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Star Trek 4 Reportedly Back On The Table, William Shatner Eyed To Return

fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
Noah Hawley dropped his reboot in favor of Hulu’s Alien series with Ridley Scott, Wrath of Khan producer Robert Sallin’s pitch was only the seed of an idea, and Quentin Tarantino’s R-rated effort has been powered almost entirely by hyperbole and hot air without moving any further forward. By the process of elimination, then, that put the fourth installment in the Kelvin timeline back in the driving seat.

Chris Pine and Zachary Quinto want it to happen, although Simon Pegg remains unsure that it will, but the latest report is claiming that Star Trek 4 is now on the table again with a new director at the helm replacing S.J. Clarkson. Not only that, but William Shatner is also reportedly being eyed to fill the legacy role occupied by Leonard Nimoy in the first two movies.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/star-trek-4-reportedly-table-time-added-william-shatner/
[4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

[3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    Shatner has been said to be having a cameo for years now. Shatner himself has been saying this is not happening, so take this with a grain of salt.
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,415 Arc User
    There is literally nothing substantial in this. More of the same old 'insider rumors'.
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    If there is another KT film I expect it to tie into DSC or SNW rather than retreading TOS actors again. It's more likely we won't get one. The KT is a film franchise and CBS isn't making Trek films for the foreseeable and they currently have up to 4 live action TV shows to juggle.

    As much as I liked the KT, I think it probably ended with BEY.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    They wouldn't be able to tie into DSC or SNW because they're not only separate realities, but different time periods too. And how would it tie into the TV shows anyways? They'd have to have something in a show to tie into that, and that would just get messy.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    They wouldn't be able to tie into DSC or SNW because they're not only separate realities, but different time periods too. And how would it tie into the TV shows anyways? They'd have to have something in a show to tie into that, and that would just get messy.

    They're a reality that started 30 years before the time of DSCS1 and BEY runs more or less parallel with the end of DSCS2 and the beginning SNW (providing SNW takes us from DSC to TOS).

    By tie in I mean deal with some of the same stuff their Prime counterparts have to deal with, or a good old fashion alternate timeline episode where one of the Spocks or Enterprises falls into the other timeline. It would be incredibly easy to tie them in.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    Written right there:
    "By the process of elimination", in other words they are guessing.

    if you have seen that you wouldn't have needed to create this thread, it's just another rumour in the end.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    They wouldn't be able to tie into DSC or SNW because they're not only separate realities, but different time periods too. And how would it tie into the TV shows anyways? They'd have to have something in a show to tie into that, and that would just get messy.

    They're a reality that started 30 years before the time of DSCS1 and BEY runs more or less parallel with the end of DSCS2 and the beginning SNW (providing SNW takes us from DSC to TOS).

    By tie in I mean deal with some of the same stuff their Prime counterparts have to deal with, or a good old fashion alternate timeline episode where one of the Spocks or Enterprises falls into the other timeline. It would be incredibly easy to tie them in.

    Sadly, considering the opinions expressed by Kurtzman and company in their behind the scenes features and various interviews it is highly unlikely that SNW would actually lead to TOS unless they turned it over to a different team (like Lower Decks has) who actually know Trek, and (in the case SNW leading to TOS) like the essence of TOS and don't just look down their noses at it in contempt because of the lower production values and SFX limitations of TV in the 1960s.

    It might end with Pike turning over DSC-Enterprise to Kirk or something along those lines, but it would be a vastly different Enterprise and a sort of alt-TOS with very large fundamental differences. That egotistical contempt is also why it is unlikely that they could believably pull off a crossover with TOS though they would probably not have much trouble with a Kelvin/SNW crossover if they really wanted to.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    OR they could take the Gene Roddenberry approach and just say "it always looked that way" like when he explained the look of the TMP Klingons vs TOS Klingons.

    There is nothing about the DSC Connie that says she can't work in TOS. A visual reboot doesn't eliminate what came before. Trying to say that it must, without question, look EXACTLY like TOS because of X, Y and Z Episodes of later shows is a bit of a paradox. Not only that... a modern audience would expect more detail than the 1960s so trying to do a 1:1 recreation of 1960s designs might turn new fans off while catering solely to old fans. Not exactly a good way to bring in new fans and introduce them to the expanding universe that is Star Trek.

    Nothing in Discovery or the upcoming Strange New Worlds contradicts anything that "will happen" in TOS in terms of visuals. When they designed the Connie in Discovery, they updated the look, but everything about her screams TOS at her core. The uniforms, the bridge layout, the overall look of the ship... Sure she's not the pearl white, straight pylons TOS classic, but she would fit in just fine. The Bridge layout, while updated visually, is virtually the same as TOS. You can just picture Kirk in The Chair with Spock at his side and Bones pacing behind them just fine. Sulu would be at home at the Helm, with Chekov to his right, and Scotty, when he's not down in Engineering, would be perfectly fine at his usual Bridge station. Uhura would be right at home at Comms off to Kirks right.

