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Stop the Legendary Bundling

i dont have spare 100eds of Dollars - id buy one ships, but i wont buy one ship, and one i didnt even want, together.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    It's like $80 on sale, but I still agree.. I don't like it either.

    Ultimately though, what we like is irrelevant. If these bundles continue to sell, they will continue to vomit them out. As much as I dislike it, I can't say I blame them, it's very hard to go to someone making a large amount of money and asking them to just stop making a lot of money.

    They keep making them because people keep buying them.
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  • joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 519 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    The first anniversary one was absolutely worth it, in my opinion. The discounted prices on the boost packs (the Romulan BoP, the D7, the Shenzhou) were good too. This? Not so much. It's like as they come out, the prices stay roughly the same but the quality (and quantity, up to a point) drops.

    This one is a turnoff to me particularly because all of the fluff that comes with it (uniforms, Remans, etc.), I have already. If they were adding a discount offer for items already unlocked, that would be one thing, but...
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    I wish individual purchases were an option, especially for things like the upcoming Warbird bundle where I already own a lot of the fluff but will not be getting a discount for it, but the reality is that that simply will not be happening. Since even regular C-Store bundles are getting fluff now it's pretty clear that this business model is successful, it sucks for people who are only willing/able to make the smaller purchases but it is what it is.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    Sure, I would love to be able to buy legendary ships individually. And that's exactly why Cryptic isn't going to do that. Here is a post I made yesterday:

    Regarding the pack pricing:

    1: I absolutely know the total value of the combined items in the pack will technically justify the price point.

    2: Many many many many many many many many many many people only want the ships, not the extra items.

    3: Cryptic is well aware of point 2 above, and uses the extra items to justify charging a higher price than if they were only selling the ships.

    It's a pretty simple and obvious situation. If it were NOT simply about being able to charge a higher price, they would offer an option with just the ships. But because they know the vast majority of people would buy the cheaper option (which would mean less profit) they don't give that choice. It's all or nothing.

    PS: just to clarify, I'm not saying any of the above is right/wrong/etc. I'm just describing the situation as it is.

    I'd also like to add this:

    I know people may think "yeah, but if you would sell the ships individually you would actually more because you would have significantly more people spending money VS a smaller amount of people buying the big bundle". Or to put it another way: if 1,000 people spend $5 each you are making more than if 100 people spend $20 each. And that's true in theory.

    But here is the reality: Cryptic actually has market research. They aren't just guessing about the figures I mentioned in the above example. If their data actually showed them they would make more money selling the ships individually they would absolutely do it. They absolutely WANT to take whatever path results in the most profit.

    So, the fact that they are selling the ships bundled means their data proves it is the most profitable way. And, let's just be real here; that data means a hell of a lot more than a person saying "yeah but please" on a message board.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    I just hope they don't do any more of those "new character" type ones... with the level boost to 65 and such
    Oh they absolutely will make more of those, I have no doubt about that. TOS and 2409 Feds still don't have one, and they might do one for Jem'Hadar too but that's less certain. My guess would be that when the TOS Recruitment rerun happens they'll release a TOS Legendary Boost Bundle with a Legendary Miranda.
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  • bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 830 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    IMO none of these bundles are worth it. Most were T5 ships that were put on lipstick and made look a little better, added a few shinies then called them "T6 Legendary". Bunch of BS IMO. These should have been updated for free or at least sold in smaller pack bundles in C store.

    I have the money and I do support the game. Last summer had the opportunity to buy a bundle but opted instead to get me 3 R&D promotional pack ships and never regretted the decision. These are substandard (except for the crossfield) and a money grab.
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  • davideightdavideight Member Posts: 458 Arc User
    Cryptic has stated many times in the past that the reason why they focus on bundles is because single ships have historically never sold well, while bundles, of pretty much any type, have always sold better.

