rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 59,030Community Moderator
edited May 2021
Alright guys... lets back off for a minute and cool off. This is starting to get heated and people are now targeting each other for differing opinions. You want to debate Feedback Pulse? Fine. But lets not start trying to assign intent of malice or anything towards each other!
Now... its looking more and more like a debate over viable strategies and counters, with one side claiming there are none, while the other is pointing out quite a few... with evidence I might add.
So... legit question here... why is there such pushback against the already stated counters? FBP doesn't get triggered by Kinetic, so damage can still be dealt during FBP if a disable or interrupt is not available. Again I'm failing to see any logic against the stated counters other than "my build doesn't support that".
Someone who specializes in pure Energy shouldn't expect it to be the I Win button 100% of the time. There is ALWAYS something out there that will slap you for it. In this case its FBP.
Again, Borg queen stands alone, there is nothing to do there. Voth shields are fine, yes, because you can go around them, even engage them while moving to get them to shield on the side you are already leaving. For a Voth shield I stop firing and fly to the other side. That is actual gameplay, as opposed to the queen where there is literally nothing else to do. Yet Voth shields also aren't instant death for a high DPS build, the queen can be.
I'm gonna address this point specifically. The Queen is A BOSS. She's SUPPOSED to be difficult. The Voth are not bosses. Also... and I'm assuming you are referring directly to Hive Onslaught, you're on a team. Which means you have at least a 1 in 5 chance of a Subnuc being available to the team in the form of a Science teammate, which means teamwork. And that's at the bare minimum. Again, multiple counters have been listed. Using any of them or not is your CHOICE. Declaring that there is, as you put it, "literally nothing else to do" in such a way as to make it sound absolute is misleading as there are viable counters, and you're making it sound like this applies to ALL instances of FBP in the game, boss mob and trash mob.
I don't know if its been mentioned already, but I belive the Heavy Graviton Beam from the old MACO set might actually cause a short disable, which would cut off FBP because it offlines subsystems for a second. And unless you're relying on a set bonus to boost your energy damage, which I don't know of very many sets that do, its a viable, albet old, option.
So again... counters DO exist. Using them or not is by choice.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
And what abilities do enemies use that have the same effect on EPG or torp builds?
There's quite a few that have stun and disabling effects, various system offline abilities that turn an action bar into a a bunch of dead buttons which can be fatal to a Sci build that generally survives on its tricks.
And those effect energy weapons just as much, so, again, what abilities do enemy ships have that impact EPG and Torp builds the same way? Because FBP *EXCLUSIVELY* disables energy weapons for 15s.
In answer to my question: there's nothing. Nothing in this game exclusively disables EPG or Torp builds. Only energy weapons have the distinction of being singled out.
And? Is that supposed to be some kind of problem? Some kind of conspiracy against EW builds?
It's not. But even if it was, it does not negate the fact that there are ways around the FBP that you guys are simply ignoring because you seem incapable of thinking outside the "pew pew pew vape everything in 30 secons flats" mentality.
90% of my characters runs around on EW builds - though most of them do have at least one torpedo, too.
The rest are EPG builds, because I find them fun to play but they're not my preferred style.
I never slack as far as dps go, and still I find absolutely no reason to complain about one of the last few things that forces people to actually pay attention and adjust to what's happening around them.
Once again, if stopping dpsing, changing target or only using torpedoes or non EW skills for a measly 15 seconds prove to be something people aren't willing to do then it's on them and not on the game.
As @rattler2 rightfully pointed out, AGAIN: counters do exist; using them or not is your choice.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
It's not really BS its a symptom of the games focus on mindless pewpew and pointless power creep on a horizontal difficulty curve. FBP was in the game before the flavour of the month build appeared and noone minded because at that stage the creep was only just beginning.
Everytime there's been something added thats an attempt at countering there's a minor bump, such as the hurq nibblers being behind the frontal arc of fire. Kethi cruisers that can draw out a fight unless prioritised. Orb weavers that dump multiple orbs on a player making it next to impossible to target nodes. Yes those are minor hiccups but as with FBP all it took to figure out a response was to pay attention to a fight and do a tiny bit of thinking.
Counter for torps and gravwells? How about suggesting some options, instead of moaning about them being unfair.
One specific form of weaponry being singled out, while *NONE* of the other are, is not 'fine.' It's BS.
Far from it. If a player makes the choice to run with only EW and nothing else to back them up then that player must accept that there will be FBP to put them out of action for 15 seconds (or the duration of the respawn timer if they're careless).
As has been said time and again, choice determines the options at a player's disposal. A refusal to adapt is a decision made by the player, and the player must take responsibility for that choice. It is not the fault of the game or a well established NPC ability that has been around since launch.
My current BoP Tac build is 80% EW (Grav Torps are too much fun) and based around flank attacks, but you won't find me complaining that Tzenkethi can just blink and make such things barely tickle. I have to accept that a head on attack is the only reliable way that build can damage them which means I have to be careful because the barrages from the bigger ships can very nearly swat my little raider out of the sky in an instant if I do not prepare properly.
Nor will my Patrol Escort main (88% EW and a Tac Officer) grumble about FBP because I took one look at that ability after getting insta-popped (my first encounter with a Galor shortly after launch if memory serves though that was 11 years ago, sheesh!), I figured "well that's nasty I better do something about that" so I read the description and swapped in some Torps, and played about with the Cardassian missions to work out how the npcs used it and ways to deal with those ships.
Looking at my roster I only have one Sci/EPG/Torp character and that was made during this years Delta Recruit run. I'm still not sure I like the concept because the playstyle is quite alien to my usual "pedal to the metal, cannon blazing", heck it flies backward to get a buff, what is with that?
One specific form of weaponry being singled out, while *NONE* of the other are, is not 'fine.' It's BS.
Far from it. If a player makes the choice to run with only EW and nothing else to back them up then that player must accept that there will be FBP to put them out of action for 15 seconds (or the duration of the respawn timer if they're careless).
As has been said time and again, choice determines the options at a player's disposal. A refusal to adapt is a decision made by the player, and the player must take responsibility for that choice. It is not the fault of the game or a well established NPC ability that has been around since launch.
My current BoP Tac build is 80% EW (Grav Torps are too much fun) and based around flank attacks, but you won't find me complaining that Tzenkethi can just blink and make such things barely tickle. I have to accept that a head on attack is the only reliable way that build can damage them which means I have to be careful because the barrages from the bigger ships can very nearly swat my little raider out of the sky in an instant if I do not prepare properly.
Nor will my Patrol Escort main (88% EW and a Tac Officer) grumble about FBP because I took one look at that ability after getting insta-popped (my first encounter with a Galor shortly after launch if memory serves though that was 11 years ago, sheesh!), I figured "well that's nasty I better do something about that" so I read the description and swapped in some Torps, and played about with the Cardassian missions to work out how the npcs used it and ways to deal with those ships.
