FBP isn't a blocking wall. Its a timed trap. You could go through it and take the damage, but its going to disappear after 15s. So you twiddle your thumbs and wait, or power through it. There is no way around it unless you're a science captain or happen to be running a very specific intel power.
You're playing semantics, but thank you for pointing out exactly what I mean, there are other tactics to deal with it. Doing nothing isn't necessarily a failure, or waste, if that is a valid method of dealing with a tactic used by the opposition.
Just because the opposition won't melt away instantly isn't a flaw in the game, it's a flaw in expectation. That it does it by smashing you over the head with your own hammer is rather poignant, especially given the meta of hyper-dps. If a player are incapable of handling something like FBP then that's their problem and their shortcoming. Maybe they should adapt, rather than demanding the goalposts be moved?
I find this whole thread, quite frankly, hilarious.
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I find this whole thread, quite frankly, hilarious.
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
You say that as if it's an absolute immunity, which it isn't.
Are there no means of attacking that do not involve energy weapons? If there is but the player chooses not to make use of them then yes it is their fault, especially given the likelihood that they know exactly what they will be facing in any given encounter. I grant they are less likely to melt the target in an instant but that is no excuse.
Failing any of that are they completely incapable of evading or focussing on a different target for a mere 15 seconds and then opening fire on the FBP user with their vaunted dps? If they are incapable of exercising simple self control and situational awareness then it is their fault.
Refusing to adapt is a choice. If that causes an intolerable inconvenience then choose better.
I find this whole thread, quite frankly, hilarious.
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
Rather the opposite: problem is not that people can't fire at the target, but that they can't help themselves from firing at the target. As I stated above, the nature of NPC vs. player DPS generally makes FBP hit the player consideraby harder. So, either don't autofire, or disengage quickly (hitting TAB, for next target, usually does the trick fast enough).
The way FBP works is that while damage does get through, a percentage of the energy damage is reflected BACK at the attacker. So all those vape builds... tend to vaporize themselves against NPC FBP because Player HP does not equal NPC HP.
Science does have a counter in Subnuc, but I think most people would prefer the Nerf Bat because of the mentioned above mentality.
I find this whole thread, quite frankly, hilarious.
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
Rather the opposite: problem is not that people can't fire at the target, but that they can't help themselves from firing at the target. As I stated above, the nature of NPC vs. player DPS generally makes FBP hit the player consideraby harder. So, either don't autofire, or disengage quickly (hitting TAB, for next target, usually does the trick fast enough).
Agreed.
And most importantly, stopping for 15 seconds - or swapping target for the same amount of time - will not prevent you in any way from completing the objective.
In SWTOR there is a particular operation called "Ravagers"; the last boss of this operation has a mechanic in which he "kidnaps" one of the players and ANY damage done to him while the kidnapping - so to speak - is in progress will get reflected on the player affected. The tactic there is very simple: the raid leader call the "stop dps" for the durating of the whole affair, and people will wait and resume dpsing once the player is free.
Since the objective requires killing the target, by your same reasoning @fleetcaptain5#1134, then that operation would never be completed because the players would simply die at the hands of the other raiders. Yet, inexperienced players make that mistake almost every time (because they don't know about it), once they learn what to do... guess what? They simply do it.
And we're talking about something immensely more difficult than a simple patrol or any of the queues we have in STO.
If they can do it, after getting past a boss that has been named the "maker or breaker of raiding teams" making that very same operation so difficult that it does not come in the highest difficulty the game has to offer, why can't people in this game simply refrain from DPSing something for 15 measly seconds?
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
If people can't avoid a target with scatter volley or FAW then all abilities involved would be working as intended on both sides of the fight.
Please can you clarify your point? It seems like you're saying that it is therefore unfair an "indiscriminately shoot all the things" ability indiscriminately shoots all the things?
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
You say that as if it's an absolute immunity, which it isn't.
Are there no means of attacking that do not involve energy weapons? If there is but the player chooses not to make use of them then yes it is their fault, especially given the likelihood that they know exactly what they will be facing in any given encounter. I grant they are less likely to melt the target in an instant but that is no excuse.
Failing any of that are they completely incapable of evading or focussing on a different target for a mere 15 seconds and then opening fire on the FBP user with their vaunted dps? If they are incapable of exercising simple self control and situational awareness then it is their fault.
Refusing to adapt is a choice. If that causes an intolerable inconvenience then choose better.
I don't know about you, but I have certain builds on specific characters. I don't keep all sorts of exotic abilities and related gear and traits lying around on an energy toon when I have dedicated EPG characters.
And this is what Cryptic encourages: to create new characters (hence all the recruitment events and different factions), which will have limited skill points and thus require some degree of specialisation.
Which is all fine, but then you shouldn't create missions with enemies in them where players are punished for making such choices. You can't expect players to completely change their build based on an enemy they might encounter (and no, you can't always know that in advance since we have the random TFO system).
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
The way FBP works is that while damage does get through, a percentage of the energy damage is reflected BACK at the attacker. So all those vape builds... tend to vaporize themselves against NPC FBP because Player HP does not equal NPC HP.
Science does have a counter in Subnuc, but I think most people would prefer the Nerf Bat because of the mentioned above mentality.
That is exactly the problem. If you're going to create a game where 99% of the content consists of HP sponges and require players to deal damage to remove those hit points, it is pretty lame to then punish them for being effective in that regard.
But apparently people think it's reasonable that players have gear, traits and boosters for three different kinds of builds laying around - on each single character.
I doubt that's how most people approach the game and how Cryptic wanted things to be. There's a reason why we can create new characters after all, and why we're encouraged to do so. What's the point of having different characters if they all need to be able to use every kind of build to be effective?
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
The way FBP works is that while damage does get through, a percentage of the energy damage is reflected BACK at the attacker. So all those vape builds... tend to vaporize themselves against NPC FBP because Player HP does not equal NPC HP.
Science does have a counter in Subnuc, but I think most people would prefer the Nerf Bat because of the mentioned above mentality.
That is exactly the problem. If you're going to create a game where 99% of the content consists of HP sponges and require players to deal damage to remove those hit points, it is pretty lame to then punish them for being effective in that regard.
But apparently people think it's reasonable that players have gear, traits and boosters for three different kinds of builds laying around - on each single character.
