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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And if you're JUST saying the removal of faction restrictions will help increase the sales of non Fed ships, I completely agree (like I said in my post).

    But if anyone is saying Fed ships won't always be the MAIN development priority, for the simple fact that Fed "stuff" sells better with Trek fans that non Fed "stuff, I'll have to disagree.

    I wasn't talking about sales, or trying to lean into a debate over what sells better. Its harder to justify designing a ship for a faction that has a smaller population in the game, especially if you're wanting to make it a solo release. Yes we naturally got more Fed because Star Trek is Fed Centric, and yes Fed sells more because of higher population. But now that the "Walls" have come down on ships, they can more easily design a Klingon ship without having to bundle it with a Fed equivelent or "miss out on sales because of population".

    Lets say the Devs wanted to make the D5 Battlecruiser for Klingons. Before they'd most likely have to also design an equivelent Fed ship or just pass it up because it wouldn't be as attractive due to smaller KDF pop. Now... they could design an equivelent Fed ship, probably the Ent era Intrepid, or they could choose to do a solo release because its available to all. And honestly Fed has had plenty of solo releases in the past, like the Jupiter and Hestia.
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    edited March 1
    No self respecting Klingon would be caught in command of a weak federation starship and no self respecting Starfleet officer would command a KDF battle cruiser / BoP / battleship.
    Worf: *slowly walks with murderous Klingon anger*
    Kirk: "Well, double dumbass on you!"
    Janeway: "Wait, why am I used as an example? I never acted like a angry Klingon or tried to violate the Prime Directive!"
    #TASforSTO
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,529 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And if you're JUST saying the removal of faction restrictions will help increase the sales of non Fed ships, I completely agree (like I said in my post).

    But if anyone is saying Fed ships won't always be the MAIN development priority, for the simple fact that Fed "stuff" sells better with Trek fans that non Fed "stuff, I'll have to disagree.

    I wasn't talking about sales, or trying to lean into a debate over what sells better. Its harder to justify designing a ship for a faction that has a smaller population in the game, especially if you're wanting to make it a solo release. Yes we naturally got more Fed because Star Trek is Fed Centric, and yes Fed sells more because of higher population. But now that the "Walls" have come down on ships, they can more easily design a Klingon ship without having to bundle it with a Fed equivelent or "miss out on sales because of population".

    Lets say the Devs wanted to make the D5 Battlecruiser for Klingons. Before they'd most likely have to also design an equivelent Fed ship or just pass it up because it wouldn't be as attractive due to smaller KDF pop. Now... they could design an equivelent Fed ship, probably the Ent era Intrepid, or they could choose to do a solo release because its available to all. And honestly Fed has had plenty of solo releases in the past, like the Jupiter and Hestia.

    It's kind of strange, it almost feels like we're talking about different things, but at the end of the day the driving factor behind the design still all comes back to sales.

    I'll use your example of them not wanting to do a solo KDF release because in the past it was limited to the smaller KDF population. Well, even with faction restrictions gone...it's still a klingon ship. And the portion of the customer base that wants to buy a klingon ship is always going to be much smaller than the portion of the customer base that wants to buy a starfleet ship.

    Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the point you're trying to make, but it seems like you're saying they will be much more willing to make non Fed ships now. And I really don't agree, simply because they will still want to spend the majority of the resources making what they know the majority of their customers want. Will it slightly increase the amount of non-Fed ships they release? Probably. But I honestly don't believe it will be anywhere near Fed levels, ever.

    The Fed ships will pretty much always be the main priority for simple business reasons. And considering STO has a smallish team size, that just doesn't leave a lot of room for any major increase in non-Fed designs IMO.

    But if I'm completing missing your point, feel free to clarify.

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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    edited March 1
    i dont see the design and release of non fed ships as being any different, let alone more, as a whole.

    this option has basically allowed them to buy time for whatever will be coming in the future.

    as stated by the TGN, a kdf ship still has the smaller faction based to which it would be of interest vs fed.

    ive seen maybe two to three fed ship in qosnos space since the drop of faction lock. all the drop did was create a storm for ship traits and consoles. which is now also creating less faction specific gameplay.

    meh

  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,845 Arc User
    I get that sales are the main point of any business, but it seems to me that they need to draw a line somewhere. I mean, I'll bet people would buy Batman costumes, or Star Destroyer carriers with Tie Fighters (or what have you), no matter how inappropriate it might be for them to appear in a Star Trek game.

    The question is, where is the line?

