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players not contributing in TFOs (ps4 only??)

sleepwalker#8777 sleepwalker Member Posts: 126 Arc User
something is REALY WRONG with the players these days.. and it is getting worse over time!
i mainly play advanced random TFOs (on ps4), and in 99% of all TFOs these days, there are people behaving very much like a******s..
eighter they go afk.. or they are not contributing to any of the goals, or optional goals..
i often have the feeling, that they even try to fk up optional goals on purpose. p.e. in undine assault they fly towards the boss (and destroy him in like 20 seconds) when there are already 5 of 6 errant rifts done! ..and if someone writes soemthing about that in the chat, they get called noob or they write some arrogant comments.
countless things like that, happening in nearly every advanced TFO..

it is possible, that those are just new players and dont know yet, what to do.. but i realy dont think so, since they play on advanced difficulty and very often do insane amounts of dps..

I DONT WANT TO PLAY WITH SUCH PEOPLE ANYMORE !!

this needs a fix of any kind..
i think, there should be a system in the background, counting contributes of players.. and if they p.e. dont go for optional targets on a kinda regular basis, they should not be allowed to play advanced, or elite, and should be restricted to normal TFOs..
i admit, that would be a pretty drastic solution, but it would work ;)
maybe someone can come up with a better solution.. but nevertheless, this cannot stay that way
«1345

Comments

  • eazzieeazzie Member Posts: 3,267 Arc User
    It doesn't matter the MMO you will always get those who prefer to reap the rewards than actually taking part. Sadly it is something we just have to put up with and let it go. If you don't like what someone is saying or said in chat put them on ignore. You can't place restrictions on what a player wishes to play. All in all it is something you just have to deal with. Don't let any anger you have spill into the game, just think ohh well.
  • sleepwalker#8777 sleepwalker Member Posts: 126 Arc User
    i was kinda relaxed, when this started to happend.. but this happends way to often these days.. basically in every single TFO.
    most other games give people options to handle bad behavior.. like kicking people from groups.
    p.e. in ESO people take group-play pretty serious, because they WILL get kicked if they just stand around ..or just leech the group.
    we should total at least have the option to kick such players from a tfo..
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,099 Arc User
    i was kinda relaxed, when this started to happend.. but this happends way to often these days.. basically in every single TFO.
    most other games give people options to handle bad behavior.. like kicking people from groups.
    p.e. in ESO people take group-play pretty serious, because they WILL get kicked if they just stand around ..or just leech the group.
    we should total at least have the option to kick such players from a tfo..

    We have talked about this time and time again.
    Unfortunately, there's no easy solution... and a kick feature would just encourage more trolls, instead of taking care of the few people that AFK in a queue.
    Comparing this game to ESO is not really conductive to anything, either, because there's need for cooperation and for different roles and classes in there, while STO doesn't really need anything of the sort unless you go for Elites.

    Also, and this is just my opinion of course: as long as the queue is successful, I can absolutely live with not getting this or that *optional* exactly because it's an optional. Yeah, you lose a bit of marks, but that's about it.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,223 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    Think for the most part the map design is responsible for the players behavior.

    We have very motivating maps like Infected or Hive space. They not only reflect the global progression curve of a player but also show how teamplay leads to better results.

    On the other hands we have very de motivating maps where it hardly matters if a team interacts at all. They auto win. So why should anybody do there a poo poo especially when additional mark rewards are pathetic?!

    I consider Undine assault to be one of the better maps. Good tasks, good payout, interaction required. The problem the op describes is understandable though. If I want as many marks I can get I want the optional. If I want to get with my 150 rtfo recruitment task through ASAP I would want to skip it in order to be done faster.

    Again there is no right or wrong player sided, just faulty map design making an optional last longer than the main tasks to fulfill. No surprise.