    The only difference is the updated look and controls. But at its core... is the classic TOS.
    And don't forget there's still like 10 years or so before Kirk takes command. It is still possible that a minor refit is in Enterprise's future before that handover. So honestly... we really cannot judge what WILL happen based on how things looked before, because we don't know what will happen at all. They may end the series with a refit based on some newly developed tech that will lead her to looking like the TOS style more. We just don't know. And trying to say anything to try and divorce it from TOS... is a can of worms best left alone because we've seen how those debates turn out.

    Ultimately how things look... we all have our preferences. Me personally... I liked the TMP bridge more than TOS because it looked more functional as the nerve center of a starship. She had more controls and more ability to display data than we saw in TOS. The Discovery style controls also provide that, while also linking into the evolution of touchscreen displays as well that we would "later" see in ST5 and 6, which would later evolve into the 24th Century LCARS displays.

    And again ultimately... we wouldn't have any of that... if not for the existance of the classic TOS style. Everything since then has been an evolution of that.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 3,070 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    OR they could take the Gene Roddenberry approach and just say "it always looked that way" like when he explained the look of the TMP Klingons vs TOS Klingons.

    There is nothing about the DSC Connie that says she can't work in TOS. A visual reboot doesn't eliminate what came before. Trying to say that it must, without question, look EXACTLY like TOS because of X, Y and Z Episodes of later shows is a bit of a paradox. Not only that... a modern audience would expect more detail than the 1960s so trying to do a 1:1 recreation of 1960s designs might turn new fans off while catering solely to old fans. Not exactly a good way to bring in new fans and introduce them to the expanding universe that is Star Trek.

    Nothing in Discovery or the upcoming Strange New Worlds contradicts anything that "will happen" in TOS in terms of visuals. When they designed the Connie in Discovery, they updated the look, but everything about her screams TOS at her core. The uniforms, the bridge layout, the overall look of the ship... Sure she's not the pearl white, straight pylons TOS classic, but she would fit in just fine. The Bridge layout, while updated visually, is virtually the same as TOS. You can just picture Kirk in The Chair with Spock at his side and Bones pacing behind them just fine. Sulu would be at home at the Helm, with Chekov to his right, and Scotty, when he's not down in Engineering, would be perfectly fine at his usual Bridge station. Uhura would be right at home at Comms off to Kirks right.

    The only difference is the updated look and controls. But at its core... is the classic TOS.
    And don't forget there's still like 10 years or so before Kirk takes command. It is still possible that a minor refit is in Enterprise's future before that handover. So honestly... we really cannot judge what WILL happen based on how things looked before, because we don't know what will happen at all. They may end the series with a refit based on some newly developed tech that will lead her to looking like the TOS style more. We just don't know. And trying to say anything to try and divorce it from TOS... is a can of worms best left alone because we've seen how those debates turn out.

    Ultimately how things look... we all have our preferences. Me personally... I liked the TMP bridge more than TOS because it looked more functional as the nerve center of a starship. She had more controls and more ability to display data than we saw in TOS. The Discovery style controls also provide that, while also linking into the evolution of touchscreen displays as well that we would "later" see in ST5 and 6, which would later evolve into the 24th Century LCARS displays.

    And again ultimately... we wouldn't have any of that... if not for the existance of the classic TOS style. Everything since then has been an evolution of that.

    I am in agreement with this view. We are not in the 60s anymore. TOS at the time was what the 60s thought that century would be like. Our technology in the real world has expanded by leaps and bounds since then.
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    They wouldn't be able to tie into DSC or SNW because they're not only separate realities, but different time periods too. And how would it tie into the TV shows anyways? They'd have to have something in a show to tie into that, and that would just get messy.

    They're a reality that started 30 years before the time of DSCS1 and BEY runs more or less parallel with the end of DSCS2 and the beginning SNW (providing SNW takes us from DSC to TOS).

    By tie in I mean deal with some of the same stuff their Prime counterparts have to deal with, or a good old fashion alternate timeline episode where one of the Spocks or Enterprises falls into the other timeline. It would be incredibly easy to tie them in.

    Sadly, considering the opinions expressed by Kurtzman and company in their behind the scenes features and various interviews it is highly unlikely that SNW would actually lead to TOS unless they turned it over to a different team (like Lower Decks has) who actually know Trek, and (in the case SNW leading to TOS) like the essence of TOS and don't just look down their noses at it in contempt because of the lower production values and SFX limitations of TV in the 1960s.

    It might end with Pike turning over DSC-Enterprise to Kirk or something along those lines, but it would be a vastly different Enterprise and a sort of alt-TOS with very large fundamental differences. That egotistical contempt is also why it is unlikely that they could believably pull off a crossover with TOS though they would probably not have much trouble with a Kelvin/SNW crossover if they really wanted to.