I doubt that's how most people approach the game and how Cryptic wanted things to be. There's a reason why we can create new characters after all, and why we're encouraged to do so. What's the point of having different characters if they all need to be able to use every kind of build to be effective?
No, people think it's reasonable that players don't blindly spam their spacebar, and ever-so often pay attention to what's actually happening. Also known as L2P.
I find this whole thread, quite frankly, hilarious.
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
Rather the opposite: problem is not that people can't fire at the target, but that they can't help themselves from firing at the target. As I stated above, the nature of NPC vs. player DPS generally makes FBP hit the player consideraby harder. So, either don't autofire, or disengage quickly (hitting TAB, for next target, usually does the trick fast enough).
Agreed.
And most importantly, stopping for 15 seconds - or swapping target for the same amount of time - will not prevent you in any way from completing the objective.
In SWTOR there is a particular operation called "Ravagers"; the last boss of this operation has a mechanic in which he "kidnaps" one of the players and ANY damage done to him while the kidnapping - so to speak - is in progress will get reflected on the player affected. The tactic there is very simple: the raid leader call the "stop dps" for the durating of the whole affair, and people will wait and resume dpsing once the player is free.
Since the objective requires killing the target, by your same reasoning @fleetcaptain5#1134, then that operation would never be completed because the players would simply die at the hands of the other raiders. Yet, inexperienced players make that mistake almost every time (because they don't know about it), once they learn what to do... guess what? They simply do it.
And we're talking about something immensely more difficult than a simple patrol or any of the queues we have in STO.
If they can do it, after getting past a boss that has been named the "maker or breaker of raiding teams" making that very same operation so difficult that it does not come in the highest difficulty the game has to offer, why can't people in this game simply refrain from DPSing something for 15 measly seconds?
It may not prevent players from completing the objective. But does it make sense to you to require players - who log on to play a game - to just disengage and do nothing for 15 seconds whenever an NPC uses some sort of reflection ability?
It's funny how some see the need to explain that you can disengage. The problem isn't that people don't know that you can do this, the problem is that players who log on to the game, want to play it. Not watch buff icons' cooldown timers disappear.
I'll repeat: good game design means that players and NPC's can and have to react to each other. That's something entirely different from 'I have to be able to vaporise everything NOWW!'. It's a request for dynamic content that allows players to meaningfully react to what's happening on the screen (simply put: to have counters to enemy abilities). Instead of being told to basically watch a movie. Cause that's what it boils down to when you tell players to just wait and sit out some buff.
I'm surprised I have to point out the importance of this very basic feature of interactive content so often. Players don't play video games because they want to watch the screen and have the content develop with no way to influence what is happening. If they did, they'd be watching a movie. This really is the most important criterion that games should meet - and FBP-like abilities violate that important principle.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
The way FBP works is that while damage does get through, a percentage of the energy damage is reflected BACK at the attacker. So all those vape builds... tend to vaporize themselves against NPC FBP because Player HP does not equal NPC HP.
Science does have a counter in Subnuc, but I think most people would prefer the Nerf Bat because of the mentioned above mentality.
That is exactly the problem. If you're going to create a game where 99% of the content consists of HP sponges and require players to deal damage to remove those hit points, it is pretty lame to then punish them for being effective in that regard.
But apparently people think it's reasonable that players have gear, traits and boosters for three different kinds of builds laying around - on each single character.
I doubt that's how most people approach the game and how Cryptic wanted things to be. There's a reason why we can create new characters after all, and why we're encouraged to do so. What's the point of having different characters if they all need to be able to use every kind of build to be effective?
No, people think it's reasonable that players don't blindly spam their spacebar, and ever-so often pay attention to what's actually happening. Also known as L2P.
As stated before, part of the issue is that blindlessly spamming spacebar is basically what 99% of the game consists of.
To be effective in 99% of the game, that is what you have to do. So yeah, if you're going to say that players either need to wait for the buff to disappear OR use other types of abilities, then the implication is that they need to have multiple, different builds on all of their toons - if you don't want to force that first option upon them. It's that simple.
And telling people to stop playing has nothing to do with learning how to play. I think we can also stop pretending that disengaging requires some godly degree of insight into what's happening. The point is that disengaging isn't a serious solution because then you might as well advise players to hit Alt + F4.
If people really wanted to promote situational awareness, the change to advocate would be to really reward such situational awareness by giving players an option to deal with the situation. I've already given examples above. Voth Bulwark's for instance, can be attacked from the other side.
That's rewarding situational awareness and learning people how to play: first they are hit by something, then you promote their finding a way around it. Literally, in this case.
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother
I find this whole thread, quite frankly, hilarious.
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
Rather the opposite: problem is not that people can't fire at the target, but that they can't help themselves from firing at the target. As I stated above, the nature of NPC vs. player DPS generally makes FBP hit the player consideraby harder. So, either don't autofire, or disengage quickly (hitting TAB, for next target, usually does the trick fast enough).
Agreed.
And most importantly, stopping for 15 seconds - or swapping target for the same amount of time - will not prevent you in any way from completing the objective.
In SWTOR there is a particular operation called "Ravagers"; the last boss of this operation has a mechanic in which he "kidnaps" one of the players and ANY damage done to him while the kidnapping - so to speak - is in progress will get reflected on the player affected. The tactic there is very simple: the raid leader call the "stop dps" for the durating of the whole affair, and people will wait and resume dpsing once the player is free.
Since the objective requires killing the target, by your same reasoning @fleetcaptain5#1134, then that operation would never be completed because the players would simply die at the hands of the other raiders. Yet, inexperienced players make that mistake almost every time (because they don't know about it), once they learn what to do... guess what? They simply do it.
And we're talking about something immensely more difficult than a simple patrol or any of the queues we have in STO.
If they can do it, after getting past a boss that has been named the "maker or breaker of raiding teams" making that very same operation so difficult that it does not come in the highest difficulty the game has to offer, why can't people in this game simply refrain from DPSing something for 15 measly seconds?
It may not prevent players from completing the objective. But does it make sense to you to require players - who log on to play a game - to just disengage and do nothing for 15 seconds whenever an NPC uses some sort of reflection ability?
It's funny how some see the need to explain that you can disengage. The problem isn't that people don't know that you can do this, the problem is that players who log on to the game, want to play it. Not watch buff icons' cooldown timers disappear.