    Have all 6 errands spawn all at once right at the start and the problem would be solved cryptic. ;)
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  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,048 Arc User
    After all these years this happening, I'm still baffled by the idea of playing a game without playing the game to advance in a game that you are not playing.
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  • mattingly1mattingly1 Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    The sad thing is, I probably wouldn't even notice. The things can pretty much be solo'd.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,643 Arc User
    Bane of my life!!! Whilst players can and do recieve AFK bans, usually automatically, any reported AFK barely gets a look over. On Phantasy Star Online 2, AFK'ing can and does result in bans upto perma-ban for repeated offenders. What we have here is an exploit, plain and simple. Folk can simply set auto-fire to circumvent afk bans on maps where there are just mobs. I will report afk'ers regardless.

    What we need is a system-managed system that will detect input from a player, and if that player isn't taking part, it prompts a kick-vote. This would not be open to abuse as only the system could present the option. Don't know how this would be done on Console without disrupting play, but it can be done on PC. Cryptic needs to have actual GM's who can monitior these reports as well, once the pandemic subsides.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,328 Community Moderator
    As much as folks don't want to hear it, a kick feature solves alot 99% of this mess. When folks are kicked enough for their shenanigans they'll either get the hint and knock it off, or never get to play with anyone anymore. Either one works. Yeah there's the whole "but a kick feature would get abused" thing. As dark as this is going to sound, you're going to face some kind of abuse in an MMO regardless, the question is whether you want to be able to do anything about it or not. Status quo folks are able to abuse the TFO group and 4 other people in a run while they have no restitution. One person is allowed to abuse 4 other people with no consequences. At least with a kick system the other 4 have a means of kicking the abuser. Folks need to realize that automated systems are what we have now and on their own are NOT enough, Never have been, never will be. All it takes is them to figure out the thresholds of the automated systems and then you're right back to square one with the automated systems doing nothing. There's a reason that even Geordi didn't hand everything over to the computer in TNG to escape the Aceton Assimilator trap.

    There's a reason every other game on the planet has this feature, because it actually works even as crude as it is. As long as folks aren't serial AFKers or abusers themselves, 99% of the time you will never have to worry about a kick feature being used on you. While GMs can help with severe cases, they have better things to do than playing babysitter every single time a queue group goes south.
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  • keepcalmchiveonkeepcalmchiveon Member Posts: 4,140 Arc User
    do we really want to go down this road again? lol
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,065 Arc User
    something is REALY WRONG with the players these days.. and it is getting worse over time!
    i mainly play advanced random TFOs (on ps4), and in 99% of all TFOs these days, there are people behaving very much like a******s..
    eighter they go afk.. or they are not contributing to any of the goals, or optional goals..
    i often have the feeling, that they even try to fk up optional goals on purpose. p.e. in undine assault they fly towards the boss (and destroy him in like 20 seconds) when there are already 5 of 6 errant rifts done! ..and if someone writes soemthing about that in the chat, they get called noob or they write some arrogant comments.
    countless things like that, happening in nearly every advanced TFO..

    it is possible, that those are just new players and dont know yet, what to do.. but i realy dont think so, since they play on advanced difficulty and very often do insane amounts of dps..

    I DONT WANT TO PLAY WITH SUCH PEOPLE ANYMORE !!

    this needs a fix of any kind..
    i think, there should be a system in the background, counting contributes of players.. and if they p.e. dont go for optional targets on a kinda regular basis, they should not be allowed to play advanced, or elite, and should be restricted to normal TFOs..
    i admit, that would be a pretty drastic solution, but it would work ;)
    maybe someone can come up with a better solution.. but nevertheless, this cannot stay that way

    While I can certainly empathize, the fact is the problem is not with the behavior of others - it is your behavior. Rolling the dice and entering a TFO with random people and expecting them to play the way you want is simply not going to happen. If you want to avoid people going AFK, then team up with family, friends or other people you know. This solves your problem completely with zero development time required.

    As much as folks don't want to hear it, a kick feature solves alot 99% of this mess.

    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums. No thank you.