    For some of us, we wanted the game to have some internal consistency... to at least pretend to be creating a consistent, logical Star Trek universe. For me, that really started to disappear when they took away the exploration clusters, but the omnipresence of non-canon ships or inappropriate (ie. ENEMY ships) in the hands of the players has really crippled my feeling of being in a Star Trek game.

    I think it's important to remember that many people are here ONLY because it's Star Trek (or at least purports to be). If the game strays too far from the things that define Star Trek, there is a risk they will lose their audience.

    I suspect they have already lost much of their audience. The fact that both my Federation and Klingon fleets (which were founded very early in the game's existence) are populated by ONE player (me), when they had many more than that originally, is telling. My friends are all Star Trek fans. None of them still play this game. I feel the question needs to be asked, WHY they, and other like them, stopped playing.

    Truly, I sometimes wonder why I haven't stopped.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • eladonwarps#6040 eladonwarps Member Posts: 194 Arc User
    With respect to the OP, my Captains serve the Alliance. That means they fly whatever ship gets the job done, because Alliances share their resources. Lately that's been Alliance joint project ships, but it can just as much mean my Romulan flies an Odyssey Dreadnaught, or my Andorian in a Bird of Prey, or my Mo'Kai Klingon in her latest ship, a Gagarin Battlecruiser.

    Your preferences and interpretations may vary, but I'm happy with this development.
    Call me "El," she/her only. I love my wife and I don't care who knows it!
  • joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 327 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    If anything... making ships cross faction means more freedom to make ships because they are no longer forced to justify one over another based on faction metrics.

    In other words, all of the KDF, Romulan, and Jem'Hadar players who want ships for their factions can suck it. Which is basically how it's been from the get-go. We get it, Feds are the focus, but this is a rather blatant way of saying it.
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  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    No self respecting Klingon would be caught in command of a weak federation starship and no self respecting Starfleet officer would command a KDF battle cruiser / BoP / battleship.
    Worf: *slowly walks with murderous Klingon anger*
    Kirk: "Well, double dumbass on you!"
    Janeway: "Wait, why am I used as an example? I never acted like a angry Klingon or tried to violate the Prime Directive!"

    OP forgot the exchange programs. Riker served on a BoP and could of taken command if circumstances dictated.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,076 Arc User
    edited March 1
    With respect to the OP, my Captains serve the Alliance. That means they fly whatever ship gets the job done, because Alliances share their resources. Lately that's been Alliance joint project ships, but it can just as much mean my Romulan flies an Odyssey Dreadnaught, or my Andorian in a Bird of Prey, or my Mo'Kai Klingon in her latest ship, a Gagarin Battlecruiser.

    Your preferences and interpretations may vary, but I'm happy with this development.

    You know what, me too. For similar reasons. Thank you for this post! :)

    I so cant wait to finally get my starfleet kling that d7. <3
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  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    I hate the idea of a feddybear flying a KDF ship, I REALLY hate the idea.

    I hate the op's patronising gatekeeping even more however.

    There are examples in canon where a Fed could command a KDF ship and vice versa. Exchange programs, prizes of war, outright piracy etc.
  • scottie270182#2421 scottie270182 Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    We need only look to The Search for Spock to know that Klingon commanders have a great respect for the Federation's finest starships. Had it not been for Kirk outthinking him, Kruge would have gladly transferred his flag to the Enterprise, as despite her age, the Klingons saw right through the Federation dogma and recognised the Constitution-class as the battlecruiser she was capable of being.

    That being said, I personally only fly ships from other factions when I want their traits. Then again, I'm also the guy who uses the green piezo-photon torpedoes on his 24th century Klingon ships, so my preference is for my characters to reflect the canon of their era/allegiance as closely as possible.
    "..to boldly go where no one has gone before."
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    We need only look to The Search for Spock to know that Klingon commanders have a great respect for the Federation's finest starships. Had it not been for Kirk outthinking him, Kruge would have gladly transferred his flag to the Enterprise, as despite her age, the Klingons saw right through the Federation dogma and recognised the Constitution-class as the battlecruiser she was capable of being.

    That being said, I personally only fly ships from other factions when I want their traits. Then again, I'm also the guy who uses the green piezo-photon torpedoes on his 24th century Klingon ships, so my preference is for my characters to reflect the canon of their era/allegiance as closely as possible.

    I'm a bit like that. My main has a bit of a fleet I swap around but each alt is built around one ship.

    All my main's ships are either Klingon or Alliance and the Klingons are disruptor build with the Khitomer and Temer being AP builds.