I'll repeat: good game design means that players and NPC's can and have to react to each other. That's something entirely different from 'I have to be able to vaporise everything NOWW!'. It's a request for dynamic content that allows players to meaningfully react to what's happening on the screen (simply put: to have counters to enemy abilities). Instead of being told to basically watch a movie. Cause that's what it boils down to when you tell players to just wait and sit out some buff.
I'm surprised I have to point out the importance of this very basic feature of interactive content so often. Players don't play video games because they want to watch the screen and have the content develop with no way to influence what is happening. If they did, they'd be watching a movie. This really is the most important criterion that games should meet - and FBP-like abilities violate that important principle.
What you don't seem to understand is that stopping DPSing or swapping target IS a reaction. And a perfectly good one at that.
If you can't admit that it's a solid tactic in response to a very well known and incredibly easy to circumvent mechanic, then I'm afraid you will never understand what people are trying to say here, which is also incredibly simple: you have to pay attention to what's happening around you and adapt to the situation.
Stopping for 15 seconds is not gonna do anything to disrupt the enjoyment of your playthrough... and if it does, then that's on you and not on the game.
There are so few things in STO that actually requires people to THINK and pay attention, and you'd do away with one of them simply because you cba to react how you're supposed to as opposed to just vaping everything in fron of you in a manner of seconds.
And truly, "watch the screen and have the content develop with no way to influence what is happening"? ROFL, truly? Because you have to stop dpsing one target and/or swapping to another for 15 seconds?
We have no way to influence ANYTHING that is happening in this game except for some really minor, and completely incosequential, choices... reacting to a combat situation is actually the only influence we have, and even that is severly limited by the scripted ending of every encounter.
FBP does not violate anything, because what you "cited" is not "an important principle"... but I guess you're one of those types that skip every cutscene - after all, you want to play a game, not watch a movie, right? - and then get to the end while wondering all the time what the hell is happening.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
FBP can be dealt with very easily. That isn't the problem. The problem is that the way to deal with it is to sit on your hands. That's a stupid solution.
Inactivity is not a rational component of gameplay in anything but a stealth game where you're waiting for guard patrols or something. If you're asking the player to do nothing, you're doing it wrong. Why do you play a game to do nothing? STO is clearly an action RPG game where pew pew is constant, and highly encouraged.
FBP should have an ACTIVE counter that any ship can use/slot. If you think energy builds are mindless spamming, then torpedo or exotic builds are most definitely more mindless. They never have to not shoot as there is no FBP that affects torps or grav wells.
Maybe it could be polarize hull that brings FPB damage down to a maximum of 1k per pulse. Maybe using a tachyon beam or tractor beam confuses the FBP pulse so it won't affect you while using them. Maybe using subsystem targeting: aux will guarantee a FBP cleanse if it is active. Any of those offer actual strategy and counterplay versus sitting idly.
The kicker here is that many builds can essentially actively counter FBP from weak targets by simply healing through it and ignoring the mechanic entirely, however this doesn't work on all targets, like the Borg Queen which if you shoot through it, depending on your build, you can instantly die in a single volley. Instant death is also a bad mechanic as there is no counterplay, except to not play.
Seriously, think about this. If I'm on an eng or tac and running the Hive STF, I watch for FBP and then deselect the target and sit on my hands until I see the icon disappear. If I'm on a sci, I watch for FBP like a hawk with my finger on the SNB button and no one has to stop shooting. Which is better gameplay?
Again it isn't that FBP can't be dealt with, its that the way to deal with it is awful game design.
Right, because FBP somehow prevents you for targeting something else...
Once again, this entire thread is hilarious - or hilariously ridiculous, whichever you prefer.
Enjoy the rest of your discussion. I'm done wasting time screaming at the void.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Seriously, think about this. If I'm on an eng or tac and running the Hive STF, I watch for FBP and then deselect the target and sit on my hands until I see the icon disappear. If I'm on a sci, I watch for FBP like a hawk with my finger on the SNB button and no one has to stop shooting. Which is better gameplay?
Then as an Eng or Tac you haven't considered options beyond merely using energy weapons, nor have you prepared for the opposition you expect to face. Or is there a fundamental law that says once you've committed to a build it's illegal to change it in any way, shape or form?
What you're proposing is that the game is flawed because the players are too lazy to bother to do anything beyond engage in wilful ignorance.
Do nothing?
Engineering: Aceton Beam (core), Let it Go (seasonal event), Structural Integrity Collapse (lockbox)
Do nothing??
Science: Destabilizing Resonance Beam (mission reward Lt and LtC easily available), Tractor Beam (core), Tyken's Rift (core)
Do nothing???
Tactical: Torpedo Spread (core), Torpedo High Yield (core)
Do nothing????
Temporal Operative: Take your pick, just about half the abilities at any tier do physical damage without triggering FBP
Do nothing?????
Intel: Electromagnetic Pulse Probe, Subnucleonic Carrier Wave, Transporter Warhead (all core)
Do nothing??????
Miracle Worker: Destabilize Warp Core (core)
Do nothing?!?!?!?!?
Command: Call Emergency Artillery, Concentrate Firepower (granted more a team buff, but at least it's contributing to the damage output while you sit on you oh so itchy hands.) (all core)
Do nothing?!?!?!?!?!?!!!
Pilot: Subspace Boom, Call Reinforcement Squadron, Coolant Ignition (all core) I'm sure there's more if you delve the lockbox content, though I appreciate that may not be everyone's preference.
If tinkering with BOff skills is too much to ask, we have torps and mines near enough thrown at us like hail from missions and reps. There are set abilities and summoning devices. If you want to really scrape the barrel there's even the old Borg Cutting Beam from the Omega Rep.
So apparently your option is still to do nothing?
This is why the argument you present is so fundamentally flawed. The game give us a massive arsenal of options to do something in those 15 seconds to attack or counter, but because it's not handed to you on a plate with a little fire-and-forget bow on you consider it unfair, dysfunctional and damaging to your vaunted dps.
But I suppose, the only true option is to disengage brain and do nothing! Hu-friken-manity!
It is not the game's flaw if you deliberately hobble yourself, it's yours.
If people can't avoid a target with scatter volley or FAW then all abilities involved would be working as intended on both sides of the fight.
