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What if the Borg got serious?

midwayacemidwayace Member Posts: 146 Arc User
The Borg used to be the most fearsome enemy in STO. It used to take at least an hour to complete a Borg TFO. Now I kid you not in 8-10 seconds a Borg ISA can be completed. People are bored with the Borg. So......

What would happen if the Borg went and assimilated the Tholian Assembly? The DEV's would have an opportunity to create a Elite Borg series for the end game community. This would give the players a much more difficult Borg opponent. The Borg adapt and overcome their opponents. This would actually make sense because of the temporal war with the Federation. It would also be a great opportunity to create new content for the players. It's time to bring back the nodes from the original Borg missions. Call it "Borg Resurgence". Taking on the Borg should bring a sense of panic.
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Comments

  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,431 Arc User
    It's not beyond the realm of possibility of the Borg encountering and somehow adapting to and ultimately assimilating technologies advanced enough to become a new threat. But it would have to come from a species that hasn't been encountered before by any of the existing races in Star Trek. Everything and everyone else is either a known variable to the Borg and offer nothing 'new' for them to add to the collective, or are way beyond the Borg's ability to handle, which greatly limits their ability to adapt and assimilate.

    Of course, that could turn it into a story arc, the Borg suddenly returning with a vengeance, more powerful than ever, and the allied races have to scramble to figure out where their new-found power came from and how to counter it. That, in turn, could lead to an Iconian-style story arc (or arcs) of discovering said new race, and so forth. Whether it would be interesting, on the other hand, that's subjective.
  • ucgsquawk#5883 ucgsquawk Member Posts: 265 Arc User
    There are also unexplored temporal shenanigans by the Borg that have been left open.
    There was that one world in the alpha quadrant that we find parts of Borg ships where they had never been known to reach as well as evidence of temporal events.

    Who knows what they were up to.
  • danquellerdanqueller Member Posts: 496 Arc User
    edited July 30
    The Borg shouldn't be that powerful at this point.

    The whole arc of the Borg from TNG through VOY was a testament to the Federation's ability to overcome any obstacle. What started off as an unassailable threat in TNG eventually become something that could be defeated in VOY. The Borg may adapt, but the Federation truly innovates, and thinks outside the box, allowing them to overcome even the Borg.

    Not only that but the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Republic, The Dominion, the Delta Alliance, and many others, including former Borg have come together as one. They have pooled manpower, resources, and technology, into one grand Alliance that unites most of the galaxy. The Alliance possesses far more then the Borg ever did, and faced threats even greater then the Borg like the Iconians, and Temporal Liberation Front.

    The Borg not being the apex anymore is just a natural evolution of the narrative. Trying to put them back there is just ignoring the story to try to keep fan dreams of the Borg alive.

    Also, we kidna kicked the Tholian's crystal butts already. The Borg assimilating them isn't going to put them back on top.


    That's not an accurate assessment of the Borg threat.

    The Borg as seen in 'Q-Who' and 'Best of Both Worlds' were the original concept, that of a machine culture that found individual intelligence as foreign a concept as humans did a collective mind. It was an ancient threat that cared not at all about losses except as a resources spent/resources gained balance value, and had the ability to learn and adapt quicker than Humanity (to which that ability had always been attributed as being their superior quality). It didn't even think of other life except as how it could service and maintain the Borg.

    But, in doing so, the writers realized several things. First, as related by Gianan, the Borg didn't hesitate or do anything halfway, but swarmed an opponent and either failed to try again, or succeeded and left only ruin in their path. They had the resources the Federation could only guess at, and technology beyond that which the Federation could muster. To quote Q: "You can't outrun them, you can't destroy them. If you damage them, the essence of what they are remains. They regenerate and keep coming. Eventually, you will weaken, your reserves will be gone. They are relentless." In short, the Borg were a threat the Federation could not beat. Ever. Only hold off or make so costly a fight that the Borg looked elsewhere.

    Second, the Borg represented the greatest fears of Humanity in a physical, real form. The loss of one's mind. The surrendering of individual will to the will of the masses. The loss of control over the technology Humans developed. The reliance upon that technology to continue to exist. The unstoppable force made manifest and coming for you. The Borg, rightfully, scared the viewers of Star Trek in a way no other threat could, on a level both conscious and unconscious, and presented the possible darkest future of our race in direct contrast to the ever-hopeful one the Federation was meant to represent.