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  • tvirxtvirx Member Posts: 91 Arc User
    In my particular case I've essentially disabled all player chat, with the exception of fleet and friends (of which I have none). This allows me to experience random content in sterile bubble, which is just fine by me.

    I have far too much time and currency wrapped up into this game than for some random intarwebz person to be able to jeopardize that.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 55,670 Community Moderator
    edited February 2021
    tvirx wrote: »
    In my particular case I've essentially disabled all player chat, with the exception of fleet and friends (of which I have none). This allows me to experience random content in sterile bubble, which is just fine by me.

    I have far too much time and currency wrapped up into this game than for some random intarwebz person to be able to jeopardize that.

    Which in a way is also part of a problem in STO. Lack of Communication. It is incredably rare for me to see anyone communicate in TFOs, even in ones where a bit of planning or a "Hey I need some help over here" can actually make a difference.
    For example:
    • Assault on Terok Nor: Someone should call out that they're going to do the memory puzzle so that no one interferes with it.
    • Khitomer ground: Coordinating bringing down the shields can be done with just the in game audio cues, but would be most effecient to corrdinate by chat to make sure everyone is in place to nuke the targets.
    • Khitomer space: Since you have to split the team to cover both gates, it would make sense to call out if probes are getting away from someone, so someone else can fly in to help.

    But unfortunately its 99% silence and expectations of knowing what to do without any prompting. Occasionally you'll get some communication, but its a mixed bag of something that's actually helpful to occasional trolling to outright insulting a player for "not measuring up".

    But again... that is extremely rare to begin with. We barely even get a "GG" anymore. I see more action in ESD Zone Chat, and half the time that's a mess in itself!
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  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,099 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    As much as folks don't want to hear it, a kick feature solves alot 99% of this mess.

    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums. No thank you.

    Agreed.

    As @peterconnorfirst said, the problem OP's talking about is understandable and I also agree that it's in part the map design's fault, but the solution is not a kick features.
    Now, if that had been present from the start, things would be different but since it wasn't, implementing it now would just cause more grief.

    An alternative solution could be a system that check your contribution and, if it's zero or below a certain amount, you get no rewards, at all.
    But a system like that would cause unjust punishment, just as the automated AFK penalty does now.

    Again, there's no easy solution to this, except grin and bear it and doing your best, which is all anyone can ask of you.
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    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,737 Arc User
    Like many have already said there isn't really much that can be done. I suppose a kick feature could be implemented, but then instead of dealing with afk peeps you might be dealing with players kicking you at random just to trollolol.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,328 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    While I can certainly empathize, the fact is the problem is not with the behavior of others - it is your behavior. Rolling the dice and entering a TFO with random people and expecting them to play the way you want is simply not going to happen. If you want to avoid people going AFK, then team up with family, friends or other people you know. This solves your problem completely with zero development time required.
    No, it's not his fault at all save for possibly not expecting the worst from people as much as I hate to say that. Being a random TFO does not excuse people from pulling their own weight in a team, nor does it give them an excuse to fudge the run up for everyone else, nor should they have to queue exclusively with fleetmates and others because certain people want to grief in a run.

    When you join a random TFO, it's no longer about just you, but the entire team. When the actions of one person can harm the run of the rest of the team, those other 4 people have the right to be angry at the 5th person. One person is not so important that their playtime or their experience gets to trump the playtime and experience of 4 other people. When one guy isn't pulling his weight or is AFK, that run is essentially playing a man down, which is not fair to the other 4 people of the team. Even if they're able to clear the queue without the 5th guy, it's not fair to expect them to carry him through the run. THAT is true griefing right there. When one person's actions negatively impact the other 4 through no fault of their own, the other 4 have a right to demand something be done about it which is what he is doing.
    valoreah wrote: »
    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums. No thank you.
    As I've said a thousand times, you're NEVER going to have a system that is perfect and can never be abused in some way unless it's designed by a higher being like Q, The Presence from the DC universe, or The One Above All from Marvel. Expecting others to always have other people on and stick exclusively to private runs is completely unreasonable and not a valid solution. Automated systems can be tricked and once folks learn the thresholds for triggering automated systems you're right back where you started at square one and the automated systems have been rendered useless. Automated systems work for all of 5 minutes then they're useless.

