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Test results of 12,000 lockboxes on Tribble

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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,321 Community Moderator
    Who are "some of these guys"? And what lies were they trying to tell you that you were able to discern they were lying?
    Some of them having to keep a poker face when it comes to upcoming things and having to pretend they don't know as much as they do from time to time. Just say some of them shouldn't go to a casino and play poker. Beyond that I can't say more cause NDA.
    Hasn't SWTOR actually started selling what used to be lockbox items in it's store for set prices? I've bought a number of armor sets that used to be in lockboxes and was happy to be able to do so. And for the items they aren't selling in the store, can't people buy them from other players on the in game exchange like in STO? What is bad about either of those things?
    I think I need to elaborate a bit on why I use the SWTOR example and why folks don't want that kind of model coming to STO like folks think they do.

    To answer your question, there are two ways you can get items. You can bust packs, or you can wait for your desired item(s) to make it to the store. They don't always appear in the store right away. However generally folks may not like the prices some items come in at. For those items you pay the initial price to get the item the first time, then you pay an additional bit of cartel coins to unlock the item account wide. You can also buy most items on the exchange or in through private trades in the trade channel on the fleet social zones. Probably sounds good so far just from those bits I'm sure, account wide unlocks of items, buy everything from stores for a set price. While it may sound good so far, folks are often focused on the low hanging fruit of account wide unlocks and don't take the downsides of the full model into account that come with it. They also neglect the key difference between SWTOR and STO as to why their model is the way it is also.

    The key difference between SWTOR and STO is that their items are all cosmetic in the stores save for a very select few exceptions. I don't know what you prefer to actually do in game, but let's suppose you are a DPS and I'm a tank. You and I could both have the same lightsaber hilt from the store, and while they might be cosmetically the same, under the hood they're completely different. In SWTOR items from the stores are cosmetic shells that get their stats from the mods you place in the item. Although we can largely roll the modifiers on weapons, certain equipment sets and similar, those stats are attached to the weapons and equipment itself. For ships in STO, the stats of the ship along with boff seating, all drastically effect the possible builds that can be done with the ship itself. It would make it more convenient for folks in terms of getting ships, consoles, and other items to create their builds but there are 2 downsides. One: it removes a large money maker for Cryptic. Two: it also removes a potential motivating factor for folks to keep playing to grab additional items. Admittedly the second downside can be argued that if ships are too expensive or too hard to get it won't matter anyways, however I guarantee Cryptic would see it as removing a reason to login and play. This means Cryptic will need new ways of making cash to make up for the changes and something else to keep folks logging in and playing since one of those reasons went away.

    Under their model SWTOR has various restrictions implemented that nickel and dime folks. As one example, you can't enter their raids typically without a weekly pass you have to buy with cartel coins. You also can't use artifact items without an authorization, which would be the equivalent in STO of not being able to equip epics without an unlock. You can't access certain areas without either a pass, subscription, or preferred status. There is a cap on the amount of credits you can hold, with everything else going into an escrow. To access these additional credits/EC you would need to purchase an item that allows you to pull those credits from escrow, or simply subscribe. You can also only have so many characters activated at a time and you have a lower character slot limit. In STO terms, think of the Dry Dock feature as a rough equivalent. You essentially "turn off" the characters that go past the limit. You can also only learn 2 crew skills/professions, unless you unlock that slot or subscribe. You also only get so many field revives per day before you have to respawn at medical centers. Extra revives you have to purchase. You also can't fast travel more than once or twice per day. Your fast travel is limited to pre-defined flight paths, and should you fly over your quest area, you can't just bail out, you have to wait until you land, then run all the way back over there. The biggest one though, is you only get 25% the amount of experience a sub will get. Now you could pay to unlock alot of this stuff, but you're looking at well over $200 to do so, AND some of those things will be ongoing expenses that could potentially equal out to more than a monthly sub. Yet if you subscribe at $15 a month, or one of their other plans, all that goes away and you can play as normal. Some of that you might say "but can't they just buy that stuff off the exchange" and while they can buy most of those things off the exchange, they often sell for more than free to play folks can hold in terms of credits, or they sell right at the cap.

    So imagine if you will that suddenly in STO, you were only able to earn experience at 25% the rate a subscriber did, including while trying to level ships. 1-2 patrols to get a ship trait has suddenly become 4-8 patrols. You now have to pay to use epic gear, have to pay to access new content, have to pay to get into certain TFOs or patrols, have to pay to use the doff system, can only learn 1-2 schools from the R&D system, have to "dry dock" a bunch of toons you're not using or similar, can't access your credits over a certain amount without paying for an escrow transfer, if you get blown up in a non-TFO mission you have to respawn at ESD, DS9, or one of the other social hubs and have to fly all the way back out to the mission because you've already used your daily limit of transwarps. In SWTOR they can make it work because they've built around it from the start, and folks can get those items multiple different ways. You can also buy cheap mods from vendors to get you through until you can get into the higher tiers of content and can farm stuff out the normal ways. In STO it would be a radical departure from the game as we know it now. If you think folks complain about lockboxes and certain changes that happen now, let's just say I would need a combination radiation/fire suit just to get my foot in the door on these forums from folks going nuclear.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    To answer your question, there are two ways you can get items. You can bust packs, or you can wait for your desired item(s) to make it to the store. They don't always appear in the store right away.

    I'm pretty sure that within the past year or two they've changed that so that there are never any new packs anymore, new items just go straight into the store.
    So imagine if you will that suddenly in STO ...

    I personally would be more than happy to sign up for a new subscription on top of the lifetime sub I already have if it meant the end of gambleboxes. I HATE the entire F2P concept, and honestly I can't help but feel a little resentment towards those who refuse to pay a measly $15 a month to subscribe to an online game they enjoy that actively gets new content added on a regular basis.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Some of them having to keep a poker face when it comes to upcoming things and having to pretend they don't know as much as they do from time to time. Just say some of them shouldn't go to a casino and play poker. Beyond that I can't say more cause NDA.

    You didn't actually answer WHO you are talking about. WHO are these "terrible liars"(to quote your last post)? Devs?

    If so, I'm sorry to hear they were trying to lie to you.

    Under their model SWTOR has various restrictions implemented that nickel and dime folks.

    Yeah, there are some things about TOR's model I don't like. But being able to buy lockbox items in the store for a set price, and then being able to purchase an account unlock is definitely a great feature.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,107 Arc User

    To answer your question, there are two ways you can get items. You can bust packs, or you can wait for your desired item(s) to make it to the store. They don't always appear in the store right away.

    I'm pretty sure that within the past year or two they've changed that so that there are never any new packs anymore, new items just go straight into the store.
    So imagine if you will that suddenly in STO ...