    As the above posters mention, they aren't going to stop doing something that makes them more money... especially when their data shows more people want this then ships by themselves.


    yeah mathematecally they sell better, cause i have to pay the ship i want, and one i dont want - yeah market-logic i know. i wont buy anything where i have to double price for sth i actually never wanted.

    its different if you make a 10 ships pack and i dont like like 2 of them, but those 2/4 bundles where 1-3 ships are useless JUNK i have to pay 2x /3x the price to get the one ship i wanted.

    i didnt buy the leg ambassador, though i liked it, cause it came with 3 ships i didnt like - and i dont buy this cause its 50% junk - i didnt buy the other leg packs cause they were full of junk tokens, that doubled the price.


    its not that sthose ships dont "sell well" they just cant milk 100dollar out of a single desired ships that way. THATS the explanation.
    It keeps the majority of players away from having ships and soon the game will be empty, cause they only feed the big buyers.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    davideight wrote: »
    It keeps the majority of players away from having ships and soon the game will be empty, cause they only feed the big buyers.

    It is completely fine to ask for things you want. But it is not fine to make up facts to support your argument. You have absolutely 0 sales data on the % of the players that buy these packs, or any breakdown between the sales numbers on individual ships VS packs.

    Anecdotal evidence is fine, as long as you don't try to use it to represent anyone beyond yourself. Personally, I would have bought the legendary Ambassador and Excelsior if they were sold outside of the bundle, but because I did not want the other items I didn't buy the pack. That's my personal experience, and it's valid. But I cannot pretend or assume that it represents any specific percent of the playerbase.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited August 2021

    and people get that too.

    TBH, I think many don't. I think many people fully believe the example argument I quoted that "if they just sold them individually they would make more money". I think many people think Cryptic(or their marketing team) somehow just doesn't "get it", when the reality is that their sales strategy is based on lots of market research and data that actually proves it is more profitable than what any specific person may prefer.

    but we can still ask for it.

    I completely agree and would never suggest otherwise. People have every right to ask for things to be done the way they prefer. And everyone else has every right to agree, disagree, etc.


    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 4,754 Arc User
    I agree with the OP.

    Let players buy what they want, instead of giving them an option to buy what they want at far higher prices because they get stuff they're not interested in with it.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    davideight wrote: »
    Cryptic has stated many times in the past that the reason why they focus on bundles is because single ships have historically never sold well, while bundles, of pretty much any type, have always sold better.

    As the above posters mention, they aren't going to stop doing something that makes them more money... especially when their data shows more people want this then ships by themselves.


    yeah mathematecally they sell better, cause i have to pay the ship i want, and one i dont want - yeah market-logic i know. i wont buy anything where i have to double price for sth i actually never wanted.

    its different if you make a 10 ships pack and i dont like like 2 of them, but those 2/4 bundles where 1-3 ships are useless JUNK i have to pay 2x /3x the price to get the one ship i wanted.

    i didnt buy the leg ambassador, though i liked it, cause it came with 3 ships i didnt like - and i dont buy this cause its 50% junk - i didnt buy the other leg packs cause they were full of junk tokens, that doubled the price.


    its not that sthose ships dont "sell well" they just cant milk 100dollar out of a single desired ships that way. THATS the explanation.
    It keeps the majority of players away from having ships and soon the game will be empty, cause they only feed the big buyers.

    There are plenty of bundles going all the way back to the T5 days where the ships have been available both individually AND in a bundle, so they have tons of data from those ships to know which method sells better. It doesn't matter what you or I prefer, Cryptic will always go for the business model that produces the most sales.
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    You can still buy a "regular" warbird for $24 on sale. Special ships cost special monies, like $250 for a promo pack or lock box ship outside of Mudd's bundles.

    A la carte legendary ships would be nice, but they'd still be $50-100+ each on sale. You're not going to get a T6 TOS Connie for $30 any year soon. Aside from getting one free for a single character from the event campaign if you choose.



  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    You can still buy a "regular" warbird for $24 on sale. Special ships cost special monies, like $250 for a promo pack or lock box ship outside of Mudd's bundles.

    A la carte legendary ships would be nice, but they'd still be $50-100+ each on sale. You're not going to get a T6 TOS Connie for $30 any year soon. Aside from getting one free for a single character from the event campaign if you choose.