    If folks don't grief and constantly AFK then 99% of the time they won't have to worry about a kick feature. If you don't like the idea of a kick feature, fine you're entitled to that opinion. However if you're going to say you don't want a kick feature, at least provide viable alternative methods that will actually work to address the issues. To date I can count on one hand how many potential solutions I've seen posted that would actually have any effect on the issue aside from a kick feature. The rest has all been excuses as to why it won't work in their minds and how instead of doing something we should just stick to the status quo, and the rest of the folks in the random queue pool should have to just suck it up and deal with the griefing.
    Now, if that had been present from the start, things would be different but since it wasn't, implementing it now would just cause more grief.

    An alternative solution could be a system that check your contribution and, if it's zero or below a certain amount, you get no rewards, at all.
    But a system like that would cause unjust punishment, just as the automated AFK penalty does now.

    Again, there's no easy solution to this, except grin and bear it and doing your best, which is all anyone can ask of you.
    See above about automated systems, once folks learn the thresholds to avoid losing rewards they will still do the bare minimum and expect folks to carry them and do nothing else. They're good for about 5 minutes until folks figure them out, then you're back to square one again. I fail to see why some folks (not saying you specifically) see it as so unreasonable that folks actually be expected to contribute to the run they queued for instead of being carried.

    I wish I didn't even have to bring up the idea of a kick system as I despise the thought of them even having to exist. However while they are crude and blunt instruments, they work. No system is abuse proof, but in this instance the 4 people in the run have a means of restitution if they get grouped with "that one guy." We already have automated systems and they don't stop anything. More of the same isn't going to work.

    Plenty of other games have added kick systems after the fact with WoW being a prime example, and the overall quality of runs has gone up because of it. Did it completely eliminate griefing, of course not, but it cut it down by a good 85% at least. Otherwise at the end of the day "grin and bear it" is not a viable solution and in my book is little more than an excuse for leeching.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,328 Community Moderator
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Like many have already said there isn't really much that can be done. I suppose a kick feature could be implemented, but then instead of dealing with afk peeps you might be dealing with players kicking you at random just to trollolol.

    No different than if they were to troll someone in the run itself. Otherwise this is why there would be safeguards to help prevent abuse of a kick feature should one be implemented.
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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,076 Arc User
    If I don't need their participation to get the TFO done, then it doesn't matter if they participate or not. So why do you care? The only person they might be hurting is themselves (good chance of getting an AFK penalty and getting nothing for their time). Seriously, just get over it. It's a game. Nobody is dying. No lives are being ruined, and no money is being lost.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,643 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Like many have already said there isn't really much that can be done. I suppose a kick feature could be implemented, but then instead of dealing with afk peeps you might be dealing with players kicking you at random just to trollolol.

    Not by a system managed vote-kick. Simply put, it detects the offence, and puts up a vote to kick prompt. It's run by the system and only the system, so players can't abuse it. Player initiated vote-kicks should never happen.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    This is what happens when the newer TFO's are built around AFKing them. Starbase One for example, to get your reward, all you really need to do is wait 11 minutes for the time be up, collect your reward, and move on with your day. This is how they are built.

    Not sure on the older ones. I know they're supposed to have a do 1% of the total damage required or be considered afk. This may have changed.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,774 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums.

    No, it really doesn't. In addition to STO I also play WoW, which has ALWAYS had a kick feature, and I almost never see it get abused, infact the last time I can remember witnessing attempted kick abuse was five or so years ago during Warlords of Draenor, and the vote failed because the rest of us saw what was going on and voted no. That's in WOW, a game with a much more toxic player base than STO has. Sure, there's POTENTIAL for abuse, but the vast majority of people aren't going to do that.