    TOS era. I don't care if it looks like painted cardboard or not, it'll still probably lead into it.
    That egotistical contempt

    My gods! The owners and runners of their own franchise want their franchise to follow their vision! The horror!
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    My gods! The owners and runners of their own franchise want their franchise to follow their vision! The horror!

    That can be accomplished while honoring and respecting what came before. From interviews I have seen with Kurtzman and Chabon, yes they do kind of TRIBBLE on TOS.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    valoreah wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    My gods! The owners and runners of their own franchise want their franchise to follow their vision! The horror!

    That can be accomplished while honoring and respecting what came before. From interviews I have seen with Kurtzman and Chabon, yes they do kind of TRIBBLE on TOS.

    Yeah it was terrible when the discarded all of TOS when TMP came about. Terrible. I don't think it was Kurtzman though, somebody who's name began with an 'R', it'll come back to me.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah it was terrible when the discarded all of TOS when TMP came about. Terrible. I don't think it was Kurtzman though, somebody who's name began with an 'R', it'll come back to me.

    I believe you and I are talking about two very different things. If you are referring to production design, I do not think Discovery should have copied the now cheesy (IMO) TOS designs verbatim.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
    sthe91 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    OR they could take the Gene Roddenberry approach and just say "it always looked that way" like when he explained the look of the TMP Klingons vs TOS Klingons.

    There is nothing about the DSC Connie that says she can't work in TOS. A visual reboot doesn't eliminate what came before. Trying to say that it must, without question, look EXACTLY like TOS because of X, Y and Z Episodes of later shows is a bit of a paradox. Not only that... a modern audience would expect more detail than the 1960s so trying to do a 1:1 recreation of 1960s designs might turn new fans off while catering solely to old fans. Not exactly a good way to bring in new fans and introduce them to the expanding universe that is Star Trek.

    Nothing in Discovery or the upcoming Strange New Worlds contradicts anything that "will happen" in TOS in terms of visuals. When they designed the Connie in Discovery, they updated the look, but everything about her screams TOS at her core. The uniforms, the bridge layout, the overall look of the ship... Sure she's not the pearl white, straight pylons TOS classic, but she would fit in just fine. The Bridge layout, while updated visually, is virtually the same as TOS. You can just picture Kirk in The Chair with Spock at his side and Bones pacing behind them just fine. Sulu would be at home at the Helm, with Chekov to his right, and Scotty, when he's not down in Engineering, would be perfectly fine at his usual Bridge station. Uhura would be right at home at Comms off to Kirks right.

    The only difference is the updated look and controls. But at its core... is the classic TOS.
    And don't forget there's still like 10 years or so before Kirk takes command. It is still possible that a minor refit is in Enterprise's future before that handover. So honestly... we really cannot judge what WILL happen based on how things looked before, because we don't know what will happen at all. They may end the series with a refit based on some newly developed tech that will lead her to looking like the TOS style more. We just don't know. And trying to say anything to try and divorce it from TOS... is a can of worms best left alone because we've seen how those debates turn out.

    Ultimately how things look... we all have our preferences. Me personally... I liked the TMP bridge more than TOS because it looked more functional as the nerve center of a starship. She had more controls and more ability to display data than we saw in TOS. The Discovery style controls also provide that, while also linking into the evolution of touchscreen displays as well that we would "later" see in ST5 and 6, which would later evolve into the 24th Century LCARS displays.

    And again ultimately... we wouldn't have any of that... if not for the existance of the classic TOS style. Everything since then has been an evolution of that.

    I am in agreement with this view. We are not in the 60s anymore. TOS at the time was what the 60s thought that century would be like. Our technology in the real world has expanded by leaps and bounds since then.

    Star Trek in general would - I think - benefit from abandoning the hyper advanced technology that too often only serves as an easy plot device. And instead get closer to technology and society nowadays.

    That way, it could regain its real world significance, allow the series to be about offering critique about contemporary society again. In my opinion, Star Trek's problem isn't too modern looks. It's that it's a franchise set so far in the future that little of it has any real world significance, while stuff that is relevant today is ignored.

    Example: genetic engineering. There are serious pro's and con's to be discussed, with consequences in moral, economic and social dimensions for all layers of society. But Star Trek's most renowned take on it is the 'super soldier in space-threat'. Another example: social media and fake news, a topic that deserves more than just a superficial 'truth is important'-speech from Picard.

    It's one thing I liked about Enterprise, which wasn't set in the too distant future. It was more clearly dealing with humanity with all its flaws.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    valoreah wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    Yeah it was terrible when the discarded all of TOS when TMP came about. Terrible. I don't think it was Kurtzman though, somebody who's name began with an 'R', it'll come back to me.