Looking at my roster I only have one Sci/EPG/Torp character and that was made during this years Delta Recruit run. I'm still not sure I like the concept because the playstyle is quite alien to my usual "pedal to the metal, cannon blazing", heck it flies backward to get a buff, what is with that?
They were envious of shrimps when they thought that out, don't you mind them!
Jokes aside, agreed 100% and very well put. And truly, if we start with stuff that works only with one specific form of weaponry or one specific ability, then we'll have to scratch half the damn game. THAT would be BS.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Alright guys... lets back off for a minute and cool off. This is starting to get heated and people are now targeting each other for differing opinions. You want to debate Feedback Pulse? Fine. But lets not start trying to assign intent of malice or anything towards each other!
Now... its looking more and more like a debate over viable strategies and counters, with one side claiming there are none, while the other is pointing out quite a few... with evidence I might add.
So... legit question here... why is there such pushback against the already stated counters? FBP doesn't get triggered by Kinetic, so damage can still be dealt during FBP if a disable or interrupt is not available. Again I'm failing to see any logic against the stated counters other than "my build doesn't support that".
Someone who specializes in pure Energy shouldn't expect it to be the I Win button 100% of the time. There is ALWAYS something out there that will slap you for it. In this case its FBP.
Rebuild for torpedoes so you don't have to deal with FBP? That's entirely unreasonable. Further they do not counter FBP. They ignore it because FBP doesn't interact with torpedoes, just like an EW ship can usually ignore FBP on every random science ships in the badlands.
I have torpedo builds. I'm not going to turn every one of my captains and ships into torpedo boats just because I might get Hive Onslaught or Borg Disconnected, via randomizer. Again, that is entirely unreasonable.
And you literally do not have to ever stop shooting running a torpedo or exotic build. It is, in your own words, an I win button 100% of the time. It therefore is not even reasonable to suggest that should be in the calculus. Double standards are no standards.
Again, Borg queen stands alone, there is nothing to do there. Voth shields are fine, yes, because you can go around them, even engage them while moving to get them to shield on the side you are already leaving. For a Voth shield I stop firing and fly to the other side. That is actual gameplay, as opposed to the queen where there is literally nothing else to do. Yet Voth shields also aren't instant death for a high DPS build, the queen can be.
I'm gonna address this point specifically. The Queen is A BOSS. She's SUPPOSED to be difficult. The Voth are not bosses. Also... and I'm assuming you are referring directly to Hive Onslaught, you're on a team. Which means you have at least a 1 in 5 chance of a Subnuc being available to the team in the form of a Science teammate, which means teamwork. And that's at the bare minimum. Again, multiple counters have been listed. Using any of them or not is your CHOICE. Declaring that there is, as you put it, "literally nothing else to do" in such a way as to make it sound absolute is misleading as there are viable counters, and you're making it sound like this applies to ALL instances of FBP in the game, boss mob and trash mob.
I don't know if its been mentioned already, but I belive the Heavy Graviton Beam from the old MACO set might actually cause a short disable, which would cut off FBP because it offlines subsystems for a second. And unless you're relying on a set bonus to boost your energy damage, which I don't know of very many sets that do, its a viable, albet old, option.
So again... counters DO exist. Using them or not is by choice.
Interrupts/stuns do not stop FBP. Voth citadels are all bosses, in fact there's a Voth citadel boss ship right alongside a Borg diamond in Borg Disconnected. Having a sci captain in the team that knows how to use SNB to strip FBP is great, if it happens. It is not a reliable counter to get a random teammate that is science and knows what to do.
And no I'm not being anything but clear here. If you want to ignore that I started off in this thread talking about the Queen and the scaling issues with the damage, that's on you. FBP on normal lower level enemies in the badlands, which is almost the only other place in the game you find FBP outside of the Queen diamond is very rarely an actual problem if you have some healing. The scaling is absurd on the queen, but the fact remains you can't actually counter the FBP on random science ships in the Badlands either, as they spawn far too fast, always using FBP first, to actually be able to SNB or SNCW all of them, if you even have those tools available. At least with those you're not going to kill yourself in a single salvo, and you usually have something else you can shoot at too unlike the queen.
Player damage has consistently been going higher over the years. This makes the ridiculous scaling of FBP on the queen a bigger, more obvious problem versus years past. Meanwhile, the power is utter garbage on a player ship against NPC targets. This is not a well designed power. Why is it the only ability in the game that has a scripted warning telling you to stop shooting the queen? What is the argument against adjusting it?
Actual counters for FBP include subnucleonic Beam, subnucleonic carrier wave, and any ability that can shut down aux, which ridiculously we have to include target subsystem powers here which are not actually safe to use on an EW ship against the queen's FBP. Power drains themselves are basically ineffective without an absurd drain rating. Countering the damage from FBP can be done with healing, but that only really works on low rank enemies.
Counters for FBP do not include sitting on your hands or using specific weapons or builds. Those do not counter it, they avoid it and do not make for good gameplay responses to FBP. Using exotic damage or torpedoes when you aren't built for it is just a tickle with only a tiny part of your build set up to enhance them versus all the effort you put into making the EW part of your build potent, which means you're still stuck waiting for FBP to end.
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rattler2Member, Star Trek Online ModeratorPosts: 59,030Community Moderator
Rebuild for torpedoes so you don't have to deal with FBP? That's entirely unreasonable. Further they do not counter FBP. They ignore it because FBP doesn't interact with torpedoes, just like an EW ship can usually ignore FBP on every random science ships in the badlands.
Circumventing a mechanic by using something that it doesn't trigger on is still a viable counter. And you don't have to convert wholesale from energy to torpedo. Just swap maybe... one weapon out. Unless you're so obsessed with DPS that one torpedo is going to hurt your numbers... you're still doing damage.
This isn't a case of "trade your ENTIRE build to counter ONE ability". Its adapting to threats. Now maybe because I tend to have generalist balance builds most of these things aren't as much of a problem as some make it out to be, but no one said anything about swapping entire builds to counter FBP. Whats at issue now is the pushback against already established counters and tactics.
Why is there such a need to strike back at suggestions on how to deal with it that aren't the Nerf Bat as if it is heresy to even SUGGEST things that are already in game?
Its honestly like saying "to hell with mechanics, FULL ATTACK!"
Usually doesn't work out very well for the player in 99% games.
I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite colored text = mod mode
I'd offer up the suggestion that the SV boff is also trained in rapid fire or FAW to overload, doesn't change weapon type away from energy and barely takes a moment on PC to swap at the start of a tfo if required.