    I personally would be more than happy to sign up for a new subscription on top of the lifetime sub I already have if it meant the end of gambleboxes. I HATE the entire F2P concept, and honestly I can't help but feel a little resentment towards those who refuse to pay a measly $15 a month to subscribe to an online game they enjoy that actively gets new content added on a regular basis.

    if you mean the SW store, ok, if you mean the STO store, nope.

    i also would pay the 15 a month on top of my paid lifer already to garner some better aspects of the game and make it less LB and more viable via in game currency or some other way to get things. i dont always like the ships in the boxes anyway, but the vanity shields and some other items are of interest. and if the monthly sub was allowing to get these items in other "obtainable" ways, sign me up.
    meh

  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,701 Arc User
    Some of them having to keep a poker face when it comes to upcoming things and having to pretend they don't know as much as they do from time to time. Just say some of them shouldn't go to a casino and play poker. Beyond that I can't say more cause NDA.

    You didn't actually answer WHO you are talking about. WHO are these "terrible liars"(to quote your last post)? Devs?

    If so, I'm sorry to hear they were trying to lie to you.

    Under their model SWTOR has various restrictions implemented that nickel and dime folks.

    Yeah, there are some things about TOR's model I don't like. But being able to buy lockbox items in the store for a set price, and then being able to purchase an account unlock is definitely a great feature.

    Yeah they both have their problems, but at least with ToR, if you sub...you really have no limits, where as even as a LTS...I'm still limited by the system. There is no way I'm going to be able to earn more than 9k refined ore a day...where as you can earn as many credits as you're able to and buy stuff off the exchange, or as you mentioned pay a straight fee to get the item you want.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,621 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    lianthelia wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Or do events and get a FREE ship. 3 regular event ships a year, every year, plus meta events for 1+ ships a year.

    Oh...so I just need to do a event and get my favorite ship, the D7 for free? And then the next event I can get the Discovery D7...then after that the Kelvin too?

    Thanks...I didn't know I could get any ship I want for free by just doing a event!

    I didn't say "any ship" but actually you CAN get a free D7 from the meta-event. In previous years we've been given free C-Store tokens for any regular (not Mudds or Legendary) C-Store ship.

    You claimed "This game is so predatory these days it isn't even funny" which is of course an opinion you're entitled to. It just doesn't seem like a reasonable opinion to me given how much free stuff we're given, much more than is needed to play all endgame content.

    Do you know why people play STO? So they can live out their Star Trek fantasies...and do you know what the devs to? Grow more and more predatory towards those fantasies. Do you think a player started playing STO so he could fly a Risian sciecne vessel or Fekihri carrier?

    No they play STO because they want to command the legendary ships they see on the screens! But as time goes on the devs are more and more predatory with those ships...be it costly legendary packs or gamble boxes with such abysmal pull rates they make gacha games look generous...basically if you see something on screen for more than a few minutes, from now on they're going to gouge you.

    Crossfield: (Discovery) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    Inquiry: (Mass produced ship Riker commanded) promo
    Connie: (Same with the D7) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    La Sirena: Promo
    Dhailkhina: Lock box
    Janeway: (Voyager J) Promo

    Discovery/Picard are supposed to bring in new players? Gonna have a hard time retaining them when you're so damn greedy and predatory and they find out they need to spend hundreds of dollars to get the ship they dream of commanding

    I feel the need to play devil's advocate here. While Picard has been milked exclusively, Discovery does have a better track record. There are a lot of 23c Federation and Klingon ships available in the C-Store that appeared in the show. Obviously, they didn't have a 'starring role' like the Promo/Lockbox ships, but they did appear in the show in atleast a supporting role(Europa/Nimitz, Sech, etc.). We even got the Vulcan "Solkar"(T'pau) as a free Event Ship.

    In list form, for comparative analysis:
    Nimitz(Europa): C-Store
    Shepard(Gagarin): C-Store
    Cardenas(Buran): C-Store
    Magee(Shran): C-Store
    Hernandez(Somerville): C-Store
    Hoover(Edison): C-Store
    Qugh: C-Store
    Qoj: C-Store
    Sech: C-Store
    Batlh: C-Store
    Chargh: C-Store

    NCIA-93(S31 Intel SciDes): Lockbox
    Na'Qjej: Lockbox
    Sarcophagus: Lockbox
    Ba'ul Sentry: Lockbox
    Terran Styx: Lockbox

    Nimrod(S31 BC): Promo
    D7(MWFDC): Promo
    Janeway(Voyager-J): Promo

    T'pau: Event

    Walker(Shenzhou): 3 versions - Starter Bundle C-Store, Lobi, Legendary C-Store
    DSC Constitution: 3 versions - Promo(MWFDC), Lockbox(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(TOFDC)
    Crossfield(Discovery): 3 versions - Lockbox(Spearhead), Promo(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(Glenn)
    Engle(Earhart): 2 versions - C-Store, Lockbox(Mirror)
    M'Chla: 2 versions - C-store, Event(Refit)


    C-Store(Permanent): 15
    C-Store(Limited): 2
    Lobi: 1
    Lockbox: 8
    Promo: 5
    Event: 2

    There are (currently) more permanent DSC C-Store ships in the game than there are Lobi, Lockbox, and Promo ships, combined. That said, I am a little concerned about the trend set from the Janeway Class for Season 3(it was a footnote ship, at best, in the show; The Nimitz class got more attention than it did.), but I guess time will tell.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,701 Arc User
    szerontzur wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Or do events and get a FREE ship. 3 regular event ships a year, every year, plus meta events for 1+ ships a year.

    Oh...so I just need to do a event and get my favorite ship, the D7 for free? And then the next event I can get the Discovery D7...then after that the Kelvin too?

    Thanks...I didn't know I could get any ship I want for free by just doing a event!

    I didn't say "any ship" but actually you CAN get a free D7 from the meta-event. In previous years we've been given free C-Store tokens for any regular (not Mudds or Legendary) C-Store ship.

    You claimed "This game is so predatory these days it isn't even funny" which is of course an opinion you're entitled to. It just doesn't seem like a reasonable opinion to me given how much free stuff we're given, much more than is needed to play all endgame content.

    Do you know why people play STO? So they can live out their Star Trek fantasies...and do you know what the devs to? Grow more and more predatory towards those fantasies. Do you think a player started playing STO so he could fly a Risian sciecne vessel or Fekihri carrier?

    No they play STO because they want to command the legendary ships they see on the screens! But as time goes on the devs are more and more predatory with those ships...be it costly legendary packs or gamble boxes with such abysmal pull rates they make gacha games look generous...basically if you see something on screen for more than a few minutes, from now on they're going to gouge you.