    I believe you and I are talking about two very different things. If you are referring to production design, I do not think Discovery should have copied the now cheesy (IMO) TOS designs verbatim.

    It's not just production design. TMP and early TNG represent a massive shift away from the standards and values TOS used. Unlike DSC and PIC which follow the exact same tone and style as their predecessors (the KT, ENT, and DS9) had, TMP and TNG threw out the vast majority of what TOS had done and took the franchise in a massively different direction whilst disparaging what TOS was in ideals.

    That's neither a good or bad thing to me, I don't care for the majority of TOS or any of TMP/S1-3 TNG anyway so I don't care what replaced what, but it's magnitudes more intensive changes than anything any other show has done post-DS9.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


    '...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
    'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
    'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
    'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
    '...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek

    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    It's not just production design. TMP and early TNG represent a massive shift away from the standards and values TOS used. Unlike DSC and PIC which follow the exact same tone and style as their predecessors (the KT, ENT, and DS9) had, TMP and TNG threw out the vast majority of what TOS had done and took the franchise in a massively different direction whilst disparaging what TOS was in ideals.

    That's neither a good or bad thing to me, I don't care for the majority of TOS or any of TMP/S1-3 TNG anyway so I don't care what replaced what, but it's magnitudes more intensive changes than anything any other show has done post-DS9.

    I am not sure I follow you. What standards and values got abandoned from TOS? Not saying you are wrong, just looking to understand.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 26
    valoreah wrote: »
    I am not sure I follow you. What standards and values got abandoned from TOS? Not saying you are wrong, just looking to understand.
    I am going to guess he is talking about how, back in TOS, the Federation was supposed to be this entity of ultimate good, Gene wanted everyone to get along, and shake hands, by the end of the episode, and the main cast was supposed to have no real flaws, and have no real inter personal conflicts.

    Starting with TMP, but especially from Wrath of Khan and onward, this entire ideal was thrown out. The cast was shown to have a lot more character flaws, the Federation was shown to be massively corrupt(even conspiring with the Klingons to keep the conflict between their two governments going), and there was a lot more violence, and solving problems by simply killing your enemy. Gene rather infamously hated the movies, and said he didn't consider them canon. He spent his last days suing everyone involved with Undiscovered Country for "ruining his vision" and making Star Trek "too violent"

    Early TNG was still under Gene's lordship, but starting with Season 3 onward he was pretty much removed from the equation, and we saw a lot of these same changed to TNG season 4-7. DS9 was the first Trek show made away from any real control of Gene, and DS9 is arguly the most dark dipeiction of Trek even today. Taking all of those previously mentioned changes to 11, and throwing in Section 31 for good measure.

    Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery, and Picard, all draw a lot more from the DS9 ideal then they do TOS or early TNG, and are thus a lot more consistent with each other then TOS/early TNG is to any other Trek.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    Hell... it could be argued that Section 31 might have been spearheading the conspiracy in Undiscovered Country. We just didn't get a name until DS9, and its been established that Section 31 has existed since the 22nd Century in the shadows. It was only during the mid 23rd Century that Section 31 was more "open", but went back into the shadows after the issues with Control, and went back to the "Ends Justify the Means" organization we all know.

    And I have no problem with an update to the TOS style, like they successfully did with the DSC Enterprise. It honors what came before while adapting it to modern standards. The layout and everything is the same, but we have more controls, less wasted console space, and some more room.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    Another difference, and one that I didn't care for, was the change to General Order One. The Prime Directive as originally conceived was supposed to be "no interference with the normal development of a viable pre-warp culture", with the definitions of "normal" and "viable" up for interpretation, and cutting off at warp development because once you develop FTL in the Trek universe, you'll be meeting technologically-superior aliens later that afternoon.

    For TNG and later, it became an absolute hands-off policy for anyone not already a Federation member, to the extent that in "Pen Pals" Picard was prepared to let an entire species go extinct rather than provide even minimal assistance. Also, it was extended to apply to even civilians - while Prof. Gill was seen as in the wrong for what he did in "Patterns of Force" (mostly for introducing NSDAP philosophies to Ekos in the mistaken belief they were efficient, the opposite of reality), Nikolai Rozhenko was threatened with legal action for his "violation" of the Prime Directive when he saved the Boraalans from extinction in "Homeward". (In the Directive's defense here, Nikolai was guilty of having "gone native" during his observation mission, which completely invalidated all of his observations; however, I still can't reconcile extinction with either "normality" or "viability".)