    Third, the Borg were the first truly alien race in Star Trek that wasn't effectively an inanimate object. The very concept of how a collective mind would think, what it would experience, and how we as individuals could relate to them was a very, very difficult thing for most people to be confronted with, let alone deal with. It required real imagination and understanding of that kind of alien perspective that most people simply aren't equipped to deal with. Including script writers and television producers.

    So, what was the solution to all of these issues to the producers? Get rid of all of that.

    First, they introduced Hugh, a Borg that could become our friend, and could think like us. That made the big, bad Collective just another group of Individuals, not this megalithic entity that had no common framework for the audience to relate to. It also gave an opening for the Federation to think they could 'rehabilitate' the Borg and make them just like us, curing them of their alieness and making the audience feel better.

    Second, they introduced the Borg Queen, a way to state that 'all of this was just the work of another power-seeking villain who can be beat to end the threat', and put a Human face onto the enemy. Here was the same kind of evil individual audiences and writers had been dealing with since literature began, and not the unknown evil that could not be talked to, only resisted.

    Third, they introduced Seven of Nine, our 'rehabilitated and friendly' Borg who would make the Borg attractive and show the viewers that the Borg could be just another Klingon-of-the-Week, and not something truly unknowable and unbeatable. No, here was a Borg that people would laugh, cry, and fight alongside as though it were just another crewperson. A Borg just like everyone else.

    Finally, they introduced Species 8472 to prove that the Borg weren't unstoppable by extraordinary means, but could be beat with only mortal weapons and enough firepower. The Borg's ability to learn was removed. Their ability to adapt was removed. Their ability to regenerate was removed. And voila....just another Klingon of the Week villain. Not a galactic threat, but just another hyped-up want-to-be conqueror race that could be beaten by a single ship and a captain with a brain.

    So....no, the Federation didn't overcome the Borg. The writers for the series (who conveniently kept ignoring what had been written about the Borg previously) did a Deus Ex Machina to change the entire concept of the Borg because they realized the Borg were such a threat that full-scale war and galactic devastation would be the only path that could result from what they had set into motion, the Federation and all other Beta Sector races would be locked in that war for any foreseeable future, the Borg scared their audience, and the people making Star Trek did not want something that wasn't simple and easy to write about. The writers changed the Borg completely to make them relatable and beatable without the work to explain any of it in the face of what they had previously stated as fact about the Borg.

    After all, how successful has the Federation been in opposing the Q? And the Borg worry -them-.

    To answer the original question, consider the Borg under the Borg Queen to be just a splinter group that the Collective has set out as a distraction/deception to test the Alpha and Beta Quadrants while they deal with other issues on the far side of the Delta Quadrant. When they decide their equations have reached a certain threshold to 'get serious', then they will conduct their true assault, acting as Gianan warned Picard they would. And the Alpha and Beta quadrants will be locked into a life or assimilated death struggle as worlds are added to the Borg's strength and the races of known space realize the Iconian War was not the worst possible conflict they could face. And when the construction of Doomsday Machines becomes a thinkable option.

    Then again, perhaps the Borg calculations will never reach that point, and the Federation and other empires will continue to be more costly to fully assimilate than to simply probe with expendable resources that cost the Collective next to nothing.

    That's my view of what such a 'get serious' moment would bring from the Borg.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 3,750 Arc User
    There are also unexplored temporal shenanigans by the Borg that have been left open.
    There was that one world in the alpha quadrant that we find parts of Borg ships where they had never been known to reach as well as evidence of temporal events.

    Who knows what they were up to.

    One thing they could do if they wanted to open up the First Federation as an extended battlezone or whatever (possibly as part of the next big campaign) would be to have that activity directed at the ancient First Federation, either assimilating part of it back in their heyday to get some of the unique tech they had, or possibly to try and assimilate something extremely dangerous that the "Fesarians" ran into back then and barely contained.

    That could explain the deadly picket devices and high amount of paranoia they displayed in The Corbomite Maneuver even though it is obvious from the way Balok acts at the end that their culture is probably not one that would give rise to that kind of paranoia normally.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,631 Community Moderator
    As of right now the only way the Borg would be a major threat again is if they zerg rushed cubes into the Alpha Quadrant. The problem is as stated earlier in thread, the rest of the galaxy has "adapted" to the Borg, with the Federation leading the way. The Borg do not innovate. They assimilate. That means that the only way for them to get stronger is to take from others. Sure they could try to overwhelm with superior numbers, but they don't use tactics. Their strategy is literally just snowplow.

