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Janeway Class (First 32nd Century Ship for STO) Incoming

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  • szimszim Member Posts: 2,462 Arc User
    To fit thematically, its phasers and abilities should be incredibly weak. Since an entire fleet (!) of those couldn't make as much as a scratch on a 23rd cenutury vessel.

    Not my cup of tea.. at all. But to each their own.
  • davideightdavideight Member Posts: 427 Arc User
    Nog class next pls. cause i dont like that, its to classic to be a new design.
  • jcswwjcsww Member Posts: 6,215 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Interesting... Can I get the uniforms for my Space Barbie addiction yet? lol

    I am surprised we haven't seen the uniforms already. I was hoping that they were just holding on to them for a freebee for the anniversary but we still sadly don't have them.

    More ships in the game is a good thing. I would really like to see a 32nd century Prometheus but secretly, I want the giant space garden. :D
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 2,920 Arc User
    I like the ship, just for the concept of it.. i have no problem about the detached naceles.. in the 70s people complained that the warp drive is impossible, that the amount of energy needed is too much, and that dilithium crystalas does not exist, the concept is ridiculus!.. and well, it's still not possible to do, so, detached nacelles and stuff in Star Trek is still in the realm of fantasy as the warp drive. The problem that i think Discovery have (i like the series thou) is that they are not backing up the tech they use with science, at least explain a little how everything works, that's what old trekkers like me need to feel the tech more plausible.
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  • gizmox64gizmox64 Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    UGLY IMO of course, I hate the space-magic holding the nacelles in place. Being from 32nd century I expect my Shields to be impenetrable & my Weapons to simply melt anything they target right? Also I better be chased by every villain in Start Trek in random encounters as they try to get their hands on my future ship, especially the BORG! Of course none of that will be true & it will just be another ship visual to play with.

    Of course we could have a big thread just on Time Travel to the Future as there is no Future since we are "riding" the front of the time line as the present, so time hasn't got to a future state yet. Of course this is Star Trek & we need story & drama.

    Lastly I'd like more Holographic options, like able to apply the Skin of any of my Owned ships to my Current ship, if even temporarily via Latinum Exchange Holographic devices...
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    I showed a picture of the Janeway Class and asked my 40/50 something dad this morning if he would fly his character in one, he said it looks pretty cool.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    payback99 wrote: »
    In other words, it works exactly the same way the chainmail bikini works: fantasy nonsense. The difference here is you can look good wearing a chainmail bikini.
    You can never look good in a chainmail bikini.

    And no, it isn't fantasy nonsense. Tell me, which has more wind resistance? A 500 foot tall wall, or literally nothing? The answer is literally nothing.

    Having nothing offers the ultimate in terms of eliminating resistances to movement/turn speed, because there is nothing to be resisted against in the first place.

    Do you realize the insane power requirements that magical floating parts that don't just shoot off from each other would require? There's no negating of friction that would be so necessary that using a couple fleets worth of power that would make a magic floating parts ship needed. Also you don't experience wind resistance in space but you do experience friction.

    It's the 32nd century, at least 700 years after STO, I'm sure they've made advances in power generation to make the energy requirements trivial. A thousand years ago we fought wars with swords, now we have nuclear missiles. We can't even begin to guess what technology could be like over a thousand years from NOW, so the more fantastical they make it the better.

    Yes we have nuclear missiles but still settle disputes or engage in wars with swords, see all the machete attacks/beheadings in the last decade. And for all the psychotic whining about scary black rifles in the US, they still kill far less people than knives or the unarmed human body every year.

    We still use steam to generate most electricity, whether the heat comes from coal or nuclear fission.

    The wheel is still the premiere shape for movement, and putting them directly against a surface is still the most efficient way to do it.

    With what advances we have made, there are still fundamental truths, like if you don't need magnetic levitation why are you bothering with it? There's too much that can go wrong so Keep It Simple Stupid. Fancy tech solutions only work as long as the power does, and every redundant system can fail too.
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    payback99 wrote: »
    In other words, it works exactly the same way the chainmail bikini works: fantasy nonsense. The difference here is you can look good wearing a chainmail bikini.
    You can never look good in a chainmail bikini.

    And no, it isn't fantasy nonsense. Tell me, which has more wind resistance? A 500 foot tall wall, or literally nothing? The answer is literally nothing.

    Having nothing offers the ultimate in terms of eliminating resistances to movement/turn speed, because there is nothing to be resisted against in the first place.

    Do you realize the insane power requirements that magical floating parts that don't just shoot off from each other would require? There's no negating of friction that would be so necessary that using a couple fleets worth of power that would make a magic floating parts ship needed. Also you don't experience wind resistance in space but you do experience friction.

    It's the 32nd century, at least 700 years after STO, I'm sure they've made advances in power generation to make the energy requirements trivial. A thousand years ago we fought wars with swords, now we have nuclear missiles. We can't even begin to guess what technology could be like over a thousand years from NOW, so the more fantastical they make it the better.

    Yes we have nuclear missiles but still settle disputes or engage in wars with swords, see all the machete attacks/beheadings in the last decade. And for all the psychotic whining about scary black rifles in the US, they still kill far less people than knives or the unarmed human body every year.

    We still use steam to generate most electricity, whether the heat comes from coal or nuclear fission.

    The wheel is still the premiere shape for movement, and putting them directly against a surface is still the most efficient way to do it.

    With what advances we have made, there are still fundamental truths, like if you don't need magnetic levitation why are you bothering with it? There's too much that can go wrong so Keep It Simple Stupid. Fancy tech solutions only work as long as the power does, and every redundant system can fail too.
    I agree for the most part, however swords happen to follow the rule of cool, personally I rather have a sword than a gun, I have the accuracy of a stormtrooper even in video games and with a sword you don't have to worry about things like running out of ammo or getting head shots.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,377 Arc User
    Pretty indifferent about it myself. The detached nacelles thing doesn't really bother me and whilst I don't think its the most aesthetically pleasing design I don't, personally, feel its the worst either (although that's another discussion entirely).