But the inflexibility being shown makes it seem that such a suggestion would vanish like a windypop in a hurricane.
Rebuild for torpedoes so you don't have to deal with FBP? That's entirely unreasonable. Further they do not counter FBP. They ignore it because FBP doesn't interact with torpedoes, just like an EW ship can usually ignore FBP on every random science ships in the badlands.
Circumventing a mechanic by using something that it doesn't trigger on is still a viable counter. And you don't have to convert wholesale from energy to torpedo. Just swap maybe... one weapon out. Unless you're so obsessed with DPS that one torpedo is going to hurt your numbers... you're still doing damage.
This isn't a case of "trade your ENTIRE build to counter ONE ability". Its adapting to threats. Now maybe because I tend to have generalist balance builds most of these things aren't as much of a problem as some make it out to be, but no one said anything about swapping entire builds to counter FBP. Whats at issue now is the pushback against already established counters and tactics.
Why is there such a need to strike back at suggestions on how to deal with it that aren't the Nerf Bat as if it is heresy to even SUGGEST things that are already in game?
Its honestly like saying "to hell with mechanics, FULL ATTACK!"
Usually doesn't work out very well for the player in 99% games.
Counter is not the same as workaround. Not going to argue semantics, but when I say counter, I want something that nullifies, in part or in total, FBP, either removing FBP itself from the target, or by making the player immune to it for a duration, and I offered up simple suggestions towards that in a previous post.
I have maybe 20 characters. Some are torpedo builds, some are exotic builds, some are full EW builds, most are somewhere in between. What you're suggesting is that EW builds should not exist, everyone should generify their builds and have torpedoes, torpedo skills, or exotics just for that random chance you get Hive onslaught with no sci captain on the team. Or sit on your hands.
No other build needs to do that because FBP is only punishing to EW heavy builds. Why is it reasonable to suggest that full EW builds should not be full EW builds? Again, this is not an issue for any other build, torpedo, exotic, or hybrids in general.
I don't find it unreasonable to point out that FBP on the queen is wildly OP not just compared to a player's FBP, but the simple fact it can in fact kill an EW heavy ship with a single salvo leaving that player with no possibility to react to it to correct the mistake. This of course in contrast to non EW builds which can ignore the mechanic or at least with more limited energy weapons in their builds can survive it. That is a clear sign of something that is broken. Instant death abilities do not make good gameplay. What is the issue with pointing that out, and expecting some tweaks and changes?
Further, and I don't know the math on this, but it seems entirely possible that FBP is more punishing to some EW builds versus others. The L. B'rel I mentioned earlier is a flanker, and I use the console set to easily and quickly put myself behind bosses and groups for the flanking bonus. Is FPB hitting me with my own damage beefed up by the flanking modifier and other cat 2 bonuses or does it factor that out? Changing what damage gets calculated in FBP is not unreasonable, afterall positional damage like flanking is a representation of hitting vulnerable points, not actually increasing damage output from the weapons themselves so it doesn't make sense to reflect it.
I'd offer up the suggestion that the SV boff is also trained in rapid fire or FAW to overload, doesn't change weapon type away from energy and barely takes a moment on PC to swap at the start of a tfo if required.
But the inflexibility being shown makes it seem that such a suggestion would vanish like a windypop in a hurricane.
I'm not even sure what you mean with this post. Changing from scatter volley to rapid fire does absolutely nothing for you against the Borg queen ship.
FBP doesn't even make sense for anything but sustained beam weapons. Pulse beams and cannons shouldn't trigger it either, anymore than torpedoes do. They don't form a connected energy beam between your ship and the target ship to *feedback* through.
Semantics. FBP reflects energy damage. Doesn't really matter whether said energy is pulsed, or contiguous.
So you know what, if cannons and pulse weapons trigger it, then it should trigger on ALL damage sources, torps and exotics included. Let's see how fast the "Git Gud" crowd changes their tune when they get melted in a couple seconds....all you had to do was stop attacking, after all.
Kinetic (the game mechanic) is impact dmg. It cannot be reflected: not in real life, and not in STO. That's just physics. Lasers, for instance, funnily enough, actually also do kinetic dmg. But light can be reflected (every mirror can do it). You cannot reflect torpedo dmg, though. If a high-speed projectile hits you, you cannot send the energy back to sender. Only light/beam based stuff can be reflected. So, FBP on torps, other than for spite, makes no sense whatsoever.
FBP doesn't even make sense for anything but sustained beam weapons. Pulse beams and cannons shouldn't trigger it either, anymore than torpedoes do. They don't form a connected energy beam between your ship and the target ship to *feedback* through.
Semantics. FBP reflects energy damage. Doesn't really matter whether said energy is pulsed, or contiguous.
So you know what, if cannons and pulse weapons trigger it, then it should trigger on ALL damage sources, torps and exotics included. Let's see how fast the "Git Gud" crowd changes their tune when they get melted in a couple seconds....all you had to do was stop attacking, after all.
Kinetic (the game mechanic) is impact dmg. It cannot be reflected: not in real life, and not in STO. That's just physics. Lasers, for instance, funnily enough, actually also do kinetic dmg. But light can be reflected (every mirror can do it). You cannot reflect torpedo dmg, though. If a high-speed projectile hits you, you cannot send the energy back to sender. Only light/beam based stuff can be reflected. So, FBP on torps, other than for spite, makes no sense whatsoever.
I see someone who didn't do well with physics or geometry. You can reflect impact forces, too. Or how exactly did you think billiards works?? And to reflect light back at the origin, the angle of impact and the angle of surface have to be perpendicular. Bullets will do the same thing, by the way. They're called ricochets.
That's not reflection, that's just Newton's third Law: if object A exerts a force on object B, object B also exerts an equal and opposite force on object A. (Or, if you insist, you could call mutual reflection.) Billiard balls ricochet off each other, because they don't break on impact. But when you're in a submarine, and someone fires a torpedo at you, and it impacts, it won't 'feedback' on the destroyer: you just simply die. There's simply no back-channel to send the kinetic dmg along. Light (lasers) are entirely different in that regard. The light, on impact, doesn't half destroy the mirror, and half the sender, but rather the light, and ALL the energy it carries, gets truly reflected entirely.
Now, ship hulls aren't mirrors, of course; but it's eminently more plausible for a hull to feedback some portion of beam energy than it is to assume a torpedo impact will somehow magically be fed back to the attacker.
FBP doesn't even make sense for anything but sustained beam weapons. Pulse beams and cannons shouldn't trigger it either, anymore than torpedoes do. They don't form a connected energy beam between your ship and the target ship to *feedback* through.