    Crossfield: (Discovery) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    Inquiry: (Mass produced ship Riker commanded) promo
    Connie: (Same with the D7) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    La Sirena: Promo
    Dhailkhina: Lock box
    Janeway: (Voyager J) Promo

    Discovery/Picard are supposed to bring in new players? Gonna have a hard time retaining them when you're so damn greedy and predatory and they find out they need to spend hundreds of dollars to get the ship they dream of commanding

    I feel the need to play devil's advocate here. While Picard has been milked exclusively, Discovery does have a better track record. There are a lot of 23c Federation and Klingon ships available in the C-Store that appeared in the show. Obviously, they didn't have a 'starring role' like the Promo/Lockbox ships, but they did appear in the show in atleast a supporting role(Europa/Nimitz, Sech, etc.). We even got the Vulcan "Solkar"(T'pau) as a free Event Ship.

    In list form, for comparative analysis:
    Nimitz(Europa): C-Store
    Shepard(Gagarin): C-Store
    Cardenas(Buran): C-Store
    Magee(Shran): C-Store
    Hernandez(Somerville): C-Store
    Hoover(Edison): C-Store
    Qugh: C-Store
    Qoj: C-Store
    Sech: C-Store
    Batlh: C-Store
    Chargh: C-Store

    NCIA-93(S31 Intel SciDes): Lockbox
    Na'Qjej: Lockbox
    Sarcophagus: Lockbox
    Ba'ul Sentry: Lockbox
    Terran Styx: Lockbox

    Nimrod(S31 BC): Promo
    D7(MWFDC): Promo
    Janeway(Voyager-J): Promo

    T'pau: Event

    Walker(Shenzhou): 3 versions - Starter Bundle C-Store, Lobi, Legendary C-Store
    DSC Constitution: 3 versions - Promo(MWFDC), Lockbox(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(TOFDC)
    Crossfield(Discovery): 3 versions - Lockbox(Spearhead), Promo(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(Glenn)
    Engle(Earhart): 2 versions - C-Store, Lockbox(Mirror)
    M'Chla: 2 versions - C-store, Event(Refit)


    C-Store(Permanent): 15
    C-Store(Limited): 2
    Lobi: 1
    Lockbox: 8
    Promo: 5
    Event: 2

    There are (currently) more permanent DSC C-Store ships in the game than there are Lobi, Lockbox, and Promo ships, combined. That said, I am a little concerned about the trend set from the Janeway Class for Season 3(it was a footnote ship, at best, in the show; The Nimitz class got more attention than it did.), but I guess time will tell.

    I said legendary ships, none of the c-store ships are legendary...they were all ships seen a couple times and that was it. The Buran was the closest thing and even then the Cardenas class was seen but a couple times on screen?

    Every single Discovery ship that was seen on screen more than a few times (except for 1...the BoP) is either lock box or promo...every ship we've gotten from Picard has been lock box or promo

    Discovery, Enterprise, and the Section 31 ships are the only Starfleet ships from Discovery we saw more than a 2/3 times...all gamble

    Once again I ask you...do you think most people want to command a BoP or the legendary D7 or Sarcophagus?

    Do you think people want to command a Engle or Magee...or do they want to captain the experimental Crossfield or legendary Constitution class?

    No, typically people want to command the legendary ships...why you think people spent years and years asking for a T5/6 Constitution?
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,621 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    szerontzur wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Or do events and get a FREE ship. 3 regular event ships a year, every year, plus meta events for 1+ ships a year.

    Oh...so I just need to do a event and get my favorite ship, the D7 for free? And then the next event I can get the Discovery D7...then after that the Kelvin too?

    Thanks...I didn't know I could get any ship I want for free by just doing a event!

    I didn't say "any ship" but actually you CAN get a free D7 from the meta-event. In previous years we've been given free C-Store tokens for any regular (not Mudds or Legendary) C-Store ship.

    You claimed "This game is so predatory these days it isn't even funny" which is of course an opinion you're entitled to. It just doesn't seem like a reasonable opinion to me given how much free stuff we're given, much more than is needed to play all endgame content.

    Do you know why people play STO? So they can live out their Star Trek fantasies...and do you know what the devs to? Grow more and more predatory towards those fantasies. Do you think a player started playing STO so he could fly a Risian sciecne vessel or Fekihri carrier?

    No they play STO because they want to command the legendary ships they see on the screens! But as time goes on the devs are more and more predatory with those ships...be it costly legendary packs or gamble boxes with such abysmal pull rates they make gacha games look generous...basically if you see something on screen for more than a few minutes, from now on they're going to gouge you.

    Crossfield: (Discovery) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    Inquiry: (Mass produced ship Riker commanded) promo
    Connie: (Same with the D7) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    La Sirena: Promo
    Dhailkhina: Lock box
    Janeway: (Voyager J) Promo

    Discovery/Picard are supposed to bring in new players? Gonna have a hard time retaining them when you're so damn greedy and predatory and they find out they need to spend hundreds of dollars to get the ship they dream of commanding

    I feel the need to play devil's advocate here. While Picard has been milked exclusively, Discovery does have a better track record. There are a lot of 23c Federation and Klingon ships available in the C-Store that appeared in the show. Obviously, they didn't have a 'starring role' like the Promo/Lockbox ships, but they did appear in the show in atleast a supporting role(Europa/Nimitz, Sech, etc.). We even got the Vulcan "Solkar"(T'pau) as a free Event Ship.

    In list form, for comparative analysis:
    Nimitz(Europa): C-Store
    Shepard(Gagarin): C-Store
    Cardenas(Buran): C-Store
    Magee(Shran): C-Store
    Hernandez(Somerville): C-Store
    Hoover(Edison): C-Store
    Qugh: C-Store
    Qoj: C-Store
    Sech: C-Store
    Batlh: C-Store
    Chargh: C-Store

    NCIA-93(S31 Intel SciDes): Lockbox
    Na'Qjej: Lockbox
    Sarcophagus: Lockbox
    Ba'ul Sentry: Lockbox
    Terran Styx: Lockbox

    Nimrod(S31 BC): Promo
    D7(MWFDC): Promo
    Janeway(Voyager-J): Promo

    T'pau: Event

    Walker(Shenzhou): 3 versions - Starter Bundle C-Store, Lobi, Legendary C-Store
    DSC Constitution: 3 versions - Promo(MWFDC), Lockbox(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(TOFDC)
    Crossfield(Discovery): 3 versions - Lockbox(Spearhead), Promo(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(Glenn)
    Engle(Earhart): 2 versions - C-Store, Lockbox(Mirror)
    M'Chla: 2 versions - C-store, Event(Refit)


    C-Store(Permanent): 15
    C-Store(Limited): 2
    Lobi: 1
    Lockbox: 8
    Promo: 5
    Event: 2

    There are (currently) more permanent DSC C-Store ships in the game than there are Lobi, Lockbox, and Promo ships, combined. That said, I am a little concerned about the trend set from the Janeway Class for Season 3(it was a footnote ship, at best, in the show; The Nimitz class got more attention than it did.), but I guess time will tell.

