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Ten Forward Weekly 2/24/21

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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    Numbers have shown that a lot more people like the new trek then don't

    This statement feels absurd and suspicious on the surface, to make a claim in either direction. Where are these numbers? Was there a poll? What is the methodology behind these numbers? I'm sure there is context missing here, but it is a crazy statement to make in any case, again in either direction.

    My guess would be that his statement was based on the percentage of players that make and play Disco characters, Disco ship sales numbers, etc.

    Yes, that's my guess as well, but that makes the statement a complete non-sequitur.

    I made a Disco char to see what they did with it, not because I like ST:D. Any Disco ships I have are almost all for the traits, none of them are because I liked what they did in the show or because I like the style. They are hideous, and I've never even seen ST:D.

    If this is how they are interpreting their metrics and data it makes me very concerned that they don't have a clue what they are looking at.

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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
    JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.

    #TASforSTO


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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,131 Arc User
    edited February 25
    Any Disco ships I have are almost all for the traits, none of them are because I liked what they did in the show or because I like the style.

    Plenty of players have proven that they in fact very much *do* like the DIS-ships in STO, at least quite a few of them are fairly popular.

    Constitution/D7 MW FD-carriers? Winners by default, since they mostly kept their iconic original design. Mostly.

    Gagarin is popular too. Qugh, kinda. Crossfield in its various forms has grown on people, too.

    There are some more examples, but you get the idea.



    And since DIS/PIC/LD are the most recent outings of Trek, of course they are looking at those a lot; Going forward in STO means moving with recent stuff afterall. Otherwise it'd be forever yesterday.
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 891 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    eh what? id like to know how this makes it easier.
    It used to be hard to justify making Klingon or Romulan ships since the vats majority of the playerbase played only Federation.

    By making all ships cross faction, and thus, allowing Fed characters to play Klingon and Romulan ships, it opens up a much wider base to buy said ships.

    They hope that Rom and KDF ships will sell more now, so they can justify making more.

    hope...key word. sorry, but unless you have missed the past few years on this forum, you would know that those who are ROM players dont care much for FED ships. they play ROM for a reason. all this really means is more FED ships, KDF and ROM be dammed. however, i will side with you and give them a year to produce new faction ships for those two vs FED. but my bet is they wont as compared to FED ships.

    Well from what I've read it's not about ROM or KDF players buying FED ships but the other way around, after all if FED players buy ROM or KDF ships then there's more justification to make those isn't there?

    And I seriously doubt majority of FED players are fanatics who'd only ever buy FED ships, since that's what you're obviously implying.

    FED captains have been able to fly Romulan ships for a couple years now, but it doesn't seem to me that we have seen an increase in the number of Romulan ships being released. Anyone with the inclination want to run the numbers?
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    Any Disco ships I have are almost all for the traits, none of them are because I liked what they did in the show or because I like the style.

    Plenty of players have proven that they in fact very much *do* like the DIS-ships in STO, at least quite a few of them are fairly popular.

    Constitution/D7 MW FD-carriers? Winners by default, since they mostly kept their iconic original design. Mostly.

    Gagarin is popular too. Qugh, kinda. Crossfield in its various forms has grown on people, too.

    There are some more examples, but you get the idea.



    And since DIS/PIC/LD are the most recent outings of Trek, of course they are looking at those a lot; Going forward in STO means moving with recent stuff afterall. Otherwise it'd be forever yesterday.

    and thats why the statement in, and of itself, is bizarre. of course the "numbers" are going to show that since, as you say, thats all there is on tv now for trek. one has to look for older trek anymore, so many dont know about it.

    that doesnt mean the OS series or TNG etc, are any less important. time shifts, we get it, but comments like that are just...well nvm.
    meh

  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,131 Arc User
    edited February 25
    and thats why the statement in, and of itself, is bizarre. of course the "numbers" are going to show that since, as you say, thats all there is on tv now for trek. one has to look for older trek anymore, so many dont know about it.

    Not sure what you're trying to say.

    If you watch one or two episodes of DIS on netflix for example, chances are netflix will push the older Trek shows right into your "you might also like"-suggestions.

    And regarding STO, small stuff like some obscure one-episode alien ship aside, there aren't that many things of "old Trek" that aren't already in STO in some fashion. I could point at the other vulcan ship-type from ENT, the alien shuttle from 'The Race' and the Merchantman from STIII rightaway, but were those ships all that important?

