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Increase the maximum ec and the maximum ec to sell in exchange

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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Always the rich looking for higher caps and they claim it will reduce prices...yet in the history of STO prices never go down for long...and always rise. We know the devs will never devalue zen....so we knows prices wont go down

    So why not just be honest and admit you want higher caps so you can charge more, honesty would be refreshing!

    I would say that if that's how I felt, but I don't.

    I would rather that the sales and promos stop so that inflation drops, but I know that's not going to happen. If we can't have that, then I would at least like to be able to buy what I want on the exchange instead of trading channels where players can get scammed.

    If you're angry, fine.. but focus that at your true target. I primarily grind, convert and buy.. all I am looking to do is get the items I want back on the exchange. Your beef is not with me, I assure you we want the same thing. The players selling on the exchange are not the enemy, as their costs increase, so do prices.

    Given the drop rates on lock box ships, most sales even at 900M barely break even right now. Occasionally, yes.. someone gets lucky, gets a ship with 1 key and sells for 900M, but even then.. can you fault them for selling their item at market value? Are the really doing anything wrong?
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    While the EC inflation should be reflected by a cap increase on the exchange asap I think we look at another problem as well.

    With every new ship they put in promo and infinity boxes the amount of ships to choose from keeps on increasing while the drop rates of those ship prizes in sum stay the same. This means that while the worth of the multiple-choice boxes might stay the same the relative worth of a discrete ship in there does not do so. It does get rarer with every new addition leading to higher prises for as long as a forced pre-selection from the seller takes place.

    I think it would help a great deal already if players could put the multiple-choice boxes directly on the exchange and let the buyer then decide which ship he likes to open.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    I think it would help a great deal already if players could put the multiple-choice boxes directly on the exchange and let the buyer then decide which ship he likes to open.

    God, this would be such a welcomed change.

    This is absolutely how it should be, it's the best way to combat the problem you described.
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  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    raising the cap only causes greater inflation.

    Raising the cap has absolutely no impact on inflation. All it does is allow people to pay for things through the games interface instead of having to resort to trade channels.

    Inflation is caused by the skyrocketing value of Zen, that is caused by Cryptic constantly having sales and promos on everything. The prices you see on the exchange are a result of that inflation, the exchange does not cause or decrease inflation.

    If the cap stay the same then players will have two options, either to look him/her self for a buyer that is willing to go for more than 1,5b or to sell in range from 0-1,5b.

    If the cap is rased player will put promo ships at new max therefore inflation will 100% go up. I mean look at some scamers that trying to do fishing on the exchange with low cost items put right between highcost items(ship name and crossfaction gear).
    I like i said before the cost of 1.5b is really already hard for new players and even ones who spend 1y in the game to obtaing(thinkin only on player that don't spend 12h a day). If they rais it then only whales will be able to trade between them selves and probably new players will migrate to somthing else instead of spending their time to insane ec grinding or gambling to get some ships. And currently the rich players already has almost if not all ships in the game and in the market atm there is a lot of good ships that can go equally with overpriced ships that exceed 1,5b that some players want to do it...

    There is other way of doing this if they up the cap then they should up the gaining of ec therefore we are at square 1 and after some time people will again move from 2b ec cap to 3b and so on.
  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    Lots of winning notifications, almost no offers on the exchange.

    I felt kinda lucky when I was able to get my D7 there this weekend. I doubt I will be able to anymore during the next promo.

    Raise personal ec cap to 3B
    Raise acc bank ec cap to 2B
    Raise exchange ec cap to 2B

    With raising nothing will be done in better way. Only more and more people will be pushed out from the game cz of new insane grinding for ec.
    If people don't want to sell D7 or MW or any other promo ship on exchange for 1.5b=a lot of time of game play and farming then eventually they will lose the customers even from chat since that much high ec cap can only achive rich or no life gamers in lets say normal amount of time. And every game without enough player base will die eventually... Also chat sales will drop in time if the scams start ramping.

    The only way i think ec should be raised is if they enabe for ec to get more easier. But then it would be same story again...
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    kosmi7 wrote: »

    If the cap is rased player will put promo ships at new max therefore inflation will 100% go up.

    Nope, Sea is right with his prognosis. We had this b4 when they increased the cap for the first time and trading channels lost their meaning.

