I don't think she (avatar) was saying anything too bad, just trying to refocus the discussion.
I'm myself said earlier humor aside, I was just mostly sad that most ships didn't look like they were Federation Designs at all, except the Intrepid was the sole ship they decided to keep in the 32nd Century. I'd say they (show runners) deserved a big two thumbs down, cause most the ships look like they were some new enemy force, not the Federation. That's despite the fact I love Discovery show a lot, I'd just really like to seen more Federation design principles.
Yeah, taste is completely subjective and no design is "bad" if we're talking pure aesthetics. That said, money talks. So if companies that produce toys/models/etc sell a ton of "Courage" class ships, then I guess the fanbase loved the design. If they don't, that will also say something.
I did ask the other mods to look into these two threads. I just don't want this to turn into a backdoor "attack Discovery" thing.
Hey thanks again for your feedback. And I also wanted to say that I'm sorry if my previous posts came off like an TRIBBLE; I'm definitely not trying to be.
As far as the toilet comparison, I could honestly care less what people say about this ship or any other. My only point/issue I'm trying to express is:
1: if something is actually against the rules, fine. Make sure the forum rules actually say that.
2: if something is not actually against the rules, then no one should be telling other people to stop doing it (especially mods, because what they say is supposed to be based on the rules not personal opinion).
The toilet thing just happens to be what we're talking about this time, but it could be any issue in any thread and my 2 points above would be the same.
Booker's Ship...I don't know if it was alien in origin, backwards engineered from something Federation or what, but it had a DISTINCT look of the Millennium Falcon. Star Trek has offered up everything that came before to Discovery and gave it the chance to use things that no other franchise had...they don't have to take from Star Wars, Babylon 5 or anything else, but to instead embrace the bones of designs that had been developed (in massive detail in technical manuals and those weekly magazines that you could put into binder through the 80's and 90's), but I think it's arrogance of people wanting to do something "new". In which case, make a non-Star Trek series and use all of these things. Have a ship that looks like it should have a pedestal mat around it. Have a Spore Drive...but I'm fine with a Federation starship having nacelles (however many you want), a saucer of type and warp drive. I don't need more than that, but then some great plotlines, which use what's already there, but in a new and exciting way. Disco has just gone off on a tangent, right down to ship design.
Booker's Ship...I don't know if it was alien in origin, backwards engineered from something Federation or what, but it had a DISTINCT look of the Millennium Falcon. Star Trek has offered up everything that came before to Discovery and gave it the chance to use things that no other franchise had...they don't have to take from Star Wars, Babylon 5 or anything else, but to instead embrace the bones of designs that had been developed (in massive detail in technical manuals and those weekly magazines that you could put into binder through the 80's and 90's), but I think it's arrogance of people wanting to do something "new". In which case, make a non-Star Trek series and use all of these things. Have a ship that looks like it should have a pedestal mat around it. Have a Spore Drive...but I'm fine with a Federation starship having nacelles (however many you want), a saucer of type and warp drive. I don't need more than that, but then some great plotlines, which use what's already there, but in a new and exciting way. Disco has just gone off on a tangent, right down to ship design.
That Kwejian Frigate, Booker's starship, actually "transforms", the whole starship articulates it's shape. There's even a few shapes it used in the tv series that I don't think it does in STO but that's okay.
This Courage class' hull doesn't "transform" in any way I've seen so far. It just does an abrupt turn & travels the other way similar to the Hirogen Hunter when using it's console.
If Cryptic had made this Courage class articulate it's hull shape similar to the Kwejian beginning with the Courage class' bow "transforming" into the Courage class' stern then continuing along the hull until the Courage class' original stern is "transformed" into the new bow that would've been very cool & perhaps worth gambling for.
Otherwise, it still has some good stats, maybe a good trait, console, & experimental weapon going for it along with strong versatile BOFF seating. & of course it's distinctive design.
I actually opened Booker's ship on Tribble, because I was curious...the animation looks like a Transformers film, which is not a good thing. It was just really mucky.
Hey thanks again for your feedback. And I also wanted to say that I'm sorry if my previous posts came off like an TRIBBLE; I'm definitely not trying to be.
I understand, and thanks for hearing me out too. You can kinda see where my concerns are coming from at least.
It would help if people didn't assume that criticizing specific ideas or things in the show was baseless bashing of the show in general.
When the subject of Discovery comes up though... the problem is that people will still find ways to attack it even by proxy. Mods have had to crack down on it quite a bit early on because of the Acronym issue and people using that as a derogatory slam against the show. Criticizing the design by itself is fine, but when you start hammering it constantly or lumping in people connected to the show to attack the design, and the source it came from in a backdoor manner... things start being less about the design itself and more about the source of said design.