    And especially the smaller things keep sneaking in, like the ENT-phase-pistols into the lobi-store.


    Most that's left to do with the older stuff, is basically updating it like they keep doing with ship-models all the time, and when not there, hopefully adding a neat T6-version soon (I still want T6 Nova, T6 Olympic and T6 Oberth!).
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    Any Disco ships I have are almost all for the traits, none of them are because I liked what they did in the show or because I like the style.

    Plenty of players have proven that they in fact very much *do* like the DIS-ships in STO, at least quite a few of them are fairly popular.

    Constitution/D7 MW FD-carriers? Winners by default, since they mostly kept their iconic original design. Mostly.

    Gagarin is popular too. Qugh, kinda. Crossfield in its various forms has grown on people, too.

    There are some more examples, but you get the idea.



    And since DIS/PIC/LD are the most recent outings of Trek, of course they are looking at those a lot; Going forward in STO means moving with recent stuff afterall. Otherwise it'd be forever yesterday.

    I'm not saying there aren't fans of these ships or the show. I'm questioning the methodology of deciding who is a fan and who isn't. I agree, there are some ships that look good from ST:D, the Discoprise, the modified Defiant, the D7, but those are box ships.

    But as you bring up popular ships, you can't say they are popular because they are from ST:D, or for their aesthetics, or just for their mechanics, like the Miracle Worker seating for the hideous Qugh, or even just the traits they offer.

    There's also a total lack of aesthetic options. Would you prefer a Gagarin in a sleeker, rounder style from TOS, TMP, or TNG? Well you can't have that. You don't get that choice. How many more people would fly or buy those ships with the more classic lines of the older series? We can't know.

    So my bottom line is not whether people like or don't like NuTrek, its the fact that we just can't tell, not in STO. It doesn't seem reasonable to make any assumption whatsoever.
  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 1,957 Arc User
    and thats why the statement in, and of itself, is bizarre. of course the "numbers" are going to show that since, as you say, thats all there is on tv now for trek. one has to look for older trek anymore, so many dont know about it.

    Not sure what you're trying to say.

    If you watch one or two episodes of DIS on netflix for example, chances are netflix will push the older Trek shows right into your "you might also like"-suggestions.

    And regarding STO, small stuff like some obscure one-episode alien ship aside, there aren't that many things of "old Trek" that aren't already in STO in some fashion.

    And especially the smaller things keep sneaking in, like the ENT-phase-pistols into the lobi-store.


    Most that's left to do with the older stuff, is basically updating it like they keep doing with ship-models all the time, and when not there, hopefully adding a neat T6-version soon (I still want T6 Nova, T6 Olympic and T6 Oberth!).

    maybe netflix would, doesnt mean most people nowadays would watch it, given technology and such, not only for the actual filming and effects, but as a whole. you get a younger crowd to watch OS and they cant handle it. they mock the acting, the visuals etc. but its understood to a degree and i cant blame them for it. its like using a pay phone...wtf? most newer gens dont even know what that is. and why pay for it when you have a cell phone. :)

    people have asked to have more OS stuff, let us use say k13 as our ESD...and other things people have asked for. hell, they had several missions they removed from the lineup that were more OS geared, but BAM!, gone. havent been back since.

    in other words, i get why they wont do older trek anymore, and its money.
    meh

  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,131 Arc User
    So my bottom line is not whether people like or don't like NuTrek, its the fact that we just can't tell, not in STO. It doesn't seem reasonable to make any assumption whatsoever.

    I see where you're coming from, but the assumptions are based on numbers. Not just sales, but also players using ship X when logged in for the most part etcetera.

    Even though vocal minorities keep hating on DIS-shipdesigns, there were also a lot of people who WANTED all those klingon ships (even or especially the Qugh) in STO, too when the first batch of DIS-ships was added.

    The DIS-Constitution is also an example how it's not just the specs but players just liking the ship itself (okay, going wrong with a Constitution is really, really hard). The legendary pack proved that a lot of players really also like the DIS-rendition's visuals (as the spec was swapped to temporal on that version).

  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    garaffe wrote: »
    This is such TRIBBLE nonsense. Am I the only one sick of the Devs telling me what I need to see in combat?