    The rest of the galaxy has caught up to them, and the Borg have taken massive hits since Voyager. More battles with the Undine, the Vaadwaur hammering them, the Cooperative liberating entire ships...

    The Collective is not the galaxy ending threat it once was. They are still a threat, but they aren't a major one anymore.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,598 Arc User
    I still want more Assimilated Voth. Phase Cloaking Borg vessels with improved Reactive Immunity Matrices and ground forces enhanced with bio-mechanical dinosaurs that are further genetically augmented by whatever biological manipulation assimilated Undine would bring.
  • danquellerdanqueller Member Posts: 496 Arc User
    danqueller wrote: »
    snip
    The problem with the Borg, as they were originally conceived, is that they run into what I like to call the "Brainiac problem"

    Brainiac, at least in the DCAU, was a character who went around the universe collecting all information on worlds, using armies of robotic duplicates... and then blew them up for no reason. He was written this way because, if he didn't blow up worlds for no reason, he really wouldn't be a "threat". When dealing with a being as advanced as he was, there is no reason for him to simply not just leave a probe over a planet to keep collecting information about it. Almost no one could really even DO anything about it anyways. Him blowing up the planets after he was done collecting all the information about them was just a nonsensical narrative fiat introduced to give the heroes some reason to fight him, when his actual mission realistically wouldn't necessitate it.

    The Borg, as they were originally introduced, where horrible villains for pretty much this reason. The Borg, as originally shown, had no care for the organic aspect of the races they encountered, only the technological one. However, with the giant technological gap between the everyone else, and the Borg, the Borg had nothing to fear from anyone, and thus logically never had any reason to attack anyone. They could just come in, forcibly take any information they wanted, and then just leave, without needing to actually harm anyone.

    The later retcons of the Borg into what we now see them as was done because they original design for the Borg was, honestly, quite bad, and logically didn't make them have any reason to be a real threat.

    As for the rest of your post. If you are going to make up a species like the Borg, one that assimilates life, you must fundamentally deal with the narrative question of "if their humanity can be taken away, can it be given back?". Not doing so is just poor writing because its ignoring what would be a question "in universe", and something any group would try if fighting the Borg in a normal war is impossible. After all, you don't have to fight something that is no longer your enemy. The introduction of characters like Hugh, and Seven of Nine, gave the Borg a depth they lacked before. It created moral questions about killing something that you could possibly save. Rather then leaving them as flat, one dimensional, enemies, where the only option is to kill them, and you don't have to think about doing so.

    The introduction of Species 8472 didn't remove the Borg's ability to learn, or adapt. It simply introduced a logical enemy for the Borg that was so advanced and powerful that the Borg's normal adaption methods couldn't work against them. Until you reach the level of ascendant beings like the Q, there is always a greater force in the universe. It makes sense that the Borg, in their ever expanding reach, would eventually run into something like that.

    Also, the Borg Queen didn't make the Borg, or decide the Borg's overall goals. She isn't responsible for the Borg, she just processed the Borg's goals into the most efficient path possible. It wasn't just all the work of the Queen, she Queen is as much of a slave to the Borg's overall will as a normal drone is.

    The Borg, as they were originally, relied to much on the HP Lovecraft school of writing, where you get out of actually having to write by simply going "you can't understand", or "you can't fight it at all", for any antagonistic force. That isn't good writing, its just a cop out, and the original design for the Borg was just that, a cop out. One that didn't even make much sense in the first place.

    I would have to disagree with you in the original concept of the Borg being bad. Quite the opposite. They were, as Q noted, completely different from any other opposition the Federation (or any other main organization we were familiar with) had encountered. Their motivations didn't revolve around concepts typically understood as such by Humans, but upon those of a collective mind completely removed from individuality. Their actions were those that involved the Borg as a whole rather than any considerations of the individual, with the individual only considered as a source of new knowledge (which, as you said, they would take without concern for opposition or denial...subjects the Borg considered irrelevant).