So you know what, if cannons and pulse weapons trigger it, then it should trigger on ALL damage sources, torps and exotics included. Let's see how fast the "Git Gud" crowd changes their tune when they get melted in a couple seconds....all you had to do was stop attacking, after all.
I'm in the freaking diamond league, I don't need to "change my tune when I get melted in a couple of seconds" because, as I stated above, 90% of my builds are EW so I know full well what a FBP left unatteded can do - and in fact, guess what? I suffer from it even to this day, when I'm playing randomly or not paying attention.
Also, no one in this thread has EVER said "git gud"... we're simply pointing out that there are ways - established ways, well known ways, ways that have been there since the freaking game itself! - to avoid getting "melted in a couple of seconds".
The fact that some people are pushing back so hard against tactics that have worked since forever, are still working and will continue to work unless there is some fundamental change to how FBP works is not on US, but on you guys.
I will never say "git gud" to anyone, but I will say this: if you're dying because you're too inflexible to even contemplate the idea that what you're doing is at fault, it's not the game's problem. It's yours. You have all the power to choose to counteract what's killing you, and you aren't. Ask yourself why that is and maybe, just maybe, you'll find the solution to your problem.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Have to agree with Jenny here. Besides, no one who's actually 'gud' has ever said "git gud" when it comes to FBP, as they would be too embarrassed even to suggest that the mere act of disengaging makes one 'gud.' I did mention L2P once, but that just pertains to very basic game knowledge (like when to hold 'em, and when to fold 'em).
I also want to counter the whole notion that FBP cannot be countered. Back in the day, Ionic Turbulence couldn't be countered; that was bad (for PvP-ers). FBP, however, doesn't even compare. You can counter FBP simply by not shooting blindly at the target that raises its FBP icon, or disengaging when you do. What's next? I wonder. Peeps asking the spacebar be pressed automagically? (As that would be the ultimate consequence of stubbornly not wanting to take your fingers off of it).
Frankly, this whole thread just feels silly. I wish it would get closed; or that the webmasters give us an option to unsubscribe from threads.
So you know what, if cannons and pulse weapons trigger it, then it should trigger on ALL damage sources, torps and exotics included. Let's see how fast the "Git Gud" crowd changes their tune when they get melted in a couple seconds....all you had to do was stop attacking, after all.
So your answer to the puzzle is "If I can't solve it, then make it so nobody can!"
This whole argument of, "I demand the universe change so my self-inflicted straightjacket grants me freedom of movement! If not, then force everyone to feel my pain!" is getting tiresome.
None of the detractors have offered any reason FBP should continue to work the way it does, why it is okay to instakill EW builds. Why is okay to not affect torpedo or exotic builds? Why is the damage it does not capped? Why are the only counters to it locked to sci captains and intel ships? Why not add another counter that any ship can slot?
What is the argument against changes? All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?) The issue, however, is that is a ridiculous solution that is only necessary because of a badly designed power and the way it scales.
None of the detractors have offered any reason FBP should continue to work the way it does, why it is okay to instakill EW builds. Why is okay to not affect torpedo or exotic builds? Why is the damage it does not capped? Why are the only counters to it locked to sci captains and intel ships? Why not add another counter that any ship can slot?
What is the argument against changes? All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?) The issue, however, is that is a ridiculous solution that is only necessary because of a badly designed power and the way it scales.
Correct. And the majority of the posts here completely lost the point. Hence my lack of interest in reply anything here.
FBP on npcs is completely broken, especially in a fast paced solo content that when played in advanced or elite and you are on a escort or anything less resilient than an cruiser you will not have 15 seconds to sit around and look amidst the crazy amount of visual effects what damn ship is shining with that damn skill up. The bad U.I plus the lack of balance made this issue not the "kill everything" mentality. One volley, of a high powered EW build and you are done, even if you unselect the target or stop attacking.
And the more powerful you get the better are even your defensive stats. I often fly a t6 fleet tactical escort and without giving up an inch of my offensive power i can go over 100k/105k hull in combat, 15k shield, lots of shield and hull resistance/negation/absorption, that can easily go up 60% dmg resistance allowing me to solo advanced or elite content and yet you can die on a snap because of that cursed skill simply because devs here don't take a minute to check how skills they slap on NPCs will perform on anything above the regular difficulty.
There's the intel ability that diverts torps to a specific target so something similar could be added that diverts incoming torps either to that target or within a radius. But that would fall prey to the broken kinetic damage that's a long term part of the game.
Something that allows a ship to harness the power of a grav well and gain a boost from it might be interesting, although likely just another kethi cruiser situation where you kill that ship and then drop the well.
Aren't there a few universal consoles that do picard manouver style hops. Vague memory of a trait that has you blipping in and out of phase during evasive manouvers. Neither of those options would be that restrictive.
Simple solution, nerf mindless pewpew build options to reduce the damage they put out. Or get kurland to go full clippy and ask if you're sure you want to do that everytime you tap the spacebar.
None of the detractors have offered any reason FBP should continue to work the way it does, why it is okay to instakill EW builds. Why is okay to not affect torpedo or exotic builds? Why is the damage it does not capped? Why are the only counters to it locked to sci captains and intel ships? Why not add another counter that any ship can slot?
What is the argument against changes? All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?) The issue, however, is that is a ridiculous solution that is only necessary because of a badly designed power and the way it scales.
No, all you're seeing is people telling you that the requested change is not necessary because there are already countermeasures in place that allows you to survive an FBP unscathed.
I don't need to offer any reason as to why it should remain the way it is, because there's no reason to change it in the first place.
All I'm seeing amounts to "change it, because I can't be bothered to adjust and so everyone else must adjust to MY way of playing".
As for the OP: none of the posts here have actually lost the point. We're simply refusing to bending to your will and say "ok, you're right". Something that you should've accounted for when you opened this thread.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Player incompetence and a player driven chase for dps is not a justification for changing a well documented mechanic that has been in place since launch.
Why is okay to not affect torpedo or exotic builds?
It's well documented as not affecting those attack types. There are other powers and NPC types that mess with such play styles. Granted they do not do so in the same manner, but I've already made my point about this sort of false fairness argument a few posts earlier today.
Why are the only counters to it locked to sci captains and intel ships? Why not add another counter that any ship can slot?
Probably because that would remove some of the uniqueness of Sci captains and Intel ships and BOffs. "Once everyone's special no one will be!" - Syndrome
Maybe go back and actually read the responses to your posts rather than just what you want to take from them twisted to further your flawed argument? It's all there in white on black in three pages of thread.
All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Because you're not actually reading the responses, only what you want to read into them to suit your own flawed argument. It's all there in white on black in three pages of thread.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?)