    Still, regardless of how I feel about this ship, my days of spending money on STO are behind me; whilst I know it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, I refuse to give STO any more of my money.


  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    A power failure does not mean the nacelles will detach. The show’s last episode clearly states that they’re held with magnetic fields. Just like the magnetic fields in reality that can be used to levitate objects. While that requires supercooled temperatures with real world technology, it’s a reasonable stretch that better tech allows them to do it at warmer temperatures. No power would be required to hold the nacelles in place, they would be held by stationary magnetic field lines and remain correctly oriented to the ship unless something disrupted the magnetic field. Like the explosion Owosekun triggers to do exactly that.

    DSC physics is actually reasonably plausible.

    *ELECTRO* magnets can do that, but the operative part of that is ELECTRO, as in powered and thus non-persistent. Power turns off, field goes poof, and nacelles detach.

    just to be devils advocate...

    there should, (one would think that is) be an additional power unit in the nacelle. thus having an effective back up in case of main power loss on the ship. :)

    still not a design for me, even though i find the nacelles interesting.

    meh

  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,230 Arc User
    edited February 27
    ladymyajha wrote: »
    On further introspective I kind of see how they want you to build this ship, and it'll be almost mandatory.

    They want you to use those fancy 32nd century phasers it comes with, meaning they want you in a drain build, to drain your enemies shield and weapon energy, giving you a boost in hull damage, and damage mitigation from them doing less damage to you via less energy weapon energy.

    Further damage mitigation will come from lesser engineering hull heals (the universal will almost have to be another engineering slot) and then using the recharge boost from the phasers to boost your recharge times on said heals. So less burst healing, but more overall healing from just spamming the heals.

    Finally the Tac 3 spot is indeed supposed to be from Fire at Will III to further increase the phaser spam and recharge time.

    Still not a great design as you'll practically be forced into this build, but its not as horrible as I once thought. I'll upgrade it from WTF horrible to just really bad.

    Where does it say 32nd century phasers are drain-oriented?

    Disclaimer: None of this is about chasing some meta, but to understand how a ship is meant to be set up given its abilities and stats.

    All I see is they are boff CD reduction, and with a 4/2 layout without dual-cannon option & the need to face targets with many Sci abilities it makes sense to use dual beam banks alongside 1 torpedo, but to maximize CD reduction given only one omni of 32nd would exist (and be quite rare to gamble for) it would mean 5 beam banks 1 sci-based torp and broadsiding whenever possible with bfaw - this is also due to Command's only redeeming feature is Concentrate Firepower which only functions viably with a forward mounted torpedo.

    The only universal seat is Lt / Miracle Worker, and to make use of this feature it would make sense to use it for miracle worker-related abilities. Nanite Repair Payload is absolutely awful and misplaced in this game, sacrificing damage output (torpedo) for a heal that probably takes a while to reach the friendly target which by now is either dead or never needed heals in the first place. Reroute Shields to Hull Containment would make some sense to stack with cloaking "based on shield percent at activation" as shields drop anyways (the far future still hasn't reverse-engineered scimitar cloak) but the ability makes no sense anyways as dangerous burst damage is usually kinetic (torpedo) which shields mitigate greatly, so I don't see a purpose. Disables are equally misplaced or weak, but there's exotic damage abilities and weapon related boosts for miracle worker.

    All in all, the only point of this ship is to rely on auto-hull heals from sci-damage output, a hybrid energy/sci setup with one torp, and cloak ambush bonus damage since you get more hull to survive the shields dropping on cloak. Then, it's about being in a team with other command spec vessels to benefit from the AoE hull & energy damage boosters (inspirational abilities).

    With hull tanking, there's less need for shield power, which frees up subsystem power to weapons, and the sci ship masteries can still function when going on the defensive to bring shields up again.

    My opinion, it may not be terrible, but with sci ships and cruisers I actually enjoy shield tanking, and being forced out of that (worthless 1.1 shield mod) does lower my opinion of what sadly will be the only or one of very few nice looking 32c Disco ships.

    Also, this ship will do best on a Tac captain with Go Down Fighting since it can modulate all the hull damage to trigger it with the most power, but TAC/DPS is what STO is all about so catering to that is no surprise since a long time ago.
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  • revanindustriesrevanindustries Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    The 4/2 layout and LtC Tac also allows it to be a pretty good Torpedo delivery system.
  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
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  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,337 Arc User
    jcsww wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Interesting... Can I get the uniforms for my Space Barbie addiction yet? lol

    I am surprised we haven't seen the uniforms already. I was hoping that they were just holding on to them for a freebee for the anniversary but we still sadly don't have them.

    More ships in the game is a good thing. I would really like to see a 32nd century Prometheus but secretly, I want the giant space garden. :D

    "We already got one, you so-called K-ni-ghts!"
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  • captennik1captennik1 Member Posts: 15 Arc User
    I personally would like the Lieutenant Commander Science to be a Lieutenant Commander Universal, since this a promo ship and all it will give it the versatility it needs to be a very good ship and to better utilise the more tactical aspect of it's design !!!
  • paradox#7391 paradox Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    thetanine wrote: »
    jcsww wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Interesting... Can I get the uniforms for my Space Barbie addiction yet? lol

    I am surprised we haven't seen the uniforms already. I was hoping that they were just holding on to them for a freebee for the anniversary but we still sadly don't have them.

    More ships in the game is a good thing. I would really like to see a 32nd century Prometheus but secretly, I want the giant space garden. :D

    "We already got one, you so-called K-ni-ghts!"
    product-image-1285266148_180x.jpg?v=1587425499
    Star Trek JL Picard Uniform Startfleet

    Wrong picture we don't have those ones, we have the other Picard uniforms, also some people like Discovery season 3 fed uniforms, at least do your research before posting.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,338 Arc User
    This is beyond ridiculous.

    We have a ship that won't be in active service for 700 YEARS. This goes way beyond a ship that is rare. This is a ship that simply does not belong.

