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Nomad and Vger reprogrammed from the same race?

navar#3536 navar Member Posts: 198 Arc User
The similarities between Vger and Nomad are quite frankly hard to ignore. Is it possible they were both found by the same race and given intelligence through them?
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    Possible. Nomad collided with and combined with an alien probe called Tan Ru, if that one was sent out by V'ger's benefactors the answer would be yes, but it seems a bit unlikely since the Voyager probe fell into a wormhole and ended up across the galaxy somewhere that took centuries to get back from even at the speed it traveled at, and NOMAD ran into Tan Ru a lot closer to home.

    It is probably more likely that Tan Ru was sent out by Gary Seven's hosts or some other mostly reclusive civilization or an ancient one like the Kalandan who had territory not too far away. It could have even been an ancient Orion one before their civilization fell into its current dark ages.
  • tom61stotom61sto Member Posts: 3,635 Arc User
    STO seems to go with the V'Ger-finding machine civilization being foundational to the Borg, with the Borg Unimatrix looking like the cloud-less V'Ger seen in the non-Theatrical version of the movie. Nomad's mission wouldn't fit the Borg profile, though it'd make more sense that a collision between a Borg probe and another probe would result in a new entity than most other factions, with it likely being set to assimilate.
  • therealblackkaostherealblackkaos Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    There’s elements like these of Star Trek lore that should be expanded more in the game. Between the TOS & TNG there’s elements of races that have been overlooked but would be a bit of fan service as well as a way to connect them to current events. There’s a lot of “one-off” episodes that would fit in in my opinion especially with all the timeline mess that’s been created in game.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Tan Ru's program was to locate suitable soil samples, sterilize them, and analyze them for suitability for colonization. When it collided with Nomad, which was programmed to seek out signs of intelligent life, the software was corrupted to "seek out intelligent life, sterilize imperfect life".

    Voyager 6 had originally been designed to simply gather all information possible and transmit it toward Earth. V'ger was programmed to "learn all that is learnable", and then "unite" with its creator. It's not Tan-Ru-style sterilization and analysis at all. Rather, it would seem to me that the civilization that reprogrammed V'ger was completely unrelated to the expansionist regime that designed Tan Ru. (And neither one, quite frankly, seems much like the Borg at all.)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 1,260 Arc User
    no way was Voyager found by the Borg. if it had been, at least a probe ship would have been sent to see if the civilization was worth assimilating.
    u7acy6aymfw7.gif
    We Need BERETS in the tailor
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...

    It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • navar#3536 navar Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    I never gave the "Brog created V'ger" thing any credibility. I played the game that started that whole silly thing and on that game you could watch a short story....it was mildly entertaining, but never did I take anything from that game seriously. The idea that the Borg programmed V'ger is absurd.
  • navar#3536 navar Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    navar#3536 wrote: »
    I never gave the "Brog created V'ger" thing any credibility. I played the game that started that whole silly thing and on that game you could watch a short story....it was mildly entertaining, but never did I take anything from that game seriously. The idea that the Borg programmed V'ger is absurd.
    You have it backwards. The theory is that V'ger created the Borg, not that the Borg created V'ger.

    Gene Roddenberry himself, even halfingly joked, that the Machine Planet Spock saw when he was in V'ger was the Borg homeworld.

    Did I get it backwards? I'll have to hunt down the PC game (Star Trek Legends is what the name of it was IIRC) and watch the video again. Either way, the whole idea just seemed absurd to me and I never gave it much thought passed entertainment.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    leemwatson wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...

    It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    The small spherical structure containing the NASA Voyager was from V'ger's builders, the rest is stuff that V'ger analyzed to death with those fuzzy torpedo/sensors and recreated for itself. It is quite possible that it ran across a Borg Unimatrix and assimilated it to beef itself up after getting damaged by some of the civilizations it came across (the Borg were probably the most damaging in fact since they would be wild to get the kind of tech V'ger had even early in its journey, and V'ger would probably have picked the scariest thing it could think of to keep others from trying).
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    mneme0 wrote: »

    That novel is part of the "Shatnerverse" timeline, not Prime, so STO could not use any of it without signing a deal with the novel's publisher first, something they are not particularly likely to do considering the problems they have had already with that kind of thing.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    @navar#3536
    It was Star Trek Legacy.
    That novel is part of the "Shatnerverse" timeline, not Prime, so STO could not use any of it without signing a deal with the novel's publisher first, something they are not particularly likely to do considering the problems they have had already with that kind of thing.

