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T6 Nova - a Ship that Wouldn't Sell

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  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    edited February 2
    Ok, a couple of things:

    1) If you think I'm not offering the opinions of the fans in every meeting, you are incorrect. Again, not listening to our most passionate players would be bad business. That is happening, even if you don't see it, and it's not just me.

    We the community cannot know what information you bring to the table in each meeting. You could be printing out every single contributory thread on the forum. The lack of follow-through for like, forever indicates a deep-seated practice on the team's part to take whatever information is passed on and do not one thing with it, other than ignore it.

    Someone refresh my memory... What was the last concept or suggestion put forward by the community that resulted in something being added to the game? I'm a bit fatigued due to lack of sleep, but I am sorry, I cannot come up with a single instance...
    2) Bridges. Man. I too wish, ten years ago, someone had thought to stick a cool gameplay loop in there. Even five years ago. But we are where we are, now, and the work you're requesting would require pulling a Systems Designer and a Content Designer off of what they're doing now for likely three to six months. Those folks don't have the time. As I've said elsewhere, they started working on the final Klingon Civil War update before House Reborn even launched, and it'll take them the whole time until that launch to finish. Game development is a massive task even when you have a gigantic team. And we have a good sized team. :)

    Yes... A good enough sized team that SYSTEMS have been removed from the game due to lack of available talent (man-hours) to fix and maintain them. Oh in deeper clarification on those removals it usually is indicated that the metrics show that those things weren't being used very widely... No kidding. Because they were broken and neglected for so long that people gave up on them. If you build it they will come. If you maintain it they will stay. But so many things are not maintained in this game and players abandon them. So many things are not built in this game, so players can't come.

    But that aside, though it is important to factor in, I do understand where we are at, and how much work it would be to do what I mentioned. As much as I would love to see it done, I know it won't be because of the amount of work it would take with not enough devs WITH the talent available to do it on top of what is already being done. I was simply trying to point out what killed bridge pack sales. What I suggested that would make them commercially viable again is what should have been done with the sales flatlined years ago, but because the decision to stop developing bridge packs was made, clearly on the basis of the numbers alone, with no interest in why, it wasn't done... And for years, the community has put forth ideas on things that could be done with interiors to make them useful in the game. I'm sure you communicated some of these ideas to the team. Many of the ideas were carefully thought out so as to use as many pre-existing mechanics as possible so it would be a matter of hooking those up to common triggers in the base interior files so they automatically propagate to interior instances, rather than having to build entirely new mechanics from the ground up. The community understands that the less new code that actually has to be built, the more likely it's could be considered feasible.

    I'm working on my own game project, and collaborating with someone on another one. I understand the challenges. I know that there is no such thing as "Just making it do this" when there is no pre-existing foundation to build off of. But I also know that coding is modular. This game has so many existing modules that can be adapted to use the same functionality for different applications. But hey... all the people who even know how to work with the code are busy working on something else. How many on the good-sized team are hired to code as opposed to working with tools to build the playable elements of the game. I'm going to venture a guess that the coders to non-coders ratio heavily favors the non-coders. I've said it before and I will say it again. more coders are needed to allow for more things to be done without pulling people off existing projects. I also know that to be able to do that, someone would have to convince PWE to open the money bag and put it into the budget. It's not for just giving interiors a viable purpose. It's about anything beyond maintaining the status quo...

    Don't get me wrong. I see that the processes needed before merging the factions into one are underway, and that ships made the most sense as the starting point. I figure that character races and customization options are the next logical step, and will be an even bigger undertaking. I see this as a very needed project, as so many parts of the game are stuck behind a system originally centered around PvP while the forward-going narrative is so far away from that system. I want to see that through to its completion before anything else is done on a systemic level.

    But when we are done with merging the factions, I believe that it should be built into the workflow to start visiting all these empty holes that can be monetized if what fills them is made meaningful enough that they engage the player beyond just clicking a few buttons before moving on to the next daily self-serving-only upkeep item on the player's list. Yes... STO is 11 years old. But it is still very much alive, and has so much potential.

    Oh... and before Discovery and Picard, the word was that the team was out of ideas... The community has plenty. What would have happened had there BEEN no Picard or Discovery? Would the team have gone "Alright... Out of ideas... Time for the sun to set..."?

    I see an opportunity for great things to still lay ahead. But I see us only really getting there if we journey together.

    There are some who would say "That's not the way it's done."
    I say "Nothing is EVER done ANY way until it is."
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,616 Arc User
    Man, oh man.

    There is so much sarcasm and such dripping from the OP that I almost don't want to respond. But since people are paraphrasing my words, I should repeat/clarify what I said elsewhere.

    It's very easy for places such as this forum and the subreddit to become echo chambers, and for us to not realize that it actually represents a smaller section of the player base - as does the comments I get on social media, or pretty much anywhere it's my job to check. It appears there is a large section of the STO playerbase that simply just...plays the game, and doesn't engage with it otherwise. This is fairly common in video games, and one of the reasons why we get a much bigger response to email campaigns than we do to anything on our blogs, forums, reddit, or social.

