The only qualifier is people should be civil to each other. "It's going to be great and if you disagree you suck" and "It's going to be bad and if you disagree you suck" are both equally wrong.
This is the main issue with ANYTHING Discovery around here. Civil goes out the window because reasons and a need to see it fail, when its so far going strong into its 4th season.
And one trailer = fodder for ripping it apart with these kinds of people. Find SOMETHING to bring it down over, and go into detail on why it fails.
Drives me up a wall. If you don't like it, just say so and leave it at that. Don't go into a lecture nitpicking every tiny detail to try and convince others to hate it. We all have opinions, but why the need to split hairs to the Nth degree?
Funny thing is... Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline were viewed in the same way Discovery is now.
Drives me up a wall. If you don't like it, just say so and leave it at that. Don't go into a lecture nitpicking every tiny detail to try and convince others to hate it. We all have opinions, but why the need to split hairs to the Nth degree?
I don't think either "side" (whether you like it or not) is under any obligation to "state your opinion, then leave". Someone who doesn't like a show has just as much of a right to explain why as someone who does. Neither of those people should have to feel like they only get one chance to say how they feel and then they shouldn't continue the conversation afterwards.
If someone is breaking a rule (personal insults), report them. It doesn't matter whether that someone is a rabid fan or a rabid hater. Either way, being rabid is bad. But if someone isn't breaking any rule, they have every right to discuss a topic regardless of whether they like it or not.
The only exception is if a topic is SPECIFICALLY framed as "what do you LIKE about X show?". If someone who doesn't like that show comes into that topic and starts telling you what they don't like, they are intentionally trying to start an argument(trolling). But of course, the reverse is also true. If a topic is framed as "what do you NOT like about X show" and someone comes in saying how much they like it, that's also trolling.
But if a topic is not framed that way, and is simply ABOUT said show, then everyone has equal right to give their opinion on the show, and keep giving it as long as the discussion is going.
Its not people expressing their opinions, its going out of their way to hammer it into your head over the tiniest detail. Something that comes up quite a bit when Discovery is involved.
Someone doesn't like Burnham. Ok.
Someone explains why they don't like Burnham. Ok.
Someone explains how Burnham is wrong and shouldn't exist. Pushing it.
Someone wishes doom on a whole series over Burnham. WTF DUDE!
I'm not calling anyone out on this partcular part, I'm just using a character that seems to be a hot button topic as an example of what drives me up a wall. Its literally finding ANY fault, even if its something small and trivial, and pretty much blowing it up to the point its a CRIME against Star Trek.
It just... makes no sense to me why someone needs to go to those lengths so much whenever the subject comes up. And the hardliners that take it to the extreme... its worse.
The problem with Wesley was that most of the time they tried to push him into the "genius who can solve anything" type. Pretty sure that got MASSIVELY toned down when he actually did become a cadet. if anyone was worthy of the "Mary Sue" type... it was early Wesley. And honestly the way his character was pushed... it wasn't easy to like him at all. A lot of the time he pretty much had a neon sign over his head saying "GENIUS YOUNG MAN! LIKE ME!"
Neelix I give a pass to because A: He's not Starfleet, he's a trader native to the Delta Quadrant, and B: He's out of his element most of the time in a Starfleet environment. Early on he was pretty much the only one who knew anything about the Delta Quadrant. I don't hate the character, and I can see him as something other than Starfleet, but there were times that he was a bit meh. Unfortunately that was the case with almost the entire cast at one point or another. Got worse when Seven came on and they focused on her a lot more, leaving some of the other characters behind. I mean the only promotion in seven years was Tom Paris? AFTER he got DEMOTED? Harry Kim should have at LEAST been a Lt. JG by the time they got back to Earth!
The problem with Wesley was that most of the time they tried to push him into the "genius who can solve anything" type. Pretty sure that got MASSIVELY toned down when he actually did become a cadet. if anyone was worthy of the "Mary Sue" type... it was early Wesley. And honestly the way his character was pushed... it wasn't easy to like him at all. A lot of the time he pretty much had a neon sign over his head saying "GENIUS YOUNG MAN! LIKE ME!"