    Perhaps from the standpoint of a TV show that needed a villain, you would be correct. Can you really hate a hurricane or an earthquake? The Borg were a force of nature, the ultimate results of mistakes in technology and groupthought from many centuries before, and their very nature precluded individual opposition or blame. The Borg didn't feel anything anymore, and had no moral basis, anymore than a computer does. That doesn't make for good TV villains, who the writers want to generate a reaction of denial and rejection towards from the audience. But the Borg weren't, as stated, the same as the 'villains' who came before. They were a fundamental threat, rather than a personal one.

    So, your conclusion that the Borg could come in, forcibly take the technology of a civilization and not harm the inhabitants is somewhat correct, if the Borg were also not intent on gaining the information held by the civilization, which is never contained entirely in computer systems and technology. For that, you need the ones who built and develop the technology, so incorporating those into your own acquisition of a culture's technology makes prefect sense. It isn't done maliciously or through any desire to dominate, but simply because that is how you gain -all- the knowledge of a culture you wish to learn from. That it causes harm to the individuals (who have no intrinsic worth outside their knowledge) or civilization (which is of no import once the Borg have all that can be gained from them) is simply not something that enters into the equation, and the Borg would have as much concern for harm or not as a person walking across a sidewalk concerns themselves with how many insects they step on to get where they are going (unless one of those insects has something of interest...in which case they are imprisoned or impaled on a board for study and display).

    I agree the issue of if a Borg can be converted back is something that is going to occur to anyone facing them, but it is also not addressed realistically at any time in the show. A Borg is not an individual, and separating them from the Collective should have the same effect as separating a robotic arm from an assembly line. You end up with something with all the physical capabilities of a person, but no mind. Further, any mind that has actually held onto any form of individuality after having been part of the Collective for any period of time would be insane, the constant, unending presence of billions of minds and voices that you can't shut out grinding away any of what 'normal' people would understand as rational thought. That doesn't even go into removal of the Borg cybernetics, which have been shown to be permanent even by the highest technology the Federation possesses. So, no....the actual result of any attempt to 'rehabilitate' a Borg should have been either a very lengthy (decades) process of stabilizing the mind and instructing it not to damage those around it, or a simple acceptance that there is no return from what is essentially death in walking form.

    In the most realistic sense, it would simply be impossible to fight the Borg by rehabilitation, as the moment the Collective decided a threat existed, it would eliminate that threat by cutting communication to the Borg in question and quarantining any affected systems almost instantly (as our own computer systems do today). They would then adapt to the vector of attack, eliminate it, and continue on. So, the only course again is resistance, or evasion (as Gianan's people did).

    I also disagree that the Borg lacked depth before the introduction of Hugh or Seven of Nine. They lacked -humanity-, which is not the same thing as depth. Perhaps they were not as simply understood or related to, but that has nothing to do with them lacking ways of thinking or doing things that didn't bear out discovery. Rather, in introducing those characters (along with the Borg Queen), they eroded depth by changing the Borg into just any other race we've seen before, rather than one that must be understood and dealt with in a completely different way. Of course, we are talking about TV shows, publishers, and media managers, all of who only care about how much money a product from the artist or writer is making them, and how they can reduce the workload, so it's not surprising these changes were made.

    Species 8472 was not more advanced or powerful than the Borg. The sole reason that was stated for their success was that the Borg could not assimilate them, and thus could not gain the knowledge of their individuals as the Borg could other species. Realistically, the Borg should have just adapted as quickly as they did to the Federation and wiped them out, but the writers again ignored what had been stated and demonstrated before about them, and gave Species 8472 also immunity from being adapted to. So, the Borg can't assimilate and can't adapt...their primary means of dealing with opposition, and setting the situation the writers wanted where the main characters could force a bargain against the Borg that should never have been required except for writers Deus Ex Machina (again).

    Finally, look at how the Borg Queen is portrayed. She orders, they obey. That isn't the behavior of a subservient or cooperative entity, but one who is directing and controlling others. Never once is she made to accept other Borg's directives, nor does she question the Collective for direction...she is written and portrayed no different than any other 'evil leader', and that is probably the real shame in all of the retcon of the Borg. She does not act different from any other person. She does not speak any differently than any other person. She, in fact, is never more than an evil human controlling the masses. Nothing she says, does, or embodies is anything other than an individual exercising power, the ultimate contradiction of what the Borg are stated as being.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,552 Arc User
    There are also unexplored temporal shenanigans by the Borg that have been left open.
    There was that one world in the alpha quadrant that we find parts of Borg ships where they had never been known to reach as well as evidence of temporal events.