    This does not mean we don't care about what our most vocal and passionate players think. That would be a dumb way to run a business. It does that some business decisions are made around things that have proven to do well in the past. Individual, remade Federation ships in the C-store haven't done well in the past. That doesn't mean they're bad, nor that we would stop doing them. As I mentioned in the other post that's being paraphrased here, both the Oberth and the Nova are past the "conversations" phase and into the "work has actually been done on them" phase.

    "So why don't we have them?!" I hear you ask. Well, as I stated in the other post, the one being paraphrased here, as a free-to-play game, we have to make decisions about how to spend the developers' time based on what would give us the most return on that time. A great example of this is bridges - I've said a few times now that we only make new bridges for players if we are also making them for a mission, because then our Environment Artists can do double duty and make one map that does two things, instead of making two maps in double the time, one of which will only be seen rarely by a small subsection of the playerbase. Ships are the same way. The ship release schedule is put together to take the most advantage of the ships that will get the biggest section of the playerbase excited. Generally, the doesn't mean, as beloved as they are, ships that were background ships during a classic Star Trek series. Again, we've released a few of the "most clamored for" ships in the past few years, and they haven't done as well as some ships that I've been told "nobody asked for."

    This is the important part to quote me on: Does that mean we will "never" do these ships? Of course not, if nothing else, Thomas, Donny and Ian are too passionate about their starships to allow older ships to remain in their current state forever. But their time, and the systems designers who make the stats of the ships time, has to be allocated in a way that makes the most sense for the game as a whole.

    Does that make sense?

    So...let me get this straight...you focus on data from players in a F2P game that does not engage in the game and therefore are not likely to be spending much or even ANY money on the game in lieu of listening to the people who are passionate and are likely to be your big spender because you hate money or something? I have no idea what data you all are looking at so I mean maybe you have a better conversion rate than most F2P games and maybe all those just play the game players you have spend thousands a year on this game. Who know...but I somehow find that hard to believe to be the case. I can't even say you all have no idea what you are doing as you have kept your doors open for 11 years now on this game. But really...something smell off about all of this to me.

    As for it being in the work has been done phase...that would have been GREAT news...7 years ago. Or even 4 years ago after the first poll. Now...it's really a matter of WTF.

    So you can't have time to spend time on beloved FOCUS of MULTIPLE EPISODE ARC and a class of ship the LITERALLY meets the requirements to be a legendary ship like the Nova but you can make a BACKGROUND DEBRISE ship like the New Orleans because? That excuse of we can't make background ship does not even remotely apply to the Nova, it is completely and utterly NEGATED by the fact that you all actually DID MAKE A T6 BACKGROUND SHIPS.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,365 Community Manager
    Folks, I love you all, I swear. Please understand that I can't come here all the time to point by point refute everything you say. And when I do explain something in detail, posting giant essays about how wrong I am is not exactly helpful. :) Please trust that, while I can't tell you everything, I don't lie to you, and I may know a smidge more about the day to day internals of the game.

    Short responses:
    The post about bridges seems to understand that all of the work to make bridges viable would have needed to be done years ago, so, yay, I agree.
    I don't know that we'll ever FULLY bring the faction walls down. You'd still have to pick one at start, for example.
    I have NO idea where the idea that the team was "out of ideas" before Discovery and Picard happened. There was a whole arc planned with a new story after Victory is Life, as VIL was the ending of that particular story. But getting new shows obviously did change that.
    The idea that we look at player data but somehow don't look at how those players spend is...that's an interesting idea. :)
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,616 Arc User
    The idea that we look at player data but somehow don't look at how those players spend is...that's an interesting idea. :)

    Look, I admitted it, I don't have the data...and like I said, I can't even accuse Cryptic of not knowing what you are doing as you all are here 11 year later...but going from what I know of F2P MMOs and conversion rates of people not engaged...you all either have some AMAZEBALL conversion rates in that group or something...I can't even begin to say what is off without data. And if you have some stupidly amazing almost unheard of conversion rates on people not engaged in social media/forum of the game...well 1) congrats on that feat and 2) MOST of what you said makes sense. Not so much on the background ship thing as the Nova is not a background ship and is a ship on the short list of ships that can be legendary while the New Orleans which IS a background ship was released. But almost everything else does.

    Also I did not mean to sound as harsh as I did. I actually like that you are posting on the forum now and would like you to continue. That is a GOOD thing and please don't let my abrasive tone stop you from doing that.
  • ambassadorkael#6946 ambassadorkael Member, Administrator Posts: 2,365 Community Manager
    Thanks! Glad to be here. But yeah, it IS hard to be virtually screamed at all day, so any change in tone is always appreciated. :)
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    Folks, I love you all, I swear. Please understand that I can't come here all the time to point by point refute everything you say. And when I do explain something in detail, posting giant essays about how wrong I am is not exactly helpful. :) Please trust that, while I can't tell you everything, I don't lie to you, and I may know a smidge more about the day to day internals of the game.