Please can you clarify your point? It seems like you're saying that it is therefore unfair an "indiscriminately shoot all the things" ability indiscriminately shoots all the things?
It was a roundabout way of suggesting that its a players inflexibility or unwillingness to adjust tactics that's at fault if SV, FAW and FBP are all working the way they're meant to. People tend to get a wee bit uppity if you suggest that their precious pewpew addiction might be the root of their problems.
There's only so many ways to suggest to someone that going into the same patrol and using the same tactic to kill themselves over and over and over is their their choice. If they're too rigid to adjust playstyle they're likely just as rigid towards suggestions that its them at fault.
The way FBP works is that while damage does get through, a percentage of the energy damage is reflected BACK at the attacker. So all those vape builds... tend to vaporize themselves against NPC FBP because Player HP does not equal NPC HP.
Science does have a counter in Subnuc, but I think most people would prefer the Nerf Bat because of the mentioned above mentality.
That is exactly the problem. If you're going to create a game where 99% of the content consists of HP sponges and require players to deal damage to remove those hit points, it is pretty lame to then punish them for being effective in that regard.
But apparently people think it's reasonable that players have gear, traits and boosters for three different kinds of builds laying around - on each single character.
I doubt that's how most people approach the game and how Cryptic wanted things to be. There's a reason why we can create new characters after all, and why we're encouraged to do so. What's the point of having different characters if they all need to be able to use every kind of build to be effective?
No, people think it's reasonable that players don't blindly spam their spacebar, and ever-so often pay attention to what's actually happening. Also known as L2P.
As stated before, part of the issue is that blindlessly spamming spacebar is basically what 99% of the game consists of.
Zactly. The game already requires you to use your brain for only like 1% of the time, and NPCs generally don't put up any fight at all. (Like sometimes a NPC crits, and it's so rare, that you immediately think "Wow, glad their not doing THAT too often.")
To be effective in 99% of the game, that is what you have to do. So yeah, if you're going to say that players either need to wait for the buff to disappear OR use other types of abilities, then the implication is that they need to have multiple, different builds on all of their toons - if you don't want to force that first option upon them. It's that simple.
Hyperbole much? Just switching targets, for a moment, or take your fingers off the spacebar, does not equate to having 'multiple, different builds on all of their toon.'
And telling people to stop playing has nothing to do with learning how to play. I think we can also stop pretending that disengaging requires some godly degree of insight into what's happening. The point is that disengaging isn't a serious solution because then you might as well advise players to hit Alt + F4.
Again, hyperbole much? Telling ppl to disengage firing, for a moment, because the situation has (temporarily) changed, is not the same as suggesting 'players to hit Alt + F4.' They're not supposed to stop playing, but to adapt their play, for the brief duration of FBP.
If people really wanted to promote situational awareness, the change to advocate would be to really reward such situational awareness by giving players an option to deal with the situation. I've already given exampLes above. Voth Bulwark's for instance, can be attacked from the other side.
Zactly. So, what's your problem then? If ppl know enough not to blast at a Bulwark/Citadel when its Deflection shield is up, they can learn to switch targets during FBP.
That's rewarding situational awareness and learning people how to play: first they are hit by something, then you promote their finding a way around it. Literally, in this case.
Your arguments are tantamount to suggesting it's fair for a real-life pilot to fly straight into a mountain, because 99% of the time he's just flying forward. Finding a way around it, literally, in this case, is precisely what L2P is all about. And the game only requires us to do so, in that 1% of all cases.
Ok... so... I'm getting mixed messages from the "anti-FBP" side that seems to ignore every listed viable tactic in favor of "You're not doing anything therefore you're not playing"? It seems to ignore the fact that most of the time you're fighting a GROUP of enemies, not a single target, so switching targets to one that is not actively using FBP is a viable tactic. And then to bring up going around the Voth Reflector, which for all intents and purposes is a directional, perfect FBP... so... are you advocating for adapting tactics to the situation or NOT adapting tactics for the situation? I'm confused.
[vent]
All I'm getting right now from one side as a counter to the other is "MOAR DAKKA because reasons" and "FBP has no counter outside one ability, and Kenitic Damage is not a counter". Yet as stated above, there's actually quite a few ways to deal damage without triggering FBP. But again the response is "there is no counter, you're just sitting on your hands doing NOTHING, therefor just quit the game." I fail to see ANY logic at all in that argument whatsoever. FBP does promote situational awareness, just like the Voth Reflector. Yet... it doesn't because you can't just fly around it to continue using your energy weapons? I am seriously confused on what the message is here. Because honestly all I'm getting is "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
The fact of the matter is there are viable counters, and the easiest one that doesn't require any special builds or anything, that is literally FREE TO EVERYONE... is to just not shoot the dang glowy ship! No EC investment of any kind needed! Its literally the cheepest counter in the game!
I don't mean to sound crass right now, but the only reason I can think of for arguing against any counter and talking about how not shooting it is not a solution... is the DPS mentality of "vape everything in sight. Got a problem? Shoot it." So we got an ability in game that actually hurts you to blindly DPS... and short of being a Sci with Subnuc there's no counter? *looks at the listed counters* Uh huh... sitting on your hands doing nothing... *again looks at the listed counters* Might as well just Alt F4... I'm sorry... that does not compute. It makes NO sense.
[/vent]
Ok... got it out of my system now. I should be good for a while. Still confused as hell... but I'm good.
Feedback Pulse is kinda like Vaadwaur Mines, Tzenkethi Shield Repair abilities, Borg Shield Drains, Fek'hiri pet and console abilities, Mo'Kai Viral impulse Bursts, and of course, Hur'q and Voth immunities. They can all keep you on your toes a bit. I like that and I don't want that changed.
I can't think of a single build among all of my characters that doesn't have some support and defensive abilities. FBP is a good time for me to target a different enemy for a moment, or I can click/keypress any weapon once to disable auto-fire of my auto-fire weapons and combine that last one with targeting an ally for a heal or buff ability...or activate any of my own support skills, like Tractor Beams, polarize hull, Reverse Shield Polarity, etc. Shockingly, having a DEW only build does not prevent you from keeping a smaller amount of defense and support abilities on the build, even if they're not quite as effective as if they were on tank, support, or exotic focused min-max builds.