    You are not alone. I simply find it strains credibility for Cryptic to say they are playing their own game. The majority of VFX - regardless of space or ground - are over saturated, overwhelming and too intrusive in my opinion. I just cannot see how they are unable to see that.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,131 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    garaffe wrote: »
    This is such TRIBBLE nonsense. Am I the only one sick of the Devs telling me what I need to see in combat?

    You are not alone. I simply find it strains credibility for Cryptic to say they are playing their own game. The majority of VFX - regardless of space or ground - are over saturated, overwhelming and too intrusive in my opinion. I just cannot see how they are unable to see that.

    What did you post? I can't see what you wrote after I lit my beacon of Kahless and activated plasma-storm/Gravity Well/all the mandatory science-BOff-powers at once!
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    So my bottom line is not whether people like or don't like NuTrek, its the fact that we just can't tell, not in STO. It doesn't seem reasonable to make any assumption whatsoever.

    I see where you're coming from, but the assumptions are based on numbers. Not just sales, but also players using ship X when logged in for the most part etcetera.

    Even though vocal minorities keep hating on DIS-shipdesigns, there were also a lot of people who WANTED all those klingon ships (even or especially the Qugh) in STO, too when the first batch of DIS-ships was added.

    The DIS-Constitution is also an example how it's not just the specs but players just liking the ship itself (okay, going wrong with a Constitution is really, really hard). The legendary pack proved that a lot of players really also like the DIS-rendition's visuals (as the spec was swapped to temporal on that version).

    Again, I have no doubt there are numbers saying the ships are popular, but we just don't know why, and pretending we do is silly.

    It is like seeing people buying ice cream and then saying, "Wow, people must really like winter!"
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    What did you post? I can't see what you wrote after I lit my beacon of Kahless and activated plasma-storm/Gravity Well/all the mandatory science-BOff-powers at once!

    ^ Thread winner!

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 25
    This statement feels absurd and suspicious on the surface, to make a claim in either direction. Where are these numbers? Was there a poll? What is the methodology behind these numbers? I'm sure there is context missing here, but it is a crazy statement to make in any case, again in either direction.

    As a rule I never trust numbers that are claimed, but not shown. As teachers/professors always said: Show your work.


    To guess, I'd suspect they were basing this claim on 'metrics' meaning purchases of ST:D or ST:P ships which has nothing to do with liking the shows, nor even the content in game. I mean, personally, I have most of the ST:D derivative ships, but I don't fly any of them, and find them various degrees of ugly, but some of the traits are good. I've still never seen the show itself so if I'm counted in that number either way, its flat out wrong.

    And if that's how they are coming up with that statement, it implies serious flaws in how they use their metrics as well, because they would be making a claim on something they have literally no information for, ignoring all the other possible reasons people buy those ships.
    The statement was made because someone started a "REEE DISCOVERY IS BAD AND NO ONE LIKES IT!" argument in the chat.

    Outside of STO, Discovery has frequently been one of the most streamed shows in not only places like the United States, and U.K., but even one of the most streamed shows in the world.

    In STO, Cryptic has mentioned several times over the last two years that when they started doing the Discovery related content they saw an even greater influx of new players then compared to Victory is Life, which itself was breaking records for how many new players it drew in.

    The comment has nothing to do with sales of ships, or anything similar. The DSC content is just, by far, the most popular content they have ever done.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    Not sure anyone could go through all uniform pieces to ensure they all have the same color pallet due to how many there are
    Which is why it should have already been done in the first place.
    Asked about longer, like 60-90 minute long dungeon like experiences. That isn't what modern MMO markets want. People want shorter experiences they can just come in and do. 20 person, hour long, TFO, would take like 12 weeks of full time work.
    I really hope it was a reply to a question, because if they just NOW figured that out...
    Likely to do more TFOs based on episodes like Battle at the Binary Stars/Synth Wave
    BaTBS: constantly mocked for the time gates that makes T'Kuvma's boasts utterly ridiculous as you're trashing entire fleets with your 4 teammates.
    SW: mocked first due to have bugged transports making it unwinnable, then mocked for more time gates.