    I said legendary ships, none of the c-store ships are legendary...they were all ships seen a couple times and that was it. The Buran was the closest thing and even then the Cardenas class was seen but a couple times on screen?

    Every single Discovery ship that was seen on screen more than a few times (except for 1...the BoP) is either lock box or promo...every ship we've gotten from Picard has been lock box or promo

    Discovery, Enterprise, and the Section 31 ships are the only Starfleet ships from Discovery we saw more than a 2/3 times...all gamble

    Once again I ask you...do you think most people want to command a BoP or the legendary D7 or Sarcophagus?

    Do you think people want to command a Engle or Magee...or do they want to captain the experimental Crossfield or legendary Constitution class?

    No, typically people want to command the legendary ships...why you think people spent years and years asking for a T5/6 Constitution?

    This is certainly starting to veer a bit off-topic, but.. I'm not buying the paradigm you're selling. Not saying it's wrong or bad; just that I don't agree(, respectfully).

    Most of those ships C-Store ships had more screen time and (and actually did more with the time they were given) than the Inquiry class. Most of the Lockbox ships are Antagonist ships - about half of which belong to non-playable factions(that includes mirror terrans). Most of the Promo ships are Hero/Villain ships.

    Granted, I confess I've never been interested in 'hero worship/emulation'(my stance has always been: Why not try to become your own hero instead of imitating someone else?). I find the Constitution, Crossfield and even Galaxy class ships ugly and over-engineered; my favorite federation ship is still the Akira(had a soft spot for the Miranda before then). I kind of feel the same way about the D7(too 'standard issue'/uninteresting) and the Sarco(regard it more as an ancient flying temple/graveyard than a proper space ship for interspecies 'interactions').

    I also confess I tend to groan when I see ships like the Inquiry and Janeway in a Promo box. Not because I want them, but because I feel they are entirely too underdeveloped(in the context of the Star Trek multiverse) to belong there. Book's ship? Sure; The Viridian? Sure(much to my chagrin); ANY of the Federation/Ni'var 32c ships? No way. STO has already established that the era a ship comes from is completely irrelevant(we have ships ranging from 22c to 31c in the C-Store already).
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    Snipped.

    This just about perfectly covered why I stopped playing SWTOR. Enjoyed the setting, the gameplay, hated the funding model. Another thing that wasn't mentioned here is that you have to subscribe to get the equivalent of new episodes and to go above the equivalent of level 50.

    Putting up with ship sales and lockboxes as the funding model is much nicer.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,321 Community Moderator
    Yeah, there are some things about TOR's model I don't like. But being able to buy lockbox items in the store for a set price, and then being able to purchase an account unlock is definitely a great feature.
    It's definitely more convenient, I agree there. However what folks don't seem to understand, or perhaps even care about with a SWTOR type model is you're not going to get the benefits without the downsides that come with them. Too many seem to think they're going to just let folks start unlocking stuff account wide without some kind of catch to it or downside elsewhere like there is in SWTOR to make up for lost revenue of everything being an account unlock. Too many seem to think they're going to just let folks unlock everything account wide and change nothing else, and that's just not going to happen. The account wide unlocks are the low hanging fruit, and folks aren't thinking about the downsides that will come with a model like SWTOR's coming to STO. You might be able to get account unlocks, but all the nickel and dime stuff, all the petty restrictions, and everything is going to come with it.
    I'm pretty sure that within the past year or two they've changed that so that there are never any new packs anymore, new items just go straight into the store.
    They still have the packs, they've just slightly sped up the rate that stuff appears in the stores. They also have some items that go into the cartel market straight away. Depends on the item. The big bonus they did do is that if you go awhile having not gotten something decent from a pack, the chance of pulling rare items goes up immensely until you hit something. May not be something you wanted, but you will hit something.
    I personally would be more than happy to sign up for a new subscription on top of the lifetime sub I already have if it meant the end of gambleboxes. I HATE the entire F2P concept, and honestly I can't help but feel a little resentment towards those who refuse to pay a measly $15 a month to subscribe to an online game they enjoy that actively gets new content added on a regular basis.
    Where as you and I might be willing to do that, not everyone would. Remember STO used to be subscription based but went free to play with the sub option still being available. I don't mind the concept of free to play and I recognize they have to make money somehow if they're going to let folks in the gate for free. The problem I have with the free to play concept is when they make ultra powerful items X Y Z that are required to do anything worthwhile in game, and make them available only through purchases with no other way to obtain them, and charging you through the nose for them. Think something like Battlefront before EA was forced to pull the boxes from the game. You were required to buy the boxes basically. Although you could farm them by regular play it would have taken 50 literal years of play at the rate they set it at. I don't mind F2P as a concept as long as it's done right. If they want to bring out powerful items that's fine as long as they're not required to do well in game, and there is an alternative method to acquire them that doesn't demand an unreasonable standard to get said item. STO is one of the only true free to play games out there which doesn't limit you for not having box/promo items, while giving you an alternative means of getting them. I'm no fan of the lockboxes either but I get why they exist.

    With that in mind, if STO were to go to a SWTOR type model, like I said previously I would have to wear a combination radiation/fire suit just to step foot in this place. My point behind the comparison is folks are too focused on the low hanging fruit of account wide unlocks without thinking of the other downsides that by necessity come with it.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    Remember STO used to be subscription based but went free to play

    Imo the reason STO wasn't making enough money with subs alone is because the game was a massive pile of tribbles at launch, if it had launched with the content and fixes it has now I think it would have performed a lot better. I do realize that going back to that model wouldn't be an option at this point, and PWE probably wouldn't allow it anyway.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,900 Arc User
    Remember STO used to be subscription based but went free to play

    Imo the reason STO wasn't making enough money with subs alone is because the game was a massive pile of tribbles at launch, if it had launched with the content and fixes it has now I think it would have performed a lot better. I do realize that going back to that model wouldn't be an option at this point, and PWE probably wouldn't allow it anyway.

    The fact of F2P in Western MMOs is this:

    F2P has ALWAYS generated MORE money/profit than the Subscription paradigm hands down<--- That's always been the case from when F2P first appeared in the Asian MMO market.

    The Western MMO developers ALL wanted to go to F2P as soon as they saw the profit potential, BUT, they honestly believed that after nearly a decade of the Subscription model -- Western MMO players would never really 'go for it.'