Neelix I give a pass to because A: He's not Starfleet, he's a trader native to the Delta Quadrant, and B: He's out of his element most of the time in a Starfleet environment. Early on he was pretty much the only one who knew anything about the Delta Quadrant. I don't hate the character, and I can see him as something other than Starfleet, but there were times that he was a bit meh. Unfortunately that was the case with almost the entire cast at one point or another. Got worse when Seven came on and they focused on her a lot more, leaving some of the other characters behind. I mean the only promotion in seven years was Tom Paris? AFTER he got DEMOTED? Harry Kim should have at LEAST been a Lt. JG by the time they got back to Earth!
Wesley was very poorly written as a character, unlike Reginald Barclay who was also a genius but a likable and interesting character. Star Trek has usually been a character driven show. Nothing showcases that better than the different captains ( You hit me! Picard never hit me!)
For me Neelix grew on me as they developed his character. The Klingon episode was some great Neelix. He was annoying at first and I understand why many people don't like him, but I think he really got more interesting over time. I also think Neelix is fantastically voiced in STO.
On Seven, Voyager became the Seven and Doctor show at some point and that was really disappointing, even though as singular episodes those could be some really good ones. Kes was a very dull character and Seven was more interesting as a replacement, but it became sadly transparent there were two main reasons Seven was showcased as a character to the exclusion of the rest of the cast.
And poor Harry, I agree. However promotions in most organizations also involve new responsibilities, especially as people leave. With Voyager a closed system, there wasn't much room for promotion. Besides I think Riker has him beat.
Wesley, incredibly annoying as he was, was a victim of the radical changes TNG went though during the initial runup and specifically in this case when they dropped almost all of the "family" aspect of the show and narrowed it all down to a more conventional single hierarchy, mostly non separating cruiser setup.
He was supposed to be the leader of a sort of youth "nerd gang" that would annoy the tribble out of Picard, get themselves into trouble, and sometimes get the ship out of trouble from the "city" side of the A/B plot structure. Each person of the gang was a prodigy (of course) and had different specialties, but when they eliminated the gang except for Wesley they had to fold all those specialties into him and he became the incredibly obnoxious know it all everyone knows and dislikes.
The problem with Wesley was that most of the time they tried to push him into the "genius who can solve anything" type. Pretty sure that got MASSIVELY toned down when he actually did become a cadet. if anyone was worthy of the "Mary Sue" type... it was early Wesley. And honestly the way his character was pushed... it wasn't easy to like him at all. A lot of the time he pretty much had a neon sign over his head saying "GENIUS YOUNG MAN! LIKE ME!"
Neelix I give a pass to because A: He's not Starfleet, he's a trader native to the Delta Quadrant, and B: He's out of his element most of the time in a Starfleet environment. Early on he was pretty much the only one who knew anything about the Delta Quadrant. I don't hate the character, and I can see him as something other than Starfleet, but there were times that he was a bit meh. Unfortunately that was the case with almost the entire cast at one point or another. Got worse when Seven came on and they focused on her a lot more, leaving some of the other characters behind. I mean the only promotion in seven years was Tom Paris? AFTER he got DEMOTED? Harry Kim should have at LEAST been a Lt. JG by the time they got back to Earth!
Wesley was very poorly written as a character, unlike Reginald Barclay who was also a genius but a likable and interesting character. Star Trek has usually been a character driven show. Nothing showcases that better than the different captains ( You hit me! Picard never hit me!)
For me Neelix grew on me as they developed his character. The Klingon episode was some great Neelix. He was annoying at first and I understand why many people don't like him, but I think he really got more interesting over time. I also think Neelix is fantastically voiced in STO.
On Seven, Voyager became the Seven and Doctor show at some point and that was really disappointing, even though as singular episodes those could be some really good ones. Kes was a very dull character and Seven was more interesting as a replacement, but it became sadly transparent there were two main reasons Seven was showcased as a character to the exclusion of the rest of the cast.