    And then of course there was Starfleet's refusal to assist an ally during the Klingon succession, even when they had evidence that Gowron's challenger was a criminal by the standards of both Empire and Federation, hiding behind the flimsy excuse of the Prime Directive as if the Klingon Empire needed to be "protected" from Starfleet's advanced technologies and civilization. (Yet for some reason the Prime Directive did not apply to Bajor...)
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    edited February 27
    I think that the thing with the Klingon Empire was that it was considered an internal matter, and thus the Federation shouldn't take sides. With the Bajorans, they were already warp capable, and had just kicked the Cardassians out but were in no real condition to stand on their own. If I remember correctly the Bajorans asked for support from the Federation to rebuild and keep Cardassia from coming back for revenge. The main difference between the Klingon incident mentioned and the Bajorans is that one was an internal matter within a single, sovereign superpower while the other involved two different species and their respective governments.

    The Prime Directive is still open to interpretation IMO. It seems to vary in how strictly it is interpreted. In Pen Pals, Data knew the Prime Directive, but also interpeted the call for help to also fall under Starfleet Regulations regarding distress calls. In that case... the Prime Directive came into conflict with Regulations.
    So... while the Prime Directive is pretty much the highest law of the land so to speak... what happens when it basically clashes with another? Regulations state that a Federation Starship is to respond to any and all distress calls. But... what if that distress call comes from a pre-warp culture reaching out into space for help?
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    Yes, the Bajorans requested assistance. So did the existing Klingon government. Yet in the latter case, the Federation claimed the Prime Directive "prohibited" them from interfering, while being more than happy to not merely "interfere" at Bajor, but actually set up a permanent outpost in a former Cardassian space station.

    I can only imagine what the 24th-century Starfleet Command would have thought of Kirk's actions at Eminiar VII...
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  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
    You'd almost think the Prime Directive was just a convenient plot device instead of a fully elaborated regulation that was well enforced because it didn't govern the conduct of civil servants with lots of discretionary power aboard far-flung starships. ;)
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited March 1
    rattler2 wrote: »
    OR they could take the Gene Roddenberry approach and just say "it always looked that way" like when he explained the look of the TMP Klingons vs TOS Klingons.

    There is nothing about the DSC Connie that says she can't work in TOS. A visual reboot doesn't eliminate what came before. Trying to say that it must, without question, look EXACTLY like TOS because of X, Y and Z Episodes of later shows is a bit of a paradox. Not only that... a modern audience would expect more detail than the 1960s so trying to do a 1:1 recreation of 1960s designs might turn new fans off while catering solely to old fans. Not exactly a good way to bring in new fans and introduce them to the expanding universe that is Star Trek.

    Nothing in Discovery or the upcoming Strange New Worlds contradicts anything that "will happen" in TOS in terms of visuals. When they designed the Connie in Discovery, they updated the look, but everything about her screams TOS at her core. The uniforms, the bridge layout, the overall look of the ship... Sure she's not the pearl white, straight pylons TOS classic, but she would fit in just fine. The Bridge layout, while updated visually, is virtually the same as TOS. You can just picture Kirk in The Chair with Spock at his side and Bones pacing behind them just fine. Sulu would be at home at the Helm, with Chekov to his right, and Scotty, when he's not down in Engineering, would be perfectly fine at his usual Bridge station. Uhura would be right at home at Comms off to Kirks right.

    The only difference is the updated look and controls. But at its core... is the classic TOS.
    And don't forget there's still like 10 years or so before Kirk takes command. It is still possible that a minor refit is in Enterprise's future before that handover. So honestly... we really cannot judge what WILL happen based on how things looked before, because we don't know what will happen at all. They may end the series with a refit based on some newly developed tech that will lead her to looking like the TOS style more. We just don't know. And trying to say anything to try and divorce it from TOS... is a can of worms best left alone because we've seen how those debates turn out.

    Ultimately how things look... we all have our preferences. Me personally... I liked the TMP bridge more than TOS because it looked more functional as the nerve center of a starship. She had more controls and more ability to display data than we saw in TOS. The Discovery style controls also provide that, while also linking into the evolution of touchscreen displays as well that we would "later" see in ST5 and 6, which would later evolve into the 24th Century LCARS displays.

    And again ultimately... we wouldn't have any of that... if not for the existance of the classic TOS style. Everything since then has been an evolution of that.

    That is like saying The Last Ship would be no different if the Nathan James was a Kuznetsov-class (or Kiev-class) hybrid carrier instead of an Arleigh Burke class DDG (ignoring the difference in nationality for the moment, the point is the ships themselves). The TOS Enterprise was a heavily armored gun-based fast battlecruiser (or battleship if you listen to Roddenberry instead of Kruge) while the DSC one is a heavily armed but apparently unarmored hybrid carrier with the capacity to carry and launch several squadrons. It is anything but a simple "visual reboot".

    Not only do they use completely different design aesthetics (the TOS version is googie but the DSC version is art deco), the basic design philosophies are totally different as well. Jefferies specifically said the ship was designed so everything was repairable from the inside and as little as possible stuck out on top of the armor (in fact he fought to keep the hull smooth when others wanted to stick the usual greebles all over it), while the DSC version requires an army of repair drones to go out on the hull like the Naboo royal ship with its R2s, and the ship has exposed plasma panels and windows and whatnot and looses big chunks of hull from even relatively weak attacks instead of the cracks and blown seals of the TOS ship.