    The only thing that could be used is the link between V'Ger and the Borg. Luckily that was something that was also used in Star Trek Legacy, and thus fair game as long as STO takes the idea in a different direction than the book and Legacy.

    Although honestly the Legacy explanation was pretty well thought out. Right now the only thing that hints at V'Ger and the Borg in STO are the Unimatrix ships looking like smaller versions of V'Ger.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    Which could just as well be simply a nod towards the design which is pretty cool but had otherwise no real use in STO. They could probably do a V'Ger arc that is TMP heavy content, though. It wouldn't be the first time they retconned ship visuals if they just change how unimatrix ships look.

    > @leemwatson said:
    > It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    V'Ger didn't assimilate anything, it literally saved and catalouged things, turned them into information for the creator. This is neither what the Borg did (singular) nor what the new Borg (plural) did.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Which could just as well be simply a nod towards the design which is pretty cool but had otherwise no real use in STO. They could probably do a V'Ger arc that is TMP heavy content, though. It wouldn't be the first time they retconned ship visuals if they just change how unimatrix ships look.

    > @leemwatson said:
    > It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    V'Ger didn't assimilate anything, it literally saved and catalouged things, turned them into information for the creator. This is neither what the Borg did (singular) nor what the new Borg (plural) did.

    It DID assimilate things. It learned and adapted by taking in information AND the absorption of matter, making it part of itself, and using it to 'better' itself, which is also exactly what the Borg do. Simply put, by starting a new game and learning it's systems, you are assimilating that information. Assimilation isn't a simple definition, it has multiple definitions, and I won't patronize you by listing them all.

    To put my 'canon' point of view across from just what we've seen on-screen, Voyager fell into a singularity, say for instance, the Barzan wormhole, which we know did have exits in the Delta Quadrant, where the Borg of that Era, with limited understanding of Humanity, captured it, and assumed 'The Creator' was a machine, souped up V'Ger and set it back on a course to Earth. Given that we know the Borg at the time had 'assimilation' technology less advanced than TNG Borg, it makes sense that V'Ger assimilated in the way it did. Whilst no-one can guess how long it had travelled, it had to have been at least 100 years, given it would have taken the USS Voyager (I'm sure the ship's name is a CBS/Paramount clue and can't really be coincidence :lol:) 75 years to travel back, with a more advanced drive than what was available to the Borg at the time, which we know already had been around for over a thousand years. And before someone says 'but machine planet'.....just because we never saw the Borg homeworld in TNG and Voyager, they had to come from a planet, and TMP shows that planet, but it made sense that the Borg build their Unimatrix eventually in space, simply because it was tactically sound to do so, making it much harder to find than a planet.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »

    It DID assimilate things. It learned and adapted by taking in information AND the absorption of matter, making it part of itself, and using it to 'better' itself, which is also exactly what the Borg do. Simply put, by starting a new game and learning it's systems, you are assimilating that information. Assimilation isn't a simple definition, it has multiple definitions, and I won't patronize you by listing them all.

    (...)

    Where do you get it "absorbed matter" to "better itself"? This was not stated, as far as I remember. If I misremember I shall stand corrected, but the concept was that the Voyager probe landed on a "machine planet" who build the big ship around it to allow it to complete it's mission, which was to learn everything and report back to the creator. The things it "destroyed" it turned into data, into holographic 3D images. It did not alter it's function based on things it learned, aside from the one, tiny little side effect of becoming sentient. The only time it remotely assimilated something in the sense the Borg are shown to do is when Decker fused with it to create a new life form made of machine logic and human emotion.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The only time it remotely assimilated something in the sense the Borg are shown to do is when Decker fused with it to create a new life form made of machine logic and human emotion.​​

    I don't know... in a way Ilia may be counted as "assimilated".
    Although Ilia was killed by the V'ger probe, V'ger created another probe that was an artificial near-duplicate of her to collect information and act as a liaison between V'ger and the "carbon units" that "infested" the Enterprise. The probe mentioned that the Ilia unit was "no longer functioning". The duplicated Ilia probe was similar to Ilia down to the molecular structure, as a medical exam later revealed. The probe included both her memories and personality, though both suppressed by V'ger's programming.

    If she was killed... how does the duplicate not only have a similar molecular structure, but have her memories and personality, but suppressed? That kinda sounds assimilated to me. And I think in some of the Borg declarations they say straight up "Existence as you know it is over" or something along those lines.