    Higher-ups seeing the feedback: "Let's do more of these!"
    Tzenkethi BOFF unlikely due to size/animation rig. Have talked about using the tech used in Quark's Lucky Seven to make a BOFF that only has access to specific powers designed for it.
    Once again, a less difficult solution could be to keep the animations and not show the equipped weapons, but change the FX of the shots and abilities.
    Jessie would like to take a crack at reworking crafting specialization manuals for BOFFs to be less of a hassle
    Dividing the tab into sub tabs to easily access, science, intel, etc. instead of having a massive list would be a great start.
    Its technically possible to use nemesis like tech to make a MU version of you
    It's the MU. If the Mirror alternate of the DSC captain died with a spoon, the others probably died trying to steal a candy from a baby, kick a puppy, open a pickle jar, or some ridiculous "feats" like that.
    Expansions are unlikely at this point
    ""Seasons" on the other hand..."
    New storyline they are doing could possibly tie into Enterprise based on the content of some episodes of ENT
    "You'll have to impersonate Archer... during the "A Night In Sickbay" events!"
    Unlikely to see procedurally generated patrols
    Good, I always dread to see Hirogen and Breen show up during the Ninth Rule.
    Small ship content might happen, but unlikely due to not being fun/people not liking it.
    Gee, I wonder why? Is it because of the small number of the missions featuring them? Or the fact they're all tedious as Gre'thor, either because they're either 75% going from point A to point B with nothing happening, or 75% fighting a lots of enemies ganging up on your easy-to-blow up shuttle?
    #TASforSTO
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 25
    Once again, a less difficult solution could be to keep the animations and not show the equipped weapons, but change the FX of the shots and abilities.
    They actually briefly discussed this and that isn't how it works. If they gave a Tzenkethi BOFF those abilities they would have to redo all the animations for them since the Tzenkethi rig can't do the like fist raise animation for like the rally cry kit power, and such for spec abilities and the like.

    This is why, if they ever did one, it would have to have its own, baked in, set of powers you couldn't change, custom made for that BOFF.
    I really hope it was a reply to a question, because if they just NOW figured that out...
    It was, Kael posed the hypothetical since someone brought it up in chat. This was in a situation for reusing the New Romulus map for like a 20 man, hour long, mega TFO akin to a dungeon or raid. It would take longer if they had to make a wholly new map for it.
    Dividing the tab into sub tabs to easily access, science, intel, etc. instead of having a massive list would be a great start.
    His comment was more about needing to craft one of each lower ranked skill to make the spec manual, which is what Kael originally complained about that started the conversation.
    ""Seasons" on the other hand..."
    Not sure what this comment means, but we have been getting seasons...

    Also, Cryptic has stated previously that they have switched to doing more "Expansions over time". The Age/Mirror/Rise of Discovery udpate trilogy being the first. Had they made a Discovery expansion, that is what you would have gotten. The second is the more recent Year of Klingon update series.
    Good, I always dread to see Hirogen and Breen show up during the Ninth Rule.
    That has nothing to do with procedrual generation.
    BaTBS: constantly mocked for the time gates that makes T'Kuvma's boasts utterly ridiculous as you're trashing entire fleets with your 4 teammates.
    SW: mocked first due to have bugged transports making it unwinnable, then mocked for more time gates.

    Higher-ups seeing the feedback: "Let's do more of these!"
    No developer takes complaints about time gates seriously.

    The only situation that would lack a time gate of some sort is a situation where the only objective is to kill things as fast as possible, and thats poor game design. And people advocating for that just want to be able to cheese things with no effort.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    edited February 25
    They actually briefly discussed this and that isn't how it works. If they gave a Tzenkethi BOFF those abilities they would have to redo all the animations for them since the Tzenkethi rig can't do the like fist raise animation for like the rally cry kit power, and such.

    This is why, if they ever did one, it would have to have its own, baked in, set of powers you couldn't change, custom made for that BOFF.
    More than half of the time, I don't even get the "opening the doors of the Boreth monastery" animation, so why would not raising a fist for an animation even be a concern if the power itself works? Just give them the "turning berserk" or "summoning the enemy-pulling-drone" body animation for abilities like that and you're set.
    #TASforSTO
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 25
    More than half of the time, I don't even get the "opening the doors of the Boreth monastery" animation, so why would not raising a fist for an animation even be a concern if the power itself works? Just give them the "turning berserk" or "summoning the enemy-pulling-drone" body animation for abilities like that and you're set.
    Which would require going through every single skill/power available to BOFFs, copying that data, creating a new versions of that skill or power just for the Tzenkethi BOFF, so the changes don't affect the other BOFF's use of those powers, and changing the animations attached to said skill or power to already existing Tzenkethi animations.