    My Disco alt will be going with a Qugh and Disco sensor-linked disruptors when he hits 65 and my Rom flies a legendary T'Liss torp build complete with the beach ball of death.

    If I ever get around to finishing them my Dommie alt will be similar and my feddybear Klingon will be flying a Khitomer because I just can not stomach a feddybear boat.

    Kruge got a connie (albeit briefly) and Kirk got a shiny BoP. Nice to see the legendary Kirk appreciating superior Klingon design philosophy.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    joshmaul wrote: »
    In other words, all of the KDF, Romulan, and Jem'Hadar players who want ships for their factions can suck it. Which is basically how it's been from the get-go. We get it, Feds are the focus, but this is a rather blatant way of saying it.

    Uh... what? That's not what's being said at all. They are free to make MORE Klingon ships, not less.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    joshmaul wrote: »
    In other words, all of the KDF, Romulan, and Jem'Hadar players who want ships for their factions can suck it. Which is basically how it's been from the get-go. We get it, Feds are the focus, but this is a rather blatant way of saying it.

    Uh... what? That's not what's being said at all. They are free to make MORE Klingon ships, not less.

    again, how though? the player base for klink may have taken an uptick due to the recruit event, but im betting the ratio is still on par with how it was prior. if you look at the cross benefits simply by doing the event, many will for those alone and drop it after.

    so how is allowing cross faction flying making more room for them to make more when it was near impossible for them to make them prior?
    meh

  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 4,529 Arc User
    edited March 2
    rattler2 wrote: »
    joshmaul wrote: »
    In other words, all of the KDF, Romulan, and Jem'Hadar players who want ships for their factions can suck it. Which is basically how it's been from the get-go. We get it, Feds are the focus, but this is a rather blatant way of saying it.

    Uh... what? That's not what's being said at all. They are free to make MORE Klingon ships, not less.

    again, how though? the player base for klink may have taken an uptick due to the recruit event, but im betting the ratio is still on par with how it was prior. if you look at the cross benefits simply by doing the event, many will for those alone and drop it after.

    so how is allowing cross faction flying making more room for them to make more when it was near impossible for them to make them prior?

    I do agree with those that say there will be SOME increase. Because of CFF there will be some Feds buying KDF ships, for various reasons. But CFF still don't change the basic economic fact that most Trek fans want to buy Starfleet stuff, meaning there will always be a bigger market demand for actual Fed ships than non Fed ships, meaning they will still be the main development priority. But yes, there will be a slight increase.

    So look at it this way: some increase is still better than no increase at all, right?
    Post edited by thegrandnagus1 on

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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,476 Arc User
    No self respecting Klingon would be caught in command of a weak federation starship and no self respecting Starfleet officer would command a KDF battle cruiser / BoP / battleship. I hate the idea of commanding each others ships that does not fit the style of the Fed or KDF. It is troubling to see, as if this one thing will cause more captains to join for this cross faction abomination. I will pass on this, I just hate to see it come to this.

    Now this Janeway ship. You know they used to tell a story of how certain ships came to be or their being brought back from a distant region, sad.

    It's the final nail in the coffin to the KDF, nothing more

    This is so they finally have the excuse to really never have to make another Klingon ship again, and once this farce of "Year of the Klingon" is over they will be treated just like the Romulans/Jem Hadar...like they're virtually invisible
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    There are examples in canon where a Fed could command a KDF ship and vice versa. Exchange programs, prizes of war, outright piracy etc.

    This right here is what I support, I love it when people stick to canon, I know I do even if it doesn't give me DPS advantages.
  • kellmg96#5851 kellmg96 Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    No self respecting Klingon would be caught in command of a weak federation starship and no self respecting Starfleet officer would command a KDF battle cruiser / BoP / battleship. I hate the idea of commanding each others ships that does not fit the style of the Fed or KDF. It is troubling to see, as if this one thing will cause more captains to join for this cross faction abomination. I will pass on this, I just hate to see it come to this.

    Now this Janeway ship. You know they used to tell a story of how certain ships came to be or their being brought back from a distant region, sad.

    I agree to an extent Feds shouldn't be driving KDF ships unless they're Fed Klingons, I feel like Fed Klingons should get a pass since they're still technically Klingons.