I've already said myself I don't personally like the design. Its pretty much MEH for me. But I'm not going to beat it constantly or start expanding my grievences towards it to include ship designers attached to the show it came from, which in turn can be used AS an attack on the show because of not liking it. You'd be surprised how creative some people can be in attacking things they don't like.
All I'm asking is that we tone down the comparison to a toilet because people are starting to use that as an attack angle against the show itself. Like I've said, you can say you don't like the design. Just don't use it as a proxy attack on the source. And honestly... its getting more hate than the Dewan ships or the Atrox at this point, at least from my perspective.
It would help if people didn't assume that criticizing specific ideas or things in the show was baseless bashing of the show in general.
When the subject of Discovery comes up though... the problem is that people will still find ways to attack it even by proxy.
See, this is what confuses me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it sounds like you're suggesting a person attacking the show by proxy is actually wrong. But even if someone was doing that...what forum rule are you claiming they are breaking?
AFAIK, "attacking" a show you don't like is not against the forum rules unless the WAY you are doing it (language used) is breaking an ACTUAL forum rule.
But if there IS actually a rule that says "you cannot bash Discovery" or "you cannot use a ship as a proxy to bash Discovery", can you please link to it so we can all read it and be on the same page?
That's a bit murky to be honest, but based on past events where arguments sprung up about Discovery, it would lead to flame wars and gatekeeping.
Maybe I'm a bit paranoid, maybe I'm not. I'd just prefer we not find out how far it will go at all and keep the peace.
...they don't have to take from Star Wars, Babylon 5 or anything else, but to instead embrace the bones of designs that had been developed (in massive detail in technical manuals and those weekly magazines that you could put into binder through the 80's and 90's)... ...Disco has just gone off on a tangent, right down to ship design.
Still I think your point is very valid, about a return to more typical Federation designs (for the most part) and my only guess be the Dilthium burn incident, was the cause for said departure. At least that's my hope with Vulcan, Trill, Earth, Betazed, Andoria and several other Former Planets considering to rejoin the Federation; perhaps we might get back to a little more familiar territory.
...they don't have to take from Star Wars, Babylon 5 or anything else, but to instead embrace the bones of designs that had been developed (in massive detail in technical manuals and those weekly magazines that you could put into binder through the 80's and 90's)... ...Disco has just gone off on a tangent, right down to ship design.
Still I think your point is very valid, about a return to more typical Federation designs (for the most part) and my only guess be the Dilthium burn incident, was the cause for said departure. At least that's my hope with Vulcan, Trill, Earth, Betazed, Andoria and several other Former Planets considering to rejoin the Federation; perhaps we might get back to a little more familiar territory.
Yea, if Kurtzman spontaneously combusts, perhaps.....
...they don't have to take from Star Wars, Babylon 5 or anything else, but to instead embrace the bones of designs that had been developed (in massive detail in technical manuals and those weekly magazines that you could put into binder through the 80's and 90's)... ...Disco has just gone off on a tangent, right down to ship design.
Still I think your point is very valid, about a return to more typical Federation designs (for the most part) and my only guess be the Dilthium burn incident, was the cause for said departure. At least that's my hope with Vulcan, Trill, Earth, Betazed, Andoria and several other Former Planets considering to rejoin the Federation; perhaps we might get back to a little more familiar territory.
It still doesn't make sense to me..."The Burn" happens, but people still use warp drive and dilithium is a commodity? Surely it's something that you wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole! It's suddenly dangerous and should be useless. They didn't know why it started exploding, so why take the risk?
They should have either completely abandoned warp drive and switched to quantum slipstream, or you're not telling me that Discovery was the only ship in 1000-years to discover the Mycelial Network. The 22nd Century knew something that the 32nd didn't and there wasn't a SINGLE leaked source of its existence?
Instead, Disco should have been using Omega, because that would have been an incredible tie-in. Infinite power that allows you to hop out...that would have been terrific and I don't believe would have got up people's noses.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Benamite is necessary for Quantum Slipstream, and is also even rarer than post-burn dilithium.
Was benomite in the Dauntless' engine? And Voyager synthesized theirs and it would have taken years to grow more...but that it was possible to grow them, means they didn't have to be mined like dilithium.
Was benomite in the Dauntless' engine? And Voyager synthesized theirs and it would have taken years to grow more...but that it was possible to grow them, means they didn't have to be mined like dilithium.
If it takes multiple years to synthesize the material there is no way it could ever be used for reliable transport.
Instead, Disco should have been using Omega, because that would have been an incredible tie-in. Infinite power that allows you to hop out...that would have been terrific and I don't believe would have got up people's noses.
Not even the Borg could stabilize omega.
They didn't get the chance...but by that logic; is Discovery really the only group, not just race in all four quadrants to discover and develop the Tribble Drive?