    I really don't understand the irrational fear some people have over a basic vote-kick option.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,328 Community Moderator
    leemwatson wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Like many have already said there isn't really much that can be done. I suppose a kick feature could be implemented, but then instead of dealing with afk peeps you might be dealing with players kicking you at random just to trollolol.

    Not by a system managed vote-kick. Simply put, it detects the offence, and puts up a vote to kick prompt. It's run by the system and only the system, so players can't abuse it. Player initiated vote-kicks should never happen.

    Players will simply do the bare minimum to avoid the vote kick popping up.
    If I don't need their participation to get the TFO done, then it doesn't matter if they participate or not. So why do you care? The only person they might be hurting is themselves (good chance of getting an AFK penalty and getting nothing for their time). Seriously, just get over it. It's a game. Nobody is dying. No lives are being ruined, and no money is being lost.

    If you want to roll through a queue like that, then by all means that's on you. However not everyone shares your sentiment, and some queues actually require everyone to participate if you want full rewards or sometimes to even advance the queue itself.

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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,328 Community Moderator
    valoreah wrote: »
    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums.

    No, it really doesn't. In addition to STO I also play WoW, which has ALWAYS had a kick feature, and I almost never see it get abused, infact the last time I can remember witnessing attempted kick abuse was five or so years ago during Warlords of Draenor, and the vote failed because the rest of us saw what was going on and voted no. That's in WOW, a game with a much more toxic player base than STO has. Sure, there's POTENTIAL for abuse, but the vast majority of people aren't going to do that.

    I really don't understand the irrational fear some people have over a basic vote-kick option.

    a billion times thank you for this. I played WoW for years and in the 11 years I've been in that game I've seen one successful abuse of the kick function, and one attempted abuse of it. So one attempted abuse every 5 1/2 years I consider an accomplishment. I have my own theories as to why some folks are so afraid of a kick system, but aside from those theories I don't get the irrational fear of it either. Folks complain about wanting something done, then when a solution that has worked and continues to work in other games gets suggested, suddenly it won't work and every excuse under the sun comes out to maintain the status quo that they were complaining about.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

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  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,099 Arc User
    Now, if that had been present from the start, things would be different but since it wasn't, implementing it now would just cause more grief.

    An alternative solution could be a system that check your contribution and, if it's zero or below a certain amount, you get no rewards, at all.
    But a system like that would cause unjust punishment, just as the automated AFK penalty does now.

    Again, there's no easy solution to this, except grin and bear it and doing your best, which is all anyone can ask of you.
    See above about automated systems, once folks learn the thresholds to avoid losing rewards they will still do the bare minimum and expect folks to carry them and do nothing else. They're good for about 5 minutes until folks figure them out, then you're back to square one again. I fail to see why some folks (not saying you specifically) see it as so unreasonable that folks actually be expected to contribute to the run they queued for instead of being carried.

    I wish I didn't even have to bring up the idea of a kick system as I despise the thought of them even having to exist. However while they are crude and blunt instruments, they work. No system is abuse proof, but in this instance the 4 people in the run have a means of restitution if they get grouped with "that one guy." We already have automated systems and they don't stop anything. More of the same isn't going to work.

    Plenty of other games have added kick systems after the fact with WoW being a prime example, and the overall quality of runs has gone up because of it. Did it completely eliminate griefing, of course not, but it cut it down by a good 85% at least. Otherwise at the end of the day "grin and bear it" is not a viable solution and in my book is little more than an excuse for leeching.

    "Not saying you specifically"... good, because I've never said anything like that, and I never will.
    I'm just in tune with what a kick feature would result into, because I've seen it happen time and time again, in multiple games and for the most disparaged - and stupid - reasons, including "I don't like how they're dressed", believe it or not.