    The open competition on the exchange will equal the prices out. If the means to generate EC out of the game stay the same I assume that with a 2B cap increase we easily look at another 2 years or so till it is reached again.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    kosmi7 wrote: »
    Lots of winning notifications, almost no offers on the exchange.

    I felt kinda lucky when I was able to get my D7 there this weekend. I doubt I will be able to anymore during the next promo.

    Raise personal ec cap to 3B
    Raise acc bank ec cap to 2B
    Raise exchange ec cap to 2B

    With raising nothing will be done in better way. Only more and more people will be pushed out from the game cz of new insane grinding for ec.
    If people don't want to sell D7 or MW or any other promo ship on exchange for 1.5b=a lot of time of game play and farming then eventually they will lose the customers even from chat since that much high ec cap can only achive rich or no life gamers in lets say normal amount of time. And every game without enough player base will die eventually... Also chat sales will drop in time if the scams start ramping.

    The only way i think ec should be raised is if they enabe for ec to get more easier. But then it would be same story again...

    Viewed from the perspective of a grinder I agree with you. Means to catch on are getting more and more difficult.

    What’s paramount for cryptic here however is their income they get from box sales. Let it be players that open boxes directly or put them on the exchange.

    I haven’t eyed much on promo boxes but as far as infity lock boxes are concerned there is a clear correspondence between key prices and the prices of the ships that are put for sale. Should be similar with promo.

    For players who pay directly for the ship they want I don’t believe much has or will ever change with cap increases. Only making discrete ships artificially rarer by increasing selection does.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    kosmi7 wrote: »
    If the cap is rased player will put promo ships at new max therefore inflation will 100% go up.

    An illogical conclusion with no merit.

    Promo ships are currently valued at a price too high to list on the exchange. The exchange cap is not reducing the price of the items, it's just forcing people to sell them through other means. Raising the cap allows the items to be listed on the exchange and creates competition between sellers.

    People need to get over the idea that raising or lowering the exchange cap creates or removes inflation.. it absolutely does not. Items are worth what they're worth, if they're worth more then the exchange can accommodate then they are listed elsewhere. The current cap is not reducing items prices, it makes no sense to think that a cap increase would inflate prices.
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  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User

    Nope, Sea is right with his prognosis. We had this b4 when they increased the cap for the first time and trading channels lost their meaning.

    The open competition on the exchange will equal the prices out. If the means to generate EC out of the game stay the same I assume that with a 2B cap increase we easily look at another 2 years or so till it is reached again.

    #1 I never was looking at trading channels, that can be done even more easy if scam gets out of hand just turn off that option in game. That will force scammers to go on exchange with the cap that is in that moment.

    #2 Ye lock box ships should be bound to the price of keys. Since of direct connections.
    But still promo ships to exceed 1,5B cap is insane! Because the amount of time needed to get it. Promo ships are not bound to the keys directly but instead to Zen, and with even sales people keep pushing the price. Even though sales should enable to get more boxes and therefore more ships, and with increased number of ships price should go lower yet it goes higher, if that is not greed then i don't know what is it.

    If the cap is increased and generating amount of ec stays the same then how do we deal with insane grinding problem especially for players that can't afford 12h a day play yet alone to stay the sane of repetitive actions to get to that much ec? Where will be the line that stops inflation? What will stop then after 2 years that new promo ships will not be sold for 3b(even the ones that were sold 2b firstly), then for 4b? How many years would be needed to reach those prices? I even think if they rise the chance of getting ship drop that even with that price would be still at the highest in most cases.




  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    > @kosmi7 said:
    > If the cap is increased and generating amount of ec stays the same then how do we deal with insane grinding problem especially for players that can't afford 12h a day play yet alone to stay the sane of repetitive actions to get to that much ec? Where will be the line that stops inflation? What will stop then after 2 years that new promo ships will not be sold for 3b(even the ones that were sold 2b firstly), then for 4b? How many years would be needed to reach those prices? I even think if they rise the chance of getting ship drop that even with that price would be still at the highest in most cases.


    Question is if this is a problem for cryptic/the game or just for those who choose grinding to get their stuff.

    I think it’s just the latter. For those of us willing to pay not much changes here. I’m afraid cryptic wants it that way.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    What should also be noted is that cryptic opens up other means to get promo ships.

    The current event, mudds marked and temporary inserts in the lobi store.

    I hope they build on that more often and with a wider selection.
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    > @kosmi7 said:

    Question is if this is a problem for cryptic/the game or just for those who choose grinding to get their stuff.