In regards to the Spore drive, it took very specific circumstances for even the Glenn or Discovery to get it to work in a way that wasn't essentially too dangerous to use. I could see other races studying the possibility then abandoning it as nonviable and an R&D dead end like IRL nuclear powered cars (yes it was something that was really studied in the 1950s but it was deemed both too dangerous and too expensive to be viable).
Also in STO the Elachi do in fact have spore drives and if Stamets is to be believed better ones then one installed in Discovery (at least the one in 2250s Discovery)
Not to mention...where would you even get a nuclear battery small enough to fit in a car? Fallout has fusion cores, so they can do nuclear-powered cores, but we don't live in the Fallout universe (and thankfully, otherwise the Russians would probably still be fighting Yao Guai and who knows what else near Chernobyl).
And the existence of superior spore drives seems limited to STO for the moment, because the only upgrade Discovery got to her spore drive in the 32nd century was a more convenient, if significantly more gooey, interface for Stamets to use.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
The DASH drive requires either an extremely-hard-to-find space tardigrade, or DNA from said tardigrade integrated with a sapient pilot (that's why Burnham was desperate to keep Stamets out of the hands of the Emerald Chain - they'd already gotten hold of the Discovery, but without Stamets in the chamber spore jumps would be limited to about 300 kilometers or so). This is due to the fact that the mycelial network becomes impossible to predict with computers after a few hundred kilometers.
Benamite, needed for slipstream, is extremely rare. ("Unless you've got some benamite, and nobody does...")
Transwarp corridors are littered with the debris of ships that died in them during the Burn. They can be used - but survival rates of ships using them are less than 50%.
Warp drive might be expensive, but it was less expensive than slipstream and less dangerous than transwarp - frankly, the only "danger" in warp drive was that nobody knew what had caused the Burn, so they were afraid it might happen again. Simply activating a warp drive was not in and of itself "dangerous". And now that the cause has been found, and the danger removed (and turned into a rich source of dilithium!), warp drive is back, bay-bee!
I have to wonder why no one ever thought to clean out the transwarp network - just build a large, meters-thick battering ram (preferably with that neutronium weave they mentioned early in the season) with engines and just send it through pushing the debris out of the conduits...or at least out of the stable section into the edges where it can be torn apart.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
I have to wonder why no one ever thought to clean out the transwarp network - just build a large, meters-thick battering ram (preferably with that neutronium weave they mentioned early in the season) with engines and just send it through pushing the debris out of the conduits...or at least out of the stable section into the edges where it can be torn apart.
Like a snowplough for transwarp corridors.
Probably because no one had the resources to do it, and were more concerned with consolidating their own power in their own corners of the galaxy after The Burn. Even Subspace Communication between Federation member worlds was apparently spotty. Almost like the Subspace Relays got knocked out too or something.
They didn't get knocked out, they just suffered from the same problem as any other piece of technology eventually suffers from, no matter how advanced - they started breaking down, and no one was coming by to fix them.
And the Federation still had more than enough resources - and access to those resources - to build a few clearing ships if they wanted to (I mean, they built all those ships they use to keep the distortion field up around HQ, plus all the ships they had for their patrol fleets, so they clearly still had access to production facilities for components, refinement facilities for alloys and shipyards to put them all together), even in their reduced state...and they had more reason than most to want to try and clear the network.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
Comments
Yeah, taste is completely subjective and no design is "bad" if we're talking pure aesthetics. That said, money talks. So if companies that produce toys/models/etc sell a ton of "Courage" class ships, then I guess the fanbase loved the design. If they don't, that will also say something.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Hey thanks again for your feedback. And I also wanted to say that I'm sorry if my previous posts came off like an TRIBBLE; I'm definitely not trying to be.
As far as the toilet comparison, I could honestly care less what people say about this ship or any other. My only point/issue I'm trying to express is:
1: if something is actually against the rules, fine. Make sure the forum rules actually say that.
2: if something is not actually against the rules, then no one should be telling other people to stop doing it (especially mods, because what they say is supposed to be based on the rules not personal opinion).
The toilet thing just happens to be what we're talking about this time, but it could be any issue in any thread and my 2 points above would be the same.
Anyway, thanks again
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
That Kwejian Frigate, Booker's starship, actually "transforms", the whole starship articulates it's shape. There's even a few shapes it used in the tv series that I don't think it does in STO but that's okay.
This Courage class' hull doesn't "transform" in any way I've seen so far. It just does an abrupt turn & travels the other way similar to the Hirogen Hunter when using it's console.
If Cryptic had made this Courage class articulate it's hull shape similar to the Kwejian beginning with the Courage class' bow "transforming" into the Courage class' stern then continuing along the hull until the Courage class' original stern is "transformed" into the new bow that would've been very cool & perhaps worth gambling for.
Otherwise, it still has some good stats, maybe a good trait, console, & experimental weapon going for it along with strong versatile BOFF seating. & of course it's distinctive design.