    Which would be changing the animations for every single skill/power in the game that BOFFs can use.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    More than half of the time, I don't even get the "opening the doors of the Boreth monastery" animation, so why would not raising a fist for an animation even be a concern if the power itself works? Just give them the "turning berserk" or "summoning the enemy-pulling-drone" body animation for abilities like that and you're set.
    Which would require going through every single skill/power available to BOFFs, copying that data, creating a new versions of that skill or power just for the Tzenkethi BOFF, so the changes don't affect the other BOFF's use of those powers, and changing the animations attached to said skill or power to already existing Tzenkethi animations.

    Which would be changing the animations for every single skill/power in the game that BOFFs can use.
    Then just use no unique animations and let the ability happen.

    I just disguised myself as an Horta, a Bluegill warrior, an Undine, a Warrigul, thanks to the Section 31 Faulty disguise and managed to use all the abilities I could use without issues.
    Heck, I even saw my tricorder and gambling device show up at the "hand" of most of them (with the exception of the Undine where they showed up about a meter to its left in the air for some reason). I even saw my weapon appear in the second it took before the disguise wore off due to be in "combat". None had the tricorder, weapon and device properly aligned, obviously, but the abilities still worked.
    #TASforSTO
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 25
    Then just use no unique animations and let the ability happen.

    I just disguised myself as an Horta, a Bluegill warrior, an Undine, a Warrigul, thanks to the Section 31 Faulty disguise and managed to use all the abilities I could use without issues.
    Heck, I even saw my tricorder and gambling device show up at the "hand" of most of them (with the exception of the Undine where they showed up about a meter to its left in the air for some reason). I even saw my weapon appear in the second it took before the disguise wore off due to be in "combat". None had the tricorder, weapon and device properly aligned, obviously, but the abilities still worked.
    I've seen this exact same argument made in every game that lets you transform into something using similar methods. And no developer I've seen considers it a valid argument.

    That they let you get away with being unable to see animations, or having misaligned animations, for joke/funny items like the Section 31 Faulty Disguise, or when Q transforms you into things, don't make it valid to do so in other parts of the game that aren't meant to be jokes.

    In fact, Kael addressed this himself on Reddit
    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/lhx3f1/recent_posts_from_kael_and_geko_for_those_that/gn4cdqt/?context=3
    WabbitCZEN
    Given what Geko has said about new playable toons, what about Tzenkethi? Model already exists in game. Animations, kits, different appearances, uniforms, and much more. Sliders are orobably the one thing they don't have at the moment. They could easily be made an option for the Fed side, given Neth Par's defection. No KDF options obviously, given how they feel about Martok. Ships are already in game, too. And people would absolutely love to play as a new toon. Why not add them as a playable character?
    ambassadorkael
    I see the confusion: Bridge Officers have a specific set of animations, based on what gear or abilities you equip them with. Because some of our dream Boffs, like Tzenkethi or Horta, are on different skeletons, they would not be able to perform those animations. So we're need to give out Boffs who have a set, un-customizable set of abilities and weapons (which we've heavily considered!).
    Amezuki
    Why is it necessary to put that much work into one-off boffs, or add needless restrictions to what we can equip on them? If the boff is already going to be lack customization, does it really matter whether they actually display the weapon I've equipped on them, or perform the precisely correct animation for whatever power they're triggering?

    Because there is clearly already functionality in the game--used in various places--for displaying a different 3D model on an actor, one that isn't set up to support their currently-equipped weapons or powers. If an action occurs that would normally play an animation sequence the model doesn't support--e.g. someone deploys a party amplifier and forces the boff to dance--the simplest fail state would be to just not play an animation at all.
    ambassadorkael
    "Not play an animation at all," would look soooo janky, though. The Tzenkethi would literally stand still while an effect or shot came out of them. :)
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,691 Arc User
    "Not play an animation at all," would look soooo janky, though. The Tzenkethi would literally stand still while an effect or shot came out of them. :)

    How could anyone tell what looks "janky" or not when their Captain and BOFFs are buried under so many layers of over saturated VFX and visual vomit?