It's been a long time since I completely wiped myself out on a Feedback Pulse. I have options, and all while still pulling well more than my own weight on the parser.
And finally, 15 Seconds is just not a long time.
Call me "El," she/her only. I love my wife and I don't care who knows it!
Right, because FBP somehow prevents you for targeting something else...
Once again, this entire thread is hilarious - or hilariously ridiculous, whichever you prefer.
Enjoy the rest of your discussion. I'm done wasting time screaming at the void.
Yes, in badlands that advice is often fine, but badlands FBP is nothing compared to the Borg Queen. But what else is there to target when fighting the Borg Queen ship where FBP is a death sentence?
Ok... so... I'm getting mixed messages from the "anti-FBP" side that seems to ignore every listed viable tactic in favor of "You're not doing anything therefore you're not playing"? It seems to ignore the fact that most of the time you're fighting a GROUP of enemies, not a single target, so switching targets to one that is not actively using FBP is a viable tactic. And then to bring up going around the Voth Reflector, which for all intents and purposes is a directional, perfect FBP... so... are you advocating for adapting tactics to the situation or NOT adapting tactics for the situation? I'm confused.
Again, Borg queen stands alone, there is nothing to do there. Voth shields are fine, yes, because you can go around them, even engage them while moving to get them to shield on the side you are already leaving. For a Voth shield I stop firing and fly to the other side. That is actual gameplay, as opposed to the queen where there is literally nothing else to do. Yet Voth shields also aren't instant death for a high DPS build, the queen can be.
Seriously, think about this. If I'm on an eng or tac and running the Hive STF, I watch for FBP and then deselect the target and sit on my hands until I see the icon disappear. If I'm on a sci, I watch for FBP like a hawk with my finger on the SNB button and no one has to stop shooting. Which is better gameplay?
Then as an Eng or Tac you haven't considered options beyond merely using energy weapons, nor have you prepared for the opposition you expect to face. Or is there a fundamental law that says once you've committed to a build it's illegal to change it in any way, shape or form?
What you're proposing is that the game is flawed because the players are too lazy to bother to do anything beyond engage in wilful ignorance.
Do nothing?
Engineering: Aceton Beam (core), Let it Go (seasonal event), Structural Integrity Collapse (lockbox)
Do nothing??
Science: Destabilizing Resonance Beam (mission reward Lt and LtC easily available), Tractor Beam (core), Tyken's Rift (core)
Do nothing???
Tactical: Torpedo Spread (core), Torpedo High Yield (core)
Do nothing????
Temporal Operative: Take your pick, just about half the abilities at any tier do physical damage without triggering FBP
Do nothing?????
Intel: Electromagnetic Pulse Probe, Subnucleonic Carrier Wave, Transporter Warhead (all core)
Do nothing??????
Miracle Worker: Destabilize Warp Core (core)
Do nothing?!?!?!?!?
Command: Call Emergency Artillery, Concentrate Firepower (granted more a team buff, but at least it's contributing to the damage output while you sit on you oh so itchy hands.) (all core)
Do nothing?!?!?!?!?!?!!!
Pilot: Subspace Boom, Call Reinforcement Squadron, Coolant Ignition (all core) I'm sure there's more if you delve the lockbox content, though I appreciate that may not be everyone's preference.
If tinkering with BOff skills is too much to ask, we have torps and mines near enough thrown at us like hail from missions and reps. There are set abilities and summoning devices. If you want to really scrape the barrel there's even the old Borg Cutting Beam from the Omega Rep.
So apparently your option is still to do nothing?
This is why the argument you present is so fundamentally flawed. The game give us a massive arsenal of options to do something in those 15 seconds to attack or counter, but because it's not handed to you on a plate with a little fire-and-forget bow on you consider it unfair, dysfunctional and damaging to your vaunted dps.
But I suppose, the only true option is to disengage brain and do nothing! Hu-friken-manity!
It is not the game's flaw if you deliberately hobble yourself, it's yours.
Are you serious? You expect someone to change from an EW build to an exotic or torpedo build in the middle of a STF, and while in Red alert status? Even for an exotic build most of what you listed is insignificant damage and is in no way going to kill that ship under FBP.
That was patently absurd.
Worse is the childish personal attacks and the mind reading nonsense. Yes surely it must be my precious DPS when I have never once parsed my DPS and have no clue what it is. Lets completely ignore everything I'm saying and invent the true motive.
I'm also struck that not one of the people disagreeing has said a thing about FBP's damage potential, as if toning it down some is an unreasonable impossibility too.
@foxrockssocks: keep your shirt on, it's not worth to get pissed over some people who refuse to accept simple facts, because of their own agenda. And i agree, btw, the solutions are ignorant, borderline insulting.
[/quote]And what abilities do enemies use that have the same effect on EPG or torp builds?[/quote]
This is the bottom line of this thread, obviously, so lets adress it.
Are you serious? You expect someone to change from an EW build to an exotic or torpedo build in the middle of a STF, and while in Red alert status? Even for an exotic build most of what you listed is insignificant damage and is in no way going to kill that ship under FBP.
That was patently absurd.
Did I say in the middle of a STF? No, no I did not. Do be so melodramatic. I did say you could prepare beforehand, you know like before you click on that join button? Nor did I say you should rewrite an entire build, just consider adding in something to account for when FBP is used so that you are actually useful. It's called planning, something people generally make use of before doing anything, unless they're being lazy.
Nor am I expecting that any of those abilities will suddenly turn your ship into an FBP ignoring death machine. But you claimed you could do nothing while FBP was active and you now have a nice list of examples of things you could make use of.
Though I would observe that for someone claiming to be so dismissive of your own dps it is curious that you dismiss these abilities for being unable to kill a ship.
Is there a law against tailoring a build before running a STF?
I'm also struck that not one of the people disagreeing has said a thing about FBP's damage potential, as if toning it down some is an unreasonable impossibility too.
Because turning it into a tickle makes it pointless. That's already been pointed out in this thread about the player version.
Right, because FBP somehow prevents you for targeting something else...
Once again, this entire thread is hilarious - or hilariously ridiculous, whichever you prefer.
Enjoy the rest of your discussion. I'm done wasting time screaming at the void.
And what abilities do enemies use that have the same effect on EPG or torp builds?
