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proof reporting bugs for console is a waste of time

so i missed ten forwards livestream but fully expected to watch it at some point. then somebody in chat mentioned something was said in it that had me rushing to twitch. and he was correct. they said on stream it was unfortunate that the bug came out around the time of the klingon recruitment event. now i`ve been disappointed with cryptic over the years but this made me actually angry. but before i shot my mouth off, i figured i`d double check social media and the forums for a cloak bug. and what did i find? many posts going back years, YEARS. all asking to please fix this bug. numerous posts in both ps4 and xbox bug report sections, which have been explicitly touted as the medium to use for reporting said bugs. i could never wrap my head around why they would make a recruitment event round a broken mechanic for console and now i know. they just don`t bother looking at console bug reports or at least paying any heed. and why do i just say console? because the minute a few pc players report it, of course it gets looked at.

Comments

  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,663 Arc User
    will#4752 wrote: »
    because the minute a few pc players report it, of course it gets looked at.

    That is truly hilarious.. thanks for the laugh! :lol:

    I can't imagine anything you could have said that would have possibly been more wrong.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,111 Arc User
    edited April 4
    will#4752 wrote: »
    because the minute a few pc players report it, of course it gets looked at.
    That was a good one.
    I can guarantee you PC players feel the same about reports being ignored, except we can't blame another "better", more and faster-udpated platform for this.
    #TASforSTO
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  • will#4752 will Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    will#4752 wrote: »
    because the minute a few pc players report it, of course it gets looked at.

    That is truly hilarious.. thanks for the laugh! :lol:

    I can't imagine anything you could have said that would have possibly been more wrong.

    i figured this may get pc players backs up but that wasn`t the point in saying it, it`s how it looks over at console. sadly it`s now a running joke, a meme. i`ll give you another recent example. at the start of the year we got a bunch of bugs with an update, one of which was a armada and fleet chat bug and reported multiple times. recently i heard pc had a chat bug, was even tweeted it was being looked at. i`m not on pc so i don`t know if it`s been fixed? ours hasn`t, not even acknowledged. but thankyou for replying.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,456 Arc User
    edited April 4
    It's a bug going back years on PC too, but it's an intermittent bug that doesn't reproduce on command, and one that until this event affected a small minority of players. Before now, less than 1/3 of players had a KDF captain, and of those many never used cloaking.

    So: difficult to fix because of its nature, and before this event not affecting most players. That gave cryptic a choice between spending developer time on this bug or other easier to fix and/or higher priority bugs.

    The recruitment event changed the priority of the bug, because suddenly it was affecting many more players and preventing them from completing a part of the event. It suddenly became more important because of the event, not because Cryptic is ignoring console bugs.

    Bug fixing is triage. No application of reasonable size is bug-free, because companies do not have unlimited resources to fix them all. So bugs are given a priority and some of them persist for many years. If you search other MMOs like WoW and SWTOR you'll find complaints about years-old bugs in them too. For applications that make their issue tracker / bug database public you'll usually see hundreds or even thousands of open bug reports.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,396 Arc User
    They mentioned in the stream that issue at fixing the bug is that they aren't able to reproduce it internally at the moment (and they can't copy the data from an effected player either then tried that and the bug cleared itself), so short of reading every single line of code STO has there's not much the team can do to figure out what's wrong (and bugs like this are rarely if ever as simple as the one that destroyed the Xenomorph AI in Aliens:Colonial Marines).

    Everything I know (which is most likely less then what Cryptic knows) points out that this is cause by some part of the code not working as it's suppose to while client machine is subject to a high workload.
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
    will#4752 wrote: »
    and why do i just say console? because the minute a few pc players report it, of course it gets looked at.

    Um yeah about that - many bugs acknowledged on PC YEARS AGO still exist. Also, it took them TWO YERARS to fix a display bug with the TOS 23c (TOS) EVA suit. This was after it was acknowledged on a Ten Forward Weekly and both Kael and the Dev found it funny. Again TWO YEARS - it was just fixed two patches ago.