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 3,632 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    "Not play an animation at all," would look soooo janky, though. The Tzenkethi would literally stand still while an effect or shot came out of them. :)

    How could anyone tell what looks "janky" or not when their Captain and BOFFs are buried under so many layers of over saturated VFX and visual vomit?
    Also, observing BOffs in combat shows that worrying about animations is a bit too late now.
    I've recently assigned the Dukan'Rex hologram to my away team and wanted to see how he fared alone while setting the other BOffs on passive mode and it was so hilarious to observe him spending most of his time in the "bent over weapon-less" pose Leeta does before beaming off the ENT-J, especially when casting his short-cooldown abilities, and rolling while barely firing his MACO rifle.

    Many character animations in the game don't activate, even if there is nothing special happening around (like those "manually opening doors" ones, once again). And BOffs virtually CAN'T stand still. In combat, you'll always see them strafe, roll, bump into walls, rush and spam their abilities whenever they get the chance, whether they should or not. Casting an ability is also a good way to see them unequip their weapon for a while before they realize that yes, they do have it and by then, they can cast another ability and unequip it.
    #TASforSTO
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,685 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    garaffe wrote: »
    This is such TRIBBLE nonsense. Am I the only one sick of the Devs telling me what I need to see in combat?

    You are not alone. I simply find it strains credibility for Cryptic to say they are playing their own game. The majority of VFX - regardless of space or ground - are over saturated, overwhelming and too intrusive in my opinion. I just cannot see how they are unable to see that.

    They play the game yes - but do the majority of them makes similar builds to what the players do? -- A few perhaps; but the majority of Cryptic no. (And I definitely lump lead designer Al Rivera into the latter majority. He's the one that okays most of this TRIBBLE; and I doubt he's ever realty bother to check what a colorful MESS they are when you combine them in a real synergistic DPS heavy ship build.)

    And to be fair, no I don't do those type of builds myself 9it's not anything I really strive for as 30K+ can decimate any content well enough in this game - but plenty in my Fleet are DPS chasers and yes, when those effects combine, it's a blinding mess.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,175 Arc User
    This statement feels absurd and suspicious on the surface, to make a claim in either direction. Where are these numbers? Was there a poll? What is the methodology behind these numbers? I'm sure there is context missing here, but it is a crazy statement to make in any case, again in either direction.

    As a rule I never trust numbers that are claimed, but not shown. As teachers/professors always said: Show your work.


    To guess, I'd suspect they were basing this claim on 'metrics' meaning purchases of ST:D or ST:P ships which has nothing to do with liking the shows, nor even the content in game. I mean, personally, I have most of the ST:D derivative ships, but I don't fly any of them, and find them various degrees of ugly, but some of the traits are good. I've still never seen the show itself so if I'm counted in that number either way, its flat out wrong.

    And if that's how they are coming up with that statement, it implies serious flaws in how they use their metrics as well, because they would be making a claim on something they have literally no information for, ignoring all the other possible reasons people buy those ships.
    The statement was made because someone started a "REEE DISCOVERY IS BAD AND NO ONE LIKES IT!" argument in the chat.

    Outside of STO, Discovery has frequently been one of the most streamed shows in not only places like the United States, and U.K., but even one of the most streamed shows in the world.

    In STO, Cryptic has mentioned several times over the last two years that when they started doing the Discovery related content they saw an even greater influx of new players then compared to Victory is Life, which itself was breaking records for how many new players it drew in.

    The comment has nothing to do with sales of ships, or anything similar. The DSC content is just, by far, the most popular content they have ever done.

    And Delta Rising was loved by the players. I see no numbers, just claims. And even if they are true claims, they still don't add up to the conclusion that more people like ST:D than not. It remains a non-sequitur, and that is what concerns me most.
  • captaincelestialcaptaincelestial Member Posts: 1,702 Arc User

    [*] Temporal Recruit will probably be rerun sometime this year, but wont be the first rerun this year

    [*] Unlikely to do a Terran/Tal Shiar specific campaign because some people say they want to play evil characters, but most people don't. Hisotrically an issue with City of Villains also, few people bought it/played it. Same thing with Klingons, even with all the recent updates there is a slice of people playing them, but not a large slice. Also goes against the theme of Star Trek. Might not sit well with CBS.Same issue with the Decypher RPG game, CBS didn't like a MU expansion book.