    Yeah, this is important. All "legendary" ships are not equal. An account unlock of something that is otherwise only available from a lockbox/promo pack is a more valuable than something that is just a slightly upgraded version of what you can already get in the C-store for 30 bucks.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    davideight wrote: »
    Cryptic has stated many times in the past that the reason why they focus on bundles is because single ships have historically never sold well, while bundles, of pretty much any type, have always sold better.

    As the above posters mention, they aren't going to stop doing something that makes them more money... especially when their data shows more people want this then ships by themselves.


    yeah mathematecally they sell better, cause i have to pay the ship i want, and one i dont want - yeah market-logic i know. i wont buy anything where i have to double price for sth i actually never wanted.

    its different if you make a 10 ships pack and i dont like like 2 of them, but those 2/4 bundles where 1-3 ships are useless JUNK i have to pay 2x /3x the price to get the one ship i wanted.

    i didnt buy the leg ambassador, though i liked it, cause it came with 3 ships i didnt like - and i dont buy this cause its 50% junk - i didnt buy the other leg packs cause they were full of junk tokens, that doubled the price.


    its not that sthose ships dont "sell well" they just cant milk 100dollar out of a single desired ships that way. THATS the explanation.
    It keeps the majority of players away from having ships and soon the game will be empty, cause they only feed the big buyers.

    There are plenty of bundles going all the way back to the T5 days where the ships have been available both individually AND in a bundle, so they have tons of data from those ships to know which method sells better. It doesn't matter what you or I prefer, Cryptic will always go for the business model that produces the most sales.

    I would like to know these mysterious numbers. How many players buy these bundles, and how many players would have buy a single ship? Cryptic doesn't have currently a reasonable way of making money; they just want instant money without a long-term vision. this is why they try to sell bundles after bundles after bundles.
    when you have reached level 65, your ship worth nothing, because you have nothing to do with her. I don't understand why players keep buying ships.
    As i write these lines one of my characters stands in front the bank console on new romulus, because i don't know what to do in game.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    davideight wrote: »
    Cryptic has stated many times in the past that the reason why they focus on bundles is because single ships have historically never sold well, while bundles, of pretty much any type, have always sold better.

    As the above posters mention, they aren't going to stop doing something that makes them more money... especially when their data shows more people want this then ships by themselves.


    yeah mathematecally they sell better, cause i have to pay the ship i want, and one i dont want - yeah market-logic i know. i wont buy anything where i have to double price for sth i actually never wanted.

    its different if you make a 10 ships pack and i dont like like 2 of them, but those 2/4 bundles where 1-3 ships are useless JUNK i have to pay 2x /3x the price to get the one ship i wanted.

    i didnt buy the leg ambassador, though i liked it, cause it came with 3 ships i didnt like - and i dont buy this cause its 50% junk - i didnt buy the other leg packs cause they were full of junk tokens, that doubled the price.


    its not that sthose ships dont "sell well" they just cant milk 100dollar out of a single desired ships that way. THATS the explanation.
    It keeps the majority of players away from having ships and soon the game will be empty, cause they only feed the big buyers.

    There are plenty of bundles going all the way back to the T5 days where the ships have been available both individually AND in a bundle, so they have tons of data from those ships to know which method sells better. It doesn't matter what you or I prefer, Cryptic will always go for the business model that produces the most sales.

    I would like to know these mysterious numbers. How many players buy these bundles, and how many players would have buy a single ship? Cryptic doesn't have currently a reasonable way of making money; they just want instant money without a long-term vision. this is why they try to sell bundles after bundles after bundles.
    when you have reached level 65, your ship worth nothing, because you have nothing to do with her. I don't understand why players keep buying ships.
    As i write these lines one of my characters stands in front the bank console on new romulus, because i don't know what to do in game.

    As someone who has played since beta (2008) I totally get where you are coming from. I've got all the ships I actually want, and have found whenever some new ship happens to peak my interest and I buy it, it's not long before I revert back to the classics I really love.