    I don't know if that was directed at me or not, Kael... I can be long-winded., but it is not my intent to try to say how wrong you are. I think you are correct from the perspective of what you are able to talk about and what your responsibilities are... and are not. For your part, I believe yo take as many things as you can to the team in meetings. I therefore that the big disconnect is not with you. You're the messenger. What gets done with the message after you deliver it is out of your control. And ours.
    I don't know that we'll ever FULLY bring the faction walls down. You'd still have to pick one at start, for example.
    Not if everything available to Faction 2 and faction 1 are homogenized and added also to Faction 0... But that is a whole different can of worms that I will not open here.
    I have NO idea where the idea that the team was "out of ideas" before Discovery and Picard happened. There was a whole arc planned with a new story after Victory is Life, as VIL was the ending of that particular story. But getting new shows obviously did change that.

    I must correct myself. I know that there were two pending arcs in mind, but one of the devs actually said that beyond that, they were out of ideas. And it was more about running out of ideas for antagonists. I countered that with the notion that they stop running through conflicts with major enemies in just one season. They introduce a new threat and then in just a few missions remove them as such. They don't have to make every episode be about the same antagonist for years. But to my mind, they should always remain a threat that can rear its ugly head again at any time, and what worked before might not work this time.

    I mean, nothing stops the team from dropping another story dealing with the Iconians. Or any of the other bigbads whose arcs we tied up all nice and neat. What if the next big bad were to lay siege to earth? Or Qonos? or New Romulus?And what if after finally driving them off because of whatever McGuffin the plot uses, there's this foreboding sentiment that nothing really will stop them from doing it again, and like I said, what worked before might not work again... In DS9, for 6 episodes, the Dominion controlled the station. The bag guys ran the good guys out of their own house, and it wasn't a "but the good guys came right back the next week and turned it around. It was a plot event that carried real weight. I'd really like to see some persistent storytelling like that in STO, and I know it isn't impossible.
    The idea that we look at player data but somehow don't look at how those players spend is...that's an interesting idea. :)

    The player data you look at, as in the players who play the game but do not participate in community discussion. The only metric you see regarding their purchases is that they buy what you put in front of them on one hand and don't on the other. Like the cases of the single federation ships that you said didn't sell. As I asked, what was the reason? If they don't use the forum to express themselves as to why they didn't want waht was offered, you can't in all honewsty go "They don't like single federation ships, so those need to be less of a priority. Why not? Because for some reason, they looked at what was offered and decided that it wasn't worth spending the zen on. Why? Like I asked before, how close in terms of stats was the ship as compared to other ships on offer that sold prior to its release? If the difference between them was minor, there was really no incentive to buy.

    Contrary to popular opinion, people don't JUST throw money at stuff. Okay, SOME people do, but the average gamer, say, like the ones who don't post stuff, want to feel like what they are expected to spend money on grants them something that they don't already have. Now if the ship(s) in question were unique enough in their BOff seating and in aesthetic design so they handled completely differently from any other similar class ship, and they still didn't sell, then I apologize. But if they were more or less something the players already had, from a gameplay standpoint, what is the incentive to buy them?

    how a plyer doesn't spend doesn't tell you anything but they didn't like what was offered. Why they don't spend tells you what you need to do next time to get them to open their wallet. My perception is that Those in decision making positions don't ask Why often enough...
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,486 Arc User
    Thanks! Glad to be here. But yeah, it IS hard to be virtually screamed at all day, so any change in tone is always appreciated. :)

    I have been guilty of it and I admit it.

    It was mostly anger at feeling like there was no real communication between the player base and the game developers. Just the fact that you have posted these replies though shows that is inaccurate and I have changed my tone accordingly. I have no interest in pursuing a ‘witch hunt’ against someone that is making a real effort, not my style. :smile:

    All we ever wanted was to be able to occasionally interact with you.. that’s it. Most of us understand that it doesn’t always mean we will get the answers we want, we have to be adults and accept that and I believe most of us can do that. Not everything you’re saying is what we want to hear.. but it’s an answer and it helps us understand the other side of the issue. Without this interaction, we simply have no way to understand your side.

    So thank you again for talking with us about this.. I honestly believe you will find that for the most part people will be civil in replies. Attacking someone that is taking the time to try and answer a question is not a good look for anyone.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • shadowkoshshadowkosh Member Posts: 1,574 Arc User
    Folks, I love you all, I swear. Please understand that I can't come here all the time to point by point refute everything you say. And when I do explain something in detail, posting giant essays about how wrong I am is not exactly helpful. :) Please trust that, while I can't tell you everything, I don't lie to you, and I may know a smidge more about the day to day internals of the game.