    I think it’s just the latter. For those of us willing to pay not much changes here. I’m afraid cryptic wants it that way.

    I would have no problem for paying if prices was in normal range but to give 300$ for bundels with good ships or to burn from 1$ to a 1XXXX$ for lock box ships that have 0.000001% of drop is still insane. I don't own oil field to support that kind of luxury....

    Well then there is a two ways of doing it either they raise ec cap an when promo ships hit 4-5y grinding for 1 ship i am really sure that will sell good. Or they leave the cap that is and let the patients wear off and post for 1.5 wich is good time=money spend in game. They can't expand player base if it is to expencive to play and it is already in zone where you need to invest something in order to advance good in the game.
    Even forced subscription of lets say 5$ per month is cheaper then of 2 or more b ec farming if they ofc change the drop rate of ships...
  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    What should also be noted is that cryptic opens up other means to get promo ships.

    The current event, mudds marked and temporary inserts in the lobi store.

    I hope they build on that more often and with a wider selection.

    Let's say if player only want to get ships that way, then it would get 1 to 2(at best!) in year. and 1 promo. One would need 2 lifes to obtain all ships if wanted.
    And even with this event trend keeping up, lets say next year they give again promo ship as drop, that way every player that can't grind 2-3 years ec and can't toss absurd amount of cash will get desired promo ships that way. Which in return we will get crush of the exchange for ships since noone will want to buy promo ships since everyone could get one and if it repeats then 2,3... I don't want exchange to crash and atm time needed to get 1,5b is really enough for promo ship i would dare to say golden middle. Everything more or bellow that would be unfair...

    I am happy for you that you don't waste time to farming for promo ships and can aford it but let't you alone with funds and lets say me without it can't even get enough players for TFO team, and if we lose players cz of the grind and apsurd prices of the ships then everything you and me that invested in the game will be gone...

    That is why i am against of increasing of ec gap.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    So why not just be honest and admit you want higher caps so you can charge more, honesty would be refreshing!

    They can do that even without a cap increase, if inflation goes beyond the EC cap EC they'll start asking for keys in addition to EC. So one day the trade price for a promo ship might be 2 Billion EC + 100 Keys or something like that.
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  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    What should also be noted is that cryptic opens up other means to get promo ships.

    The current event, mudds marked and temporary inserts in the lobi store.

    I hope they build on that more often and with a wider selection.

    I forgot one thing to say, even with the price of 1b so no 1,5 1! Drop rate is still the same! Players should also be able to profit from selling the ships for the price of 1b. You can go and take sheet with data from CausalSAB and do the math. With 2b per ship the earnings would be even more greater which will lead to unfear advantage and in the end what would people do with that much ec in the pocket if they are at point that they can mass sell T6 ships from boxes...
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    > @kosmi7 said:
    > Let's say if player only want to get ships that way, then it would get 1 to 2(at best!) in year. and 1 promo. One would need 2 lifes to obtain all ships if wanted.
    > And even with this event trend keeping up, lets say next year they give again promo ship as drop, that way every player that can't grind 2-3 years ec and can't toss absurd amount of cash will get desired promo ships that way. Which in return we will get crush of the exchange for ships since noone will want to buy promo ships since everyone could get one and if it repeats then 2,3... I don't want exchange to crash and atm time needed to get 1,5b is really enough for promo ship i would dare to say golden middle. Everything more or bellow that would be unfair...
    >
    > I am happy for you that you don't waste time to farming for promo ships and can aford it but let't you alone with funds and lets say me without it can't even get enough players for TFO team, and if we lose players cz of the grind and apsurd prices of the ships then everything you and me that invested in the game will be gone...
    >
    > That is why i am against of increasing of ec gap.


    I understand and share your frustration. Grind is also a central part of my daily life in STO. For high end performance player it is really tough as the best items more and more originate from lock box and promo releases.

    I just wanted to explain that a cap increase at the exchange does not increase the promo ship:EC ratio. It likely lowers it for the time being not to mention ensures availability for us.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,225 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    > @lianthelia said:
    > Always the rich looking for higher caps and they claim it will reduce prices...yet in the history of STO prices never go down for long...and always rise. We know the devs will never devalue zen....so we knows prices wont go down
    >
    > So why not just be honest and admit you want higher caps so you can charge more, honesty would be refreshing!