There's quite a few that have stun and disabling effects, various system offline abilities that turn an action bar into a a bunch of dead buttons which can be fatal to a Sci build that generally survives on its tricks.
@foxrockssocks: keep your shirt on, it's not worth to get pissed over some people who refuse to accept simple facts, because of their own agenda. And i agree, btw, the solutions are ignorant, borderline insulting.
I do like it how the the nerf-FBP advocates call me absurd and ignorant, or "refuse to accept simple facts" yet they are the ones that are refusing to adapt. You have a choice, ride your one trick pony and accept it won't be doing anything other than that one trick, or adapt.
Nor do I have "an agenda", that's really funny actually, me have an agenda! I hate to break it to you Sunshine you're barking up the wrong tree if you think there's an agenda here.
Either way I can see from your response you're clearly too set in your ways to even consider thinking your way around the problem without crying foul on everyone else and demanding the goalposts be moved instead. Good luck with that.
Yeah, your agenda is to troll the post, that much is obvious. I call your "suggestions" ignorant and insulting, because every 2 hour newbie knows how to deselect a target or stop autofire (or did you think that this "tactic" is some sort of inovation?). And btw, what you mention are not "tricks", but your main offensive powers, which don't have any counter that blows you up in 0.1 sec.
Comments
Just because the opposition won't melt away instantly isn't a flaw in the game, it's a flaw in expectation. That it does it by smashing you over the head with your own hammer is rather poignant, especially given the meta of hyper-dps. If a player are incapable of handling something like FBP then that's their problem and their shortcoming. Maybe they should adapt, rather than demanding the goalposts be moved?
Many here have never raided or never played a game that required the use of tactics, and it shows.
FBP is a pain in the TRIBBLE... if you're not paying attention to what is happening, that is. Sure, in a group it can be more difficult to discern what's happening because of the wave-after-wave mechanic that the "devs" of this game seems to love so much, but it's all a question of learning who does what and to adapt accordingly.
Ultimately, this is the result of the very poor turn the game took in terms of difficulty and challenge: everything is just "pew pew pew everything dies the end", and people like the OP wants it to be that way and since they are the most vocal minority, that is what the game is all about, nowadays.
The question is not "why is the FBP on NPCs so damaging?" but "why can't I stop shooting for 15 seconds on a target?".
When the OP can safely answer that question with anything different than "because I cannot bear to not trash everything in 30 seconds flats and I won't ever bother with tactics and mechanics" THEN, and only then, they will find a solution to this "problem".
Nerfing FBP on NPCs is NOT that solution.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
That question is easily answered though. Because all objectives require killing a target and, hence, shooting at it.
It's not the players' fault that they need to shoot at the target, but can't.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
Are there no means of attacking that do not involve energy weapons? If there is but the player chooses not to make use of them then yes it is their fault, especially given the likelihood that they know exactly what they will be facing in any given encounter. I grant they are less likely to melt the target in an instant but that is no excuse.
Failing any of that are they completely incapable of evading or focussing on a different target for a mere 15 seconds and then opening fire on the FBP user with their vaunted dps? If they are incapable of exercising simple self control and situational awareness then it is their fault.
Refusing to adapt is a choice. If that causes an intolerable inconvenience then choose better.
Rather the opposite: problem is not that people can't fire at the target, but that they can't help themselves from firing at the target.
Science does have a counter in Subnuc, but I think most people would prefer the Nerf Bat because of the mentioned above mentality.
Agreed.
And most importantly, stopping for 15 seconds - or swapping target for the same amount of time - will not prevent you in any way from completing the objective.
In SWTOR there is a particular operation called "Ravagers"; the last boss of this operation has a mechanic in which he "kidnaps" one of the players and ANY damage done to him while the kidnapping - so to speak - is in progress will get reflected on the player affected. The tactic there is very simple: the raid leader call the "stop dps" for the durating of the whole affair, and people will wait and resume dpsing once the player is free.
Since the objective requires killing the target, by your same reasoning @fleetcaptain5#1134, then that operation would never be completed because the players would simply die at the hands of the other raiders. Yet, inexperienced players make that mistake almost every time (because they don't know about it), once they learn what to do... guess what? They simply do it.
And we're talking about something immensely more difficult than a simple patrol or any of the queues we have in STO.
If they can do it, after getting past a boss that has been named the "maker or breaker of raiding teams" making that very same operation so difficult that it does not come in the highest difficulty the game has to offer, why can't people in this game simply refrain from DPSing something for 15 measly seconds?
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
This gives new meaning to the term vape build
Vape Builds - When you want everything to die, and we do mean everything
Please can you clarify your point? It seems like you're saying that it is therefore unfair an "indiscriminately shoot all the things" ability indiscriminately shoots all the things?
I don't know about you, but I have certain builds on specific characters. I don't keep all sorts of exotic abilities and related gear and traits lying around on an energy toon when I have dedicated EPG characters.
And this is what Cryptic encourages: to create new characters (hence all the recruitment events and different factions), which will have limited skill points and thus require some degree of specialisation.
Which is all fine, but then you shouldn't create missions with enemies in them where players are punished for making such choices. You can't expect players to completely change their build based on an enemy they might encounter (and no, you can't always know that in advance since we have the random TFO system).
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
That is exactly the problem. If you're going to create a game where 99% of the content consists of HP sponges and require players to deal damage to remove those hit points, it is pretty lame to then punish them for being effective in that regard.
But apparently people think it's reasonable that players have gear, traits and boosters for three different kinds of builds laying around - on each single character.
I doubt that's how most people approach the game and how Cryptic wanted things to be. There's a reason why we can create new characters after all, and why we're encouraged to do so. What's the point of having different characters if they all need to be able to use every kind of build to be effective?
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
No, people think it's reasonable that players don't blindly spam their spacebar, and ever-so often pay attention to what's actually happening. Also known as L2P.
It may not prevent players from completing the objective. But does it make sense to you to require players - who log on to play a game - to just disengage and do nothing for 15 seconds whenever an NPC uses some sort of reflection ability?
It's funny how some see the need to explain that you can disengage. The problem isn't that people don't know that you can do this, the problem is that players who log on to the game, want to play it. Not watch buff icons' cooldown timers disappear.