    Short responses:
    The post about bridges seems to understand that all of the work to make bridges viable would have needed to be done years ago, so, yay, I agree.
    I don't know that we'll ever FULLY bring the faction walls down. You'd still have to pick one at start, for example.
    I have NO idea where the idea that the team was "out of ideas" before Discovery and Picard happened. There was a whole arc planned with a new story after Victory is Life, as VIL was the ending of that particular story. But getting new shows obviously did change that.
    The idea that we look at player data but somehow don't look at how those players spend is...that's an interesting idea. :)

    You are should really look at going a Wrath of Khan story line or Enterprise story line
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,330 Arc User
    Nice to hear a bit about the Nova and that it hasn't fully been forgotten.

    Related story, with the delta rising pack's announcement, the late addition of the Dauntless really made me sure I wanted to buy it, and I did. The Pathfinder in there even today I think is one of the most detailed and most incredible original canon-inspired models. A Nova/Rhode Island could have the same effect to push a few more sales that may not have happened otherwise on some future pack.
    Y945Yzx.jpg
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,907 Arc User
    edited February 2
    > @ambassadorkael#6946 said:
    > Thanks! Glad to be here. But yeah, it IS hard to be virtually screamed at all day, so any change in tone is always appreciated. :)




    Try being literally screamed at all day, like many of us who work in Healthcare often are.
    Post edited by reyan01 on


  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 10,167 Arc User
    edited February 2
    I have NO idea where the idea that the team was "out of ideas" before Discovery and Picard happened.
    It was Al with one with his Al Riveraisms

    https://priorityonepodcast.com/po387/
    There is so much new Star Trek coming out, right? How much we can leverage is overwhelming at this point now. I was coming up on like geez, what are we gonna do now. I have like a couple new stories that I want to take Star Trek Online, but then I was kinda running out of ideas. We hit every quadrant, we hit every major thing. I mean wow, every so often I would go back and be yeah thats right man, this is like a fanboy's dream, I can't believe it. I opened up my Connie and its like oh yeah I got a corbomite maneuver on there. How esoteric is that? It's wonderful that we have that level of detail, and fanservice, in our game. But now we've got Age of Discovery, we've got the Picard show, we've got the animated show, who knows whatever else they might be coming out with, and we're working with CBS. I mean CBS was just here about a month ago talking about what Discovery is doing, and what CBS is doing, and we get spoilers, and we get info, and how can we leverage that? You know, for stuff that hasn't even come out yet. We're already in those discussions. What can we do?So I don't think for a second that it's a bad thing that we're no longer the only place to get Star Trek. I think all it does is give us, puts us more in the forefront, and I think it'll just make us more popular, and more accessible to all the new and old fans.
    https://priorityonepodcast.com/po414/
    "We were getting to a dry spell. What other stories are we gonna do? Because we were running out. I had like one more arc I wanted to get into, but I was really kinda running out of ideas. Now we have too many ideas"
    https://priorityonepodcast.com/428-myceli-al-priority-one-a-roddenberry-star-trek-podcast/
    "Becuase after 10 years, like what are we going to do next? We were like we had a few more stories to do, but it was getting harder to come up with new stuff"
    He said multiple times over the course of like a year that he only had like 1-2 more story arc ideas left for STO, because they had done everything else, and were running out of ideas.

    But you know "change the face of the game" and all that.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 10,167 Arc User
    Someone refresh my memory... What was the last concept or suggestion put forward by the community that resulted in something being added to the game? I'm a bit fatigued due to lack of sleep, but I am sorry, I cannot come up with a single instance...
    Many of the recent QoL updates we have gotten in the last two years were based on long standing player requests
    • A way for admiralty ship cards to be auto claimed, instead of having to claim each ship one at a time.
    • Inventory stacking increases, so things don't take up as many inventory slots.
    • A streamlining of the reputation sponsorship program, so it didn't involve the hassle of tokens.
    • A "fill all" button for reputation projects
    • A "salvage all" mechanic so you don't have to salvage items individually.
    Where all things people asked for before they were added to the game.
  • sirsitsalotsirsitsalot Member Posts: 2,351 Arc User
    Someone refresh my memory... What was the last concept or suggestion put forward by the community that resulted in something being added to the game? I'm a bit fatigued due to lack of sleep, but I am sorry, I cannot come up with a single instance...
    Many of the recent QoL updates we have gotten in the last two years were based on long standing player requests
    • A way for admiralty ship cards to be auto claimed, instead of having to claim each ship one at a time.
    • Inventory stacking increases, so things don't take up as many inventory slots.
    • A streamlining of the reputation sponsorship program, so it didn't involve the hassle of tokens.
    • A "fill all" button for reputation projects
    • A "salvage all" mechanic so you don't have to salvage items individually.
    Where all things people asked for before they were added to the game.

    QOL Improvements are NOT what I was talking about. I was talking about features and functionality as iy applies tyo playable content. But I wasn't specific in that, so... Touché
    When it comes to MMOs, I wear prescription glasses. Whether or not they are rose-tinted is beside the point.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,907 Arc User
    edited February 2
    Nice to hear a bit about the Nova and that it hasn't fully been forgotten.