    Que the initial subscription DISASTER that was the MMO "Dungeons and Dragons" online. The developer was faced with two options:

    1) Sunset the game.

    2) Throw some more money into the development of the game (IE to convert it to an F2P model); and see if that makes it profitable enough to recoup all development costs and turn a profit.

    The DDXO development company went with option 2 and within 6 months of that 'relaunch' had turned DDO into a profitable MMO and OTHER MMO developers took note of the fact Western MMO gamers WERE playing a F2P game and SPENDING at about the same rate as their Asian counterparts from all indications...
    ^^^
    So once it was shown gamers in the Western market would accept a game with an F2P model (without too much screaming as there was some); and it seems developed the same type of spending patterns as Asian market players many more developers began to make the switch (where they thought it was feasible and would lead to way more profitability in the long run for a given title); and the F2P paradigm took hold in the West now to near the same degree it has in the East.

    The guys with the money always want MAXIMUM ROI and MAXIMUM PROFIT (even if the old Sub only paradigm would still net a decent profit).
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    F2P has ALWAYS generated MORE money/profit than the Subscription paradigm hands down<--- That's always been the case from when F2P first appeared in the Asian MMO market.

    I find this VERY hard to believe for one simple reason: the two biggest MMOs, WoW and FF14, still use the traditional sub + expansion model with a limited cash shop (and WoW gives it's cash stuff away for free to 6-month subs) while also releasing far FAR more content over time than any F2P game ever does. If WoW would be more profitable as a F2P game then Activision would have forced that on them a LONG time ago.

    This however is dependant on the size of the playerbase, if player numbers get too low then subs alone can't sustain a game and it's at this point where I would expect F2P to become more profitable as the whales help make up the lower sub revenue associated with a smaller playerbase. I've been around since STOs beta, the game was absolute tribble at launch which undoubtedly caused a MASSIVE loss of players in the early days which wasn't helped at all by the almost non-existent addition of new content prior to the F2P switch. The game really needed another year or two of development before launch, but after Perpetual failed to do anything for years it's understandable that CBS didn't want to wait any longer.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    This however is dependant on the size of the playerbase,

    And that really is the key. You cited WoW and a few others as an example, but at this point they are the outliers and are probably only able to remain subscription based due to the size of their playerbase.

    Most MMOs have faced declining subscribers and were basically "forced" to switch to F2P to stay alive. And most of those found they wound up making more money afterwards due to gambling mechanics. Also, once going free there is usually a decent playerbase increase (because the barrier to entry is gone) and those new people are willing to make 'normal' purchases even if they don't play the casino game.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,701 Arc User
    szerontzur wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    szerontzur wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Or do events and get a FREE ship. 3 regular event ships a year, every year, plus meta events for 1+ ships a year.

    Oh...so I just need to do a event and get my favorite ship, the D7 for free? And then the next event I can get the Discovery D7...then after that the Kelvin too?

    Thanks...I didn't know I could get any ship I want for free by just doing a event!

    I didn't say "any ship" but actually you CAN get a free D7 from the meta-event. In previous years we've been given free C-Store tokens for any regular (not Mudds or Legendary) C-Store ship.

    You claimed "This game is so predatory these days it isn't even funny" which is of course an opinion you're entitled to. It just doesn't seem like a reasonable opinion to me given how much free stuff we're given, much more than is needed to play all endgame content.

    Do you know why people play STO? So they can live out their Star Trek fantasies...and do you know what the devs to? Grow more and more predatory towards those fantasies. Do you think a player started playing STO so he could fly a Risian sciecne vessel or Fekihri carrier?

    No they play STO because they want to command the legendary ships they see on the screens! But as time goes on the devs are more and more predatory with those ships...be it costly legendary packs or gamble boxes with such abysmal pull rates they make gacha games look generous...basically if you see something on screen for more than a few minutes, from now on they're going to gouge you.

    Crossfield: (Discovery) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    Inquiry: (Mass produced ship Riker commanded) promo
    Connie: (Same with the D7) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    La Sirena: Promo
    Dhailkhina: Lock box
    Janeway: (Voyager J) Promo

    Discovery/Picard are supposed to bring in new players? Gonna have a hard time retaining them when you're so damn greedy and predatory and they find out they need to spend hundreds of dollars to get the ship they dream of commanding

    I feel the need to play devil's advocate here. While Picard has been milked exclusively, Discovery does have a better track record. There are a lot of 23c Federation and Klingon ships available in the C-Store that appeared in the show. Obviously, they didn't have a 'starring role' like the Promo/Lockbox ships, but they did appear in the show in atleast a supporting role(Europa/Nimitz, Sech, etc.). We even got the Vulcan "Solkar"(T'pau) as a free Event Ship.

    In list form, for comparative analysis:
    Nimitz(Europa): C-Store
    Shepard(Gagarin): C-Store
    Cardenas(Buran): C-Store
    Magee(Shran): C-Store
    Hernandez(Somerville): C-Store
    Hoover(Edison): C-Store
    Qugh: C-Store
    Qoj: C-Store
    Sech: C-Store
    Batlh: C-Store
    Chargh: C-Store

    NCIA-93(S31 Intel SciDes): Lockbox
    Na'Qjej: Lockbox
    Sarcophagus: Lockbox
    Ba'ul Sentry: Lockbox
    Terran Styx: Lockbox

    Nimrod(S31 BC): Promo
    D7(MWFDC): Promo
    Janeway(Voyager-J): Promo

    T'pau: Event

    Walker(Shenzhou): 3 versions - Starter Bundle C-Store, Lobi, Legendary C-Store
    DSC Constitution: 3 versions - Promo(MWFDC), Lockbox(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(TOFDC)
    Crossfield(Discovery): 3 versions - Lockbox(Spearhead), Promo(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(Glenn)
    Engle(Earhart): 2 versions - C-Store, Lockbox(Mirror)
    M'Chla: 2 versions - C-store, Event(Refit)


    C-Store(Permanent): 15
    C-Store(Limited): 2
    Lobi: 1
    Lockbox: 8
    Promo: 5
    Event: 2

    There are (currently) more permanent DSC C-Store ships in the game than there are Lobi, Lockbox, and Promo ships, combined. That said, I am a little concerned about the trend set from the Janeway Class for Season 3(it was a footnote ship, at best, in the show; The Nimitz class got more attention than it did.), but I guess time will tell.

    I said legendary ships, none of the c-store ships are legendary...they were all ships seen a couple times and that was it. The Buran was the closest thing and even then the Cardenas class was seen but a couple times on screen?