Generally power mechanics across MMOs (and videogames as a whole) have visual tells if you look for them. In boss fights they tend to be more overt. This is not unique to FBP in STO, pretending it is, is a fallacy and not justification for changing the mechanic.
None of the detractors have offered any reason FBP should continue to work the way it does, why it is okay to instakill EW builds. Why is okay to not affect torpedo or exotic builds? Why is the damage it does not capped? Why are the only counters to it locked to sci captains and intel ships? Why not add another counter that any ship can slot?
What is the argument against changes? All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?) The issue, however, is that is a ridiculous solution that is only necessary because of a badly designed power and the way it scales.
No, all you're seeing is people telling you that the requested change is not necessary because there are already countermeasures in place that allows you to survive an FBP unscathed.
I don't need to offer any reason as to why it should remain the way it is, because there's no reason to change it in the first place.
All I'm seeing amounts to "change it, because I can't be bothered to adjust and so everyone else must adjust to MY way of playing".
As for the OP: none of the posts here have actually lost the point. We're simply refusing to bending to your will and say "ok, you're right". Something that you should've accounted for when you opened this thread.
Now you finally say you don't want it to change, just because. Great. That's a position to take. No change because you don't agree with the many reasons to change it. The problem with that is you can't actually offer an argument for anyone else to agree with you, and see your perspective because its the null perspective. Just do nothing.
Yet at the same time, you're refusing to read what is written, and in fact imagining an argument not being made to argue against. At no point is the issue that FBP can't be dealt with to survive the duration. I personally have been dealing with FBP for more than 11 years. It isn't hard, its just stupid and is not good gameplay, nor good balance, nor good sense with the way FBP works versus everything else in the game, and has only gotten worse over the years thanks to increasing power creep and sensory overload.
I'm still waiting to hear an argument for keeping it the way it is, though.
None of the detractors have offered any reason FBP should continue to work the way it does, why it is okay to instakill EW builds. Why is okay to not affect torpedo or exotic builds? Why is the damage it does not capped? Why are the only counters to it locked to sci captains and intel ships? Why not add another counter that any ship can slot?
What is the argument against changes? All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?) The issue, however, is that is a ridiculous solution that is only necessary because of a badly designed power and the way it scales.
Correct. And the majority of the posts here completely lost the point. Hence my lack of interest in reply anything here.
FBP on npcs is completely broken, especially in a fast paced solo content that when played in advanced or elite and you are on a escort or anything less resilient than an cruiser you will not have 15 seconds to sit around and look amidst the crazy amount of visual effects what damn ship is shining with that damn skill up. The bad U.I plus the lack of balance made this issue not the "kill everything" mentality. One volley, of a high powered EW build and you are done, even if you unselect the target or stop attacking.
And the more powerful you get the better are even your defensive stats. I often fly a t6 fleet tactical escort and without giving up an inch of my offensive power i can go over 100k/105k hull in combat, 15k shield, lots of shield and hull resistance/negation/absorption, that can easily go up 60% dmg resistance allowing me to solo advanced or elite content and yet you can die on a snap because of that cursed skill simply because devs here don't take a minute to check how skills they slap on NPCs will perform on anything above the regular difficulty.
And this is all I have to say about it.
I love life on easy street. Pew-pewing without a care in the world, wee! Then you run into the Borg-Queen: an even bigger beatch than me, LOL, and you die. Difference being: I don't blame others, or the game. Same in Terran BZ. Terrans can hit extremely hard with their special abilities. And then, at times, I die too. But I usually just go 'Oops, better pay attention next time.' And while my fun isn't wrong, and I love the almost hypnotic cadence of the mindless pew-pewing, overall, I really appreciate there are at least a few enemies that don't just roll over and die. The Borg have been made pathetic as it is: let there at least be a Queen who reminds us the Borg was meant to be dangerous. To quote Q, "If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home, and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here!"
Now you finally say you don't want it to change, just because. Great. That's a position to take. No change because you don't agree with the many reasons to change it. The problem with that is you can't actually offer an argument for anyone else to agree with you, and see your perspective because its the null perspective. Just do nothing.
Yeah, no. The onus is on YOU to make a compelling case why the behavior of FBP is supposed to change -- not on Jenny to be on the defensive about why she (and many with her) feel it's fine 'as is.' And so far, you haven't even begun to make a cogent case. All your arguments pretty much amount to "Yeah, I know I can avoid FBP by disengaging, but dammit, I don't want to, because it's so unreasonable I pay actual attention to the field. OMG, the game is so broken!" It don't work that way.
I'm still waiting to hear an argument for keeping it the way it is, though.
Here's one: some things in games should be a challenge and require changing tactics to overcome. It even fits the lore: on screen appearances of the Borg often required unconventional tactics. Therefore, it should be kept as is.
I'll go a step further and say that other enemies have their own strengths and weaknesses as well. An enemy with high shields (Tzenkethi) are harder to fight with Torpedo heavy builds because shields mitigate so much kinetic damage. EPG builds require more cooldown management than other builds, and any enemy that can drain or disable your Aux power can cut into your effectiveness, such as Elachi. Therefore, keeping Feedback Pulse as is keeps some level of balance and continues to allow for there to be a good reason for hybridizing builds and actually putting defense on a build.
My 2EC on that point at least.
Call me "El," she/her only. I love my wife and I don't care who knows it!
Now you finally say you don't want it to change, just because. Great. That's a position to take. No change because you don't agree with the many reasons to change it. The problem with that is you can't actually offer an argument for anyone else to agree with you, and see your perspective because its the null perspective. Just do nothing.
Yeah, no. The onus is on YOU to make a compelling case why the behavior of FBP is supposed to change -- not on Jenny to be on the defensive about why she (and many with her) feel it's fine 'as is.' And so far, you haven't even begun to make a cogent case. All your arguments pretty much amount to "Yeah, I know I can avoid FBP by disengaging, but dammit, I don't want to, because it's so unreasonable I pay actual attention to the field. OMG, the game is so broken!" It don't work that way.
Thank you for the support, Mei. It's much appreciated. But to me this discussion is over. There's no point talking with a wall and this is, quite clearly, trying to talk to a wall. If they're content just whining to justify their unwillingness to lift their finger from the spacebar for just a few seconds, then so be it. I will continue to enjoy what little challenge the FBP offers together with what's left of anything remotely challenging, before this game - thanks to them and people like them who wants all to be served to them on a silver platter - goes even more down the drain in a storm of mindless nothing. It's very close to that, but it's not there yet.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I've read a few lines here and there, mentioning a couple of things seems justified.
1. Simply using other abilities isn't a counter. It's a bypass. One that still isn't cheap, easy to implement or - as can be seen from Cryptic's approach to character creation promotion - even wanted on all ships, for all characters that might run into damage reflection abilities. A true counter is (in this case) something like Subnucleonic beam.