    Related story, with the delta rising pack's announcement, the late addition of the Dauntless really made me sure I wanted to buy it, and I did. The Pathfinder in there even today I think is one of the most detailed and most incredible original canon-inspired models. A Nova/Rhode Island could have the same effect to push a few more sales that may not have happened otherwise on some future pack.
    Someone on Reddit came up with a pretty nice 2410/STO-skin Nova refit skin concept:
    joghw7if74v31.jpg
    Overlooking the stats, it's a pretty nice skin concept.


  • ussvaliant2#1952 ussvaliant2 Member Posts: 315 Arc User
    I still want a T6 Nova T6 Saber and T6 SteamRunner. I'd put in hand in my pocket for these ships long before I would anything from Discovery/Picard or Lower Decks.
    [url=https://imgur.com/Mp3E8EH][img]http://i.imgur.com/Mp3E8EH.jpg[/img][/url]

    “If you have a problem figuring out whether you’re having Lag or Rubber-banding,” “then you ain’t playing Star Trek Online.”
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 10,167 Arc User
    edited February 2
    I still want a T6 Nova T6 Saber and T6 SteamRunner. I'd put in hand in my pocket for these ships long before I would anything from Discovery/Picard or Lower Decks.
    I would prefer they make a T6 of all the currently available in-game ships lacking a T6 version before they start adding like DSC S3 ship designs, or the LD ships.

    Lobi
    • Advanced Obelisk Carrier
    • Hirogen Apex Heavy Battlecruiser
    Lockbox
    • APU Cruiser
    • Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort
    • Kazon Heavy Raider
    • Malon Battlecruiser
    • Nihydron Destroyer
    • Sphere Builder Arehbes Destroyer
    • Tholian Meshweaver Escort
    Phoenix Prize Pack
    • Risian Luxury Cruiser
    • Voth Bulwark Dreadnought Cruiser
    Starfleet
    • Aquarius Light Escort
    • Cheyenne Heavy Cruiser
    • D'Kyr Science Vessel
    • Dyson Science Destroyers
    • Emissary Star Cruiser
    • Hermes Patrol Escort
    • Malachowski Light Cruiser
    • Nova Science Vessel
    • Oberth Light Science Vessel
    • Olympic Research Science Vessel
    • Pioneer Utility Cruiser
    • Saber Escort
    • Steamrunner Blockade Runner Escort
    • Trident Deep Space Science Vessel
    Romulan
    • Dyson Science Destroyers
    • Ha'feh Assault Warbird
    • Ha'nom Guardian Warbird
    Klingon
    • Dyson Science Destroyers
    • Kamarag Battlecruiser
  • ishigami2ishigami2 Member Posts: 138 Arc User
    edited February 2
    It does that some business decisions are made around things that have proven to do well in the past.

    Like removing the "standard" bundle to price gouge the player base on a bundle with extensive and expansive extras that most long time players do not care about.
    Because the fewer "deluxe" bundles sold probably off set the higher amount of "standard" bundle sold and therefore maximizes revenue for the "business".

    Am I right or am I right?

    Care to explain the lack of a standard bundle for this anniversary when there was one before?
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,382 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Klingon
    • Dyson Science Destroyers
    • Kamarag Battlecruiser

    There are some Birds of Prey that aren't available at T6 either, such as the Ning'tao (my personal favorite), Hegh'ta, and Qaw'Dun, though fixing them up to work with the T6 B'rel would probably be a better solution than overloading the C-Store with Bird of Prey variants.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
    eaY7Xxu.png
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 10,167 Arc User
    edited February 2
    There are some Birds of Prey that aren't available at T6 either, such as the Ning'tao (my personal favorite), Hegh'ta, and Qaw'Dun, though fixing them up to work with the T6 B'rel would probably be a better solution than overloading the C-Store with Bird of Prey variants.
    There is a specific reason why I didn't include those, and many other lower tier ships on the Klingon side.

    The early Klingon ship tiers tend to only have one option per ship class, per tier. While higher tier ships in that same class are unable to use the visuals of lower tiers in that class, they are unlike like Federation ships where not all ships exist at every tier, but theres some sort of other ship, with different stats, of that same type at every tier, and are instead direct stat upgrades of each other, like a Tier 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 version of like the Connie would be, if it existed at every tier.

    The T6 Gorn multi-missions, the T6 Nausicaan destroyer, the T6 Orion carrier, the T6 Qa'Tel, and the T6 Kor, are the T6 versions of all the lower tier ships in that line, despite being unable to use the visuals of the lower tier ships, as those whole lines have largely been unable to do from the beginning.

    I would be legit surprised if we ever saw T6 versions of these lower tier ships because the current T6 ships already exist for that purpose.
  • phoenix841phoenix841 Member Posts: 477 Arc User
    ishigami2 wrote: »
    It does that some business decisions are made around things that have proven to do well in the past.

    Like removing the "standard" bundle to price gouge the player base on a bundle with extensive and expansive extras that most long time players do not care about.
    Because the fewer "deluxe" bundles sold probably off set the higher amount of "standard" bundle sold and therefore maximizes revenue for the "business".

    Am I right or am I right?