    I expect people to contribute because that's what a team is supposed to do, otherwise just go play solo stuff and don't bother other people.
    But if they don't, then it's not my problem in the sense that I've done what I can to the best of my abilities, so my conscience is clear and I can go home with a reward that I have fairly earned.
    If you want to consider that attitude as "an excuse for leeching", then maybe you should re-read what I wrote, because I was quite clear in expressing my opinion.

    And just as with ESO, comparing STO with WoW is not conductive to ANYTHING because you need proper healers, tanks and DPSrs doing their jobs. In STO you don't unless you go for Elites.
    But if you *truly* want to compare other games that requires proper team compositions and for people to follow tactics and mechanics, SWTOR does have a kick feature... and I lost count of the times someone started a kick vote for whatever reason - including the one I mentioned above, together with "taking too long to load", "don't skip cutscenes", and stuff like that, though I suppose the most memorable one was because this guy said "brb, got to pee" and not even 15 seconds later one of the others started the kick vote.

    To once again quote @valoreah:
    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums. No thank you.

    Enjoy the rest of your discussion. I'm out.
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    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,737 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    Like many have already said there isn't really much that can be done. I suppose a kick feature could be implemented, but then instead of dealing with afk peeps you might be dealing with players kicking you at random just to trollolol.

    Not by a system managed vote-kick. Simply put, it detects the offence, and puts up a vote to kick prompt. It's run by the system and only the system, so players can't abuse it. Player initiated vote-kicks should never happen.

    That does not sound easy to implement.
    Tza0PEl.png
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,065 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    No, it's not his fault at all save for possibly not expecting the worst from people as much as I hate to say that. Being a random TFO does not excuse people from pulling their own weight in a team, nor does it give them an excuse to fudge the run up for everyone else, nor should they have to queue exclusively with fleetmates and others because certain people want to grief in a run.

    Completely disagree. You cannot - nor will you ever be able to - change the behavior of others. You can however, take control of your own actions to make your life and your gaming experience more enjoyable. You even said so yourself -
    As dark as this is going to sound, you're going to face some kind of abuse in an MMO regardless, the question is whether you want to be able to do anything about it or not.

    People can control their own actions to avoid putting themselves in these kinds of situations by teaming with friends and/or like minded players they know. Whether you agree or not, socializing and teaming with pre-made teams IS doing something about it. Instead of trying to impose your will on others, use the existing tools available and form your own teams. I and my friends and fleetmates do this near exclusively and we never have problems with AFKers ever.
    When you join a random TFO, it's no longer about just you, but the entire team.

    Correct. It is not about you. But not everyone wants to play the way you do. Some people are not interested in completing optional objectives. Some people may need to go AFK during a run. You have no idea what random people may or may not want to do in a random PUG. Trying to impose your will on others via a kick feature is not going to solve the problem for you.
    As I've said a thousand times, you're NEVER going to have a system that is perfect and can never be abused in some way unless it's designed by a higher being like Q, The Presence from the DC universe, or The One Above All from Marvel. Expecting others to always have other people on and stick exclusively to private runs is completely unreasonable and not a valid solution. Automated systems can be tricked and once folks learn the thresholds for triggering automated systems you're right back where you started at square one and the automated systems have been rendered useless. Automated systems work for all of 5 minutes then they're useless.

    Socializing, making friends who share your play style or joining a fleet that suits your needs so you have known people to team with who share your play style will solve the problem for you. These tools exist already. No development required. It does, however, take effort to socialize. If you want to make the decision to be an introvert and not engage with your fellow players, that is your choice. However, you need to accept the consequences of your choice.
    If you don't like the idea of a kick feature, fine you're entitled to that opinion. However if you're going to say you don't want a kick feature, at least provide viable alternative methods that will actually work to address the issues.

    See above. Teaming with friends it a totally viable solution that solves the problem 100% of the time for everyone involved.
    Otherwise at the end of the day "grin and bear it" is not a viable solution and in my book is little more than an excuse for leeching.

    No one is suggesting anyone "grin and bear it". Whether you like it or not, taking control of your gaming experience and teaming with friends works.

