
not totally true, a lot of players use the same ship just for the boffs layout. Ships are bought mostly for traits and consoles and are never used, because a lot of them are not meta. I spend a lot of time in game reading conversations in some channels, and it is always the same speech: dmg/dps/meta; that's all.
In fact cryptic should sell directly traits and consoles in boxes; They waste their time creating ships that are not used. the best example the dewan ship which have the grav well trait.
Few players use a ship only because it is nice, fun or thematic.
> not totally true, a lot of players use the same ship just for the boffs layout. Ships are bought mostly for traits and consoles and are never used, because a lot of them are not meta. I spend a lot of time in game reading conversations in some channels, and it is always the same speech: dmg/dps/meta; that's all.
> In fact cryptic should sell directly traits and consoles in boxes; They waste their time creating ships that are not used. the best example the dewan ship which have the grav well trait.
> Few players use a ship only because it is nice, fun or thematic.
I kinda agree with both points. I’m not a fan of most of the ships I’ve seen on screen except the Defiant and the Vengeance. The ship I use the most, outside of role playing purposes, is the Chronos because I like the way it looks and plays for my style. Never been into meta dps builds; I just play for fun. But I do recognize that everyone has the preferences and the one thing I like about STO that there’s always a option for everyone as opposed to most games where it’s either “build it like the rest or you’ll get no enjoyment because most content is a struggle”.
No I'm not. You are just blind.
Lets look at the ships for sale. They are all T6 event ships. Regular T6 ships in the C Store sell for 3000 (30 dollars) Zen and on special for 2500 and 2000 zen (20 -25 dollars). 20 -30 dollars is what T6 ships sell for. But not in the scam store. In the scam store they cost 170 dollars.
Ok next. you point on Full Value items, and I quote, "Even then, those are the full price values of those items, which, again, no one expects you to buy them at. At the 75-85% discounted real value they are $18-$30 for the Red Angel suit,(the most expensive item) to $12-$20 for most everything else, and $6-$10 for the cheap stuff."
Geez this made me laugh. You actually buy into this scam. You actually believe what you just wrote... omg too funny. People like you get what they deserve and look how hard you are trying to justify it here. Amazing.
At the end of the day the prices you posted actually don't exist. There is nothing for sale there for 12-20 dollars. There has NEVER been anything for sale there for 16 dollars EVER. What they are selling is consoles for 70 dollars and event T6 ships for 170 dollars. SCAM.
And the point you fail FAIL to realize is that right now if you go to the store the prices are the prices. You can't deny it. You can't say that people don't expect to pay that amount. People are getting ripped off. You are here trying to justify that.
You have failed. You have totally bought into the scam of inflated pricing and fake sales. But believe me the red angel suite will never be sold for 16-30 dollars. The Event ships have never and will never be sold for the 30 dollars that similar ships are sold for in the c-store. This is why it's a scam. This type of business practice is actually illegal. And just because they are getting away with it doesn't make it alright. Shame on them.