    Every single Discovery ship that was seen on screen more than a few times (except for 1...the BoP) is either lock box or promo...every ship we've gotten from Picard has been lock box or promo

    Discovery, Enterprise, and the Section 31 ships are the only Starfleet ships from Discovery we saw more than a 2/3 times...all gamble

    Once again I ask you...do you think most people want to command a BoP or the legendary D7 or Sarcophagus?

    Do you think people want to command a Engle or Magee...or do they want to captain the experimental Crossfield or legendary Constitution class?

    No, typically people want to command the legendary ships...why you think people spent years and years asking for a T5/6 Constitution?

    This is certainly starting to veer a bit off-topic, but.. I'm not buying the paradigm you're selling. Not saying it's wrong or bad; just that I don't agree(, respectfully).

    Most of those ships C-Store ships had more screen time and (and actually did more with the time they were given) than the Inquiry class. Most of the Lockbox ships are Antagonist ships - about half of which belong to non-playable factions(that includes mirror terrans). Most of the Promo ships are Hero/Villain ships.

    Granted, I confess I've never been interested in 'hero worship/emulation'(my stance has always been: Why not try to become your own hero instead of imitating someone else?). I find the Constitution, Crossfield and even Galaxy class ships ugly and over-engineered; my favorite federation ship is still the Akira(had a soft spot for the Miranda before then). I kind of feel the same way about the D7(too 'standard issue'/uninteresting) and the Sarco(regard it more as an ancient flying temple/graveyard than a proper space ship for interspecies 'interactions').

    I also confess I tend to groan when I see ships like the Inquiry and Janeway in a Promo box. Not because I want them, but because I feel they are entirely too underdeveloped(in the context of the Star Trek multiverse) to belong there. Book's ship? Sure; The Viridian? Sure(much to my chagrin); ANY of the Federation/Ni'var 32c ships? No way. STO has already established that the era a ship comes from is completely irrelevant(we have ships ranging from 22c to 31c in the C-Store already).

    You're comparing Discovery to Picard...the Inquiry was literally the only Starfleet vessel in Picard...so it's the only Starfleet Hero ship.

    But lets face it...every ship that has been shown in Picard is either lock bock, promo, or legendary...which fits my point exactly. Every one of them is expensive to obtain and the T'liss is another example of a desirable ship that is packed with a lot of unneeded fluff to raise the price. As the cheapest even on sale it's just barely under a 100 dollars.

    So once again as I said, every hero ship from Discovery and Picard cost a 100+ dollars to obtain, and people typically want to fly the hero ships, because they want to envision themselves as the heroes they enjoy to watch.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,107 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    szerontzur wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    szerontzur wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    Or do events and get a FREE ship. 3 regular event ships a year, every year, plus meta events for 1+ ships a year.

    Oh...so I just need to do a event and get my favorite ship, the D7 for free? And then the next event I can get the Discovery D7...then after that the Kelvin too?

    Thanks...I didn't know I could get any ship I want for free by just doing a event!

    I didn't say "any ship" but actually you CAN get a free D7 from the meta-event. In previous years we've been given free C-Store tokens for any regular (not Mudds or Legendary) C-Store ship.

    You claimed "This game is so predatory these days it isn't even funny" which is of course an opinion you're entitled to. It just doesn't seem like a reasonable opinion to me given how much free stuff we're given, much more than is needed to play all endgame content.

    Do you know why people play STO? So they can live out their Star Trek fantasies...and do you know what the devs to? Grow more and more predatory towards those fantasies. Do you think a player started playing STO so he could fly a Risian sciecne vessel or Fekihri carrier?

    No they play STO because they want to command the legendary ships they see on the screens! But as time goes on the devs are more and more predatory with those ships...be it costly legendary packs or gamble boxes with such abysmal pull rates they make gacha games look generous...basically if you see something on screen for more than a few minutes, from now on they're going to gouge you.

    Crossfield: (Discovery) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    Inquiry: (Mass produced ship Riker commanded) promo
    Connie: (Same with the D7) Lock box, promo, and legendary
    La Sirena: Promo
    Dhailkhina: Lock box
    Janeway: (Voyager J) Promo

    Discovery/Picard are supposed to bring in new players? Gonna have a hard time retaining them when you're so damn greedy and predatory and they find out they need to spend hundreds of dollars to get the ship they dream of commanding

    I feel the need to play devil's advocate here. While Picard has been milked exclusively, Discovery does have a better track record. There are a lot of 23c Federation and Klingon ships available in the C-Store that appeared in the show. Obviously, they didn't have a 'starring role' like the Promo/Lockbox ships, but they did appear in the show in atleast a supporting role(Europa/Nimitz, Sech, etc.). We even got the Vulcan "Solkar"(T'pau) as a free Event Ship.

    In list form, for comparative analysis:
    Nimitz(Europa): C-Store
    Shepard(Gagarin): C-Store
    Cardenas(Buran): C-Store
    Magee(Shran): C-Store
    Hernandez(Somerville): C-Store
    Hoover(Edison): C-Store
    Qugh: C-Store
    Qoj: C-Store
    Sech: C-Store
    Batlh: C-Store
    Chargh: C-Store

    NCIA-93(S31 Intel SciDes): Lockbox
    Na'Qjej: Lockbox
    Sarcophagus: Lockbox
    Ba'ul Sentry: Lockbox
    Terran Styx: Lockbox

    Nimrod(S31 BC): Promo
    D7(MWFDC): Promo
    Janeway(Voyager-J): Promo

    T'pau: Event

    Walker(Shenzhou): 3 versions - Starter Bundle C-Store, Lobi, Legendary C-Store
    DSC Constitution: 3 versions - Promo(MWFDC), Lockbox(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(TOFDC)
    Crossfield(Discovery): 3 versions - Lockbox(Spearhead), Promo(Mirror), Legendary Limited C-Store(Glenn)
    Engle(Earhart): 2 versions - C-Store, Lockbox(Mirror)
    M'Chla: 2 versions - C-store, Event(Refit)


    C-Store(Permanent): 15
    C-Store(Limited): 2
    Lobi: 1
    Lockbox: 8
    Promo: 5
    Event: 2

    There are (currently) more permanent DSC C-Store ships in the game than there are Lobi, Lockbox, and Promo ships, combined. That said, I am a little concerned about the trend set from the Janeway Class for Season 3(it was a footnote ship, at best, in the show; The Nimitz class got more attention than it did.), but I guess time will tell.

    I said legendary ships, none of the c-store ships are legendary...they were all ships seen a couple times and that was it. The Buran was the closest thing and even then the Cardenas class was seen but a couple times on screen?

    Every single Discovery ship that was seen on screen more than a few times (except for 1...the BoP) is either lock box or promo...every ship we've gotten from Picard has been lock box or promo

    Discovery, Enterprise, and the Section 31 ships are the only Starfleet ships from Discovery we saw more than a 2/3 times...all gamble

    Once again I ask you...do you think most people want to command a BoP or the legendary D7 or Sarcophagus?