    Who knows what they were up to.
    Those were, of course, remnants of the Third Borg Dynasty... :smile:
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 1,431 Arc User
    edited July 30
    danqueller wrote: »
    Finally, look at how the Borg Queen is portrayed. She orders, they obey. That isn't the behavior of a subservient or cooperative entity, but one who is directing and controlling others. Never once is she made to accept other Borg's directives, nor does she question the Collective for direction...she is written and portrayed no different than any other 'evil leader', and that is probably the real shame in all of the retcon of the Borg. She does not act different from any other person. She does not speak any differently than any other person. She, in fact, is never more than an evil human controlling the masses. Nothing she says, does, or embodies is anything other than an individual exercising power, the ultimate contradiction of what the Borg are stated as being.

    I tend to agree. The moment they introduced the Borg Queen, the Borg collective lost all credibility as the threat they were once presented as being. It was not a collective, just a dominated group by a single power-crazed individual, like every other group or society, slaves to the will of a ruthless dictator who got off on the chaos and slaughter.

    The original 'less defined' version of the Borg were infinitely more interesting than what they were kneecapped into being.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,285 Arc User
    edited July 30
    If we're talking the STO-Borg here, it's too late for them to get serious IMO. What they were and still are doing in STO seems way too random. They're not acting as one collective but several collective bubbles that chase objectives barely related to one another.

    Like what exactly are they going for on Defera, other than making the Deferi call out for help so players have a borg-shooter-zone?

    If they were serious they'd have used their idiotic temporal shenanigans to travel to a point in time where the federation either didn't exist yet or is at its weakest (like right after the Dominion-war would have been the PERFECT moment for them to invade the alpha and beta quadrants). Closest we got to see something going into that direction was in the iconian arc, when the alliance ran simulations of timeline-alterations...

    Personally, I liked the Borg as shown in 'Q Who' the best. You really got the impression there'd be no way of defeating them in an actual battle unless you could immediately overpower them.

    But alas, the writers kept changing the rules with every subsequent Borg-episodes, to the point where the Borg went from actually terrifying to laughable.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,631 Community Moderator
    Uh... why was I quoted? lol
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,631 Community Moderator
    Could have had a quote from me embedded in there. Could be some old saved text in the box.
    Who knows. Forums be weird sometimes.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • midwayacemidwayace Member Posts: 146 Arc User
    Sigh... Why does everyone assume that Borg have to be humanoids? Nature has hive minds (ants, bees, hornets ect...) What makes the Borg any different? What if the Borg queen was just a offshoot of Borg humanoids? This would mean that the Borg are a plague that consume technology. If they assimilated the Tholian Assembly they would be much quicker and stronger with technological enhancements. They would constantly be beaming in reinforcements and overwhelm opponents. What happens if the Borg actually are transdimensional? What happens if they assimilated the Devidans? Not all creatures are humanoids or subject to humanoids emotions. Hunger drives insects and they have no qualms about losing drones. They live to serve the colony, by the way the average ant colony has 28 queens. So who's to say that a bigger stronger Borg colony has discovered the Beta Quadrant? I proposed that there's much more to the Borg than has been shown by TV script writers.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,296 Bug Hunter
    edited July 30
    The Borg shouldn't be that powerful at this point.

    The whole arc of the Borg from TNG through VOY was a testament to the Federation's ability to overcome any obstacle. What started off as an unassailable threat in TNG eventually become something that could be defeated in VOY. The Borg may adapt, but the Federation truly innovates, and thinks outside the box, allowing them to overcome even the Borg.

    Not only that but the Federation, Klingon Empire, Romulan Republic, The Dominion, the Delta Alliance, and many others...
    ╘ Rattler identified something very similar, and I also agree too.

    Yea I mean some want to see the Borg made tougher again, granted yet honestly the vast majority of players (90%) get to 30-40k DPS and mostly plateau there...

    Well I'd welcome some new tactics by the Borg when they REDO some of the TFO's, yet honestly we over came them, and since that time our Alliance has even grown stronger! I'm just trying to represent a balanced approach, and that is often what Cryptic does as well because they realize many (85% or more) don't chase DPS. Our Alliance with the Klingons, Romulans, and now the Dominion too should make the Borg think twice about the Alpha, Beta, Delta and Gamma Quadrants for sure!