    A huge picture window with a clunky HUD at the front of the bridge instead of a viewscreen, lights set to glare right in the crews eyes and more neon than Vegas "screams TOS"? I don't agree. In fact, with the bulky Lost in Space style braces the stations are fit between the basic design of the bridge screams movie era, not TOS, which is hardly surprising since in the behind the scenes interview Deverell (the lead set designer) had nothing but contempt for the TOS version (she kept calling it "the cardboard enterprise") and said that The Undiscovered Country was the only Star Trek worth a damn. And the other interior areas like the corridors show that TUC preference even more.

    The TOS bridge was designed to give even more information and control function than the TMP one actually. The ring of stations had three levels, the actual controls were on the lowest level, all in easy reach by the crewperson seated there, and were a mix of a few conventional rocker and bat handle mechanical switches along with a few flat small touchscreen-like control surfaces (which were usually dark because the transparencies would burn too fast to keep them on) and a lot of small lit multi-vector-sensitive solid state haptic touch dome controls (the "jewel buttons").

    In fact, if you watch the actor's hands closely you see that Sulu steered the ship by keeping his hand anchored on a few of those "jewels" and rocked it during maneuvers, and Uhura sometimes reached up and made rotating motions to some of them like turning a TRIBBLE so they were not simple pushbuttons at all.

    The middle level of the stations was a line of medium sized screens, though since they had static displays (because the forty eight film loop projectors that would be needed for the whole bridge would have been way too expensive) a lot of people simply don't recognize what they are supposed to be.

    The upper level of the stations had a single huge screen that spanned the full width of the station that was clearly visible to both the station operator and the captain in the center of the bridge, though when NBC insisted they make the bridge lighting brighter those screens were not bright enough to see so they had to cut them down into two much smaller displays.

    The DSC bridge is the only one that actually comes close to having the same amount of the information and control ability as the TOS one, it only needs something to provide the tactile feedback that negates the need to look down at touchscreen icons so the next Uhura can reach back and work controls while looking elsewhere the way that the original often did in TOS.

    The basic ship technology is totally different as well. Warp drive in TOS was seamless, smoothly accelerating at about 10-20% of lightspeed per second up past the speed of light, and (according to dialog in several episodes) they almost never used impulse. DSC ships on the other hand cruise around exclusively on impulse unless they want to go interstellar, at which point they do a Star Wars-like nearly instant jump to lightspeed and apparently cannot see where they are going very well since they "drop to impulse" right into things like an incredibly dense asteroid belt that the TOS ship would have had no trouble seeing and avoiding.

    That brings up the sensor issue. In TOS they often saw enemy ships approaching in warp up to several hours out (unless they were being sneaky, like cloaks or other sensor confusing tricks. In DSC they usually don't see the ships in time for the person spotting them on sensors to even finish announcing their arrival.

    Weapons range is another major difference, in TOS the average combat range was about 40,000km and in TNG it was stated that photon torpedoes have safeties to keep them from arming until they are beyond 10,000km from the firing ship. They would often open fire at ranges of 100,000km or more, and Enterprise was able to bullseye a one-meter tall robot with a photon torpedo at 90,000km while it was getting severely slammed around by fire from Nomad. DSC ships on the other hand seem to have extreme difficulty hitting an enemy ship at around 40,000 FEET with anything and often resort to a ship-to-ship equivalent of "spray and pray" weapons fire.

    And no, I am not a "Discovery hater", and I am not mad that they did not just copy the TOS Enterprise in exacting detail like Cawley did. I actually like the show as a generic sci-fi one (or at least the first two seasons anyway), I just think they would have been more credible had they actually updated the TOS designs rather than starting from The Undiscovered Country.

    And ten years is not enough time to reasonably explain how it was Kirk learned combat at warp at the academy in the 2250's, for that warp combat to be long standing doctrine, and in general not enough time to explain the vast improvements in weapons targeting, sensor, and propulsion systems between DSC season two and TOS.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    I'm not going to get into the "art deco vs whatever" debate because that still goes over my head, and honestly don't see why that's relevant...

    The viewscreen debate... if it has a HUD overlay already... wouldn't it make sense that they can also overlay more information over it so that its basically no different than a "traditional" viewscreen? Just because its being prejected onto a transparant material vs an opaque one really doesn't matter does it? The viewscreen is STILL relaying data from the sensors. The material its being displayed on really doesn't matter. And they can polarize it so that you don't get the glare from lightsources. And structural integrity... its most likely the same material as all the other viewports on the ship.