2. Using other abilities that are, mostly, one-off things that you activate and which have lingering effects after activation, isn't in any way promoting thinking, situational awareness or whatever. Not anymore than 'pew pew pewing' with EW is. It's restricting what can be done, nothing more, despite some people apparently wanting to believe that their intelligence is boosted if they use EPG abilities or torpedoes. It's cute, really.
3. (Hence) when you want to promote using diverse tactics, reduce players' abilities to kill everything in mere seconds (which are all good goals!) or whatever, blocking EW's effectiveness but still allowing easy clicky stuff to do the job, isn't going to be a very logical approach.
Wait. This isn't new. These are facts, observations and related consequences that were contributed to the discussion early on and they're still standing.
Comments
Now... its looking more and more like a debate over viable strategies and counters, with one side claiming there are none, while the other is pointing out quite a few... with evidence I might add.
So... legit question here... why is there such pushback against the already stated counters? FBP doesn't get triggered by Kinetic, so damage can still be dealt during FBP if a disable or interrupt is not available. Again I'm failing to see any logic against the stated counters other than "my build doesn't support that".
Someone who specializes in pure Energy shouldn't expect it to be the I Win button 100% of the time. There is ALWAYS something out there that will slap you for it. In this case its FBP.
I'm gonna address this point specifically. The Queen is A BOSS. She's SUPPOSED to be difficult. The Voth are not bosses. Also... and I'm assuming you are referring directly to Hive Onslaught, you're on a team. Which means you have at least a 1 in 5 chance of a Subnuc being available to the team in the form of a Science teammate, which means teamwork. And that's at the bare minimum. Again, multiple counters have been listed. Using any of them or not is your CHOICE. Declaring that there is, as you put it, "literally nothing else to do" in such a way as to make it sound absolute is misleading as there are viable counters, and you're making it sound like this applies to ALL instances of FBP in the game, boss mob and trash mob.
I don't know if its been mentioned already, but I belive the Heavy Graviton Beam from the old MACO set might actually cause a short disable, which would cut off FBP because it offlines subsystems for a second. And unless you're relying on a set bonus to boost your energy damage, which I don't know of very many sets that do, its a viable, albet old, option.
So again... counters DO exist. Using them or not is by choice.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
And? Is that supposed to be some kind of problem? Some kind of conspiracy against EW builds?
It's not. But even if it was, it does not negate the fact that there are ways around the FBP that you guys are simply ignoring because you seem incapable of thinking outside the "pew pew pew vape everything in 30 secons flats" mentality.
90% of my characters runs around on EW builds - though most of them do have at least one torpedo, too.
The rest are EPG builds, because I find them fun to play but they're not my preferred style.
I never slack as far as dps go, and still I find absolutely no reason to complain about one of the last few things that forces people to actually pay attention and adjust to what's happening around them.
Once again, if stopping dpsing, changing target or only using torpedoes or non EW skills for a measly 15 seconds prove to be something people aren't willing to do then it's on them and not on the game.
As @rattler2 rightfully pointed out, AGAIN: counters do exist; using them or not is your choice.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Everytime there's been something added thats an attempt at countering there's a minor bump, such as the hurq nibblers being behind the frontal arc of fire. Kethi cruisers that can draw out a fight unless prioritised. Orb weavers that dump multiple orbs on a player making it next to impossible to target nodes. Yes those are minor hiccups but as with FBP all it took to figure out a response was to pay attention to a fight and do a tiny bit of thinking.
Counter for torps and gravwells? How about suggesting some options, instead of moaning about them being unfair.
Far from it. If a player makes the choice to run with only EW and nothing else to back them up then that player must accept that there will be FBP to put them out of action for 15 seconds (or the duration of the respawn timer if they're careless).
As has been said time and again, choice determines the options at a player's disposal. A refusal to adapt is a decision made by the player, and the player must take responsibility for that choice. It is not the fault of the game or a well established NPC ability that has been around since launch.
My current BoP Tac build is 80% EW (Grav Torps are too much fun) and based around flank attacks, but you won't find me complaining that Tzenkethi can just blink and make such things barely tickle. I have to accept that a head on attack is the only reliable way that build can damage them which means I have to be careful because the barrages from the bigger ships can very nearly swat my little raider out of the sky in an instant if I do not prepare properly.
Nor will my Patrol Escort main (88% EW and a Tac Officer) grumble about FBP because I took one look at that ability after getting insta-popped (my first encounter with a Galor shortly after launch if memory serves though that was 11 years ago, sheesh!), I figured "well that's nasty I better do something about that" so I read the description and swapped in some Torps, and played about with the Cardassian missions to work out how the npcs used it and ways to deal with those ships.
Looking at my roster I only have one Sci/EPG/Torp character and that was made during this years Delta Recruit run. I'm still not sure I like the concept because the playstyle is quite alien to my usual "pedal to the metal, cannon blazing", heck it flies backward to get a buff, what is with that?
They were envious of shrimps when they thought that out, don't you mind them!
Jokes aside, agreed 100% and very well put. And truly, if we start with stuff that works only with one specific form of weaponry or one specific ability, then we'll have to scratch half the damn game. THAT would be BS.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Rebuild for torpedoes so you don't have to deal with FBP? That's entirely unreasonable. Further they do not counter FBP. They ignore it because FBP doesn't interact with torpedoes, just like an EW ship can usually ignore FBP on every random science ships in the badlands.
I have torpedo builds. I'm not going to turn every one of my captains and ships into torpedo boats just because I might get Hive Onslaught or Borg Disconnected, via randomizer. Again, that is entirely unreasonable.
And you literally do not have to ever stop shooting running a torpedo or exotic build. It is, in your own words, an I win button 100% of the time. It therefore is not even reasonable to suggest that should be in the calculus. Double standards are no standards.
Interrupts/stuns do not stop FBP. Voth citadels are all bosses, in fact there's a Voth citadel boss ship right alongside a Borg diamond in Borg Disconnected. Having a sci captain in the team that knows how to use SNB to strip FBP is great, if it happens. It is not a reliable counter to get a random teammate that is science and knows what to do.
And no I'm not being anything but clear here. If you want to ignore that I started off in this thread talking about the Queen and the scaling issues with the damage, that's on you. FBP on normal lower level enemies in the badlands, which is almost the only other place in the game you find FBP outside of the Queen diamond is very rarely an actual problem if you have some healing. The scaling is absurd on the queen, but the fact remains you can't actually counter the FBP on random science ships in the Badlands either, as they spawn far too fast, always using FBP first, to actually be able to SNB or SNCW all of them, if you even have those tools available. At least with those you're not going to kill yourself in a single salvo, and you usually have something else you can shoot at too unlike the queen.