I'll repeat: good game design means that players and NPC's can and have to react to each other. That's something entirely different from 'I have to be able to vaporise everything NOWW!'. It's a request for dynamic content that allows players to meaningfully react to what's happening on the screen (simply put: to have counters to enemy abilities). Instead of being told to basically watch a movie. Cause that's what it boils down to when you tell players to just wait and sit out some buff.
I'm surprised I have to point out the importance of this very basic feature of interactive content so often. Players don't play video games because they want to watch the screen and have the content develop with no way to influence what is happening. If they did, they'd be watching a movie. This really is the most important criterion that games should meet - and FBP-like abilities violate that important principle.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
As stated before, part of the issue is that blindlessly spamming spacebar is basically what 99% of the game consists of.
To be effective in 99% of the game, that is what you have to do. So yeah, if you're going to say that players either need to wait for the buff to disappear OR use other types of abilities, then the implication is that they need to have multiple, different builds on all of their toons - if you don't want to force that first option upon them. It's that simple.
And telling people to stop playing has nothing to do with learning how to play. I think we can also stop pretending that disengaging requires some godly degree of insight into what's happening. The point is that disengaging isn't a serious solution because then you might as well advise players to hit Alt + F4.
If people really wanted to promote situational awareness, the change to advocate would be to really reward such situational awareness by giving players an option to deal with the situation. I've already given examples above. Voth Bulwark's for instance, can be attacked from the other side.
That's rewarding situational awareness and learning people how to play: first they are hit by something, then you promote their finding a way around it. Literally, in this case.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
As much as I like EPG builds, let's not pretend they require very much insight or tactical thinking. Come on now people.
[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
What you don't seem to understand is that stopping DPSing or swapping target IS a reaction. And a perfectly good one at that.
If you can't admit that it's a solid tactic in response to a very well known and incredibly easy to circumvent mechanic, then I'm afraid you will never understand what people are trying to say here, which is also incredibly simple: you have to pay attention to what's happening around you and adapt to the situation.
Stopping for 15 seconds is not gonna do anything to disrupt the enjoyment of your playthrough... and if it does, then that's on you and not on the game.
There are so few things in STO that actually requires people to THINK and pay attention, and you'd do away with one of them simply because you cba to react how you're supposed to as opposed to just vaping everything in fron of you in a manner of seconds.
And truly, "watch the screen and have the content develop with no way to influence what is happening"? ROFL, truly? Because you have to stop dpsing one target and/or swapping to another for 15 seconds?
We have no way to influence ANYTHING that is happening in this game except for some really minor, and completely incosequential, choices... reacting to a combat situation is actually the only influence we have, and even that is severly limited by the scripted ending of every encounter.
FBP does not violate anything, because what you "cited" is not "an important principle"... but I guess you're one of those types that skip every cutscene - after all, you want to play a game, not watch a movie, right? - and then get to the end while wondering all the time what the hell is happening.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Inactivity is not a rational component of gameplay in anything but a stealth game where you're waiting for guard patrols or something. If you're asking the player to do nothing, you're doing it wrong. Why do you play a game to do nothing? STO is clearly an action RPG game where pew pew is constant, and highly encouraged.
FBP should have an ACTIVE counter that any ship can use/slot. If you think energy builds are mindless spamming, then torpedo or exotic builds are most definitely more mindless. They never have to not shoot as there is no FBP that affects torps or grav wells.
Maybe it could be polarize hull that brings FPB damage down to a maximum of 1k per pulse. Maybe using a tachyon beam or tractor beam confuses the FBP pulse so it won't affect you while using them. Maybe using subsystem targeting: aux will guarantee a FBP cleanse if it is active. Any of those offer actual strategy and counterplay versus sitting idly.
The kicker here is that many builds can essentially actively counter FBP from weak targets by simply healing through it and ignoring the mechanic entirely, however this doesn't work on all targets, like the Borg Queen which if you shoot through it, depending on your build, you can instantly die in a single volley. Instant death is also a bad mechanic as there is no counterplay, except to not play.
Seriously, think about this. If I'm on an eng or tac and running the Hive STF, I watch for FBP and then deselect the target and sit on my hands until I see the icon disappear. If I'm on a sci, I watch for FBP like a hawk with my finger on the SNB button and no one has to stop shooting. Which is better gameplay?
Again it isn't that FBP can't be dealt with, its that the way to deal with it is awful game design.
Once again, this entire thread is hilarious - or hilariously ridiculous, whichever you prefer.
Enjoy the rest of your discussion. I'm done wasting time screaming at the void.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
What you're proposing is that the game is flawed because the players are too lazy to bother to do anything beyond engage in wilful ignorance.
Do nothing?
Engineering: Aceton Beam (core), Let it Go (seasonal event), Structural Integrity Collapse (lockbox)
Do nothing??
Science: Destabilizing Resonance Beam (mission reward Lt and LtC easily available), Tractor Beam (core), Tyken's Rift (core)
Do nothing???
Tactical: Torpedo Spread (core), Torpedo High Yield (core)
Do nothing????
Temporal Operative: Take your pick, just about half the abilities at any tier do physical damage without triggering FBP
Do nothing?????
Intel: Electromagnetic Pulse Probe, Subnucleonic Carrier Wave, Transporter Warhead (all core)
Do nothing??????
Miracle Worker: Destabilize Warp Core (core)
Do nothing?!?!?!?!?
Command: Call Emergency Artillery, Concentrate Firepower (granted more a team buff, but at least it's contributing to the damage output while you sit on you oh so itchy hands.) (all core)
Do nothing?!?!?!?!?!?!!!
Pilot: Subspace Boom, Call Reinforcement Squadron, Coolant Ignition (all core)
I'm sure there's more if you delve the lockbox content, though I appreciate that may not be everyone's preference.
If tinkering with BOff skills is too much to ask, we have torps and mines near enough thrown at us like hail from missions and reps. There are set abilities and summoning devices. If you want to really scrape the barrel there's even the old Borg Cutting Beam from the Omega Rep.
So apparently your option is still to do nothing?
This is why the argument you present is so fundamentally flawed. The game give us a massive arsenal of options to do something in those 15 seconds to attack or counter, but because it's not handed to you on a plate with a little fire-and-forget bow on you consider it unfair, dysfunctional and damaging to your vaunted dps.