    Go up to Worf and tell him he's only technically Klingon. Lemme know, hows your face?
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    There are examples in canon where a Fed could command a KDF ship and vice versa. Exchange programs, prizes of war, outright piracy etc.

    not wanting to start a word war, but where is this presented? and if so, exchange programs dont last the full career of any officer for either faction.
    prizes and piracy are different and i still dont recall a KDF captain keeping the ship, let alone a fed cpt either. so if you mean orion or another subfaction, id like to know where these are presented and used.

    again, not to start a word war, but i am genuinely curious since i cant recall anything to support your position.
    meh

  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    So look at it this way: some increase is still better than no increase at all, right?

    is two pennies more than 1, sure.

    im open to give them the room they need to prove that such a move provides "MORE" (as per rattler) kdf compared to what they provide or have done recently. and im not talking about alliance ships with a klink flare.

    meh

  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 1,996 Arc User
    one or two of my feds will fly either a Kor or a Malem, because.. submarine
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,476 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yeah, I understand what you're saying. And if you're JUST saying the removal of faction restrictions will help increase the sales of non Fed ships, I completely agree (like I said in my post).

    But if anyone is saying Fed ships won't always be the MAIN development priority, for the simple fact that Fed "stuff" sells better with Trek fans that non Fed "stuff, I'll have to disagree.

    I wasn't talking about sales, or trying to lean into a debate over what sells better. Its harder to justify designing a ship for a faction that has a smaller population in the game, especially if you're wanting to make it a solo release. Yes we naturally got more Fed because Star Trek is Fed Centric, and yes Fed sells more because of higher population. But now that the "Walls" have come down on ships, they can more easily design a Klingon ship without having to bundle it with a Fed equivelent or "miss out on sales because of population".

    Lets say the Devs wanted to make the D5 Battlecruiser for Klingons. Before they'd most likely have to also design an equivelent Fed ship or just pass it up because it wouldn't be as attractive due to smaller KDF pop. Now... they could design an equivelent Fed ship, probably the Ent era Intrepid, or they could choose to do a solo release because its available to all. And honestly Fed has had plenty of solo releases in the past, like the Jupiter and Hestia.

    It's kind of strange, it almost feels like we're talking about different things, but at the end of the day the driving factor behind the design still all comes back to sales.

    I'll use your example of them not wanting to do a solo KDF release because in the past it was limited to the smaller KDF population. Well, even with faction restrictions gone...it's still a klingon ship. And the portion of the customer base that wants to buy a klingon ship is always going to be much smaller than the portion of the customer base that wants to buy a starfleet ship.

    Maybe I'm just misunderstanding the point you're trying to make, but it seems like you're saying they will be much more willing to make non Fed ships now. And I really don't agree, simply because they will still want to spend the majority of the resources making what they know the majority of their customers want. Will it slightly increase the amount of non-Fed ships they release? Probably. But I honestly don't believe it will be anywhere near Fed levels, ever.

    The Fed ships will pretty much always be the main priority for simple business reasons. And considering STO has a smallish team size, that just doesn't leave a lot of room for any major increase in non-Fed designs IMO.

    But if I'm completing missing your point, feel free to clarify.

    Honestly it's likely the opposite, they will be less willing to make new ships because they have the blanket excuse of "You want a new ship KDF players, well you're in luck! That shiny new (Insert name here) class is waiting for you!"

    Klingons lacking in Science? Well the Janeway class is waiting! Want a mean and tough new battlecruiser? Look no farther than the Inquiry, and so on and so forth with what ever classes the California and other 32nd century ships will be.

    There is literally no incentive for them to really ever make another Klingon ship, since they started giving us Alliance ships that got rid of the only guaranteed non Starfleet ships that would be put on the c store (For those unfamiliar, after the release of the anniversary ship the devs would make a 3 ship set for each faction and their console set linked to the anniversary ship console)
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • kellmg96#5851 kellmg96 Member Posts: 627 Arc User
    There are examples in canon where a Fed could command a KDF ship and vice versa. Exchange programs, prizes of war, outright piracy etc.

    not wanting to start a word war, but where is this presented? and if so, exchange programs dont last the full career of any officer for either faction.
    prizes and piracy are different and i still dont recall a KDF captain keeping the ship, let alone a fed cpt either. so if you mean orion or another subfaction, id like to know where these are presented and used.

    again, not to start a word war, but i am genuinely curious since i cant recall anything to support your position.

    redemption, if Duras dumbass had decloaked and fired on the Enterprise, Picard gets hit, Kurn assumes command.
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  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,845 Arc User
    There are examples in canon where a Fed could command a KDF ship and vice versa. Exchange programs, prizes of war, outright piracy etc.

    not wanting to start a word war, but where is this presented? and if so, exchange programs dont last the full career of any officer for either faction.
    prizes and piracy are different and i still dont recall a KDF captain keeping the ship, let alone a fed cpt either. so if you mean orion or another subfaction, id like to know where these are presented and used.

    again, not to start a word war, but i am genuinely curious since i cant recall anything to support your position.

    redemption, if Duras dumbass had decloaked and fired on the Enterprise, Picard gets hit, Kurn assumes command.