    How often have we seen "Warp Combat" as portrayed in TOS outside of TOS? Honestly as far as I can recall... we don't. Most of the combat at warp seemed to lack any maneuvering because ships were trying to knock each other out of warp. And most of the time they don't even fire Phasers at warp. Its all torpedos. Voyager blew a nacelle off the Equinox with torpedos, the Borg Cube used some kind of torpedo system to knock the Enterprise-D out of warp...

    And a lot of the other things the TOS Enterprise is "capable of" seems to disappear later on. Warp 14, ability to glass a planet, ship mounted phaser Stun setting...

    Honestly a lot of the "TOS had this when DSC didn't" arguments kinda fall apart a bit when compared to the rest of the franchise. TNG era was more consistant with technology and capabilities, which some of which was carried over into Enterprise, which again I believe was carried over into Discovery. TOS wasn't consistant with itself at times, saying the Enterprise could do this one episode but not the next. Which leads to splitting hairs on details that start getting to obscure levels at times.

    Trying to say the TOS Enterprise is a different kind of ship from the DSC Enterprise also kinda feels off to me. We haven't seen enough of her in action to really judge. Outside of retrofitting her shuttles and other things into combat support craft, she fought just as effectively as the TOS version. I can see the TOS Enterprise firing her phasers just like the DSC Enterprise no problem. And I can see the TOS Enterprise losing a chunk of her saucer section the same way because that was an armor piercing torpedo lodged into the hull, and a rather big one at that. So saying one has better protection than the other... I just don't see the argument.

    Weapon accuracy... I don't think that's an issue. The DSC Enterprise could bullseye things just as easily. However we must consider the circumstances. How many times did we see the TOS Enterprise in active combat against multiple enemies? And I mean everyone actively maneuvering or one side swarming the other. Nomad probably wasn't trying to hide its presence, or even trying to evade or disrupt a sensor lock. The dang thing was basically Godly after all. What did it care about a matter/antimatter warhead flying in from 90k? On the other hand a Klingon BoP is going to be actively attempting to evade to avoid getting shot.
    Until at least DS9, we didn't really see much in the way of active battles. Most ships just tanked everything thrown at them. However that is a product of available technology. The studio really had no choice but to show most combat encounters that way. As technology improved, so did the ability to show active battle scenes, such as those we started to see in DS9 during the Dominion War.

    With the consoles... touchscreens can be configured to a user's preferences, and Discovery has shown that they have a mix of touchscreens and physical controls as well. So if Uhura was using a touchscreen, she could have set it to her preferences, that way she could still manipulate something without looking because she knows where her hand is in relation to whats on her console. As for Sulu... I still feel that having something more than the box of jellybeans makes more sense for helm controls.

    One thing we have to remember is that TOS was the origin of everything we know. It was a product of the 1960s, and had to make up a lot of stuff. As the franchise grew, things had to change and the shows had to try and be more and more consistant. Some things weren't carried over. So IMO trying to put down things because they don't fully line up with TOS is a bit... weird, and kinda hair splitting on details. No one is right or wrong, but we still have to consider when things were made, and the limitations of those eras.
    And honestly the fact this is even being debated just shows how much we know and enjoy Star Trek. lol we're such nerds. ;)
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »

    Honestly a lot of the "TOS had this when DSC didn't" arguments kinda fall apart a bit when compared to the rest of the franchise. TNG era was more consistant with technology and capabilities, which some of which was carried over into Enterprise, which again I believe was carried over into Discovery. TOS wasn't consistant with itself at times, saying the Enterprise could do this one episode but not the next. Which leads to splitting hairs on details that start getting to obscure levels at times.

    I have only seen "DSC had this when TOS didn't" argument not the other way around with Discovery's extensive use of holographic technology and using replicators instead of food processors.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »

    Honestly a lot of the "TOS had this when DSC didn't" arguments kinda fall apart a bit when compared to the rest of the franchise. TNG era was more consistant with technology and capabilities, which some of which was carried over into Enterprise, which again I believe was carried over into Discovery. TOS wasn't consistant with itself at times, saying the Enterprise could do this one episode but not the next. Which leads to splitting hairs on details that start getting to obscure levels at times.

    I have only seen "DSC had this when TOS didn't" argument not the other way around with Discovery's extensive use of holographic technology and using replicators instead of food processors.
    TOS had those unlabeled jellybean buttons instead of the touchscreens we've come to take for granted here in the real world, as well as a smooth matte surface to every ship instead of the modern nubbly look. (In both cases it should be noted that the original appearances have been outpaced by reality in a case of The Aesthetics of Technology, so faithfully reproducing those appearances, or trying to make DSC appear even less advanced, would have made the show look positively silly to modern eyes.)
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    starkaos wrote: »
    I have only seen "DSC had this when TOS didn't" argument not the other way around with Discovery's extensive use of holographic technology and using replicators instead of food processors.