    Now... If Cryptic were to create a branch of the game set in the 32nd century that is isolated from the core game, in which our 32nd century character serves on the USS Janeway, and they treated it like an on-going series that gives us a reason to keep coming back to it, I would actually pay money to play that content.

    But hell... CBS doesn't care about Star Trek continuity... Why should Cryptic?

    Well, time travel solves everything. Its why we have 29th and 31st century ships in game, among others. Of course... time travel is banned where this thing comes from (though no one can stop it from happening, so who cares?)

    I don't like the inclusion of those ships either.

    We should have been given a choice of eras rather than just a mish mosh of everything just thrown together willy nilly with no meaning or purpose.

    Yes... "Time travel solves everything" It's one of the most done to death tropes in Star Trek. So far, Discovery is the first Trek show to not only strand the crew in a time period not of their own, but actually integrate them into that era with a clear implication that they are not going back. It works, because you can take an outdated ship, gut its systems and replace them with contemporary ones, refit the hull and upgrade offensive and defensive systems, thus making it viable for contemporary use.

    But we have a ship from 700 years in the future. This thing needs to have the stats of a Tier 100 ship. It should by its very nature outclass every ship in the game with the 29th and 31st century ships maybe standing a chance to hold their own in comparrison. And we won't just see one of these... They'll be popping up all over the place.

    By that logic of what the Janeway class should be, The 26th, 29th, and 31st century ships should be higher tiers as well, because they come from farther into the future. Yet they are about on par with 25th century ships and even earlier ships because STO is about making things fair on the level of how ships compete at the same level competitively.

    I was being sarcastic. But you cannot tell me that ships from CENTURIES into the future would not be equipped with offensive and defensive tech that would trounce pretty much anything. They would not be on par with 25th century ships.
    STO is turning into one huge joke.

    S3 of discovery could have and should have been a huge opportunity for Cryptic to go: We now have a Star Trek show set in the 32nd century. Let's create a branch of STO that we can use to explore the potential storytelling in that era.

    But no... We get a lockbox ship. Quick and easy money for yet more meaningless fluff.

    First off, I want to say that as always, you expect too much when it comes to the team for STO. As it stands, they have just enough people to provide content for an episode or two every few months.

    Whose fault is that? Not mine. They are sitting on one of the biggest, most beloved IPs in the WORLD. The people who set their budget have money rolling in from the fluff that we are too stupid to stop throwing our money at and start demanding real content for our money. PWE can affors to allocate enough funds to hire more developers to turn STO into more than a mediocre catch-all for gamble box ships that make no narrative sense for the setting.
    Yet, you want them to open up more sections of the game specifically for the purpose of exploring a new era. An era that, hardly has anything known about the rest of the galaxy beyond what Discovery has already shown from season 3. We don't even know the current status of the Klingons. I'm pretty sure that 32nd century is off the table for storytelling.

    We know what the state of the galaxy was like at the point Discovery entered the 32nd century. If the Voyager-J is a Janeway Class, then it means that there is a USS Janeway which was the first of that class. We do not know when it was commissioned. It may have been in service for a good 10 years before the events of DIS-S3. We also do not know how long the Voyager-J had been in service. But it doesn't matter. Let's assume that the Janeway Class has been around for at the very least 5 years. Set the 32nd century plotline five years before the events in DIS-S3. Make its sector space map limited to four sectors, but spread it out so that it is the size of the beta quadrant map. This will approximate the limited range of travel due to the Burn. Use a modified version of the endeavor system to facilitate mission objectives within the system, preferably ones that can be failed resulting in either a +1 or -1 applied to a meta score, which in turn could be used to trigger other missions. Keep all the endeavor-based missions for the 32nd century relevant to the known state of the galaxy. This will give us something to do even after the introduction story arc is completed. Timeline can be advanced by a year for each new story arc. That would give them 5 full story arcs to release over however long it takes them in real time before they hit the point where Discovery enters the era. The 6th arc would address the immediate ramifications of S3. The 7th arc would follow on the heels of the events of S4, whatever they end up being...

    I came up with this in the space of 20 minutes. What's Cryptic's excuse. It is their job to come up with content for the game. I'm just some random individual on a forum. What the hell are they spending all their budget on? Not world building, that's for sure.
    Agents of Yesterday was an opportunity for Cryptic to give STO an on-going 23rd century branch to the game. But no... Once the introduction is over it's a jump to the 25th century where we can continue with our character from the 23rd century doing the same junk our regular 25th century characters do...

    Agents of Yesterday was NEVER an opportunity for them to do an on-going branch to the game. The intent was for them to pay tribute for a few classic follow-up stories to classic episodes, introduce the Na'kuhl and bring the TOS Fed character into the 25th century, where the bulk of the story takes place. Hence why they didn't build the map any bigger than around the few sectors they did.

    And that is why it is a missed opportunity... They could have added to the TOS era map over time had they wanted to. They could have added more missions. They could have made the TOS era a game unto itself. But they didn't. They made it a point to include all that TOS-themed artwork, sound effects, and even a special shader that made it look like it was being viewed on an old CRT TV... All for a few levels of unique TOS-era content, and then it was off to the same old same old...
    Legacy of Romulus was an opportunity to give STO a branch in which we can enjoy a romulan storyline. But once the intro is done, we get to choose red or blue, and again continue to advance using content that our other characters already do]

    Every chance they have to give a unique experience within what starts out as a unique branch just gets rolled into the same mediocre BS...

    Wrong on Legacy of Romulus. They gave us a good number of episodes for the Romulans, even more so than what the Klingons get.

    After we choose an ally, we go through an arc where we discover that the Tal Shiar don't even trust their own people to give information, to infiltrating them to see what it is that they're up to. We then progress into the Nimbus arc where we not only kick out the Orions out of Nimbus but also the Tal Shiar and come face to face with the Elachi in person for the first time. From there, we deal with many attacks from the Elachi ending with an all out assault by them on New Romulus. Romulan Mystery is of course when we the original Romulan story and have them join up with the rest of the game from that point.