    People mostly enjoy Star Trek and just enjoy the story evolving. Which hopefully Picard will greatly expand some options in Season 2.

    <3
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  • danquellerdanqueller Member Posts: 496 Arc User
    danqueller wrote: »
    Deus Ex Machina (again)
    That isn't what the term Dues Ex Machina means. The Borg were never stated to be all knowing, or all powerful, or all adapting. That they could adapt against most things they encountered doesn't mean they had the ability to adapt against everything. Obviously they couldn't adapt to Q just hand waving them out of existence if he did so. the introduction of something beyond them... when there was already things beyond them, isn't a D.E.M. The overuse of the term Deus Ex Machina, in regards to anything someone doesn't like in a story has render it hallow, and meaningless. You do yourself no favors trying to use it here.

    You seem to misunderstand what I was saying. The term Dues Ex Machina refers to the author or scriptwriter inserting elements or changing circumstances directly to alter an outcome that otherwise would have been the logical outcome of previously established situations. In this case, the writers wanted the ability of the Voyager to enter into a bargain with the Borg, something the Borg had no reason to do. So, they inserted Species 8472, and handwaviumed them to be something that had never occurred in Trek to that time...a race the Borg could not deal with but a lone Federation crew could. Without Species 8472 (who apparently just conveniently happened to appear just when the series was nearing the end and hadn't been seen in any capacity anywheres else the Borg did), Voyager would have never been able to do anything but be assimilated if they came to the Borg for any reason. And, except in STO, we never see Species 8472 again in any Trek media.

    For the rest, I will simply agree to disagree with your assessments of the Borg. I think we both agree on the corporate/studio reasons why they were treated the way they were, but I don't see where we will agree on the validity of them as concepts, nor how they reasonably should have been portrayed in the franchise. We both have our opinions, and as they say 'Infinite Diversity In Infinite Combinations'.

  • therealblackkaostherealblackkaos Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    It really sucks that the Borg have been stripped to almost nothing. To reduce them from a hurricane to a gentle breeze is a real lack of storytelling. I agree with those that few it was a simple lack of capable storytelling. Not everything is supposed to be “overcome”. The Borg could have found ways to not only assimilate Species 8472, but Tholians, Vaadwaur, H’urg (if they came across them) , and anyone else. That was supposed to be their intent according to Q and Guinan. The whole “we shall overcome” motif doesn’t work for me. The Borg could even use time travel to jump to points in any species time and assimilate them at their weakest. “Can’t assimilate 8472 now? Let’s time jump 10,000 years in the past and see if we can gain the algorithms to use”. “Hey, let’s go snatch up some Sphere Builder tech? Check in on them Solonae while we’re out!”. There’s stories that were and could’ve been told but instead writers caved in to “let’s make it easier”. STO has some leeway to create different timelines and aspects. But then again, that’s too much work and creativity that we haven’t seen from them in years.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,460 Arc User
    edited July 31
    Yikes, the tomes. If the Borg got serious? Like closing up all their Comedy Clubs?
    Post edited by ltminns on
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • horridpersonhorridperson Member Posts: 656 Arc User
    Good points all around on the Borg. As much as I appreciate what they were on introduction I accept there is little that can be done to return them to the existential threat they were introduced as. Always back to wrestling it's trying to reinvigorate a has been superstar who jobbed for decades. It isn't that there is no coming back it's that bending things so ridiculously to make it happen would break all of kayfabe...sorry reality. The threat presented by the borg is what is unknown. Let's use the uncharted space in the Delta quadrant between Voyager's route and an unknown tract terminating prior to hitting Dominion space. It's potentially a power base but even the the collective may have dug that up. If the Borg were ever to make a credible return they would need to encounter another unknown culture outside of the aegis of the Alliance hegemony. Maybe it could be a race that has a resource or technology that would return the Borg to supervillain status. What if the big whale tried to bite off more than it could chew? Some of the wonderwaffen synthetic aliens featured in Picard could puppet the Borg and make them better, faster, stronger. Assimilate the assimilator. The problem is the power or "magic" of the Borg as a villain was the destruction of identity. Once they became the whipping boy for Species 8472 that was done. Not only did they get pasted to showcase how badass the new big bad was we learned too much about them. Fear is also rooted in the unknown and when you kick down the pillars you might as well pack it in.
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  • horridpersonhorridperson Member Posts: 656 Arc User
    I guess where I'm going with my take is the interrelationship between our heroes and villains. Whether that be pulling the old villains from stasis after repeated resolutions or producing similarly flavored villains that are essentially the same brand of villain with new paint. The quality of your villain is intrinsic to the state of your hero. If your villains are recycled or carbon copies then so are your heroes. A portion of one post lamented the, "villain of the week". I have to disagree. If you are cruising around a strange galaxies presenting reruns of the same villains it undermines the premise of your story. The Delta Quadrant arc was great and horrible. I loved what they did with a minor player in a backwater region and I hated the good content mashed between generic patrols. I like tapping into the Trek legacy as they did here but villains who wore the crown, gambled big and lost have been mined dry in most cases.