    Do you think people want to command a Engle or Magee...or do they want to captain the experimental Crossfield or legendary Constitution class?

    No, typically people want to command the legendary ships...why you think people spent years and years asking for a T5/6 Constitution?

    This is certainly starting to veer a bit off-topic, but.. I'm not buying the paradigm you're selling. Not saying it's wrong or bad; just that I don't agree(, respectfully).

    Most of those ships C-Store ships had more screen time and (and actually did more with the time they were given) than the Inquiry class. Most of the Lockbox ships are Antagonist ships - about half of which belong to non-playable factions(that includes mirror terrans). Most of the Promo ships are Hero/Villain ships.

    Granted, I confess I've never been interested in 'hero worship/emulation'(my stance has always been: Why not try to become your own hero instead of imitating someone else?). I find the Constitution, Crossfield and even Galaxy class ships ugly and over-engineered; my favorite federation ship is still the Akira(had a soft spot for the Miranda before then). I kind of feel the same way about the D7(too 'standard issue'/uninteresting) and the Sarco(regard it more as an ancient flying temple/graveyard than a proper space ship for interspecies 'interactions').

    I also confess I tend to groan when I see ships like the Inquiry and Janeway in a Promo box. Not because I want them, but because I feel they are entirely too underdeveloped(in the context of the Star Trek multiverse) to belong there. Book's ship? Sure; The Viridian? Sure(much to my chagrin); ANY of the Federation/Ni'var 32c ships? No way. STO has already established that the era a ship comes from is completely irrelevant(we have ships ranging from 22c to 31c in the C-Store already).

    You're comparing Discovery to Picard...the Inquiry was literally the only Starfleet vessel in Picard...so it's the only Starfleet Hero ship.

    But lets face it...every ship that has been shown in Picard is either lock bock, promo, or legendary...which fits my point exactly. Every one of them is expensive to obtain and the T'liss is another example of a desirable ship that is packed with a lot of unneeded fluff to raise the price. As the cheapest even on sale it's just barely under a 100 dollars.

    So once again as I said, every hero ship from Discovery and Picard cost a 100+ dollars to obtain, and people typically want to fly the hero ships, because they want to envision themselves as the heroes they enjoy to watch.

    gotta give ya +1 for this.
    meh

  • salazarrazesalazarraze Member Posts: 3,789 Arc User
    WoW makes something like 2 billion dollars per year and is thoroughly entrenched in it's position in the market. Even if you could show that a F2P model theoretically could generate more revenue for WoW, nobody would ever make the insane decision to try and convert WoW over to a F2P system and risk that 2 billion dollar cash cow in the process. What works for WoW doesn't necessarily work for STO and vice versa.
    When you see "TRIBBLE" in my posts, it's because I manually typed "TRIBBLE" and censored myself.
  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,704 Arc User
    Or do events and get a FREE ship. 3 regular event ships a year, every year, plus meta events for 1+ ships a year.
    Not to mention out of the 650 playable ships in the game.... 530+ of them aren't lockbox or R&D ships. So the vast majority of ships in the game aren't gambling based at all.

    While I believe that is true about the majority of (older) ships in game, dang that's a lot of ships. I wonder what the numbers are for released ships the last couple or a few years for direct-buy Store ships versus "gamble" ships. Wouldn't those numbers show a more recent & accurate trending direction of Cryptic's?
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,107 Arc User
    lets also be honest and decide if "all" ships means just that, or are we talking scalable T6 and end game ships vs T1-T5 (yes T5s are still viable and out there).

    i am thinking people are discussing without a solid base from where to draw counters from. to me, this is about the T6s and end game vs others. anything below T5, while i like many of them, are just not, and should not, be included in this overall discussion about this. (yes, my opinion)
    meh

  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,035 Arc User
    I personally would be more than happy to sign up for a new subscription on top of the lifetime sub I already have if it meant the end of gambleboxes. I HATE the entire F2P concept, and honestly I can't help but feel a little resentment towards those who refuse to pay a measly $15 a month to subscribe to an online game they enjoy that actively gets new content added on a regular basis.

    The problem with this is players are getting new content without having to pay a sub fee right now, so all of a sudden charging them to play the game they could access for free is going to drive people away. As a Liftime sub owner myself, I personally would not pay any additional monthly fee. I specifically paid for the LTS when it was offered so I would not have to and have paid for many things in the store of the years to help contribute.
    And that really is the key. You cited WoW and a few others as an example, but at this point they are the outliers and are probably only able to remain subscription based due to the size of their playerbase.

    Most MMOs have faced declining subscribers and were basically "forced" to switch to F2P to stay alive. And most of those found they wound up making more money afterwards due to gambling mechanics. Also, once going free there is usually a decent playerbase increase (because the barrier to entry is gone) and those new people are willing to make 'normal' purchases even if they don't play the casino game.

    @thegrandnagus1 is spot on here. I think it very, very foolish to assume that STO has a large enough player base willing to pay $15 a month to keep the game afloat. This is just personal opinion, I believe the game would go into maintenance mode.

    Here is an article somewhat on topic. It is more about mobile games, however the gist of the concerns raised by some publishers does apply to MMOs as well.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    all of a sudden charging them to play the game they could access for free is going to drive people away.
    Oh I fully understand that there's no going back, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
    valoreah wrote: »
    I think it very, very foolish to assume that STO has a large enough player base
    I'm aware of this also, which as I said IMO is largely due to the tribble state the game was in eleven years ago at launch.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,704 Arc User
    I still think Cryptic choosing to eliminate the regular subscription option was a bad idea compounded by how Cryptic dumped on those regular subscribers by eliminating with little to no notice & not upping those previous regular subscribers by 1 tier. Instead of Cryptic sending a message that they appreciate the support from regular subscribers with upping 1 tier Cryptic gave a big middle finger. I don't think bringing back a regular type subscription alone would solve anything. Besides, there's no need for another subscription option since, "STO is doing great & better than ever before yadda yadda yadda,".
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    I still think Cryptic choosing to eliminate the regular subscription option was a bad idea
    That was probably more of a PWE directive than a Cryptic idea. For STO it's not that big of a deal, the monthly sub didn't really provide enough value after they went F2P. For Champions though it's kind of infuriating, I now can't play ANY of my characters unless I either switch them to one of the basic power sets, buy freeform slots for each one, or buy a lifetime sub (which isn't worth it since I only dabble in Champions once every 3 years or so). Luckily City of Heroes has private servers now so I can just play that when I'm in the Superhero mood, and except for the freeform power set CoH was a LOT better than Champions anyway.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,704 Arc User
    I still think Cryptic choosing to eliminate the regular subscription option was a bad idea
    That was probably more of a PWE directive than a Cryptic idea. For STO it's not that big of a deal, the monthly sub didn't really provide enough value after they went F2P. For Champions though it's kind of infuriating, I now can't play ANY of my characters unless I either switch them to one of the basic power sets, buy freeform slots for each one, or buy a lifetime sub (which isn't worth it since I only dabble in Champions once every 3 years or so). Luckily City of Heroes has private servers now so I can just play that when I'm in the Superhero mood, and except for the freeform power set CoH was a LOT better than Champions anyway.