    Borg Assimilation alters the body and suppresses personality while the memories are maintained in the Collective. For all intents and purposes, the process "kills" the victim as well. The individual ceases to exist, becoming yet another nameless Drone controlled by the Collective.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    angrytarg wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »

    It DID assimilate things. It learned and adapted by taking in information AND the absorption of matter, making it part of itself, and using it to 'better' itself, which is also exactly what the Borg do. Simply put, by starting a new game and learning it's systems, you are assimilating that information. Assimilation isn't a simple definition, it has multiple definitions, and I won't patronize you by listing them all.

    (...)

    Where do you get it "absorbed matter" to "better itself"? This was not stated, as far as I remember. If I misremember I shall stand corrected, but the concept was that the Voyager probe landed on a "machine planet" who build the big ship around it to allow it to complete it's mission, which was to learn everything and report back to the creator. The things it "destroyed" it turned into data, into holographic 3D images. It did not alter it's function based on things it learned, aside from the one, tiny little side effect of becoming sentient. The only time it remotely assimilated something in the sense the Borg are shown to do is when Decker fused with it to create a new life form made of machine logic and human emotion.​​

    It assimiliated/absorbed/converted Ilya, as already mentioned, it assimilated/converted/absorbed 3 Klingon K'Tinga's and an entire Outpost.......ONSCREEN! It learned from what it assimilated, that was it's purpose....to assimilate information and then report it back to the 'Creator'. The Borg took it's core programming quite literally and gave it more tools to do so. It learned compassion from Ilya, who's knowledge it assimilated to create the probe, quite literally altering it's core program once it did, otherwise, it would have wiped out Earth without a second thought. Ilya, literally was V'ger's 'downfall'.

    Assimilation, simply put....again, is the learning and/or absorption of something....please don't make me start posting the actual definitions. :lol:
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...

    It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    There is literally no finite proof that V'ger is connected to the Borg and the only two sources that point to it are from a non-canon book and a non-canon game. The Borg didn't destroy things to assimilate, they took them over forcefully...

    Daniel Stahl was a big fan of V'ger and even he wouldn't confirm the Unimatrix vessels were a direct connection to V'ger and it could all just be a coincidence because he was a fan.

    You're treating hints and non-canon sources as fact
  • navar#3536 navar Member Posts: 198 Arc User
    lianthelia wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...

    It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    There is literally no finite proof that V'ger is connected to the Borg and the only two sources that point to it are from a non-canon book and a non-canon game. The Borg didn't destroy things to assimilate, they took them over forcefully...

    Daniel Stahl was a big fan of V'ger and even he wouldn't confirm the Unimatrix vessels were a direct connection to V'ger and it could all just be a coincidence because he was a fan.

    You're treating hints and non-canon sources as fact

    This is why I felt it would be a great discussion, since there are no facts to support this subject, but rather a fun topic that people would toss theories on.

    Sadly, like any other thread, it is slowly turning in to a tug-of-war between people.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    navar#3536 wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...

    It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    There is literally no finite proof that V'ger is connected to the Borg and the only two sources that point to it are from a non-canon book and a non-canon game. The Borg didn't destroy things to assimilate, they took them over forcefully...

    Daniel Stahl was a big fan of V'ger and even he wouldn't confirm the Unimatrix vessels were a direct connection to V'ger and it could all just be a coincidence because he was a fan.

    You're treating hints and non-canon sources as fact

    This is why I felt it would be a great discussion, since there are no facts to support this subject, but rather a fun topic that people would toss theories on.

    Sadly, like any other thread, it is slowly turning in to a tug-of-war between people.

    I mean it's okay if someone thinks it is a cool theory, I'm not a fan of it but to each is own...when you start presenting a unproven theory as fact is the problem, which is what lee was doing.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User
    navar#3536 wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    The V'Ger - Borg connection never made any sense and can only be explained by people very fundamentally misunderstanding how the Borg originally worked or what it was supposed to be. Yes, Borg (singular) was later reimagined and changed beyond recognition to be easier on the audience, but even today's weird Borg are nothing like V'Ger and it's modus operandi. I am absolutely sure that during the course of Picard V'Ger and Borg will be connected because I have absolutely zero faith in the originality or skill of Kurtznan helmed writing staff but at this point, no, no connection.

    Edit: please excuse all the typos. Hooves and phones...

    Edit2: Linking the two is done by the kind of people that think Voth, Gorn and Saurians HAVE to be the same because they all look reptillic...