    My point is that once you make that choice between UFP and KDF, we stop being in a true romulan storyline, and ultimately just end up doing the same thing everyone else does, without even any alternative dialogue choices. There may have been a little more content, but that was the first origin story to be added to the game aside from 25c UFP/KDF. All other origin stories after that are, run the intro and bang, rolled into 25C era content that if it wasn't your first character, you've already done to death by now.

    Enough people had refused to move beyond the origin content that we just recently received the announcement that going forward it would be impossible for them to advnce unless they make the jump. Now why would this be an issue? To me it demonstrates a clear desire on the part of players to play a pure character set in that origin. Cryptic even acknowledged that in the very announcement that told them they cannot. If it were me calling the shots, I would look at it and say, "hey. Even though there's not much to do in these origin branches, people clearly like them enough to choose not to leave them. What can we do to add actual value to them?"

    Missed opportunities.
    But they aren't even bothering to give us an intro set in the 32nd century before throwing us back in time to the same mediocre stuff.

    Just a gamble box. One and done. Next...

    I bet we don't even get a ship interior with the Janeway class... Hell... I bet we don't even get a bridge.

    Not going to throw money at this. Launch a story arc set in the 32nd century, charge for it, and let this ship be part of it, and I will buy it. But the ship by itself in a gamble box... No.

    Like I said, we don't really have much more information on what to expect and since Season 4 continues on where Season 3 did, they probably want to let it simmer before they bring anything in from then. Just like they're being cautious about story elements from Picard. So no, we're not getting any story elements from Season 3 just yet.

    We're definitely going to not get a bridge. No 32nd century bridges have been shown thus far in the series, much less a complete interior.

    And because of that, Cryptic gets a pass on not exercising creative license?

    We have seen what 32nd century starfleet architecture looks like. That's a strting point. If they can get the 3D models for the ship, then they can get the models used for the virtual sets.

    If Cryptic is too small a team to give any focus to actual world building beyond just throw-away introductions that you never get to revisit, then they need to hire more people, or get the hell out of the way and let a larger, better equipped team to take over.

    Star Trek as a globally recognizable IP is to great for an MMO of such intentional mediocrity, owned by a company that can afford to do way better but refuses to...

    See I would buy a 32nd ventury origin story arc. I would buy additional 32nd century, Romulan, and TOS arcs. I will not buy ships. The former actually would give me more content to play. The latter just gives me a new skin to wear while doing the same old mediocre hamster wheel stuff over and over again...

    Maybe if they stood to actually make money off of playable content we would get more than one or two episodes over the course of several months.

    But no. New ship nobody asks for or doesn't make narrative sense slapped in a gamble box... Because they know they can easily get the magic number of per unit sales to keep PWE satisfied with profit reports. And this time, they have the actual 3D model from CBS which only needed its polycount scaled down to be viable in STO. So it isn't like the artist had to build the design from scratch. But they will make major bank off it because we cannot control our "gotta have it" urges enough to see it for the weaksauce it is and demandmeatier content for the money.

    This is MY opinion on the matter. Your opinion and that of others will differ. I only can own my own thoughts, not anyone else's.
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 5,836 Arc User
    With what advances we have made, there are still fundamental truths, like if you don't need magnetic levitation why are you bothering with it? There's too much that can go wrong so Keep It Simple Stupid. Fancy tech solutions only work as long as the power does, and every redundant system can fail too.

    I can see some legitimate reasons for detached nacelles and hulls (the Janeway doesn't appear to have a neck either). On Starfleet ships the most obvious weak points are the neck and the pylons, both of which have been exploited in an episode or movie. By eliminating those entirely you remove key vulnerabilities, sure the nacelles can still be targeted directly but they can't be physically torn off the ship like they were in Beyond, and without a neck the saucer can sustain catastrophic damage with little or no impact on the secondary hull. Another thing they could do but haven't (or at least haven't shown yet on the ships we've seen so far) is keep a set of backup nacelles docked with the secondary hull ready for deployment incase the primary nacelles are destroyed or need to be ejected for some reason (I suppose they might be able to use programmable matter to quickly build a new one instead). In the show they say it increases maneuverability but that particular explanation seems far fetched to me.
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  • pattonj324pattonj324 Member Posts: 22 Arc User
    I was on the fence about this design, however my obsession for all things "Intrepid Class" will have me throwing some money at Cryptic for a chance at the Janeway Class.

    I did find the nacelles pivoting upward was a bit unusual, since the Discovery's nacelles reattached when jumping to warp and using the D.A.S.H. Drive.
  • payback99payback99 Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    With what advances we have made, there are still fundamental truths, like if you don't need magnetic levitation why are you bothering with it? There's too much that can go wrong so Keep It Simple Stupid. Fancy tech solutions only work as long as the power does, and every redundant system can fail too.

    I can see some legitimate reasons for detached nacelles and hulls (the Janeway doesn't appear to have a neck either). On Starfleet ships the most obvious weak points are the neck and the pylons, both of which have been exploited in an episode or movie. By eliminating those entirely you remove key vulnerabilities, sure the nacelles can still be targeted directly but they can't be physically torn off the ship like they were in Beyond, and without a neck the saucer can sustain catastrophic damage with little or no impact on the secondary hull. Another thing they could do but haven't (or at least haven't shown yet on the ships we've seen so far) is keep a set of backup nacelles docked with the secondary hull ready for deployment incase the primary nacelles are destroyed or need to be ejected for some reason (I suppose they might be able to use programmable matter to quickly build a new one instead). In the show they say it increases maneuverability but that particular explanation seems far fetched to me.

    This comes from a time when an X-Man can wipe out your high warp ships with a cry. The power requirements to have magical nacelles would be insane and If they have the technology and power to do so then there shouldn't have ever been a problem with space travel. Also all that excess power used to create the floating ship parts would be more useful in being used to create more powerful shields or weapons or to "combine" 4 smaller actual ships together instead of just 4 ship parts.