    Such instances are not the same as commanding the ship the way we do in the game. It's more akin to being put in command of a ship temporarily, as we get in some missions in the game (eg. commanding the Enterprise-C or Obelisk carrier).
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    There are examples in canon where a Fed could command a KDF ship and vice versa. Exchange programs, prizes of war, outright piracy etc.

    not wanting to start a word war, but where is this presented? and if so, exchange programs dont last the full career of any officer for either faction.
    prizes and piracy are different and i still dont recall a KDF captain keeping the ship, let alone a fed cpt either. so if you mean orion or another subfaction, id like to know where these are presented and used.

    again, not to start a word war, but i am genuinely curious since i cant recall anything to support your position.

    redemption, if Duras dumbass had decloaked and fired on the Enterprise, Picard gets hit, Kurn assumes command.

    Such instances are not the same as commanding the ship the way we do in the game. It's more akin to being put in command of a ship temporarily, as we get in some missions in the game (eg. commanding the Enterprise-C or Obelisk carrier).

    thus was my point of my post. which, maybe i didnt state clearly enough. so i thank you for offering a different view to it.
    meh

  • vorwodavorwoda Member Posts: 603 Arc User
    We need only look to The Search for Spock to know that Klingon commanders have a great respect for the Federation's finest starships. Had it not been for Kirk outthinking him, Kruge would have gladly transferred his flag to the Enterprise, as despite her age, the Klingons saw right through the Federation dogma and recognised the Constitution-class as the battlecruiser she was capable of being.

    Kruge got a connie (albeit briefly) and Kirk got a shiny BoP. Nice to see the legendary Kirk appreciating superior Klingon design philosophy.

    To be fair, Kirk got his "shiny BoP" not because he preferred it and bought one at the ship selection window. He grabbed it because the planet he was on was blowing up and it was the only means of escape. Nobody willingly commands a lifeboat until he runs his ocean liner onto an iceberg!

    However, in the original script (before it was dumbed down for the general public), Kruge stole his shiny BoP from the Romulans!

    And Kirk did sneak aboard a Romulan D7 in "The Enterprise Incident" to steal a cloaking device. Basically the same thing as us grabbing another faction's ship just to get a console. While the Romulan Commander there did say the Enterprise would make quite a prize. I'm sure she meant to dissect and study, reverse engineer and display. Not fly herself.

    So there's precedent for grabbing other faction's ships and consoles. In edge cases, not as standard operating procedure. We've had missions like that ourselves, occasionally; and as one shot missions here and there it's fine. But as a game standard, it's pretty immersion breaking.

    Just my two credits.
  • angarus1angarus1 Member Posts: 671 Arc User
    While most of my characters are happy to stay in their preferred faction ships, I do have some that use the other factions' ships for the heck of it. :)
  • razorin#3988 razorin Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    For me I can not wait for the janeway class to be released because it is not only good for torpedo builds but I also like how the design pays amage to the original but still having the future feel to it.

    for the other issue of cross commanding ships. I really dont care, I wont use it so it wont affect me as much. but I respect where you guys are coming from and I respect your opinion

    Good day everyone
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,664 Arc User
    edited March 2
    No self respecting Klingon would be caught in command of a weak federation starship and no self respecting Starfleet officer would command a KDF battle cruiser / BoP / battleship. I hate the idea of commanding each others ships that does not fit the style of the Fed or KDF. It is troubling to see, as if this one thing will cause more captains to join for this cross faction abomination. I will pass on this, I just hate to see it come to this.

    Now this Janeway ship. You know they used to tell a story of how certain ships came to be or their being brought back from a distant region, sad.

    No self respecting Klingon PLAYER would be caught in command of a weak federation starship and THERE ARE no self respecting Starfleet PLAYERS , they're all self centered opportunists who use the game mechanics and dev 'gifts' to win at ANY cost.
    Romulans are traitors by nature, so it's no surprise they work both sides of the fence.
    <SARCASM OFF>
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  • millefune#8468 millefune Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    According to Dax, the Klingon male pictured was the most honorable Klingon ever. Pretty sure it's okay for Klingons to pilot Starfleet ships and keep their honor intact.

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