    So yes - as someone already noted - thanks for the laugh.

    The truth is - reporting bugs doesn't really matter regardless of platform - they fix them as they are able to and as time permits. If it doesn't instantly crash something or block major progress or prevent players from buying Zen, it's LOW priority period.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,176 Arc User
    Yeah... like how certain captains can't use Destabilizing Resonance Beam training manuals.... there's a thread in the PC support forum dating back to 2018 and the bug still exists.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,192 Community Moderator
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,176 Arc User
    edited April 5
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    In the case of the DRB bug, I'm not sure how video, screenshots, etc would help... it is literally "all requirements are met, the button shows up on the skills page, but pushing the button doesn't do anything"
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,663 Arc User
    will#4752 wrote: »
    will#4752 wrote: »
    because the minute a few pc players report it, of course it gets looked at.

    That is truly hilarious.. thanks for the laugh! :lol:

    I can't imagine anything you could have said that would have possibly been more wrong.

    i figured this may get pc players backs up but that wasn`t the point in saying it, it`s how it looks over at console. sadly it`s now a running joke, a meme. i`ll give you another recent example. at the start of the year we got a bunch of bugs with an update, one of which was a armada and fleet chat bug and reported multiple times. recently i heard pc had a chat bug, was even tweeted it was being looked at. i`m not on pc so i don`t know if it`s been fixed? ours hasn`t, not even acknowledged. but thankyou for replying.

    Just so you know, I play on PC and when I did my KDF Recruit, I had the bug just like you guys do on console. I had several times where I couldn't decloak my ship and not only has it not been fixed on PC but Cloak has been bugged on PC since the game came out 11 years ago.

    As someone else mentioned, it's a bug they are reportedly having a hard time replicating which makes it difficult to fix. I understand that from a console perspective it probably looks like PC gets all the attention, but I assure you my friend, we are all in the same boat. There are plenty of bugs for both of us, you can be assured of that. :smiley:

    I will say this though, it's rare I defend Cryptic, but I think they actually do a good job overall with bugs. I know, I will get torn up pretty good for saying that, and perhaps deservedly so, but we get a patch every week that usually fixes at least some bugs. Now, are they always the bugs that I personally consider the most important? Not at all. Are there some bugs that persist for long periods, seemingly without being addressed? There are. Are they perfect? Far from it.

    But I have played quite a few online games, and the one thing I can tell you honestly is that no one is perfect in this area. I know it's not the easiest thing to believe, but when it comes to addressing bugs, of the games that I personally have played, I put Cryptic in the upper tier when it comes to fixing things. In the end, it's an 11+ year old game that's had things added to it year after year.. there is just so much to go through.

    Sorry you had to deal with the bug, hopefully one day soon it will be fixed for all of us. It can be frustrating, but sadly, bugs are just a part of video games.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,192 Community Moderator
    westmetals wrote: »
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    In the case of the DRB bug, I'm not sure how video, screenshots, etc would help... it is literally "all requirements are met, the button shows up on the skills page, but pushing the button doesn't do anything"

    the more data that we have on bugs the better. Even if it doesn't tell us exactly what's going on, it allows possibilities to be eliminated. As I was getting at earlier, bugs have to be able to be reproduced consistently to know what's busted and how to fix it. I don't like it anymore than you do, but it is what it is.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    With respect to the cloak bug, I can understand why the Devs are having a hard time reproducing this bug. Granted I haven't sat down to play with it specifically, but I find it hard to reproduce. Recently, while in the Badlands battlezone, I cloaked just after clearing a zone of enemies and got stuck. I was still in red alert when I hit cloak, so it could be that one of my skills auto-triggered, but I don't remember seeing anything trigger. Later, after moving to another zone, I activated my cloak while under fire and got stuck, and again, I do not remember seeing any indication that another ability was triggering at the same time. For reference I was flying the Temer class and using its enhanced battle cloak.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,455 Arc User
    I've still never seen the cloak bug, personally, but I've long known that they don't fix things in a timely manner. And yes some of that is because of the process of finding, fixing, and testing to make sure it works and doesn't immediately break more things, but its best just to report a bug and just hope for the best.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,396 Arc User
    It's not limited to the Temer, when I got hit by this I was flying the Qugh (IIRC, the trident shaped DSC MW ship), as I said before this seems to be somehow connected to the workload the system is doing at that point or maybe the server though the fact it is more common on console suggests user end workload is the cause.