    So why do I keep playing? It's a combination of this being the only Trek MMO, habit, time/money investment, and actually enjoying the game itself. I actually enjoy going back and replaying episodes (some I don't, but most) with different themed crews and ships.

    My advice to you: if you are bored and don't know what to do, play whatever mission/TFO you can't remember the last time you played it (with the one exception of it being something you absolutely hate). But playing something you haven't played in a long time can be pretty fun.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • doctorstegidoctorstegi Member Posts: 1,181 Arc User
    Sure, I would love to be able to buy legendary ships individually. And that's exactly why Cryptic isn't going to do that. Here is a post I made yesterday:

    Regarding the pack pricing:

    1: I absolutely know the total value of the combined items in the pack will technically justify the price point.

    2: Many many many many many many many many many many people only want the ships, not the extra items.

    3: Cryptic is well aware of point 2 above, and uses the extra items to justify charging a higher price than if they were only selling the ships.

    It's a pretty simple and obvious situation. If it were NOT simply about being able to charge a higher price, they would offer an option with just the ships. But because they know the vast majority of people would buy the cheaper option (which would mean less profit) they don't give that choice. It's all or nothing.

    PS: just to clarify, I'm not saying any of the above is right/wrong/etc. I'm just describing the situation as it is.

    I'd also like to add this:

    I know people may think "yeah, but if you would sell the ships individually you would actually more because you would have significantly more people spending money VS a smaller amount of people buying the big bundle". Or to put it another way: if 1,000 people spend $5 each you are making more than if 100 people spend $20 each. And that's true in theory.

    But here is the reality: Cryptic actually has market research. They aren't just guessing about the figures I mentioned in the above example. If their data actually showed them they would make more money selling the ships individually they would absolutely do it. They absolutely WANT to take whatever path results in the most profit.

    So, the fact that they are selling the ships bundled means their data proves it is the most profitable way. And, let's just be real here; that data means a hell of a lot more than a person saying "yeah but please" on a message board.

    Most people who love the Romulans want both ships. So packing it in a bundle and save the buyer some money that way sure gets more sales. However I could live without the bloatware in those bundles or at least give a discount for people who already own stuff which they throw in. Its a slap in the face for people who bout the Legacy of Romulus Pack because some of the stuff they throw in here you already got with that pack and they know it.

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  • jozen#9312 jozen Member Posts: 102 Arc User
    Sure, I would love to be able to buy legendary ships individually. And that's exactly why Cryptic isn't going to do that. Here is a post I made yesterday:

    Regarding the pack pricing:

    1: I absolutely know the total value of the combined items in the pack will technically justify the price point.

    2: Many many many many many many many many many many people only want the ships, not the extra items.

    3: Cryptic is well aware of point 2 above, and uses the extra items to justify charging a higher price than if they were only selling the ships.

    It's a pretty simple and obvious situation. If it were NOT simply about being able to charge a higher price, they would offer an option with just the ships. But because they know the vast majority of people would buy the cheaper option (which would mean less profit) they don't give that choice. It's all or nothing.

    PS: just to clarify, I'm not saying any of the above is right/wrong/etc. I'm just describing the situation as it is.

    I'd also like to add this:

    I know people may think "yeah, but if you would sell the ships individually you would actually more because you would have significantly more people spending money VS a smaller amount of people buying the big bundle". Or to put it another way: if 1,000 people spend $5 each you are making more than if 100 people spend $20 each. And that's true in theory.

    But here is the reality: Cryptic actually has market research. They aren't just guessing about the figures I mentioned in the above example. If their data actually showed them they would make more money selling the ships individually they would absolutely do it. They absolutely WANT to take whatever path results in the most profit.

    So, the fact that they are selling the ships bundled means their data proves it is the most profitable way. And, let's just be real here; that data means a hell of a lot more than a person saying "yeah but please" on a message board.