And poor Harry, I agree. However promotions in most organizations also involve new responsibilities, especially as people leave. With Voyager a closed system, there wasn't much room for promotion. Besides I think Riker has him beat.
Kes was only a "dull character" because the writers didn't know what to do with her. There was, in my opinion, a LOT of potential in that character. I don't care what anyone claims - 'Kes' departure was a byproduct of a lack of imagination from the writers and the need to introduce a tall blonde catsuit-clad sex-symbol to appeal to the younger male demographic. I distinctly remember all the promotional paraphernalia at the time - literally nothing but pictures of Jeri Ryan posing, semi-suggestively, in that damn silver catsuit, with the show she was appearing on reduced to something of an afterthough.
I guess it all comes down to personal taste, but 'Seven' didn't actually do anything for me and I was disappointed when Kes left. To be honest, I thought she looked amazing in 'Scorpion:
I totally agree. Kes was boring because they didn't know what to do with her, but that still left her as a dull character.
Writing wise, Seven at least had a more interesting arc of trying to rejoin the borg, then trying to become human again. I did always hate the robotic monotone though.
I totally agree. Kes was boring because they didn't know what to do with her, but that still left her as a dull character.
Writing wise, Seven at least had a more interesting arc of trying to rejoin the borg, then trying to become human again. I did always hate the robotic monotone though.
She "outvulcan'd" even Tuvok. Every series needed their "cold, emotional" part and apparently Tuvok didn't cut it in the Vulcan department.
What definitely didn't help was Voyager's constant establishing of already known characters, possible due to the show being made so people could watch it out of order and not miss anything. I don't think there is an episode in which Seven doesn't loudly announce that she is Borg and explains that she doesn't do X or why she can do Y.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Well... on the other hand, seeing an emotional, more human Seven in Picard was interesting. And she does look good with her hair down and wearing normal clothes. Hell... I liked how Seven and Picard shared a moment about their time as Borg. They may have never actually met in person, but Seven would know about Locutus.
Honestly I thought Seven looked good in a Starfleet Uniform too in that episode with the temporal shenanigans.
I think the given reason for the catsuit (in universe) was originally to protect what few implants remained and couldn't be removed. The fact we see her once in a blue moon wearing normal clothes kinda debunks that IMO, and leads me to think Seven just prefers the catsuits as a "security blanket" because she's still adjusting to life as a human again, and the catsuit feels more Borg than normal clothes.
Comments
This is the main issue with ANYTHING Discovery around here. Civil goes out the window because reasons and a need to see it fail, when its so far going strong into its 4th season.
And one trailer = fodder for ripping it apart with these kinds of people. Find SOMETHING to bring it down over, and go into detail on why it fails.
Drives me up a wall. If you don't like it, just say so and leave it at that. Don't go into a lecture nitpicking every tiny detail to try and convince others to hate it. We all have opinions, but why the need to split hairs to the Nth degree?
Funny thing is... Enterprise and the Kelvin Timeline were viewed in the same way Discovery is now.
I don't think either "side" (whether you like it or not) is under any obligation to "state your opinion, then leave". Someone who doesn't like a show has just as much of a right to explain why as someone who does. Neither of those people should have to feel like they only get one chance to say how they feel and then they shouldn't continue the conversation afterwards.
If someone is breaking a rule (personal insults), report them. It doesn't matter whether that someone is a rabid fan or a rabid hater. Either way, being rabid is bad. But if someone isn't breaking any rule, they have every right to discuss a topic regardless of whether they like it or not.
The only exception is if a topic is SPECIFICALLY framed as "what do you LIKE about X show?". If someone who doesn't like that show comes into that topic and starts telling you what they don't like, they are intentionally trying to start an argument(trolling). But of course, the reverse is also true. If a topic is framed as "what do you NOT like about X show" and someone comes in saying how much they like it, that's also trolling.