    The misconception that an ec cap dictates or limits the worth of items is strong in this thread. :|

    It is completely wrong. If an items worth moves above the exchange cap it is simply traded via other means getting out of reach for those who only tend to the exchange.

    At the moment we witness a situation where the current promo barely manages to drop promo ship prices at or lightly below the exchange cap of 1,5B ec.

    Before that and afterwards the trade of those ships will continue in private channels for prices up to around 2B EC (seen that already). There never have been any caps there not to mention a free market. Neither f2p grinder nor players who pay rl money just to get a ship would ever want them in there. ;)
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
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    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
  • garaks31garaks31 Member Posts: 2,845 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    so people make, 500+ mili profit from a single item nowadays. something must be done against exc. hoarders. my suggestion ,if the account gets one of the promo! ships ,the next same one 70 dollars +350 lobi
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    I still
    I think it would help a great deal already if players could put the multiple-choice boxes directly on the exchange and let the buyer then decide which ship he likes to open.

    This would be such a welcomed change. There is no reason why the choice boxes (infinity, promo, etc.) should not be tradeable. This I think would help in equalizing the prices of promo ships at least, either for good or ill.
    garaks31 wrote: »
    so people make, 500+ mili profit from a single item nowadays. something must be done against exc. hoarders. my suggestion ,if the account gets one of the promo! ships ,the next same one 70 dollars +350 lobi

    How does that make Cryptic profit? A change will never be made unless it means profit for Cryptic.

  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    garaffe wrote: »
    I still
    I think it would help a great deal already if players could put the multiple-choice boxes directly on the exchange and let the buyer then decide which ship he likes to open.

    This would be such a welcomed change. There is no reason why the choice boxes (infinity, promo, etc.) should not be tradeable. This I think would help in equalizing the prices of promo ships at least, either for good or ill.
    garaks31 wrote: »
    so people make, 500+ mili profit from a single item nowadays. something must be done against exc. hoarders. my suggestion ,if the account gets one of the promo! ships ,the next same one 70 dollars +350 lobi

    How does that make Cryptic profit? A change will never be made unless it means profit for Cryptic.


    #1 Yes but then the question would still remains unanswered how much for the box then?

    #2 Cryptic can lose whole game if this trend keeps up since no player want to spend 200 years farming something if he/she does not have cash to throw. Also much more profit could be done if they change some aspects of the game instead of living from the gambling...
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,698 Community Moderator
    While I agree that increasing the EC limits will expose more of the market for players to see what items are really going for, it's ultimately a band-aid solution that doesn't address the root problems. The exchange is almost entirely driven by the laws of supply and demand. A couple of problems we have right now is runaway inflation with EC, plus a very minute supply of ships that's been taxed even heavier by them removing the cross faction packs as an alternative means for gaining certain items. The cross faction packs helped keep certain ships in check since their items could be found in packs, and the entire ship wasn't always needed to obtain the items. Why would someone buy a full Atlas class when they only wanted the DPRM console from the ship? That option has now been removed from the playerbase. While ships were already creeping up in price, removing the cross faction packs put that price increase into overdrive.

    For EC a viable sink needs to be put in game to remove some of the excess EC in the game. Right now there are no viable EC sinks, which is akin to having a stopper in a bathtub and an infinitely running faucet going. Eventually it's going to overflow. Right now there is nothing keeping the EC supply consistent or somewhat consistent.

    Next they need to up the supply of the ships with some lobi promotions and similar to bring the prices back down to earth. An easy way to reign some of those ships in would be like said above, let folks sell the choice packs themselves on the exchange. This creates a universal market where some of the more problem ships will be stabilized by being in the choice packs. There may be a brief period where the choice packs spike due to demand, but they will eventually level off and come back down to earth. Folks wouldn't be able to charge 1.5b for a single pre-defined ship anymore when someone could pay less and get a ship of their choice. Always irked me that folks can't just pick their ship and roll. They can increase supply of ships without giving away the keys to the castle. Last bit would be removing certain speculators from the picture also.

    Until inflation and supply issues are addressed, there will continue to be issues.
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  • dukedom01dukedom01 Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    EC is stored as signed 32-bit integer which has a maximum value of 2,147,483,647.
    So they cannot 'simply' just raise the cap on a whim.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    dukedom01 wrote: »
    EC is stored as signed 32-bit integer which has a maximum value of 2,147,483,647.
    So they cannot 'simply' just raise the cap on a whim.