    [*] Its technically possible to use nemesis like tech to make a MU version of you

    [*] Might get Enterprise content at some point
    [*] New storyline they are doing could possibly tie into Enterprise based on the content of some episodes of ENT

    [*] Are aware of how many people want Discovery Androians and Saurians, might be this year if they have time

    [*] Exploration wont come back in the way they was before, old star cluster system had so much data it added multiple days for new builds to process/was also bad content. Questioned how much exploration do we actually see in Star Trek? Exploration is typically just the hook to get people somewhere where something interesting happens for the episode. Charting gaseous anomaly would just be press F, and isn't fun. Jeremy was in on the chat saying every episode of Star trek was an interruption of true exploration. People expect stakes in story, which true exploration doesn't have.

    [*] Unlikely to see a new mega bundle for just one faction, besides maybe Federation, due to playerbase reasons
    [*] Cross faction ship flying was done to make creating Klingon and Romulan ships easier


    [/list]

    [*] Thing about the Delta Recruit, while it's older, it covers the most factions. It'll be easier to replay that than it would be to start from scratch.

    It would be great if Gamma Recruit could make a rerun, but I hope they are able to expand it to enable Player Vorta an unlock after you've played it first time around as a Jem'Hadar as was suggested in an earlier Ten Foward Weekly. Mind you, this was before Rene Auberjonois had passed away. A work around could be done, if Weyoun and/or Loriss ends up taking the Vorta character aside to cover content that would have been exclusively Jem'Hadar specific briefing/VO work. Would be a great chance to play off the rivalry between the two senior Vorta clones.

    [*] If they do a MU campaign, it could be with 'Smiley' O'Brien leading a renegade (aka hero) faction.
    [*] If they do a Nemesis tech thing, sort of like in Champions Online (no idea that system's still around in CO), I hope we'll be able to tweak what the MU version of our characters would look like. Such as goatees ;) Would be nice if we could finally get the MU Captain Kirk's sleeveless tunic as either an unlockable or purchasable costume item. I'd like to see a cut scene of our characters walking in front of what looks like a mirror, looking at our character's MU counterpart believing the other one is a twisted reflection, only to have the other step through the doorway in the big reveal. *dun, dun, duuuun!*

    [*] Please, for all that is good in the STO multiverse, do not, I repeat DO NOT, do not have our characters engaging a Holodeck simulation of the NX-01. While it may be easier to do it this way, it's already been contentiously done before with the last episode of the series.

    [*]With the addition of Disco Andorians and Saurians, I hope that there's a proper Recruitment event for Disco characters, if not a new cross-faction Recruitment event so the Disco Klingons can be involved (I could be wrong, but it's probably easier to do the Recruitment events with entire factions rather than one specific species in a faction).

    [*] I'd like to see a story arc that deals with Exploration (as the means to get interrupted by shenanigans). Perhaps post-Klingon Civil War, the Alliance tries to build up cross-faction relations by inviting the Klingons on exploration missions. At first the Klingons believe this is a tedious and belittling make-work program, but with all of the adventures (that is typical of Starfleet missons) that inevitably comes our way, the KDF gets to enjoy 'exploration' as it truly is, a test of character and a way to even greater glory!

    [*] Considering Cross-Faction ship flying, I can't see why there couldn't be a mega bundle with Klingon ships, after all, the larger Starfleet base would now be able to use the ships in a Klingon Mega Bundle.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    [*] If they do a Nemesis tech thing, sort of like in Champions Online (no idea that system's still around in CO), I hope we'll be able to tweak what the MU version of our characters would look like. Such as goatees ;) Would be nice if we could finally get the MU Captain Kirk's sleeveless tunic as either an unlockable or purchasable costume item. I'd like to see a cut scene of our characters walking in front of what looks like a mirror, looking at our character's MU counterpart believing the other one is a twisted reflection, only to have the other step through the doorway in the big reveal. *dun, dun, duuuun!*
    OI! I can't put a gotee on my Mirror Counterpart because she's female!
    Guess I'll settle for a different hairstyle and maybe a scar.
    [*] I'd like to see a story arc that deals with Exploration (as the means to get interrupted by shenanigans). Perhaps post-Klingon Civil War, the Alliance tries to build up cross-faction relations by inviting the Klingons on exploration missions. At first the Klingons believe this is a tedious and belittling make-work program, but with all of the adventures (that is typical of Starfleet missons) that inevitably comes our way, the KDF gets to enjoy 'exploration' as it truly is, a test of character and a way to even greater glory!
    Technically we've already done the exploration getting interrupted by shenanigans. Its how we met the Lukari, and later how we found K-13 and evidence of Tzenkethi shenanigans.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 608 Arc User
    Technically we've already done the exploration getting interrupted by shenanigans. Its how we met the Lukari, and later how we found K-13 and evidence of Tzenkethi shenanigans.