    I don't have footage as I don't record my gameplay. As for what I was doing I was setting up my buffs for an alpha strike after decloaking.
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    It's not limited to the Temer, when I got hit by this I was flying the Qugh (IIRC, the trident shaped DSC MW ship), as I said before this seems to be somehow connected to the workload the system is doing at that point or maybe the server though the fact it is more common on console suggests user end workload is the cause.

    I don't have footage as I don't record my gameplay. As for what I was doing I was setting up my buffs for an alpha strike after decloaking.

    Yes, as far as I know it is any battle cloak or enhanced battle cloak. I have had it happen on many ships (all Romulan but I know it happens on Klink ships) using battle and enhanced battle cloaks. The best I can figure, as others have pointed out, is that it only happens when you activate the cloak while in red alert with another skill going off at the same time. Particularly annoying on Console because we rely heavily on auto-triggers for our abilities because of the radial menus, so figuring out which abilities are causing the bug is difficult at best.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,663 Arc User
    The Cloak Bug is not ship limited, I have encountered it on both the Qugh and the T6 Kor.

    I understand why it's so hard for them to find, I have had it happen 2 or 3 times total and I cannot intentionally recreate it either. My guess is that it requires a very specific set of conditions in order to happen, it could be a certain combination of bridge officer abilities or something you hit at a very specific time.. it's definitely difficult to recreate, even when you have had it happen previously.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,303 Arc User
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    sorry dark...but there are many bugs they sweep under the table for whatever reason, you say in order of severity, many of us argue other factors.

    this line of detail from the CMs is getting old.

    how about the sci accolade in Azura mission? thats been dorked for how long now? and the one they mentioned after your post?

    its about money, spending time on things that bring money in compared to fixing things that ruin player imersion. so what if the sci accolade is dorked, the mission still completes. as discussed before, it becomes a reflection of the reality of where STO sits now.

    one other thing...if yall actually had a system that was worth its price, and keep open tickets till closed by the reporting party, verses the typical reply: "this information has been passed to the devs, ticket closed." that way, "we," the players can validate if it was fixed or still has issues. you say you all need details, videos, screens, etc, but how can we get those to you when you close the tickets? get your ticketing team in order, allow them to keep tickets open, and have them ask questions pertaining to details needed, not just copy and paste about the ticket being closed and details sent to the black hole.
    meh

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,456 Arc User
    edited April 5
    @keepcalmchiveon - at most companies customer service has a support/help desk ticket system that is completely separate from the development system. Support tickets need to be closed so staff don't waste time scrolling through them to work on the open support issues. Support can't fix bugs, just pass them on.

    First, someone on staff (either QA or senior support) tries to replicate the bug report.

    If customer service tickets are replicated by QA then a ticket for the developers is created in the development system. Program managers (or similar) then triage reports and assign them to the proper team, placing the bug somewhere in the work queue for that team.

    Management will shift issues up and down based on what other issues exist or if their importance changes (an example being the cloaking bug that is now suddenly affecting all the KDF recruits).

    Yes, I'd expect "costing Cryptic money" tends to place a bug much much higher in the work queue than "an accolade that many players don't pay attention to" but that should make sense because Cryptic needs the cash monies to keep the lights on and salaries paid.

    Some companies make their development issue tracker public, but most do not. Even for those that make issues public, I don't know of any (outside of some mods or open source) that make their developer's work queues public. Customers might know that issue A is still open, but that doesn't tell them how soon someone will work on it.