    Care to explain the lack of a standard bundle for this anniversary when there was one before?

    Or contains stuff players already have, or from other bundles (11th anni bundle faction unlock; Picard bundle).
    LTS Since Beta (Jan 2010).
  • mattingly1mattingly1 Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited February 3
    Not sure why people are giving Kael flack. As always with these CM types, it seems more stable voices always have to chant "messenger, not source; messenger, not source" over and over.

    I'm very, very, VERY happy about the T6 Oberth, although I do hope that it's "soon" as in the first half of this year and not "soon" as in maybe they'll get to it in 2021.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So you can't have time to spend time on beloved FOCUS of MULTIPLE EPISODE ARC and a class of ship the LITERALLY meets the requirements to be a legendary ship like the Nova but you can make a BACKGROUND DEBRISE ship like the New Orleans because?

    Oh, look, one of those unfortunate souls who believes that some ships are more canon than others simply because they prefer one over the other. Bad news, guy: if it appears on screen, it's canon. So much as you might enjoy dumping on the Challengers (Christ I wish these were in the game), Springfields and New Orleans of the world, as far as Star Trek is concerned, they're just as real and valid a project for someone at Cryptic to pursue as the Nova. Pound sand.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,486 Arc User
    edited February 3
    mattingly1 wrote: »

    Oh, look, one of those unfortunate souls who believes that some ships are more canon than others simply because they prefer one over the other. Bad news, guy: if it appears on screen, it's canon. So much as you might enjoy dumping on the Challengers (Christ I wish these were in the game), Springfields and New Orleans of the world, as far as Star Trek is concerned, they're just as real and valid a project for someone at Cryptic to pursue as the Nova. Pound sand.

    Can you quote the part where he says the New Orleans isn't canon? where did that even come from?

    He's arguing the validity and importance of one ship (The Nova) which has been neglected versus a much more seldom used ship that's gotten the royal treatment (New Orleans.)

    And sorry to break it to ya.. but he's right. The New Orleans is canon, no one is disputing that.. but it's only on screen appearance was in a debris field vs. The Nova that actually had a several episode story around it. You tell me which one deserves more attention. You're obviously looking to pick a fight and that's your prerogative, but at least fight over something that was actually said. :wink:
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  • mattingly1mattingly1 Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited February 3
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Can you quote the part where he says the New Orleans isn't canon? where did that even come from?

    He's arguing the validity and importance of one ship (The Nova) which has been neglected versus a much more seldom used ship that's gotten the royal treatment (New Orleans.)
    No, he's really not right, and neither are you - it was very obvious that the New Orleans was being used as a foil to build up the Nova: a class whose claim to fame essentially amounts to being unequal to the task of flying solo through the Delta Quadrant, to the extent that the crew has to kidnap and murder aliens just to make headway. In total, the Nova appears in 2 episodes of Voyager, plus as a refit Rhode Island in an alternate future. Its screen time amounts to maybe 5 minutes. There's nothing specifically worthy or special about that - it was a dropped early design for the Defiant that the Voyager team hauled out of mothballs because it was easier than designing something from scratch.

    Again: just because it you like something doesn't correspondingly elevate its relevance for anyone but you. Also, use your words instead of emotes - being transparently passive aggressive isn't some new internet trick. You wanna say something, champ, then spit it out like a man.
  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 898 Arc User
    The Nova refit also fought alongside the Enterprise-J.

    Personally I feel more is more. Pump out the content left right and centre I say. But for a game that is free and all content present and future being/staying free I understand that isnt feasible. I'm a lifer but I would prefer the game be free so more people can give it a try unburdened.

    That said model updates as part of QoL improvements would be nice even if they dont have a new ship attached to them. But I know nothing about the development process nor do I have technical knowledge and I have no insight into the budget and sales data.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,210 Arc User
    edited February 3
    > @mattingly1 said:
    In total, the Nova appears in 2 episodes of Voyager, plus as a refit Rhode Island in an alternate future. Its screen time amounts to maybe 5 minutes.

    So the Nova appeared in three times as many episodes and had like a hundred times the screentime than that of the New Orleans.

    Of course the nova attracts a larger ingame demand because of that.

    I must confess that I’m a bit lost in your argumentation strategy.
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  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,330 Arc User
    mattingly1 wrote: »
    In total, the Nova appears in 2 episodes of Voyager, plus as a refit Rhode Island in an alternate future. Its screen time amounts to maybe 5 minutes. There's nothing specifically worthy or special about that

    Those 2 episodes included a special focus on the Nova's crew, including time aboard the Nova's interior. All of that makes up the Nova's relevance and importance as an established canon Star Trek ship, capable of surviving in the Delta Quadrant despite having less than the Intrepid, and worthy of being retrofitted as a Rhode Island in the future.

    In addition to that, Harry Kim, one of the main characters of Voyager, ended up Captain of one in the future.

    I'd say there's everything worthy and special about both the Nova and the Rhode Island.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,486 Arc User
    edited February 3
    mattingly1 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Can you quote the part where he says the New Orleans isn't canon? where did that even come from?