  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 27
    payback99 wrote: »
    This comes from a time when an X-Man can wipe out your high warp ships with a cry.
    Q could have done it with a finger snap.
    I can see some legitimate reasons for detached nacelles and hulls (the Janeway doesn't appear to have a neck either). On Starfleet ships the most obvious weak points are the neck and the pylons, both of which have been exploited in an episode or movie. By eliminating those entirely you remove key vulnerabilities, sure the nacelles can still be targeted directly but they can't be physically torn off the ship like they were in Beyond, and without a neck the saucer can sustain catastrophic damage with little or no impact on the secondary hull. Another thing they could do but haven't (or at least haven't shown yet on the ships we've seen so far) is keep a set of backup nacelles docked with the secondary hull ready for deployment incase the primary nacelles are destroyed or need to be ejected for some reason (I suppose they might be able to use programmable matter to quickly build a new one instead). In the show they say it increases maneuverability but that particular explanation seems far fetched to me.
    The neck and pylons have always been major structural weak points in Star Trek ships, joked about even in the day of TOS.

    I wonder if the 32nd century Klingon ships lack a neck also. Its just a floating hammer head and a engineering module. I would love to see that.
  • payback99payback99 Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    edited February 27
    payback99 wrote: »
    This comes from a time when an X-Man can wipe out your high warp ships with a cry.
    Q could have done it with a finger snap.

    And what does that have to do with the Federation having magical power sources that can make your ship parts float and yet can't go fast in space(yes I know they can go fast they just have to worry about potential antimatter/matter reactions going uncontrolled)? Also if you can do so why wouldn't all your ship parts be mini ships in their own right?

    Q are also advanced god like beings. While Su'Kal is a dude stolen from Marvel/Disney and one of likely Trillions of babies that would have been around Dilithium and radiation over the course of the universes existence.

    Hopefully a Q retcons all of Picard and Discovery out of existence.
  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    This is debatable. Roddenberry demanded that TAS be stricken from canon. He was not a fan and Paramount agreed to strike it from canon. However, a particular writer decided to reference some things that happened in TAS during the TNG show, so the idea that TAS is canon is very questionable and highly debatable.
    Roddenberry also didn't think the movies were, or should be, canon. We see how far that went. Not to mention, Roddenberry doesn't control canon, CBS does. And, last CBS said about it, TAS was canon.

    We have also seen/heard several TAS only things like Kzinti, Vendorians, and Phylosians, in Picard, and Lower Decks. And TAS elements like the holodeck, and the on board diltihum vault, line up with Discovery.

    "Not to mention, Roddenberry doesn't control canon, CBS does. And, last CBS said about it, TAS was canon." While a very true statement of reality it's also a statement I think exposes 2-sides of the same coin for Star Trek's priorities: profit (CBS) & Roddenberry (Story) among other things for both. The way your sentence was framed I think shows your leanings, somtaawkhar, unfortunately.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 27
    "Not to mention, Roddenberry doesn't control canon, CBS does. And, last CBS said about it, TAS was canon." While a very true statement of reality it's also a statement I think exposes 2-sides of the same coin for Star Trek's priorities: profit (CBS) & Roddenberry (Story) among other things for both. The way your sentence was framed I think shows your leanings, somtaawkhar, unfortunately.
    You have that backwards.

    It was Roddenberry who cared about profit more then anything. TOS was the most inconsistent Trek show because Roddenberry didn't care about consistency, or "plot", and he actively opposed writer's efforts to give the characters more depth, and backstory, because the cast was supposed to be perfect, and it didn't matter what their backstory was. The movies giving the characters just that is part of the reason why he hated them. Not to mention the slew of his other character flaws which seeped into TOS, and early TNG.

    DS9 is my favorite Trek because it was the first Trek with a real story, and actual characters, instead of the caricatures of TOS/TNG. And it was only possible because Gene wasn't involved. I also like the new shows because they are so plot/story focused over things like TOS/TNG, and have actual characters.

    The only thing Gene cared about was getting a paycheck, and using his position to play out the creepy fantasies he had in his head about how he would get girls.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    davideight wrote: »
    Nog class next pls. cause i dont like that, its to classic to be a new design.

    With how the Eisenberg-class looks, I'm almost expecting it to be a lobi MW-focused (due to Nog being good at Engineering and fixing problems), beefed-up Baltim raider with a self-replicating-32nd-century-mine console, based on Nog's father's invention.
    #TASforSTO
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  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    With what advances we have made, there are still fundamental truths, like if you don't need magnetic levitation why are you bothering with it? There's too much that can go wrong so Keep It Simple Stupid. Fancy tech solutions only work as long as the power does, and every redundant system can fail too.

    I can see some legitimate reasons for detached nacelles and hulls (the Janeway doesn't appear to have a neck either). On Starfleet ships the most obvious weak points are the neck and the pylons, both of which have been exploited in an episode or movie. By eliminating those entirely you remove key vulnerabilities, sure the nacelles can still be targeted directly but they can't be physically torn off the ship like they were in Beyond, and without a neck the saucer can sustain catastrophic damage with little or no impact on the secondary hull. Another thing they could do but haven't (or at least haven't shown yet on the ships we've seen so far) is keep a set of backup nacelles docked with the secondary hull ready for deployment incase the primary nacelles are destroyed or need to be ejected for some reason (I suppose they might be able to use programmable matter to quickly build a new one instead). In the show they say it increases maneuverability but that particular explanation seems far fetched to me.

    The problem is that the neck and pylons serve a purpose and overengineering a solution to remove them creates new vulnerabilities. With only a magnetic field holding things together, it becomes extremely susceptible to directed energy weapons and charged particles, and they don't have to actually impact the ship, just pass through the field.

    And 24th century Starfleet fixed the problem of neck and pylon vulnerabilities, they made the Defiant.
  • vegeta50024vegeta50024 Member Posts: 2,178 Arc User
    This is beyond ridiculous.

    We have a ship that won't be in active service for 700 YEARS. This goes way beyond a ship that is rare. This is a ship that simply does not belong.