    (Note: I've been a software developer for a long long time now, but not for Cryptic.)
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,303 Arc User
    @keepcalmchiveon - at most companies customer service has a support/help desk ticket system that is completely separate from the development system. Support tickets need to be closed so staff don't waste time scrolling through them to work on the open support issues. Support can't fix bugs, just pass them on.

    First, someone on staff (either QA or senior support) tries to replicate the bug report.

    If customer service tickets are replicated by QA then a ticket for the developers is created in the development system. Program managers (or similar) then triage reports and assign them to the proper team, placing the bug somewhere in the work queue for that team.

    Management will shift issues up and down based on what other issues exist or if their importance changes (an example being the cloaking bug that is now suddenly affecting all the KDF recruits).

    Yes, I'd expect "costing Cryptic money" tends to place a bug much much higher in the work queue than "an accolade that many players don't pay attention to" but that should make sense because Cryptic needs the cash monies to keep the lights on and salaries paid.

    Some companies make their development issue tracker public, but most do not. Even for those that make issues public, I don't know of any (outside of some mods or open source) that make their developer's work queues public. Customers might know that issue A is still open, but that doesn't tell them how soon someone will work on it.

    (Note: I've been a software developer for a long long time now, but not for Cryptic.)

    and you think no one else in this forum knows things? i dont care about your position on how it works, ive been there as well. i care about the fact they use the same old tired BS. i dont care about levels of support or not, they always close them so they can meet metrics and never be held to the fire to fix them.
    out of sight, out of mind.
    and lets use the sci accolade. they know, we know, the world knows, that its dorked. but rather than fix, or at the least, remove all accolades from that mission, they let it be a black eye for all to see.
    now, regardless of your background, of which i care less about, this screams of lazy attention to detail, and just diving in for more money grabs and no concern for the game or those that are new (yes i have a few friends who have just started).
    i cant even stand up for the game when my friends ask why its broke and they havent fixed it in months, or years. i have no good answers. and to just let them see it for themselves, i tell them to submit a ticket...and guess what, it gets closed, with the reply as stated before with at times to post in the bugs area of the forums...never to actually be fixed or addressed. is this with all bugs - no. is it with some - yes.

    anyway, this is off topic all the heck, so unless they CMs allow us to discuss, of which they dont, lets drop it as you and i will never see the same.

    /offbox
    meh

  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,303 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    sorry dark...but there are many bugs they sweep under the table for whatever reason, you say in order of severity, many of us argue other factors.

    this line of detail from the CMs is getting old.

    how about the sci accolade in Azura mission? thats been dorked for how long now? and the one they mentioned after your post?

    its about money, spending time on things that bring money in compared to fixing things that ruin player imersion. so what if the sci accolade is dorked, the mission still completes. as discussed before, it becomes a reflection of the reality of where STO sits now.

    one other thing...if yall actually had a system that was worth its price, and keep open tickets till closed by the reporting party, verses the typical reply: "this information has been passed to the devs, ticket closed." that way, "we," the players can validate if it was fixed or still has issues. you say you all need details, videos, screens, etc, but how can we get those to you when you close the tickets? get your ticketing team in order, allow them to keep tickets open, and have them ask questions pertaining to details needed, not just copy and paste about the ticket being closed and details sent to the black hole.

    I'm sorry...but having tickets be left open indefinitely until the customer remembers to actually close them is a completely moronic idea that will increase labor cost for PWI for no real return as whoever is in charge of CS would have to spend an ever increasing amount of time reading open tickets to figure out what the hell is going on. What GOOD companies do is that once a CS agent response to an inquiry, the customer has roughly a weekish to respond if that solved the issue or not. No response means it is closed. They clicked the solved button...once again closed. If they indicate it has not been solved, it remains open until another CS agent or the same one gets back to the customer and the timer starts again. After 3 ish attempts by an agent is unsuccessful, it automatically gets sent up to the next level of CS to try and resolve. What they have as "customer service" for this game is a joke mind you...but what you suggest won't help anything either. It will in fact make things worse...much much worse. Mind you, with the state of the customer service as it stands now, I would NEVER suggest to anyone to spend any money in this game. Their customer service is as you say...just a repeat of it's a bug, the devs ill deal with it and closed ticket. No reimbursement of the bugged item. Or replacement of zen that got the bugged item. Things that customer service is actually SUPPOSE to do mind you...not the devs. But bad idea is still bad.