But I suppose, the only true option is to disengage brain and do nothing! Hu-friken-manity!
It is not the game's flaw if you deliberately hobble yourself, it's yours.
It was a roundabout way of suggesting that its a players inflexibility or unwillingness to adjust tactics that's at fault if SV, FAW and FBP are all working the way they're meant to. People tend to get a wee bit uppity if you suggest that their precious pewpew addiction might be the root of their problems.
There's only so many ways to suggest to someone that going into the same patrol and using the same tactic to kill themselves over and over and over is their their choice. If they're too rigid to adjust playstyle they're likely just as rigid towards suggestions that its them at fault.
Zactly. The game already requires you to use your brain for only like 1% of the time, and NPCs generally don't put up any fight at all. (Like sometimes a NPC crits, and it's so rare, that you immediately think "Wow, glad their not doing THAT too often.")
Hyperbole much? Just switching targets, for a moment, or take your fingers off the spacebar, does not equate to having 'multiple, different builds on all of their toon.'
Again, hyperbole much? Telling ppl to disengage firing, for a moment, because the situation has (temporarily) changed, is not the same as suggesting 'players to hit Alt + F4.' They're not supposed to stop playing, but to adapt their play, for the brief duration of FBP.
Zactly. So, what's your problem then? If ppl know enough not to blast at a Bulwark/Citadel when its Deflection shield is up, they can learn to switch targets during FBP.
Your arguments are tantamount to suggesting it's fair for a real-life pilot to fly straight into a mountain, because 99% of the time he's just flying forward. Finding a way around it, literally, in this case, is precisely what L2P is all about. And the game only requires us to do so, in that 1% of all cases.
[vent]
All I'm getting right now from one side as a counter to the other is "MOAR DAKKA because reasons" and "FBP has no counter outside one ability, and Kenitic Damage is not a counter". Yet as stated above, there's actually quite a few ways to deal damage without triggering FBP. But again the response is "there is no counter, you're just sitting on your hands doing NOTHING, therefor just quit the game." I fail to see ANY logic at all in that argument whatsoever. FBP does promote situational awareness, just like the Voth Reflector. Yet... it doesn't because you can't just fly around it to continue using your energy weapons? I am seriously confused on what the message is here. Because honestly all I'm getting is "I reject your reality and substitute my own".
The fact of the matter is there are viable counters, and the easiest one that doesn't require any special builds or anything, that is literally FREE TO EVERYONE... is to just not shoot the dang glowy ship! No EC investment of any kind needed! Its literally the cheepest counter in the game!
I don't mean to sound crass right now, but the only reason I can think of for arguing against any counter and talking about how not shooting it is not a solution... is the DPS mentality of "vape everything in sight. Got a problem? Shoot it." So we got an ability in game that actually hurts you to blindly DPS... and short of being a Sci with Subnuc there's no counter? *looks at the listed counters* Uh huh... sitting on your hands doing nothing... *again looks at the listed counters* Might as well just Alt F4... I'm sorry... that does not compute. It makes NO sense.
[/vent]
Ok... got it out of my system now. I should be good for a while. Still confused as hell... but I'm good.
I can't think of a single build among all of my characters that doesn't have some support and defensive abilities. FBP is a good time for me to target a different enemy for a moment, or I can click/keypress any weapon once to disable auto-fire of my auto-fire weapons and combine that last one with targeting an ally for a heal or buff ability...or activate any of my own support skills, like Tractor Beams, polarize hull, Reverse Shield Polarity, etc. Shockingly, having a DEW only build does not prevent you from keeping a smaller amount of defense and support abilities on the build, even if they're not quite as effective as if they were on tank, support, or exotic focused min-max builds.
It's been a long time since I completely wiped myself out on a Feedback Pulse. I have options, and all while still pulling well more than my own weight on the parser.
And finally, 15 Seconds is just not a long time.
Yes, in badlands that advice is often fine, but badlands FBP is nothing compared to the Borg Queen. But what else is there to target when fighting the Borg Queen ship where FBP is a death sentence?
Again, Borg queen stands alone, there is nothing to do there. Voth shields are fine, yes, because you can go around them, even engage them while moving to get them to shield on the side you are already leaving. For a Voth shield I stop firing and fly to the other side. That is actual gameplay, as opposed to the queen where there is literally nothing else to do. Yet Voth shields also aren't instant death for a high DPS build, the queen can be.
Are you serious? You expect someone to change from an EW build to an exotic or torpedo build in the middle of a STF, and while in Red alert status? Even for an exotic build most of what you listed is insignificant damage and is in no way going to kill that ship under FBP.
That was patently absurd.
Worse is the childish personal attacks and the mind reading nonsense. Yes surely it must be my precious DPS when I have never once parsed my DPS and have no clue what it is. Lets completely ignore everything I'm saying and invent the true motive.
I'm also struck that not one of the people disagreeing has said a thing about FBP's damage potential, as if toning it down some is an unreasonable impossibility too.
And I will echo this question:
[/quote]And what abilities do enemies use that have the same effect on EPG or torp builds?[/quote]
This is the bottom line of this thread, obviously, so lets adress it.
Nor am I expecting that any of those abilities will suddenly turn your ship into an FBP ignoring death machine. But you claimed you could do nothing while FBP was active and you now have a nice list of examples of things you could make use of.
Though I would observe that for someone claiming to be so dismissive of your own dps it is curious that you dismiss these abilities for being unable to kill a ship.
Is there a law against tailoring a build before running a STF?
Because turning it into a tickle makes it pointless. That's already been pointed out in this thread about the player version.
There's quite a few that have stun and disabling effects, various system offline abilities that turn an action bar into a a bunch of dead buttons which can be fatal to a Sci build that generally survives on its tricks.
I do like it how the the nerf-FBP advocates call me absurd and ignorant, or "refuse to accept simple facts" yet they are the ones that are refusing to adapt. You have a choice, ride your one trick pony and accept it won't be doing anything other than that one trick, or adapt.
Nor do I have "an agenda", that's really funny actually, me have an agenda! I hate to break it to you Sunshine you're barking up the wrong tree if you think there's an agenda here.
Either way I can see from your response you're clearly too set in your ways to even consider thinking your way around the problem without crying foul on everyone else and demanding the goalposts be moved instead. Good luck with that.