    Now... If Cryptic were to create a branch of the game set in the 32nd century that is isolated from the core game, in which our 32nd century character serves on the USS Janeway, and they treated it like an on-going series that gives us a reason to keep coming back to it, I would actually pay money to play that content.

    But hell... CBS doesn't care about Star Trek continuity... Why should Cryptic?

    Well, time travel solves everything. Its why we have 29th and 31st century ships in game, among others. Of course... time travel is banned where this thing comes from (though no one can stop it from happening, so who cares?)

    I don't like the inclusion of those ships either.

    We should have been given a choice of eras rather than just a mish mosh of everything just thrown together willy nilly with no meaning or purpose.

    Yes... "Time travel solves everything" It's one of the most done to death tropes in Star Trek. So far, Discovery is the first Trek show to not only strand the crew in a time period not of their own, but actually integrate them into that era with a clear implication that they are not going back. It works, because you can take an outdated ship, gut its systems and replace them with contemporary ones, refit the hull and upgrade offensive and defensive systems, thus making it viable for contemporary use.

    But we have a ship from 700 years in the future. This thing needs to have the stats of a Tier 100 ship. It should by its very nature outclass every ship in the game with the 29th and 31st century ships maybe standing a chance to hold their own in comparrison. And we won't just see one of these... They'll be popping up all over the place.

    By that logic of what the Janeway class should be, The 26th, 29th, and 31st century ships should be higher tiers as well, because they come from farther into the future. Yet they are about on par with 25th century ships and even earlier ships because STO is about making things fair on the level of how ships compete at the same level competitively.

    I was being sarcastic. But you cannot tell me that ships from CENTURIES into the future would not be equipped with offensive and defensive tech that would trounce pretty much anything. They would not be on par with 25th century ships.

    Regardless of how you feel with the ships from future time periods, they're built the way they're built that they are no more powerful than other ships. Even TOS ships by comparision should in theory be unable to compete, yet they can, because they want to keep Tier 6 ships close to being in line with each other. I don't have any of the Legendary ships, but I'm sure that even those only have a slight edge over non-legendary Tier 6 ships.
    STO is turning into one huge joke.

    S3 of discovery could have and should have been a huge opportunity for Cryptic to go: We now have a Star Trek show set in the 32nd century. Let's create a branch of STO that we can use to explore the potential storytelling in that era.

    But no... We get a lockbox ship. Quick and easy money for yet more meaningless fluff.

    First off, I want to say that as always, you expect too much when it comes to the team for STO. As it stands, they have just enough people to provide content for an episode or two every few months.
    Whose fault is that? Not mine. They are sitting on one of the biggest, most beloved IPs in the WORLD. The people who set their budget have money rolling in from the fluff that we are too stupid to stop throwing our money at and start demanding real content for our money. PWE can affors to allocate enough funds to hire more developers to turn STO into more than a mediocre catch-all for gamble box ships that make no narrative sense for the setting.

    I feel like a lot of this probably can be saved for another thread so it doesn't derail the thread anymore than it has, but just to be clear, we don't know how much actual money ends up being made from everything that gets spent (since they don't ever tell us the numbers). What we do need to know is that the money is being used as much as it can to do things. I bet the reason why the dev team actually isn't much bigger because the people above the devs, but below Perfect World, think where the teams are at is sufficient enough to get done what the games need to.

    We as consumers do have a right to demand more content. However, there is only so much that they can do within their departments.
    Yet, you want them to open up more sections of the game specifically for the purpose of exploring a new era. An era that, hardly has anything known about the rest of the galaxy beyond what Discovery has already shown from season 3. We don't even know the current status of the Klingons. I'm pretty sure that 32nd century is off the table for storytelling.
    We know what the state of the galaxy was like at the point Discovery entered the 32nd century. If the Voyager-J is a Janeway Class, then it means that there is a USS Janeway which was the first of that class. We do not know when it was commissioned. It may have been in service for a good 10 years before the events of DIS-S3. We also do not know how long the Voyager-J had been in service. But it doesn't matter. Let's assume that the Janeway Class has been around for at the very least 5 years. Set the 32nd century plotline five years before the events in DIS-S3. Make its sector space map limited to four sectors, but spread it out so that it is the size of the beta quadrant map. This will approximate the limited range of travel due to the Burn. Use a modified version of the endeavor system to facilitate mission objectives within the system, preferably ones that can be failed resulting in either a +1 or -1 applied to a meta score, which in turn could be used to trigger other missions. Keep all the endeavor-based missions for the 32nd century relevant to the known state of the galaxy. This will give us something to do even after the introduction story arc is completed. Timeline can be advanced by a year for each new story arc. That would give them 5 full story arcs to release over however long it takes them in real time before they hit the point where Discovery enters the era. The 6th arc would address the immediate ramifications of S3. The 7th arc would follow on the heels of the events of S4, whatever they end up being...

    I came up with this in the space of 20 minutes. What's Cryptic's excuse. It is their job to come up with content for the game. I'm just some random individual on a forum. What the hell are they spending all their budget on? Not world building, that's for sure.

    They're worldbuilding the era that the bulk of the game has ALWAYS been set in, the 25th century. That's honestly the only world they need to focus on. Sure, they've done missions outside of it at times, but that's only when the story arc demands it (like the TOS arc, the Discovery arc, the Temporal arcs). The rest of the time, we're doing stuff in 2411, where we should be for the sake of the game's story.

    There would be nothing for them to cover for the ramifications of Discovery Season 3 anyway. Discovery Season 4 is going to cover that. If they somehow leave things out, THEN maybe they could do something there. But for now, anything there is off the table as far as I'm concerned.
    Agents of Yesterday was an opportunity for Cryptic to give STO an on-going 23rd century branch to the game. But no... Once the introduction is over it's a jump to the 25th century where we can continue with our character from the 23rd century doing the same junk our regular 25th century characters do...