    I still like the idea of the Deferi. STO presented their own aliens and enriched their corner of the Trek universe with something unique to themselves. It wasn't a cut paste from the beloved theme park but in terms of following the spirit of Trek I felt it was meaningful. The efforts made from that initiative to imprint that race within the game were there. They made some token appearances in story missions, had a little piece of the universe of their own and even had a little doff to promote that presence. That was cool.

    The Lukari struck me as something similar but it seemed a missed opportunity that they didn't just go with the Deferi. That seed had been sitting almost since inception.

    Rehashing familiar Trek can be a sort of comfort food but not when it's too familiar. I'd like to see more villains of the week or maybe some elevated jobbers but the Trek universe c. 2410s doesn't seem appropriate to a big bad. The Alliance is a huge bad, or just huge middle of the road. A villain doesn't have to be huge as much as it needs to be intelligent to present a threat to such a ponderous adversary.
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  • kayajaykayajay Member Posts: 1,962 Arc User
    They. Would. NEVER. Have. Done. It...but I always imagined a season of Voyager. The Doctor really had enhanced the immune system to survive assimilation, the Unimatrix Zero trick to keep their minds intact, but the Borg infiltrating the ship, "assimilating" the crew, turning Engineering into an assimilation chamber, etc...but they're alive. The Doctor could then turn around and say, "Well I could reattach the amputated limbs, but you're only going to get assimilated again next week, so let's just wait..."

    It would have been absolutely grotesque, but at least in a nice way. Not like the Klingon TRIBBLE and killing all the Trill in Disco.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,631 Community Moderator
    It really sucks that the Borg have been stripped to almost nothing. To reduce them from a hurricane to a gentle breeze is a real lack of storytelling.

    I kinda disagree with this because of the simple fact that in TNG era games, the Borg are OVERUSED as an antagonist.
    • Star Trek Armada
    • Star Trek Armada II (Primary antagonist of the Fed campaign)
    • Star Trek Voyager Elite Force (Not the primary but they appear)
    • Star Trek Elite Force II (Not the primary but they appear)
    • Star Trek Starfleet Command III (Not the primary but they appear)
    • Star Trek Legacy
    • Star Trek: Borg
    • Star Trek Bridge Crew (in the TNG DLC)
    • Star Trek Online

    Just about every TNG era game has the Borg in it. In many they are the primary antagonist.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • thay8472thay8472 Member Posts: 5,952 Arc User
    Have a Borg Cube from the Mirror Universe arrive in the prime universe and spark things up?
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,296 Bug Hunter
    Yea maybe the Borg tried assimilating the Terran's a little later, because we all know in this Universe, well the famous Q speed up their introduction by perhaps decades. Might be nice to see the Borg in a Badlands Terran TFO where borg are threaning the Terrans and do we aid them, or decide to fight both.

    Might give an interesting decision if everyone in a TFO had to vote, possibly earning different accolades or titles or something...
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  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 1,129 Arc User
    edited August 1
    If the Borg actually got serious the entire gamma quadrant plus half the 32nd century would already be assimilated, the Dominion wouldn't stand a chance against the Borg, plus the Burn wouldn't affect them much, they'll just adapt and switch from matter/anti-matter engines to artificial singularity cores or something else they acquired from one of the other billions of species they assimilated in the past.

    TDLR: Borg > Dominion.
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