    Congratulations. You just defined the problems that capitalism has in a closed economy or monopoly. No competition means unrestrained demand for profit. Good little Ferengi they be
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    edited August 2021
    davideight wrote: »
    i dont have spare 100eds of Dollars - id buy one ships, but i wont buy one ship, and one i didnt even want, together.

    And they have said bundles sell generally better than ships, the issue here however is some can't afford 120.00 at one time so that I understand. And there is a VERY easy solution to this as I offered an idea below, without destroying the appeal to the larger bundle.

    Still I think they'd sell more making two smaller bundles for sure, as people could have a choice to buy one. And they may also later then decide to get the other. I mean the Mirror bundle is popular price point for many, so why not mix up the current offering a bit? Buy as is if you want the 100% off T6 coupon, or if you don't need it consider these two alternatives separate...

    There are people who want to support Cryptic, but 12000 ZEN is a lot at one time even with the 35% off.

    I think it open it up to a lot more people, for those on bite sized budgets!

    6000 ZEN (Normal Price) - Reman Legendary Bundle
    1. [T6] Legendary Scimitar Intel Dreadnought Warbird
    2. 1 Experimental Ship Upgrade Tokens (Account-Unlock)
    3. 1 Ship Slots (to Character who purchased bundle)
    4. 1 Infinity Promo Romulan Survivor Duty Officer Packs (To Captain who purchased bundle)
    5. Reman Uniform (Account-Unlock for Reman Bridge Officers or Captain)
    6. Reman Species (Account-Unlock)
    7. 25 Duty Officer (Claimable by every Character) --may or may not even choose to offer this?

    OR

    6000 ZEN (Normal Price) - Romulan Legendary MW Bundle
    1. [T6] Legendary D'deridex Miracle Worker Warbird Battlecruiser
    2. 1 Experimental Ship Upgrade Tokens (Account-Unlock)
    3. 1 Ship Slots (to Character who purchased Bundle)
    4. 1 Promo Romulan Survivor Duty Officer Packs (To Character who purchased Bundle)
    5. TOS Era Romulan Uniform (Account-Unlock for Romulan Bridge Officers or Captain)
    6. TNG Era Romulan Uniform (Account-Unlock for Romulan Bridge Officers or Captain)

    NOTE: Since the D'deridex is Miracle worker you gain extra Ship console slot, while the Reman Legendary bundle offers 25 (Duty Officers Claimable by every Captain) for example.
    ╘ You'd loose out on a 100% off CSTORE (bonus) coupon, & 1 Infinity Promo Romulan DOFF Pack!
    ╘ Yet (maybe) gain 25 DOFF claimable for all to give a choice, or they may not even offer this...

    Still encourage many to consider the larger bundle, yet offer a slightly lower price point for those who can't spend 12,000 ZEN at one time. It also give flexiblity on the add-ons depending what people may need or want.

    @ambassadorkael#6946
    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 2,952 Arc User
    dude...regardless of what they have said, why cant you just offer your personal take on it? either for or against?
    Because that doesn't matter, and is a waste of my time, your time, and everyone elses time.

    I personally love the idea of Cryptic developing some sort of narrative based, procedurally generated, exploration system, as a new end game content system. But I also recognize that such a thing is beyond anyone to make, as narrative procedural generation hasn't come that far. I could spend all day talking about how cool it would be if the game had it, but that doesn't offer up anything of substantive discourse for the devs to follow through with.

    While it can be helpful to remind people what Cryptic said about various things on a live stream, without offering your personal likes and dislikes this can create the illusion that you don't have an opinion of your own, and can come across as kind of prematurely squashing or dismissing any discussion that may be important to other folks.

    It's like the current ground patrols thread where you mentioned what Cryptic may have said about ground content but also offer your own opinion on the same. This can go a long way in achieving a balanced response that encourages some discussion and acknowledges things that may be important to other people so perhaps isn't necessarily a waste of time.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    strathkin wrote: »
    davideight wrote: »
    i dont have spare 100eds of Dollars - id buy one ships, but i wont buy one ship, and one i didnt even want, together.