    Agents of Yesterday was NEVER an opportunity for them to do an on-going branch to the game. The intent was for them to pay tribute for a few classic follow-up stories to classic episodes, introduce the Na'kuhl and bring the TOS Fed character into the 25th century, where the bulk of the story takes place. Hence why they didn't build the map any bigger than around the few sectors they did.
    And that is why it is a missed opportunity... They could have added to the TOS era map over time had they wanted to. They could have added more missions. They could have made the TOS era a game unto itself. But they didn't. They made it a point to include all that TOS-themed artwork, sound effects, and even a special shader that made it look like it was being viewed on an old CRT TV... All for a few levels of unique TOS-era content, and then it was off to the same old same old...

    They made a point to do all of that, because they introduced a sub-faction of the Federation into the game, for the purposes of showing that the Na'khul were involved in a plot in that era, and a TOS officer was recruited to stop them, making the TOS officer a Temporal agent from that point forward. The TOS Fed character was always meant to be moved forward in time so that they could be apart of the events that were recorded (being at the final battle of the Temporal Cold War).

    I'm sure if we still had the foundry and they had devoted assets to it, people could have worked on those missed opportunities, but as they decided that the Foundry was no longer something that they wanted to maintain every time they brought in a new update, they boxed it up and sent it off to the great beyond. That's all I'll say there.
    Legacy of Romulus was an opportunity to give STO a branch in which we can enjoy a romulan storyline. But once the intro is done, we get to choose red or blue, and again continue to advance using content that our other characters already do]

    Every chance they have to give a unique experience within what starts out as a unique branch just gets rolled into the same mediocre BS...

    Wrong on Legacy of Romulus. They gave us a good number of episodes for the Romulans, even more so than what the Klingons get.

    After we choose an ally, we go through an arc where we discover that the Tal Shiar don't even trust their own people to give information, to infiltrating them to see what it is that they're up to. We then progress into the Nimbus arc where we not only kick out the Orions out of Nimbus but also the Tal Shiar and come face to face with the Elachi in person for the first time. From there, we deal with many attacks from the Elachi ending with an all out assault by them on New Romulus. Romulan Mystery is of course when we the original Romulan story and have them join up with the rest of the game from that point.
    My point is that once you make that choice between UFP and KDF, we stop being in a true romulan storyline, and ultimately just end up doing the same thing everyone else does, without even any alternative dialogue choices. There may have been a little more content, but that was the first origin story to be added to the game aside from 25c UFP/KDF. All other origin stories after that are, run the intro and bang, rolled into 25C era content that if it wasn't your first character, you've already done to death by now.

    Enough people had refused to move beyond the origin content that we just recently received the announcement that going forward it would be impossible for them to advnce unless they make the jump. Now why would this be an issue? To me it demonstrates a clear desire on the part of players to play a pure character set in that origin. Cryptic even acknowledged that in the very announcement that told them they cannot. If it were me calling the shots, I would look at it and say, "hey. Even though there's not much to do in these origin branches, people clearly like them enough to choose not to leave them. What can we do to add actual value to them?"

    Missed opportunities.

    It was an issue because people want to explore the 23rd century more, but can't because of the theme park design that Cryptic has designed for STO. DSC and TOS Feds have their fun in the 23rd century and then are shifted to the 25th so they can continue the adventure of where Cryptic wants the story to go towards.

    I honestly would have liked it if we had a more perfect world where STO was a more big budget game and they could stand to expand the game further so that if players wanted to, they could live out the 23rd century longer and move to the 25th century at the end of the TOS storyline. I may expand on this thought in the future, but that is for another thread.
    But they aren't even bothering to give us an intro set in the 32nd century before throwing us back in time to the same mediocre stuff.

    Just a gamble box. One and done. Next...

    I bet we don't even get a ship interior with the Janeway class... Hell... I bet we don't even get a bridge.

    Not going to throw money at this. Launch a story arc set in the 32nd century, charge for it, and let this ship be part of it, and I will buy it. But the ship by itself in a gamble box... No.

    Like I said, we don't really have much more information on what to expect and since Season 4 continues on where Season 3 did, they probably want to let it simmer before they bring anything in from then. Just like they're being cautious about story elements from Picard. So no, we're not getting any story elements from Season 3 just yet.

    We're definitely going to not get a bridge. No 32nd century bridges have been shown thus far in the series, much less a complete interior.
    And because of that, Cryptic gets a pass on not exercising creative license?

    We have seen what 32nd century starfleet architecture looks like. That's a strting point. If they can get the 3D models for the ship, then they can get the models used for the virtual sets.

    If Cryptic is too small a team to give any focus to actual world building beyond just throw-away introductions that you never get to revisit, then they need to hire more people, or get the hell out of the way and let a larger, better equipped team to take over.

    Star Trek as a globally recognizable IP is to great for an MMO of such intentional mediocrity, owned by a company that can afford to do way better but refuses to...

    See I would buy a 32nd ventury origin story arc. I would buy additional 32nd century, Romulan, and TOS arcs. I will not buy ships. The former actually would give me more content to play. The latter just gives me a new skin to wear while doing the same old mediocre hamster wheel stuff over and over again...

    Maybe if they stood to actually make money off of playable content we would get more than one or two episodes over the course of several months.

    But no. New ship nobody asks for or doesn't make narrative sense slapped in a gamble box... Because they know they can easily get the magic number of per unit sales to keep PWE satisfied with profit reports. And this time, they have the actual 3D model from CBS which only needed its polycount scaled down to be viable in STO. So it isn't like the artist had to build the design from scratch. But they will make major bank off it because we cannot control our "gotta have it" urges enough to see it for the weaksauce it is and demandmeatier content for the money.

    This is MY opinion on the matter. Your opinion and that of others will differ. I only can own my own thoughts, not anyone else's.

    1. Cryptic has done some stuff in regards to creative license. They tied the Elachi & the Solanae, two unrelated small powers from two different series into a combined story that places them as servitors of the Iconians. They introduced an origin for the Sphere Builders and connected them to next story arc they planned on doing. They took a species on DS9 mentioned but never seen and not only fleshed them out based on behind the scenes descriptions but also completely fleshed out their ships and what powers they use. They use their creative license when it's deemed fit.