Player damage has consistently been going higher over the years. This makes the ridiculous scaling of FBP on the queen a bigger, more obvious problem versus years past. Meanwhile, the power is utter garbage on a player ship against NPC targets. This is not a well designed power. Why is it the only ability in the game that has a scripted warning telling you to stop shooting the queen? What is the argument against adjusting it?
Actual counters for FBP include subnucleonic Beam, subnucleonic carrier wave, and any ability that can shut down aux, which ridiculously we have to include target subsystem powers here which are not actually safe to use on an EW ship against the queen's FBP. Power drains themselves are basically ineffective without an absurd drain rating. Countering the damage from FBP can be done with healing, but that only really works on low rank enemies.
Counters for FBP do not include sitting on your hands or using specific weapons or builds. Those do not counter it, they avoid it and do not make for good gameplay responses to FBP. Using exotic damage or torpedoes when you aren't built for it is just a tickle with only a tiny part of your build set up to enhance them versus all the effort you put into making the EW part of your build potent, which means you're still stuck waiting for FBP to end.
Circumventing a mechanic by using something that it doesn't trigger on is still a viable counter. And you don't have to convert wholesale from energy to torpedo. Just swap maybe... one weapon out. Unless you're so obsessed with DPS that one torpedo is going to hurt your numbers... you're still doing damage.
This isn't a case of "trade your ENTIRE build to counter ONE ability". Its adapting to threats. Now maybe because I tend to have generalist balance builds most of these things aren't as much of a problem as some make it out to be, but no one said anything about swapping entire builds to counter FBP. Whats at issue now is the pushback against already established counters and tactics.
Why is there such a need to strike back at suggestions on how to deal with it that aren't the Nerf Bat as if it is heresy to even SUGGEST things that are already in game?
Its honestly like saying "to hell with mechanics, FULL ATTACK!"
Usually doesn't work out very well for the player in 99% games.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
But the inflexibility being shown makes it seem that such a suggestion would vanish like a windypop in a hurricane.
Counter is not the same as workaround. Not going to argue semantics, but when I say counter, I want something that nullifies, in part or in total, FBP, either removing FBP itself from the target, or by making the player immune to it for a duration, and I offered up simple suggestions towards that in a previous post.
I have maybe 20 characters. Some are torpedo builds, some are exotic builds, some are full EW builds, most are somewhere in between. What you're suggesting is that EW builds should not exist, everyone should generify their builds and have torpedoes, torpedo skills, or exotics just for that random chance you get Hive onslaught with no sci captain on the team. Or sit on your hands.
No other build needs to do that because FBP is only punishing to EW heavy builds. Why is it reasonable to suggest that full EW builds should not be full EW builds? Again, this is not an issue for any other build, torpedo, exotic, or hybrids in general.
I don't find it unreasonable to point out that FBP on the queen is wildly OP not just compared to a player's FBP, but the simple fact it can in fact kill an EW heavy ship with a single salvo leaving that player with no possibility to react to it to correct the mistake. This of course in contrast to non EW builds which can ignore the mechanic or at least with more limited energy weapons in their builds can survive it. That is a clear sign of something that is broken. Instant death abilities do not make good gameplay. What is the issue with pointing that out, and expecting some tweaks and changes?
Further, and I don't know the math on this, but it seems entirely possible that FBP is more punishing to some EW builds versus others. The L. B'rel I mentioned earlier is a flanker, and I use the console set to easily and quickly put myself behind bosses and groups for the flanking bonus. Is FPB hitting me with my own damage beefed up by the flanking modifier and other cat 2 bonuses or does it factor that out? Changing what damage gets calculated in FBP is not unreasonable, afterall positional damage like flanking is a representation of hitting vulnerable points, not actually increasing damage output from the weapons themselves so it doesn't make sense to reflect it.
I'm not even sure what you mean with this post. Changing from scatter volley to rapid fire does absolutely nothing for you against the Borg queen ship.
Semantics. FBP reflects energy damage. Doesn't really matter whether said energy is pulsed, or contiguous.
Kinetic (the game mechanic) is impact dmg. It cannot be reflected: not in real life, and not in STO. That's just physics. Lasers, for instance, funnily enough, actually also do kinetic dmg. But light can be reflected (every mirror can do it). You cannot reflect torpedo dmg, though. If a high-speed projectile hits you, you cannot send the energy back to sender. Only light/beam based stuff can be reflected. So, FBP on torps, other than for spite, makes no sense whatsoever.
That's not reflection, that's just Newton's third Law: if object A exerts a force on object B, object B also exerts an equal and opposite force on object A. (Or, if you insist, you could call mutual reflection.) Billiard balls ricochet off each other, because they don't break on impact. But when you're in a submarine, and someone fires a torpedo at you, and it impacts, it won't 'feedback' on the destroyer: you just simply die. There's simply no back-channel to send the kinetic dmg along. Light (lasers) are entirely different in that regard. The light, on impact, doesn't half destroy the mirror, and half the sender, but rather the light, and ALL the energy it carries, gets truly reflected entirely.
Now, ship hulls aren't mirrors, of course; but it's eminently more plausible for a hull to feedback some portion of beam energy than it is to assume a torpedo impact will somehow magically be fed back to the attacker.
I'm in the freaking diamond league, I don't need to "change my tune when I get melted in a couple of seconds" because, as I stated above, 90% of my builds are EW so I know full well what a FBP left unatteded can do - and in fact, guess what? I suffer from it even to this day, when I'm playing randomly or not paying attention.
Also, no one in this thread has EVER said "git gud"... we're simply pointing out that there are ways - established ways, well known ways, ways that have been there since the freaking game itself! - to avoid getting "melted in a couple of seconds".
The fact that some people are pushing back so hard against tactics that have worked since forever, are still working and will continue to work unless there is some fundamental change to how FBP works is not on US, but on you guys.
I will never say "git gud" to anyone, but I will say this: if you're dying because you're too inflexible to even contemplate the idea that what you're doing is at fault, it's not the game's problem. It's yours. You have all the power to choose to counteract what's killing you, and you aren't. Ask yourself why that is and maybe, just maybe, you'll find the solution to your problem.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I also want to counter the whole notion that FBP cannot be countered. Back in the day, Ionic Turbulence couldn't be countered; that was bad (for PvP-ers). FBP, however, doesn't even compare. You can counter FBP simply by not shooting blindly at the target that raises its FBP icon, or disengaging when you do. What's next? I wonder. Peeps asking the spacebar be pressed automagically? (As that would be the ultimate consequence of stubbornly not wanting to take your fingers off of it).
Frankly, this whole thread just feels silly. I wish it would get closed; or that the webmasters give us an option to unsubscribe from threads.