    He's arguing the validity and importance of one ship (The Nova) which has been neglected versus a much more seldom used ship that's gotten the royal treatment (New Orleans.)
    No, he's really not right, and neither are you - it was very obvious that the New Orleans was being used as a foil to build up the Nova: a class whose claim to fame essentially amounts to being unequal to the task of flying solo through the Delta Quadrant, to the extent that the crew has to kidnap and murder aliens just to make headway. In total, the Nova appears in 2 episodes of Voyager, plus as a refit Rhode Island in an alternate future. Its screen time amounts to maybe 5 minutes. There's nothing specifically worthy or special about that - it was a dropped early design for the Defiant that the Voyager team hauled out of mothballs because it was easier than designing something from scratch.

    Again: just because it you like something doesn't correspondingly elevate its relevance for anyone but you. Also, use your words instead of emotes - being transparently passive aggressive isn't some new internet trick. You wanna say something, champ, then spit it out like a man.

    I am just going to skip over all that and say best of luck to you in whatever is going on to make you so hostile. I said nothing to provoke you, but here we are. People that know me on this board know me well enough to know that if I had a problem with you I would say it without reservation.

    I honestly didn't understand why you were attacking a point he never made and asked for clarification. Your reply was to attempt to instigate hostility with me next so I can see where all this is going to go and sorry, not interested. Best of luck to you working through your anger issues, but count me out.
    Those 2 episodes included a special focus on the Nova's crew, including time aboard the Nova's interior. All of that makes up the Nova's relevance and importance as an established canon Star Trek ship, capable of surviving in the Delta Quadrant despite having less than the Intrepid, and worthy of being retrofitted as a Rhode Island in the future.

    In addition to that, Harry Kim, one of the main characters of Voyager, ended up Captain of one in the future.

    I'd say there's everything worthy and special about both the Nova and the Rhode Island.

    Well said, the ships relevance is obvious and without doubt. It's biggest failing was that it wasn't as good as Voyager which was 'top of the line' at the time. In a game where we can fly T6 versions of things like the Original Constitution Class or a T6 Reliant class, this is hardly an issue anyway. There are many ships that are obviously inferior to the Nova Class and totally outdated by comparison that are still relevant and remain some of the best ships in the game. The argument against the Nova simply has no merit.
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,907 Arc User
    mattingly1 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Can you quote the part where he says the New Orleans isn't canon? where did that even come from?

    He's arguing the validity and importance of one ship (The Nova) which has been neglected versus a much more seldom used ship that's gotten the royal treatment (New Orleans.)
    No, he's really not right, and neither are you - it was very obvious that the New Orleans was being used as a foil to build up the Nova: a class whose claim to fame essentially amounts to being unequal to the task of flying solo through the Delta Quadrant, to the extent that the crew has to kidnap and murder aliens just to make headway. In total, the Nova appears in 2 episodes of Voyager, plus as a refit Rhode Island in an alternate future. Its screen time amounts to maybe 5 minutes. There's nothing specifically worthy or special about that - it was a dropped early design for the Defiant that the Voyager team hauled out of mothballs because it was easier than designing something from scratch.

    Again: just because it you like something doesn't correspondingly elevate its relevance for anyone but you. Also, use your words instead of emotes - being transparently passive aggressive isn't some new internet trick. You wanna say something, champ, then spit it out like a man.

    Although I really wanted to stay out of this discussion, I am going to address this.

    Yes the USS Equinox was in a worse position, due to its mission profile. However, lets not forget that she had the added handicap of having been badly damaged from repeat attacks from the Krowtonan Guard.

    The rest has already been said by others, but felt it was still worth pointing out that not only was the Equinox at more of a disavantage due to her mission profile, but she had a FAR worse start to her journey home than Voyager.


  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,907 Arc User
    edited February 3
    Anyway, at this point its fairly obvious that I've fallen on my sword here. The CM has spoken and those of us who've been waiting seven years are suppposed to take some comfort in the fact that "work has actually been done on them".

    I, personally, don't take much comfort in that statement; I mean, I can tell the Health Commissioners for the NHS Trust (UK National Health Service) that I work for that "work has actually been done on the statistics for psychology appointments that our patients failed to attend in 2020" but in reality I've only actually gotten as far as March 2020.
    (Although in my case the delay has little to do with financial gain and what might make the most profit - the reason I've only gotten as far as March 2020 thus far is because I still have to do my usual work, which for a large part includes taking telephone calls from patients with suicidal ideation or intent/Dementia patients who, tragically, seldom remember what you've told them or why they need the service/carers sufferring from carer fatigue etc etc - all of which has gotten a LOT worse since the pandemic took hold).

    So yeah, so far as I am concerned "work has actually been done on them" is another vague statement - it doesn't tell anyone exactly what work has been done nor does it suggest anything about when said work may be completed.

    Anyway, comments both here and on Reddit tend to have taken something of a turn toward 'poor Kael' and imply that I shouldn't have created this thread. So apologies for that.