    2. I'm not going to comment much more on the size of Cryptic's team for STO more than what I already have. They feel they're doing good with the team they have, and even if we ask for more, somehow I don't think they're going to do much in the way of doing it, unless people are really that interested in coming to work for them if they want to see something change.

    3. Regardless of your willingness to buy story content, making paid story content is something that Cryptic has never done for any of their games, NOR will they ever, for the life of any of their games IMO. That's just not how they operate. Some people honestly keep the game going by purchasing/gambling the fluff that you don't like, just so that they can look good while doing the things that you clearly don't like doing over and over and what not. Space barbie is where endgame is at for them.

    Those people that "have to have it" usually are the whales of the game who keep the game afloat by throwing money to have whatever it is the devs create. Every game has them, and as long as there is stuff for the devs to draw from, they'll keep bringing stuff out.

    The devs do their best to create stuff that everyone has the right to take in. They can never focus to one group because then they would never get anything THEY wanted to get done. Its as simple as that.

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  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    "Not to mention, Roddenberry doesn't control canon, CBS does. And, last CBS said about it, TAS was canon." While a very true statement of reality it's also a statement I think exposes 2-sides of the same coin for Star Trek's priorities: profit (CBS) & Roddenberry (Story) among other things for both. The way your sentence was framed I think shows your leanings, somtaawkhar, unfortunately.
    You have that backwards.

    It was Roddenberry who cared about profit more then anything. TOS was the most inconsistent Trek show because Roddenberry didn't care about consistency, or "plot", and he actively opposed writer's efforts to give the characters more depth, and backstory, because the cast was supposed to be perfect, and it didn't matter what their backstory was. The movies giving the characters just that is part of the reason why he hated them. Not to mention the slew of his other character flaws which seeped into TOS, and early TNG.

    DS9 is my favorite Trek because it was the first Trek with a real story, and actual characters, instead of the caricatures of TOS/TNG. And it was only possible because Gene wasn't involved. I also like the new shows because they are so plot/story focused over things like TOS/TNG, and have actual characters.

    The only thing Gene cared about was getting a paycheck, and using his position to play out the creepy fantasies he had in his head about how he would get girls.

    Is there a documentary or a source you can reference to reinforce that? Not being snarky, I'd just find that type of juxtaposed positioning fascinating, & if true a bit disheartening, my favorite used to be TNG since that's what I grew-up with but as I've grown older I really prefer DS9 too & that certainly could be a prime example of this point.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 27
    3. Regardless of your willingness to buy story content, making paid story content is something that Cryptic has never done for any of their games, NOR will they ever, for the life of any of their games IMO. That's just not how they operate. Some people honestly keep the game going by purchasing/gambling the fluff that you don't like, just so that they can look good while doing the things that you clearly don't like doing over and over and what not. Space barbie is where endgame is at for them.
    Making story content paid also just creates a massive divide among the playerbase.

    This has become an issue in Guild Wars 2 where, if you log in while its the most current release, you get that story content free for your account, but if you come in later you have to pay for it. Since GW2 is now 8+ years old, people trying to come into it now, due to the upcoming expansion hype, have to spend hundreds of dollars to try to play catch up, and it just turns off people from buying it at all. But not buying it also leaves them confused on who all these characters are, why they are this way, etc. etc. because they don't have the years of backstory from the episodes old players do.

    Even with charging for content, Anet, the developers behind Guild Wars 2, put out a new, 3 hour long or so, release every 3-4 months... not too much more then the average STO release of two, hourish long, missions ever 3-4 months. Anet only got the pace down to once every two months or so by cutting the content releases sizes in half, and essentially splitting one release into two.

    Charging for story content doesn't actually help developers make more content, or make it faster.
  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    3. Regardless of your willingness to buy story content, making paid story content is something that Cryptic has never done for any of their games, NOR will they ever, for the life of any of their games IMO. That's just not how they operate. Some people honestly keep the game going by purchasing/gambling the fluff that you don't like, just so that they can look good while doing the things that you clearly don't like doing over and over and what not. Space barbie is where endgame is at for them.
    Making story content paid also just creates a massive divide among the playerbase.

    This has become an issue in Guild Wars 2 where, if you log in while its the most current release, you get that story content free for your account, but if you come in later you have to pay for it. Since GW2 is now 8+ years old, people trying to come into it now, due to the upcoming expansion hype, have to spend hundreds of dollars to try to play catch up, and it just turns off people from buying it at all. But not buying it also leaves them confused on who all these characters are, why they are this way, etc. etc. because they don't have the years of backstory from the episodes old players do.

    Even with charging for content, Anet, the developers behind Guild Wars 2, put out a new, 3 hour long or so, release every 3-4 months... not too much more then the average STO release of two, hourish long, missions ever 3-4 months. Anet only got the pace down to once every two months or so by cutting the content releases sizes in half, and essentially splitting one release into two.

    Charging for story content doesn't actually help developers make more content, or make it faster.

    Just injecting myself into the GW/GW2 part, I really enjoyed GW back in the day, though it wasn't perfect, the artistry of the environment blew me away, I enjoyed the mechanics of the play though I never got into PvP much, & it was one of the few games I bought very shortly after initial release. I didn't play it daily all the way through it's run though I tapered off in my daily play around between Nightfall & Eye of the North & now haven't touched it in probably 2 years. I bought a CE of GW2 & played it a little but from the get go it didn't catch & hold my attention the same. I haven't touched GW2 in probably the same amount of time though I remember my first created characters were a Charr followed by a an Asura.

    I think any story content is good regardless if it is divisive to the playerbase. I even think Cryptic has focused too much on gambling content & not enough story content being added to STO but to their credit so far Cryptic has gotten away with it. Luckily, STO hasn't, yet, placed story content behind a paywall like they do most of their fear-of-missing-out rewarded items. Though that convoluted Available tab & the decision to pull storyline missions before there are replacements is close enough.
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