    And they have said bundles sell generally better than ships, the issue here however is some can't afford 120.00 at one time so that I understand. And there is a VERY easy solution to this as I offered an idea below, without destroying the appeal to the larger bundle.

    Still I think they'd sell more making two smaller bundles for sure, as people could have a choice to buy one. And they may also later then decide to get the other. I mean the Mirror bundle is popular price point for many, so why not mix up the current offering a bit? Buy as is if you want the 100% off T6 coupon, or if you don't need it consider these two alternatives separate...

    There are people who want to support Cryptic, but 12000 ZEN is a lot at one time even with the 35% off.

    I think it open it up to a lot more people, for those on bite sized budgets!

    6000 ZEN
    1. [T6] Legendary Scimitar Intel Dreadnought Warbird
    2. 1 Experimental Ship Upgrade Tokens (Account-Unlock)
    3. 1 Ship Slots (to Character who purchased bundle)
    4. 1 Infinity Promo Romulan Survivor Duty Officer Packs (To Captain who purchased bundle)
    5. Reman Uniform (Account-Unlock for Reman Bridge Officers or Captain)
    6. Reman Species (Account-Unlock)
    7. 25 Duty Officer (Claimable by every Character)

    OR

    6000 ZEN
    1. [T6] Legendary D'deridex Miracle Worker Warbird Battlecruiser
    2. 1 Experimental Ship Upgrade Tokens (Account-Unlock)
    3. 1 Ship Slots (to Character who purchased Bundle)
    4. 1 Promo Romulan Survivor Duty Officer Packs (To Character who purchased Bundle)
    5. TOS Era Romulan Uniform (Account-Unlock for Romulan Bridge Officers or Captain)
    6. TNG Era Romulan Uniform (Account-Unlock for Romulan Bridge Officers or Captain)

    NOTE: Since the D'deridex is Miracle worker you gain the extra Ship slot, while the Reman Legendary bundle offers 25 (Duty Officers (Claimable by every Captain) for example.
    ╘ You'd loose out on the 100% off CSTORE (bonus) coupon, yet gain 25 DOFF claimable for all.

    Still encourage many to consider the larger bundle, yet offer a slightly lower price point for those who can't spend 12,000 ZEN at one time. It also give flexiblity on the add-ons depending what people may need or want too.

    @ambassadorkael#6946

    This is a great idea, assuming you mean ~$60 on sale / ~$90 list.

    Cryptic gets their $60 and a player gets the one ship they really want. Those who are more into Romulan captains get both ships for $80 on sale.
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,593 Arc User
    edited August 2021
    So the Scimitar gets the engineering seat bumped to lcdr from lt and split with command, the cdr tac is split with intel, the sci seat goes universal. the consoles get an extra engineering.
    Turn rate goes from 7 to 7.5 inertia from 20 to 30 weapons power gets an extra +5. tempting but since I have zero interest in the D'Derp (Thanks, Rattler, I stole it) this bundle is a hard pass. now if they had increased the D'Derp's maneuverability to say 7, it might interest me more
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  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,666 Bug Hunter
    edited August 2021
    Slight change above, and I meant 6000 (Normal Price) same as Mirror!
    https://sto.fandom.com/wiki/Mirror_Universe_Bundle

    NOTE: Since the D'deridex is Miracle worker you gain extra Ship console slot, while the Reman Legendary bundle offers 25 (Duty Officers Claimable by every Captain) for example.
    ╘ You'd loose out on a 100% off CSTORE (bonus) coupon, & 1 Infinity Promo Romulan DOFF Pack!
    ╘ Yet maybe gain 25 DOFF claimable for all, or they may not even offer this...

    Those two losses easily justify the 25 Duty Officer bonus for each Captain. I mean most should want the Infinity Romulan Surivivor Pack & the 100% off T6 Coupon for sure! So consider the larger bundle if you can, as they always add new T6 ships!

    This just a suggestion to offer two 6000 ZEN bundles, or the best at 12000 ZEN; which is out of reach for some.

    Will they do it however, can't say, just might encourage more to try it out. o:)
    Post edited by strathkin on
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