    it was mentioned previously (in another thread) about either the person closes or it closes based on inactive response to dev or support inquiries. i figured it was a given. guess not.
    meh

  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,176 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    sorry dark...but there are many bugs they sweep under the table for whatever reason, you say in order of severity, many of us argue other factors.

    this line of detail from the CMs is getting old.

    how about the sci accolade in Azura mission? thats been dorked for how long now? and the one they mentioned after your post?

    its about money, spending time on things that bring money in compared to fixing things that ruin player imersion. so what if the sci accolade is dorked, the mission still completes. as discussed before, it becomes a reflection of the reality of where STO sits now.

    one other thing...if yall actually had a system that was worth its price, and keep open tickets till closed by the reporting party, verses the typical reply: "this information has been passed to the devs, ticket closed." that way, "we," the players can validate if it was fixed or still has issues. you say you all need details, videos, screens, etc, but how can we get those to you when you close the tickets? get your ticketing team in order, allow them to keep tickets open, and have them ask questions pertaining to details needed, not just copy and paste about the ticket being closed and details sent to the black hole.

    I'm sorry...but having tickets be left open indefinitely until the customer remembers to actually close them is a completely moronic idea that will increase labor cost for PWI for no real return as whoever is in charge of CS would have to spend an ever increasing amount of time reading open tickets to figure out what the hell is going on. What GOOD companies do is that once a CS agent response to an inquiry, the customer has roughly a weekish to respond if that solved the issue or not. No response means it is closed. They clicked the solved button...once again closed. If they indicate it has not been solved, it remains open until another CS agent or the same one gets back to the customer and the timer starts again. After 3 ish attempts by an agent is unsuccessful, it automatically gets sent up to the next level of CS to try and resolve. What they have as "customer service" for this game is a joke mind you...but what you suggest won't help anything either. It will in fact make things worse...much much worse. Mind you, with the state of the customer service as it stands now, I would NEVER suggest to anyone to spend any money in this game. Their customer service is as you say...just a repeat of it's a bug, the devs ill deal with it and closed ticket. No reimbursement of the bugged item. Or replacement of zen that got the bugged item. Things that customer service is actually SUPPOSE to do mind you...not the devs. But bad idea is still bad.

    Great in theory, but my latest bug report was marked "solved" simply because "they are already aware of it" despite the fact that there has been a forum thread about it since 12/2018 with no progress.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,176 Arc User
    edited April 6
    westmetals wrote: »
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    In the case of the DRB bug, I'm not sure how video, screenshots, etc would help... it is literally "all requirements are met, the button shows up on the skills page, but pushing the button doesn't do anything"

    the more data that we have on bugs the better. Even if it doesn't tell us exactly what's going on, it allows possibilities to be eliminated. As I was getting at earlier, bugs have to be able to be reproduced consistently to know what's busted and how to fix it. I don't like it anymore than you do, but it is what it is.

    I was not expressing a "like" or "dislike", but a QUESTION.

    In a situation of an unlocked but non-functional button, how is a screenshot supposed to provide useful information? What information would be relevant that is not able to be given by the statement that the button is able to be pushed but does nothing?
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 2,296 Bug Hunter
    westmetals wrote: »
    westmetals wrote: »
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.

    In the case of the DRB bug, I'm not sure how video, screenshots, etc would help... it is literally "all requirements are met, the button shows up on the skills page, but pushing the button doesn't do anything"

    the more data that we have on bugs the better. Even if it doesn't tell us exactly what's going on, it allows possibilities to be eliminated. As I was getting at earlier, bugs have to be able to be reproduced consistently to know what's busted and how to fix it. I don't like it anymore than you do, but it is what it is.