    It's not that people 'misunderstand', you are wrong in that, as there is zero canon evidence about the Borg prior (Enterprise excluded); it's that some folk refuse to accept that the Borg 'created' V'Ger, and that the Unimatrix ship shown in the motion picture is a precursor to the Unimatrix we now see in game.....The model for V'Ger was created decades BEFORE STO, not the other way round, and the full ship can be seen other editions of ST:TMP as well as stills. CBS wouldn't have approved of Cryptic using a design so similar otherwise. V'Ger assimilated ships etc throughout it's journey and it's evident it grew physically as it did so.

    There is literally no finite proof that V'ger is connected to the Borg and the only two sources that point to it are from a non-canon book and a non-canon game. The Borg didn't destroy things to assimilate, they took them over forcefully...

    Daniel Stahl was a big fan of V'ger and even he wouldn't confirm the Unimatrix vessels were a direct connection to V'ger and it could all just be a coincidence because he was a fan.

    You're treating hints and non-canon sources as fact

    This is why I felt it would be a great discussion, since there are no facts to support this subject, but rather a fun topic that people would toss theories on.

    Sadly, like any other thread, it is slowly turning in to a tug-of-war between people.

    It is a great discussion, something I love about this game, but I'll reiterate, I used onscreen evidence to back my case. The proof isn't absolute, but cause there's no definitive assertion on screen, however, it's hard to make a case against, when we know there hasn't been any other advanced machine race onscreen. The lack of evidence isn't proof that something else does or does not exists. STO is 'soft' canon, and it presents the best link between the two, and the similarity between the the V'Ger vessel and the STO Unimatrix is one that warrants further investigation, because the answer to that question is the ultimate proof, as we know CBS has alot of say of what can and cannot be allowed within the game, right down to the story AND certain ships. If one Dev says CBS gave ANY input on the Unimatrix design, then that is almost absolute proof of who modified V'Ger.

    The weight of onscreen evidence, not non-canon evidence, backs the Borg theory. To my knowledge, at least two books I've read and a game, not STO, directly use the Borg as V'Ger's benefactors.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    > @leemwatson said:
    > It assimiliated/absorbed/converted Ilya, as already mentioned, it assimilated/converted/absorbed 3 Klingon K'Tinga's and an entire Outpost.......ONSCREEN! It learned from what it assimilated, that was it's purpose....to assimilate information and then report it back to the 'Creator'. The Borg took it's core programming quite literally and gave it more tools to do so. It learned compassion from Ilya, who's knowledge it assimilated to create the probe, quite literally altering it's core program once it did, otherwise, it would have wiped out Earth without a second thought. Ilya, literally was V'ger's 'downfall'.
    >
    > Assimilation, simply put....again, is the learning and/or absorption of something....please don't make me start posting the actual definitions. :lol:

    It turned all these into data and saved them as 3D holograns. The Ilya probe was a synthetic recreation of her body and memory engrans, like the Synths did with Picard. This is a process very different from what the Borg do. They integrate their victims forcefully - that's assimilation in the sense the Borg use the term.

    I think you said it best in one of your other posts: you (and others) draw the conclusion because the Borg are one of the only 'machine people' we see, and solely through superficial similarities a connection is drawn. But Borg aren't even machine people, they are 'carbon units' tgat augmented themselves with technology. V'Ger is a sentient machine. It's a completely different animal 😉
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,297 Arc User
    edited March 2021
    reyan01 wrote: »
    because there were, retrospective, similarities. It seems that some feel a need to establish links through similarities even if there is evidence to the contrary.

    This.

    Trelane being a Q is still more believable than V'Ger being a Borg-progenitor somehow (the Vaadwaur even pointed out the Borg almost failed when they emerged). Just because they are machinepeople doesn't mean they have to be behind everything that goes into this direction.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    I just like to pretend the machine race Voyager ran into were the Cybertronians...even though it isn't, it still gives me a chuckle to think that, especially since the Voyager probe actually has a link to Transformers.​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    > @shadowfang240 said:
    > I just like to pretend the machine race Voyager ran into were the Cybertronians...even though it isn't, it still gives me a chuckle to think that, especially since the Voyager probe actually has a link to Transformers.​​

    Unless Voyager went back in time though, Cybertron probably wasn't in a state that would have allowed this to happen. Or Cybertron in Trek prime was ruled by benevolent mirror Quintessons and never saw uprising and civil war😁
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Unless Voyager went back in time though, Cybertron probably wasn't in a state that would have allowed this to happen. Or Cybertron in Trek prime was ruled by benevolent mirror Quintessons and never saw uprising and civil war😁

    They frequently use a black hole or wormhole to throw Voyager 6 back in time and across the galaxy before its transformation into V'Ger.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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