    Post edited by valoreah on
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,065 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    No, it really doesn't.

    I am sure people will say this until the first time they are kicked from a team for "having the wrong ship" or "not playing right" or whatever other arbitrary excuse is put forth. Everyone will love a vote kick system until they are trolled by it.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 2,076 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    valoreah wrote: »
    And creates more problems than it solves as has been discussed ad nauseam on these forums.

    No, it really doesn't. In addition to STO I also play WoW, which has ALWAYS had a kick feature, and I almost never see it get abused, infact the last time I can remember witnessing attempted kick abuse was five or so years ago during Warlords of Draenor, and the vote failed because the rest of us saw what was going on and voted no. That's in WOW, a game with a much more toxic player base than STO has. Sure, there's POTENTIAL for abuse, but the vast majority of people aren't going to do that.

    I really don't understand the irrational fear some people have over a basic vote-kick option.

    I've seen it abused in WoW A LOT. Farmore than I ever see AFK players leeching in a TFO. -addendum -- In fact, it got so bad WoW devs had to add cooldowns and penalty-timers to the system just to curb the behavior. Try again. It's a 'fix' that creates far more problems than it will ever solve. And unlike STO, WoW's group content isn't just balanced around having a full group, it's *designed* specifically around it.

    You're complaining about a problem that only exists in your mind and offering solutions that only make things worse.
  • cbrjwrrcbrjwrr Member Posts: 2,782 Arc User
    One of the (dubious admittedly) perks of STO is that most of the TFOs can be soloed, so generally if someone does go afk it's not a problem. However, this itself is a symptom of bad mission design (at least in Advanced and Elite) because being able to solo a mission that is supposed to be a five man team is an issue.

    Personally I would say Normal is for two people who know what to do, a third person sorting out idiots who think Khitomer Vortex is for playing football with probes, and one new player and one troll, because that is a reasonable scenario for pugging, while Advanced should be benchmarked at three people to allow for pugging issues, but for Elite it is reasonable to assume people are forming five person premade teams, and therefore higher competency. (which all too often in STO just means damage dealing; there aren't many missions that couldn't be auto-won just by having enough damage)

    I tend to assume the best about someone going afk; we've all had the experience of a landline phone call while playing for example. But systemic Problem-afking exists, and is primarily a function of mission design and/or reward structure that leads people to believe their desired goal is met better by not playing than by playing.

    The bigger problem of the two as it is harder to fix is bad gameplay design - so many missions are "do X activity for Y minutes", and that creates incentive to afk instead of play, especially when so often we have events where you have to do this for a few weeks to get the new shiny. Additionally, rewards are an issue; if people can afk a TFO for 15 minutes and get 100 marks, or actually bother and get an extra 30, then it becomes a problem of reward for playing not being desirable enough compared with the reward for not playing. Flipping it around, so that afking gets 30 marks and actually playing grants 130 marks, and Problem-afking will drop. (not completely unfortunately, because of "getting new shiny" afking)
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 11,065 Arc User
    edited February 2021
    "Not saying you specifically"... good, because I've never said anything like that, and I never will.
    I'm just in tune with what a kick feature would result into, because I've seen it happen time and time again, in multiple games and for the most disparaged - and stupid - reasons, including "I don't like how they're dressed", believe it or not.

    Totally agree. Knowing the motus operandi of certain individuals and fleets in this game, it is an absolute certainty vote kicking will be abused to troll others.
    And just as with ESO, comparing STO with WoW is not conductive to ANYTHING because you need proper healers, tanks and DPSrs doing their jobs. In STO you don't unless you go for Elites.

    This is an often ignored fact by those who say "but vote kicks work in WoW!!". WoW dungeons and encounters are much more scripted to require very specific roles. STO TFOs are not designed this way.

    Post edited by valoreah on
    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
    thecosmic1 wrote:
    Anyone calling Valoreah a "Cryptic fanboy" must be new to the forum.

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