    I've never experimented with their other games, gave it some thought every once in awhile just never done it, if I remember correctly with the timing I figured Cryptic, or as you stated PWE possibly, did it for that Elite Starter Pack back in the day since that was new. One of those take away this to sell you this type of tactics.

    That would really suck with what you described about your Champions account & character(s). That is unfortunate.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,828 Arc User
    I'm still a few days shy of my next tier of veterancy reward from when they went away with subs. I'd like a option to get that which isn't a 200€ lifetime sub.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,108 Arc User
    Interestingly, they have apparently decided to show the actual odds for their new game's packs:

    https://support.arcgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/1260803817970-What-are-the-Booster-Pack-odds-in-Magic-Legends-

    Not sure why the made that choice, but transparency is good.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,704 Arc User
    Interestingly, they have apparently decided to show the actual odds for their new game's packs:

    https://support.arcgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/1260803817970-What-are-the-Booster-Pack-odds-in-Magic-Legends-

    Not sure why the made that choice, but transparency is good.

    Transparency is good indeed if accurate, granted they're still self-regulated so just got to trust their intent. What I find interesting is with this Magic: Legends it's supposedly incorporating a gambling mechanic I & others have been hoping Cryptic would do in STO for years. I'm not sure what it's officially titled, but it's a sort of progressive increased odds of winning each time you lose sort of thing so eventually one would win sooner or later pending the increments increased.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,534 Arc User
    This however is dependant on the size of the playerbase,

    And that really is the key. You cited WoW and a few others as an example, but at this point they are the outliers and are probably only able to remain subscription based due to the size of their playerbase.

    Most MMOs have faced declining subscribers and were basically "forced" to switch to F2P to stay alive. And most of those found they wound up making more money afterwards due to gambling mechanics. Also, once going free there is usually a decent playerbase increase (because the barrier to entry is gone) and those new people are willing to make 'normal' purchases even if they don't play the casino game.

    Agreed.

    Like it or not Star Trek is catering to something of a 'niche' market. Most (not all) players who indulge in STO are people who've either followed Trek all their lives or, recently at least, have seen one of the new series via streaming. Granted this isn't exhaustive and I have a few people on my friendlist who seem to know little or nothing about Trek.
    STO, and to some degree SWTOR, are bound by 'rules' stipulated by the licence holders.

    However, the same doesn't apply to the two games references a few times in the above posts; WoW and FFXIV - are, obviously, fantasy genre games, a genre which seems to generally command a larger following than Sci-Fi. Both games have huge, and in the case of FFXIV, growing fanbases and free reign to produce whatever content/stories they wish since they're not tied to a TV or movie franchise.
    I have no idea how accurate it is, but FFXIV claimed, in July 2020, to have reached the 20 million player mark. Again, I'd question how accurate this really is since statistics like that don't necessarily count active players and likely count those accounts that were created to play their free trial but didn't necessarily yield a 'active player' (i.e a new subscription) at the end of the trial.

    I will say though - they're definitely doing something right. I can only comment from my experience, but quite a few of my old STO friends have gone over to FFXIV entirely and don't seem to look back, with a few other friends jumping between STO and FFXIV, but generally preferring FFXIV due to the quality of the game itself and the massive amount of content on offer. And one thing seems certain; regardless of how accurate the above-mentioned stats might be, it does seem as if FFXIV's playerbase is large enough that they don't need to change from their subscription model.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,701 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    This however is dependant on the size of the playerbase,

    And that really is the key. You cited WoW and a few others as an example, but at this point they are the outliers and are probably only able to remain subscription based due to the size of their playerbase.

    Most MMOs have faced declining subscribers and were basically "forced" to switch to F2P to stay alive. And most of those found they wound up making more money afterwards due to gambling mechanics. Also, once going free there is usually a decent playerbase increase (because the barrier to entry is gone) and those new people are willing to make 'normal' purchases even if they don't play the casino game.

    Agreed.

    Like it or not Star Trek is catering to something of a 'niche' market. Most (not all) players who indulge in STO are people who've either followed Trek all their lives or, recently at least, have seen one of the new series via streaming. Granted this isn't exhaustive and I have a few people on my friendlist who seem to know little or nothing about Trek.
    STO, and to some degree SWTOR, are bound by 'rules' stipulated by the licence holders.

    However, the same doesn't apply to the two games references a few times in the above posts; WoW and FFXIV - are, obviously, fantasy genre games, a genre which seems to generally command a larger following than Sci-Fi. Both games have huge, and in the case of FFXIV, growing fanbases and free reign to produce whatever content/stories they wish since they're not tied to a TV or movie franchise.
    I have no idea how accurate it is, but FFXIV claimed, in July 2020, to have reached the 20 million player mark. Again, I'd question how accurate this really is since statistics like that don't necessarily count active players and likely count those accounts that were created to play their free trial but didn't necessarily yield a 'active player' (i.e a new subscription) at the end of the trial.

    I will say though - they're definitely doing something right. I can only comment from my experience, but quite a few of my old STO friends have gone over to FFXIV entirely and don't seem to look back, with a few other friends jumping between STO and FFXIV, but generally preferring FFXIV due to the quality of the game itself and the massive amount of content on offer. And one thing seems certain; regardless of how accurate the above-mentioned stats might be, it does seem as if FFXIV's playerbase is large enough that they don't need to change from their subscription model.

    That is something I've been a critic of with cryptic....because I've been playing mmos for over 10 years. Most of their "content" involves gambling or other things that require purchase. They have all but eliminated new content to the game. They've stopped making new fleet holdings and reputations...no more lobi ships because they don't really make money off them...we very rarely see a new TFO...get a handful of new story missions each year

    They literally put almost no effort into the things that make a mmo successful and focus all entirely on milking the players, well eventually that well is going to dry up if they don't put more than the bare minimum effort into content. Starting to understand why all my favorite people behind STO have left for other things.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,481 Arc User
    Also note that SWTOR introduced the changing odds concept for their loot crates a few years ago. The more you opened their better the chance of obtaining a Purple item.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
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