    I was not expressing a "like" or "dislike", but a QUESTION.

    In a situation of an unlocked but non-functional button, how is a screenshot supposed to provide useful information? What information would be relevant that is not able to be given by the statement that the button is able to be pushed but does nothing?

    Only that it sometimes gives clues into what might be causing it, so more information, if concise (or trying to be) often can help.

    Still I know some bugs, can take a longer than many would like... ...why I always try to remain hopeful when submitting them, and provide what detail I can.
    R2XG2I3.png
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 9,456 Arc User
    edited April 6
    westmetals wrote: »
    Great in theory, but my latest bug report was marked "solved" simply because "they are already aware of it" despite the fact that there has been a forum thread about it since 12/2018 with no progress.

    Solved in terms of "this is another report of bug #1274 in the bug database" which is somewhere in the work queue for a developer or team. See my note above about how the customer ticket system(s) are separate from the developer issue tracker at most companies.

    At work we would add your support ticket ID to the notes field of the existing bug as another case and as a possible source of information for replicating it,
  • will#4752 will Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    OMG did no one read the title or understand what this post was about? i`ve been made fun of because i said pc was favoured. and yes maybe that bit wasn`t necessary but it`s how we feel. i`ve then got people explain how, why and when bugs got fixed. i even got one person saying i`m upset because my pet bug didn`t get fixed. someone i admired and used to respect. and even he got it wrong. let me carefully try to explain this post. on console this bug is huge. it`s not the few times the pc guys here are reporting. i`ve avoided using cloaks in the 2 yrs i`ve been playing because of it. imagine my dread when i saw the details of the recruitment event pop up. and it came true. EVERY single battle i used cloak multiple times this would happen. chat was filled with similar complaints. this was mitigated largely by the community passing tips to get round it. before anybody pipes up with what`s the problem then, this shouldn`t have been a necessary thing to do. as i`ve said previously, on console this is a broken mechanic. so to the gist of the post. they built a large part of this event on a broken mechanic. it`s been reported how bad it is for years and still they made it. so watch ten forward at around 38 mins i believe. as i put in my first post which nobody seemed to understand. they said roughly, it was unfortunate that the bug came out around the time of the klingon recruitment event. IT DIDN`T. SO WHY DIDN`T THEY KNOW THAT? THAT is the point of my post. it is not my pet bug, it is not about fixing it. it never was. i could go on but this is already too long and i`m done. feel free to still get this post wrong and crucify me more.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,627 Arc User
    edited April 6
    A couple of things. First up simply because they don't fix someone's pet bug the instant they snap their fingers does NOT mean they don't fix bugs. We all would like to see more bugs fixed in each patch, and for that matter so would the devs. In order to fix a bug properly it takes time and evidence. They have to be able to first identify what is causing the bug and be able to reproduce it. If they can't reproduce it and identify what's causing the problem then they can't fix the bug. Knowing what's broken is also half the battle. Being able to fix it is the other half. A single one or zero out of place can bring the entire thing crashing down. With this cloak bug I have been trying to track it and reproduce it myself for awhile so I can give them something. The biggest issue I've had in reproducing this and knowing where to start is that up until recently, I had yet to see any quality footage of the bug occurring. By this I mean I could clearly see what the guy did as the bug first occurred, I could see buffs and debuffs, and down the line.

    Bugs are also fixed in order of severity and how easy they are to fix. A simple tailor bug isn't going to have the same priority as something that's zapping people's dilithium as one example. I routinely see bugs I've reported make it to final patch notes as being fixed. Problem is alot of folks like to simply say "it's broken, fix it now" which tells me or them absolutely nothing and helps nothing.

    If folks want to speed up fixes, then get some video, screenshots, logs, and similar of the bugs actually occurring so we can see ideally from start to finish what is going on. The more information the better.
    While I agree with what you are saying there is more to it then that and from a player point of view there seems or at least it feels like there is a problem with bug reporting and QA.