    Exploration has always served as a backdrop to every Star Trek episode ever, the MacGuffin of the week to get the crew into trouble. It has never been the primary focus. So I'm not sure what exactly players are hoping to get out of an exploration focus. Sightseeing? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the opening of New Frontiers, but that was, as said, just the opening, the lead up to the real mission and episode content.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 9,019 Arc User
    edited February 26
    Exploration has always served as a backdrop to every Star Trek episode ever, the MacGuffin of the week to get the crew into trouble. It has never been the primary focus. So I'm not sure what exactly players are hoping to get out of an exploration focus. Sightseeing? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the opening of New Frontiers, but that was, as said, just the opening, the lead up to the real mission and episode content.
    BUT... BUT... THE INTROS OF TOS AND TNG TALK ABOUT EXPLORING SPACE! SO THAT'S THE POINT OF THE SHOWS!

    The thing with exploration is that its one of those "Fanisms", where people warp what the show was actually about into what they think it was about, and confuse the two.

    The happens a lot with Klingons in Star Trek also. Lots of people get really upset if you don't show Klingons to be ultra honorable warriors, barbecue that is what Klingons said they were throughout TNG and DS9.... despite the fact the whole point of "Klingon honor" was to serve as a juxtaposition on how utterly dishonorable they were, and it was even a major plot point in the last season of DS9 that Klingons had been dishonorable for ages.
  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 608 Arc User
    edited February 26
    Exploration has always served as a backdrop to every Star Trek episode ever, the MacGuffin of the week to get the crew into trouble. It has never been the primary focus. So I'm not sure what exactly players are hoping to get out of an exploration focus. Sightseeing? Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the opening of New Frontiers, but that was, as said, just the opening, the lead up to the real mission and episode content.
    BUT... BUT... THE INTROS OF TOS AND TNG TALK ABOUT EXPLORING SPACE! SO THAT'S THE POINT OF THE SHOWS!

    The thing with exploration is that its one of those "Fanisms", where people warp what the show was actually about into what they think it was about, and confuse the two.

    The happens a lot with Klingons in Star Trek also. Lots of people get really upset if you don't show Klingons to be ultra honorable warriors, barbecue that is what Klingons said they were throughout TNG and DS9.... despite the fact the whole point of "Klingon honor" was to serve as a juxtaposition on how utterly dishonorable they were, and it was even a major plot point in the last season of DS9 that Klingons had been dishonorable for ages.

    I think someone, at some point, said that the meaning of 'honor' to Klingons doesn't exactly mesh with the human meaning of the word. It's just closest word to approximate the Klingon ideology, which seems to be mostly about an absence of fear, the pursuit of battle, and glorifying death in combat. Superficially, it's within proximity of human 'honor' but it also leaves out other important aspects, too.
  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,131 Arc User
    I think someone, at some point, said that the meaning of 'honor' to Klingons doesn't exactly mesh with the human meaning of the word. It's just closest word to approximate the Klingon ideology, which seems to be mostly about an absence of fear, the pursuit of battle, and glorifying death in combat. Superficially, it's within proximity of human 'honor' but it also leaves out other important aspects, too.

    Nah, "honor" in klingon context is the same as "honor" in human context. In both cases, "honor" creates an excuse for either plain primitive behaviour, or for attacking without actual provocation.

  • revanindustriesrevanindustries Member Posts: 505 Arc User
    Klingon honor is as unachievable as any code of honor throughout feudal societies (chivalry, Bushido, etc). It is the impossible ideal that everyone strives to follow, perhaps even believe they do, but the concept is so nebulous and the realities of life so harsh that the struggle between what is right, honorable, and necessary never ends.

    But we are pretty off-topic now. Ground Patrols would be nice, would give my Fed Science character something to do.
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