This whole argument of, "I demand the universe change so my self-inflicted straightjacket grants me freedom of movement! If not, then force everyone to feel my pain!" is getting tiresome.
What is the argument against changes? All I'm seeing amounts to leave it the way it is because change is bad.
Everyone knows you just stop shooting when the FBP warning comes up (what other enemy power needs a warning?) The issue, however, is that is a ridiculous solution that is only necessary because of a badly designed power and the way it scales.
Correct. And the majority of the posts here completely lost the point. Hence my lack of interest in reply anything here.
FBP on npcs is completely broken, especially in a fast paced solo content that when played in advanced or elite and you are on a escort or anything less resilient than an cruiser you will not have 15 seconds to sit around and look amidst the crazy amount of visual effects what damn ship is shining with that damn skill up. The bad U.I plus the lack of balance made this issue not the "kill everything" mentality. One volley, of a high powered EW build and you are done, even if you unselect the target or stop attacking.
And the more powerful you get the better are even your defensive stats. I often fly a t6 fleet tactical escort and without giving up an inch of my offensive power i can go over 100k/105k hull in combat, 15k shield, lots of shield and hull resistance/negation/absorption, that can easily go up 60% dmg resistance allowing me to solo advanced or elite content and yet you can die on a snap because of that cursed skill simply because devs here don't take a minute to check how skills they slap on NPCs will perform on anything above the regular difficulty.
And this is all I have to say about it.
Something that allows a ship to harness the power of a grav well and gain a boost from it might be interesting, although likely just another kethi cruiser situation where you kill that ship and then drop the well.
Aren't there a few universal consoles that do picard manouver style hops. Vague memory of a trait that has you blipping in and out of phase during evasive manouvers. Neither of those options would be that restrictive.
Simple solution, nerf mindless pewpew build options to reduce the damage they put out. Or get kurland to go full clippy and ask if you're sure you want to do that everytime you tap the spacebar.
No, all you're seeing is people telling you that the requested change is not necessary because there are already countermeasures in place that allows you to survive an FBP unscathed.
I don't need to offer any reason as to why it should remain the way it is, because there's no reason to change it in the first place.
All I'm seeing amounts to "change it, because I can't be bothered to adjust and so everyone else must adjust to MY way of playing".
As for the OP: none of the posts here have actually lost the point. We're simply refusing to bending to your will and say "ok, you're right". Something that you should've accounted for when you opened this thread.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Player incompetence and a player driven chase for dps is not a justification for changing a well documented mechanic that has been in place since launch.
It's well documented as not affecting those attack types. There are other powers and NPC types that mess with such play styles. Granted they do not do so in the same manner, but I've already made my point about this sort of false fairness argument a few posts earlier today.
Is your damage output capped? If not then why should it be when something reflects it back at you be capped?
Probably because that would remove some of the uniqueness of Sci captains and Intel ships and BOffs. "Once everyone's special no one will be!" - Syndrome
Maybe go back and actually read the responses to your posts rather than just what you want to take from them twisted to further your flawed argument? It's all there in white on black in three pages of thread.
Because you're not actually reading the responses, only what you want to read into them to suit your own flawed argument. It's all there in white on black in three pages of thread.
Generally power mechanics across MMOs (and videogames as a whole) have visual tells if you look for them. In boss fights they tend to be more overt. This is not unique to FBP in STO, pretending it is, is a fallacy and not justification for changing the mechanic.
That's your opinion.
There are four lights.
Now you finally say you don't want it to change, just because. Great. That's a position to take. No change because you don't agree with the many reasons to change it. The problem with that is you can't actually offer an argument for anyone else to agree with you, and see your perspective because its the null perspective. Just do nothing.
Yet at the same time, you're refusing to read what is written, and in fact imagining an argument not being made to argue against. At no point is the issue that FBP can't be dealt with to survive the duration. I personally have been dealing with FBP for more than 11 years. It isn't hard, its just stupid and is not good gameplay, nor good balance, nor good sense with the way FBP works versus everything else in the game, and has only gotten worse over the years thanks to increasing power creep and sensory overload.
I'm still waiting to hear an argument for keeping it the way it is, though.
I love life on easy street.
And this is all I have to say about it.
Yeah, no. The onus is on YOU to make a compelling case why the behavior of FBP is supposed to change -- not on Jenny to be on the defensive about why she (and many with her) feel it's fine 'as is.' And so far, you haven't even begun to make a cogent case. All your arguments pretty much amount to "Yeah, I know I can avoid FBP by disengaging, but dammit, I don't want to, because it's so unreasonable I pay actual attention to the field. OMG, the game is so broken!" It don't work that way.
I'll go a step further and say that other enemies have their own strengths and weaknesses as well. An enemy with high shields (Tzenkethi) are harder to fight with Torpedo heavy builds because shields mitigate so much kinetic damage. EPG builds require more cooldown management than other builds, and any enemy that can drain or disable your Aux power can cut into your effectiveness, such as Elachi. Therefore, keeping Feedback Pulse as is keeps some level of balance and continues to allow for there to be a good reason for hybridizing builds and actually putting defense on a build.
My 2EC on that point at least.
Thank you for the support, Mei. It's much appreciated. But to me this discussion is over. There's no point talking with a wall and this is, quite clearly, trying to talk to a wall. If they're content just whining to justify their unwillingness to lift their finger from the spacebar for just a few seconds, then so be it. I will continue to enjoy what little challenge the FBP offers together with what's left of anything remotely challenging, before this game - thanks to them and people like them who wants all to be served to them on a silver platter - goes even more down the drain in a storm of mindless nothing. It's very close to that, but it's not there yet.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I've read a few lines here and there, mentioning a couple of things seems justified.
1. Simply using other abilities isn't a counter. It's a bypass. One that still isn't cheap, easy to implement or - as can be seen from Cryptic's approach to character creation promotion - even wanted on all ships, for all characters that might run into damage reflection abilities. A true counter is (in this case) something like Subnucleonic beam.
2. Using other abilities that are, mostly, one-off things that you activate and which have lingering effects after activation, isn't in any way promoting thinking, situational awareness or whatever. Not anymore than 'pew pew pewing' with EW is. It's restricting what can be done, nothing more, despite some people apparently wanting to believe that their intelligence is boosted if they use EPG abilities or torpedoes. It's cute, really.
3. (Hence) when you want to promote using diverse tactics, reduce players' abilities to kill everything in mere seconds (which are all good goals!) or whatever, blocking EW's effectiveness but still allowing easy clicky stuff to do the job, isn't going to be a very logical approach.
Wait. This isn't new. These are facts, observations and related consequences that were contributed to the discussion early on and they're still standing.