    Some examples this bug has been going on 3 years is 100% repeatable with plenty of evidence. The most basic of QA checks should have picked this up before it went live yet it is still a problem today and never should have got past the most basic of check lists for new items.

    All Dranuur Mines are broken and have been since day 1. The Proc mod is listed but there is no text to say what it does and what it should do doesn’t work. The first part of the bug is just a simple text change the very least that should have been fixed years ago. The mod not working is more complicated but after 3 years I would have thought it would at least be in the known bugs section if its unfixable. The 3rd part is reengineer them to radius mode with x1, x2 or x3 radius and the radius mod doesn’t work. Things like this is why players feel like bugs are just brushed aside and ignored.

    Another example the Mirror Universe Pack is something like half a year old. Players don’t get all the items listed in the pack which considering how much it costs I consider false advertising. As it involves real money, I would have thought it’s pretty high up the severity list and pretty simple to fix. Either add the item or update the text to remove the item. (Not check in a few weeks, I assume it’s still incorrect) yet half a year later players are still getting upset at being ripped off buying a pack and not getting the item which was listed. Its things like this that are giving bug reporting a bad name and making players feel like its a waste of time. EDIT: (I went into full detail in the bug reports) The other problem is the forums tell us to bug report in game but when we do the response we get back is we not longer accept bug reports or something along those lines.

    I have lost count how many times I have submitted 100% repeatable bugs with videos and nothing has come of it. While I understand some of the bugs like the cloak bug are a pain to track down and will take a while. Incorrect text not being fixed and items clearly being broken from day 1 without any basic testing shouldn't be happening as much as they do.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,460 Arc User
    Look, you do realize that they need an expert to figure this stuff out. Dr. Bunsen Honeydew is rarely available to consult. ;)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 3,303 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Look, you do realize that they need an expert to figure this stuff out. Dr. Bunsen Honeydew is rarely available to consult. ;)

    lol...
    meh

  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,110 Arc User
    will#4752 wrote: »
    OMG did no one read the title or understand what this post was about? i`ve been made fun of because i said pc was favoured. and yes maybe that bit wasn`t necessary but it`s how we feel. i`ve then got people explain how, why and when bugs got fixed. i even got one person saying i`m upset because my pet bug didn`t get fixed. someone i admired and used to respect. and even he got it wrong. let me carefully try to explain this post. on console this bug is huge. it`s not the few times the pc guys here are reporting. i`ve avoided using cloaks in the 2 yrs i`ve been playing because of it. imagine my dread when i saw the details of the recruitment event pop up. and it came true. EVERY single battle i used cloak multiple times this would happen. chat was filled with similar complaints. this was mitigated largely by the community passing tips to get round it. before anybody pipes up with what`s the problem then, this shouldn`t have been a necessary thing to do. as i`ve said previously, on console this is a broken mechanic. so to the gist of the post. they built a large part of this event on a broken mechanic. it`s been reported how bad it is for years and still they made it. so watch ten forward at around 38 mins i believe. as i put in my first post which nobody seemed to understand. they said roughly, it was unfortunate that the bug came out around the time of the klingon recruitment event. IT DIDN`T. SO WHY DIDN`T THEY KNOW THAT? THAT is the point of my post. it is not my pet bug, it is not about fixing it. it never was. i could go on but this is already too long and i`m done. feel free to still get this post wrong and crucify me more.

    This bug is much older than 2 years on console. It has been around since the game launched on console. I too do not use battle cloak because of this bug even though I primarily fly Romulan ships. It is sad that this very fundamental built in mechanic is so incredibly broken, and has been since the game launched (on console). Romulans' whole schtick is that they invented cloaking technology, and their cloaks give them a tactical advantage over the other powers. Well, not if you play console.

    What about the various transformation and separation mechanics that have been borked for years on console? Still borked. Seems rather shady to sell a product (ship with borked mechanic) that you know is faulty without informing your customer that the product does not work as advertised.
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