But if a topic is not framed that way, and is simply ABOUT said show, then everyone has equal right to give their opinion on the show, and keep giving it as long as the discussion is going.
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Someone doesn't like Burnham. Ok.
Someone explains why they don't like Burnham. Ok.
Someone explains how Burnham is wrong and shouldn't exist. Pushing it.
Someone wishes doom on a whole series over Burnham. WTF DUDE!
I'm not calling anyone out on this partcular part, I'm just using a character that seems to be a hot button topic as an example of what drives me up a wall. Its literally finding ANY fault, even if its something small and trivial, and pretty much blowing it up to the point its a CRIME against Star Trek.
It just... makes no sense to me why someone needs to go to those lengths so much whenever the subject comes up. And the hardliners that take it to the extreme... its worse.
Guess I needed a good vent...
Although, bear in mind that debating the most trivial detail is a long held tradition of Trek fans and is not exclusive to the new shows
Nor is hating a specific character, for that matter *cough*wesley*cough*
But yeah
The-Grand-Nagus
Join Date: Sep 2008
Neelix I give a pass to because A: He's not Starfleet, he's a trader native to the Delta Quadrant, and B: He's out of his element most of the time in a Starfleet environment. Early on he was pretty much the only one who knew anything about the Delta Quadrant. I don't hate the character, and I can see him as something other than Starfleet, but there were times that he was a bit meh. Unfortunately that was the case with almost the entire cast at one point or another. Got worse when Seven came on and they focused on her a lot more, leaving some of the other characters behind. I mean the only promotion in seven years was Tom Paris? AFTER he got DEMOTED? Harry Kim should have at LEAST been a Lt. JG by the time they got back to Earth!
Wesley was very poorly written as a character, unlike Reginald Barclay who was also a genius but a likable and interesting character. Star Trek has usually been a character driven show. Nothing showcases that better than the different captains ( You hit me! Picard never hit me!)
For me Neelix grew on me as they developed his character. The Klingon episode was some great Neelix. He was annoying at first and I understand why many people don't like him, but I think he really got more interesting over time. I also think Neelix is fantastically voiced in STO.
On Seven, Voyager became the Seven and Doctor show at some point and that was really disappointing, even though as singular episodes those could be some really good ones. Kes was a very dull character and Seven was more interesting as a replacement, but it became sadly transparent there were two main reasons Seven was showcased as a character to the exclusion of the rest of the cast.
And poor Harry, I agree. However promotions in most organizations also involve new responsibilities, especially as people leave. With Voyager a closed system, there wasn't much room for promotion. Besides I think Riker has him beat.
He was supposed to be the leader of a sort of youth "nerd gang" that would annoy the tribble out of Picard, get themselves into trouble, and sometimes get the ship out of trouble from the "city" side of the A/B plot structure. Each person of the gang was a prodigy (of course) and had different specialties, but when they eliminated the gang except for Wesley they had to fold all those specialties into him and he became the incredibly obnoxious know it all everyone knows and dislikes.
I totally agree. Kes was boring because they didn't know what to do with her, but that still left her as a dull character.
Writing wise, Seven at least had a more interesting arc of trying to rejoin the borg, then trying to become human again. I did always hate the robotic monotone though.
She "outvulcan'd" even Tuvok. Every series needed their "cold, emotional" part and apparently Tuvok didn't cut it in the Vulcan department.
What definitely didn't help was Voyager's constant establishing of already known characters, possible due to the show being made so people could watch it out of order and not miss anything. I don't think there is an episode in which Seven doesn't loudly announce that she is Borg and explains that she doesn't do X or why she can do Y.
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Honestly I thought Seven looked good in a Starfleet Uniform too in that episode with the temporal shenanigans.
I think the given reason for the catsuit (in universe) was originally to protect what few implants remained and couldn't be removed. The fact we see her once in a blue moon wearing normal clothes kinda debunks that IMO, and leads me to think Seven just prefers the catsuits as a "security blanket" because she's still adjusting to life as a human again, and the catsuit feels more Borg than normal clothes.