    They CAN raise the exchange cap though which is the most immediate problem. They also should get started on whatever work needs to be done to change EC to a 64-bit integer or something else to increase the overall cap, otherwise as I said earlier inflation will eventually get to the point where Keys actually get used as a supplemental currency in private ship trades to get around the cap.
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  • dukedom01dukedom01 Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    dukedom01 wrote: »
    EC is stored as signed 32-bit integer which has a maximum value of 2,147,483,647.
    So they cannot 'simply' just raise the cap on a whim.

    They CAN raise the exchange cap though [...]

    Given that any transaction exceeding the 32integer limit simply vanishes it would make for an excellent EC sink.
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  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    dukedom01 wrote: »
    EC is stored as signed 32-bit integer which has a maximum value of 2,147,483,647.
    So they cannot 'simply' just raise the cap on a whim.

    Could you explain how that works? I am not a computer scientist, so I don't understand what you are saying.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,969 Community Moderator
    garaffe wrote: »
    Could you explain how that works? I am not a computer scientist, so I don't understand what you are saying.

    I believe he's saying that beyond a certain point, the system cannot function. You can't run an N64 game on a SNES basically.

    Another way to look at it is a cup full of water. It can only hold so much. Anything over that... just spills out and is unusable. It will only register what the cup can hold.
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  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    While I agree that increasing the EC limits will expose more of the market for players to see what items are really going for, it's ultimately a band-aid solution that doesn't address the root problems. The exchange is almost entirely driven by the laws of supply and demand. A couple of problems we have right now is runaway inflation with EC, plus a very minute supply of ships that's been taxed even heavier by them removing the cross faction packs as an alternative means for gaining certain items. The cross faction packs helped keep certain ships in check since their items could be found in packs, and the entire ship wasn't always needed to obtain the items. Why would someone buy a full Atlas class when they only wanted the DPRM console from the ship? That option has now been removed from the playerbase. While ships were already creeping up in price, removing the cross faction packs put that price increase into overdrive.

    For EC a viable sink needs to be put in game to remove some of the excess EC in the game. Right now there are no viable EC sinks, which is akin to having a stopper in a bathtub and an infinitely running faucet going. Eventually it's going to overflow. Right now there is nothing keeping the EC supply consistent or somewhat consistent.

    Next they need to up the supply of the ships with some lobi promotions and similar to bring the prices back down to earth. An easy way to reign some of those ships in would be like said above, let folks sell the choice packs themselves on the exchange. This creates a universal market where some of the more problem ships will be stabilized by being in the choice packs. There may be a brief period where the choice packs spike due to demand, but they will eventually level off and come back down to earth. Folks wouldn't be able to charge 1.5b for a single pre-defined ship anymore when someone could pay less and get a ship of their choice. Always irked me that folks can't just pick their ship and roll. They can increase supply of ships without giving away the keys to the castle. Last bit would be removing certain speculators from the picture also.

    Until inflation and supply issues are addressed, there will continue to be issues.

    Then why they removed cross faction packs? Why adding more oil to the fire?

    Is it possible to enable some ships from promo boxes or lock boxes(lets say >1y old) to be bought with higher amount of loby crystal as special ones ? Or some ec conversion to dil?

    We are throwing ideas here without knowing is there even will or something to work on this problem from dev side? One info is enough to have at least hope to keep playing the game so that one day some things would be reached. And to calm the spirits for some time...
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    kosmi7 wrote: »
    Then why they removed cross faction packs?

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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    dukedom01 wrote: »
    EC is stored as signed 32-bit integer which has a maximum value of 2,147,483,647.
    So they cannot 'simply' just raise the cap on a whim.

    It's not that difficult to replace "int" with "int64" in code, and for database fields you can just change the schema and do it instantly. That increase the max into the quintillions.

    The tricky part is finding all use of the variable in the code, and making sure there are no cases where 32-bit math is assumed, like with a temporary variable.
  • kosmi7kosmi7 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    kosmi7 wrote: »
    Then why they removed cross faction packs?

    6d73f5809eee71835de9a1667fd00b04.jpg

    But but where is the logic in that?!?!
    More grinding less players that can throw large amount of money.
    Less grinding more players that can throw normal amount of money wich can exceed the first way. 10x500> 2x1000...
    Especially now where we have new trek series and new generations getting hooked on it.

    Btw love the meme! :)
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