I understand, and thanks for hearing me out too. You can kinda see where my concerns are coming from at least.
It would help if people didn't assume that criticizing specific ideas or things in the show was baseless bashing of the show in general.
When the subject of Discovery comes up though... the problem is that people will still find ways to attack it even by proxy. Mods have had to crack down on it quite a bit early on because of the Acronym issue and people using that as a derogatory slam against the show. Criticizing the design by itself is fine, but when you start hammering it constantly or lumping in people connected to the show to attack the design, and the source it came from in a backdoor manner... things start being less about the design itself and more about the source of said design.
I've already said myself I don't personally like the design. Its pretty much MEH for me. But I'm not going to beat it constantly or start expanding my grievences towards it to include ship designers attached to the show it came from, which in turn can be used AS an attack on the show because of not liking it. You'd be surprised how creative some people can be in attacking things they don't like.
All I'm asking is that we tone down the comparison to a toilet because people are starting to use that as an attack angle against the show itself. Like I've said, you can say you don't like the design. Just don't use it as a proxy attack on the source. And honestly... its getting more hate than the Dewan ships or the Atrox at this point, at least from my perspective.
aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
either to conquer or to die for the Empire
See, this is what confuses me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but it sounds like you're suggesting a person attacking the show by proxy is actually wrong. But even if someone was doing that...what forum rule are you claiming they are breaking?
AFAIK, "attacking" a show you don't like is not against the forum rules unless the WAY you are doing it (language used) is breaking an ACTUAL forum rule.
But if there IS actually a rule that says "you cannot bash Discovery" or "you cannot use a ship as a proxy to bash Discovery", can you please link to it so we can all read it and be on the same page?
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Maybe I'm a bit paranoid, maybe I'm not. I'd just prefer we not find out how far it will go at all and keep the peace.
Still I think your point is very valid, about a return to more typical Federation designs (for the most part) and my only guess be the Dilthium burn incident, was the cause for said departure. At least that's my hope with Vulcan, Trill, Earth, Betazed, Andoria and several other Former Planets considering to rejoin the Federation; perhaps we might get back to a little more familiar territory.
Yea, if Kurtzman spontaneously combusts, perhaps.....
Not a surprise considering the source.
It still doesn't make sense to me..."The Burn" happens, but people still use warp drive and dilithium is a commodity? Surely it's something that you wouldn't want to touch with a bargepole! It's suddenly dangerous and should be useless. They didn't know why it started exploding, so why take the risk?
They should have either completely abandoned warp drive and switched to quantum slipstream, or you're not telling me that Discovery was the only ship in 1000-years to discover the Mycelial Network. The 22nd Century knew something that the 32nd didn't and there wasn't a SINGLE leaked source of its existence?
Instead, Disco should have been using Omega, because that would have been an incredible tie-in. Infinite power that allows you to hop out...that would have been terrific and I don't believe would have got up people's noses.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Was benomite in the Dauntless' engine? And Voyager synthesized theirs and it would have taken years to grow more...but that it was possible to grow them, means they didn't have to be mined like dilithium.
They didn't get the chance...but by that logic; is Discovery really the only group, not just race in all four quadrants to discover and develop the Tribble Drive?
Also in STO the Elachi do in fact have spore drives and if Stamets is to be believed better ones then one installed in Discovery (at least the one in 2250s Discovery)
And the existence of superior spore drives seems limited to STO for the moment, because the only upgrade Discovery got to her spore drive in the 32nd century was a more convenient, if significantly more gooey, interface for Stamets to use.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Benamite, needed for slipstream, is extremely rare. ("Unless you've got some benamite, and nobody does...")
Transwarp corridors are littered with the debris of ships that died in them during the Burn. They can be used - but survival rates of ships using them are less than 50%.
Warp drive might be expensive, but it was less expensive than slipstream and less dangerous than transwarp - frankly, the only "danger" in warp drive was that nobody knew what had caused the Burn, so they were afraid it might happen again. Simply activating a warp drive was not in and of itself "dangerous". And now that the cause has been found, and the danger removed (and turned into a rich source of dilithium!), warp drive is back, bay-bee!
Like a snowplough for transwarp corridors.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
It was one of the reasons it was deemed non-viable, those cars had to be huge even by 1950s standards so building them became way too expensive.
Probably because no one had the resources to do it, and were more concerned with consolidating their own power in their own corners of the galaxy after The Burn. Even Subspace Communication between Federation member worlds was apparently spotty. Almost like the Subspace Relays got knocked out too or something.
And the Federation still had more than enough resources - and access to those resources - to build a few clearing ships if they wanted to (I mean, they built all those ships they use to keep the distortion field up around HQ, plus all the ships they had for their patrol fleets, so they clearly still had access to production facilities for components, refinement facilities for alloys and shipyards to put them all together), even in their reduced state...and they had more reason than most to want to try and clear the network.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"