    Also, apologies for being 'passionate' about my favourite ship. The forum is where I come during those very short breaks, at work, where I don't have someone yelling at me, or to unwind after a day of being shouted at by some of those I described above.
    Getting cross about my favourite Trek Starship having been neglected by STO for such a long time is, in my opinion, a better coping mechanism than gettting cross about how damn stressful things are at work right now.


  • mattingly1mattingly1 Member Posts: 179 Arc User
    edited February 3
    reyan01 wrote: »
    mattingly1 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Can you quote the part where he says the New Orleans isn't canon? where did that even come from?

    He's arguing the validity and importance of one ship (The Nova) which has been neglected versus a much more seldom used ship that's gotten the royal treatment (New Orleans.)
    No, he's really not right, and neither are you - it was very obvious that the New Orleans was being used as a foil to build up the Nova: a class whose claim to fame essentially amounts to being unequal to the task of flying solo through the Delta Quadrant, to the extent that the crew has to kidnap and murder aliens just to make headway. In total, the Nova appears in 2 episodes of Voyager, plus as a refit Rhode Island in an alternate future. Its screen time amounts to maybe 5 minutes. There's nothing specifically worthy or special about that - it was a dropped early design for the Defiant that the Voyager team hauled out of mothballs because it was easier than designing something from scratch.

    Again: just because it you like something doesn't correspondingly elevate its relevance for anyone but you. Also, use your words instead of emotes - being transparently passive aggressive isn't some new internet trick. You wanna say something, champ, then spit it out like a man.

    Although I really wanted to stay out of this discussion, I am going to address this.

    Yes the USS Equinox was in a worse position, due to its mission profile. However, lets not forget that she had the added handicap of having been badly damaged from repeat attacks from the Krowtonan Guard.

    The rest has already been said by others, but felt it was still worth pointing out that not only was the Equinox at more of a disavantage due to her mission profile, but she had a FAR worse start to her journey home than Voyager.

    I don't accept that the Nova is more worthy than other ships currently in the game (at least, not canon ships - made up stuff like the miracle worker Scott-class cruisers? Yes, absolutely). Correspondingly, though - however - I don't believe it to be significantly less worthy, either. What people don't seem to understand is that there are certain 'high appeal' ships like the Defiants, Intrepids and Galaxies of the world that had to logically come first. The Nova is undeniably below that interest level. And anything at that collective interest level needs to be viewed in a state of relative equality: it's canon - it should all be in the game (more on this below).

    My agitated response was for two (and a half) reasons:

    1) People seem to think that just because Kael is a representative of Cryptic, he's the deserving and valid target for their pent-up anger regarding decisions made by the company. That's like going in and unloading at the dude at the front desk of the Verizon store because your service is spotty - there's just no correlation between someone who is a spokesperson, and someone who is making policy choices.

    2)The notion that other canon ships - such as the New Orleans - need to be thrown under the bus because they were 'just space garbage.' Yet, that 'space garbage' is no less deserving of receiving the tier 6 treatment than the Nova is. As far as I'm concerned, unless a ship was the star of a series or a movie, or a very common sight therein (such as with the D7/K'tingas), it's not 'legendary.' So, unsurprisingly, it doesn't get top billing, and shouldn't be seen as something that required a priority addition. One man's space trash is another man's favorite ship - and it's more than a little aggravating to see people take shots at something that is also canon just to prop up their preferred starship. Nobody is denying that the Nova shouldn't get in - but to say that it should have gotten in at the expense of the New Orleans is just patently unfair. And that is exactly what this quote was saying:
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So you can't have time to spend time on beloved FOCUS of MULTIPLE EPISODE ARC and a class of ship the LITERALLY meets the requirements to be a legendary ship like the Nova but you can make a BACKGROUND DEBRISE ship like the New Orleans because?

    2b) With regards to seaofsorrows specifically - don't /wink at people and expect them not to snap back. You knew exactly what you were doing. I am too old hat at this to buy off on the innocent 'I don't know where all this anger is coming from' gambit/pearl clutching. Act hostile, and expect hostility in return.

    Having said all that, there is a problem here that I think we can all agree on - Cryptic's perceived bias against some canon ships as opposed to others, especially as it relates to canon vs. non-canon ships. Why, for example, are only some of the Wolf 359 ships in the game? Why isn't the Norway-class in at all? Why is something fairly widely loved, like the Saber-class, left as such a heap?

    I appreciate Kael's position that STO remains a relatively small team effort, and that there is only time for so many projects, but why has made up silliness like the Command Cruisers and Temporal Cruisers for years been given preference over adding actual canon ships to the client? I may rail against bias on this forum, and scold people for laying into Kael, but - at a management level - I am equally aghast by the inclination of this company to 'play favorites,' and elevate some in-house designs (often of VERY suspect aesthetic appeal) over those that actually made it on-screen (however brief that appearance might have been).

    THAT'S the message we should be asking Kael to carry back to his masters - not blasting him because the Nova took this long to update.
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