    What's the difference between a Replicator and food processors or synthesizers? Honestly I can't really see that much of a difference. For all we know its different names for the same technology. Its just how its presented that can be the thing people hang up on. Does it LOOK like what we saw in TOS, which was a little alcove that opened up for the person to grab their food, or like what we saw in TNG, where we saw it materialize in an open alcove? The main difference between the two really is that door. For all we know, TOS Food Processors or Synthesizers (Pretty sure they were called Synthesizers a couple times) are the precursor to TNG Replicators and do something similar, but we just can't see the process because of the door in the way.

    And then there's the whole "Warp Combat" thing from TOS that DSC didn't have, as mentioned above, along with other things that "Make TOS superior". Please note that I am not using that in a negative tone, I was using it as an example of the "TOS tech vs DSC tech" arguments in favor of TOS. And Jonsils is right. Our modern technology has outpaced how things looked in TOS. Hell... many things in TOS, and even TNG, have influenced pieces of modern, real technology. PADDs? Look at our Tablets. Older flip phones? TOS Communicators. Hell... they're even trying to make a tricorder! I think someone already made one that can take various readings. Could even argue that things like EMF Detectors Paranormal Investigators use were inspired by Tricorders.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,845 Arc User
    The difference is food synthesizers and protein resequencers only create food, and possibly drinks, and there's usually a small number of preprogrammed combinations you can select - replicators create anything that actually CAN be created by their matrix and you can easily add new foods, drinks and whatever else you want after the fact to your own personal replicator.

    Basically, food synthesizers are a more advanced version of protein resequencers and replicators are a more advanced version of food synthesizers, but are simultaneously an entirely different beast altogether.​​
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »

    Honestly a lot of the "TOS had this when DSC didn't" arguments kinda fall apart a bit when compared to the rest of the franchise. TNG era was more consistant with technology and capabilities, which some of which was carried over into Enterprise, which again I believe was carried over into Discovery. TOS wasn't consistant with itself at times, saying the Enterprise could do this one episode but not the next. Which leads to splitting hairs on details that start getting to obscure levels at times.

    I have only seen "DSC had this when TOS didn't" argument not the other way around with Discovery's extensive use of holographic technology and using replicators instead of food processors.
    TOS had those unlabeled jellybean buttons instead of the touchscreens we've come to take for granted here in the real world, as well as a smooth matte surface to every ship instead of the modern nubbly look. (In both cases it should be noted that the original appearances have been outpaced by reality in a case of The Aesthetics of Technology, so faithfully reproducing those appearances, or trying to make DSC appear even less advanced, would have made the show look positively silly to modern eyes.)

    The issue is not about the aesthetics of technology, but of technology. There was no mention of holographic technology in TOS, but DSC is full of holographic technology. Enterprise kept its technology mostly consistent with what was expected in the 22nd Century, but updated its aesthetics. Discovery did whatever they thought looked cool and then had to come up with some convoluted explanation why TOS didn't have it. It works extremely well in the 32nd Century, but not 10 years before TOS.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    starkaos wrote: »
    The issue is not about the aesthetics of technology, but of technology. There was no mention of holographic technology in TOS, but DSC is full of holographic technology. Enterprise kept its technology mostly consistent with what was expected in the 22nd Century, but updated its aesthetics. Discovery did whatever they thought looked cool and then had to come up with some convoluted explanation why TOS didn't have it. It works extremely well in the 32nd Century, but not 10 years before TOS.

    Counter point: The Discovery herself was a state of the art, cutting edge science ship involved in basically black ops research, while Enterprise was already at least 10 years old by the time they met up. In TOS we never saw anything but the Connie for Starfleet. Even when we ran into other Fed ships, they were Connies. So does that mean that Discovery is in the wrong for showing more than just Connies?

    The Holodeck is easily explained away since they never used it for anything other than an interactive shooting range. It was never used for recreation. Holographic interface displays would be relatively easy, especially since for the most part they were projecting data or wireframes. The Holographic Communications was already explained away as Pike ordered that system ripped out of Enterprise after she was disabled at the start of season 2, and considering HOW much damage was done to Enterprise, and how it was exploited by Control, that order could have been extended fleet wide.

    The Spore Drive is no different than all the other experimental technologies we've seen over the years, like Genesis, the Phase Cloak, and even the Transwarp Drive. Other than the Transwarp Drive, they all worked, but were never heard of again.
    • Genesis could be weaponized, and the Genesis Planet, despite being used on something it was not intended to be, was unstable and blew up.
    • The Phase Cloak, while revolutionary, was illegal.
    • The Spore Drive works, but requires either a Tartegrade or Genetic Manipulation to function properly, and thus is in a gray area with Federation Law.
    • Excelsior's Transwarp Drive just failed, probably because Scotty had a field day with the plumbing, but apparently helped to rewrite the Warp Scale to something more consistant.
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