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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,814 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I admit I always kinda freak out when I see a Vaadwaur Juggernaut in an Infected run, and I tend to average around 20k DPS or so on my main's primary ship. Have spiked into 30k at times.

    I have to agree with fox. At times having a high DPS build in some content does tend to take away from other players. And it can be VERY easy to accidentially AFK someone with that sheer amount of damage output in a short TFO.

    On the other hand... pushing for high DPS isn't wrong. If they enjoy it, they enjoy it. But don't do it at the expense of others in a run. If you nuke everything you look at... maybe redirect so that the rest of the group can actually do something other than make the queue pop.
    Usually when I see a Juggernaut in an Infected run I tend to break out in a cold sweat as I know I'm nothing more than a chew toy for a big dog rather than a meaningful part of the team :s:o:#

    Tonight I met another of these over powered ships of death in an pug ISA and decided to put to the EPtE + emergency conn hologram + deuterium surplus advice to the test and was right beside the beastly thing the entire run in my tiny little non-legendary science ship.

    He parsed over 315K. My little science ship still managed 71K. That combo in italics above is really the way to go to provide the mobility to keep up and get around a map when things start moving faster.

    Just "say no" to being a chew toy.
    gad9vMA.jpg
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,258 Arc User
    edited January 19
    I've read the replies here with some interest, and if I may make an observation:
    It seems the issue actually isn't 'high DPS' in itself. The issue is high DPS in ISA specifically. Almost all these replies that make reference to OP players in OP ships seem to be in the context of ISA.

    And yes, I'll agree that I too am one of those who despairs when a Juggernaught enters ISA. However, I rarely play ISA, and when I do its due to the 'Random' system putting me there. To be honest, my favourite TFO is Starbase One Advanced; one reason for that being that it is very difficult for one player to dominate a map like that - the NPCs are too spread out and, unlike almost everything in ISA, they actually move. Same applies to Swarm.

    I know ISA tends to be the 'The One TFO to rule them all' though, so I guess some things will never change.


  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,012 Arc User
    At what point will people realize that cannon build juggers aren’t at the top of the DPS chain anymore. 😕

    Kinetic builds, epg, overload, broken pets. All of them are as strong by now if not stronger.

    The only thing that fell behind a bit are faw spam boats as requested by so many around here for so long.
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    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    At what point will people realize that cannon build juggers aren’t at the top of the DPS chain anymore. 😕

    Kinetic builds, epg, overload, broken pets. All of them are as strong by now if not stronger.

    The only thing that fell behind a bit are faw spam boats as requested by so many around here for so long.

    People assume when they see a Jugger that it’s automatically a DPS Monster.. of course, that’s a silly assumption. It’s the same thing that used to be said about Scimitar’s and various other ships through the years. Just as some people ‘DPS Shame’ people in ships they feel are bad, the same happens on the other side where people assume certain ships are insanely powerful. Of course, the truth is that the power comes from the build and the skill of the pilot so assuming any ship is a DPS Machine is kinda silly.

    Right now, Science Ships are the top of the heap.. heck, you can outgun a Jugger in a Tzen-Tar fairly easily. But it’s fine.. people will always make assumptions, not much you can really do about it.
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,258 Arc User
    At what point will people realize that cannon build juggers aren’t at the top of the DPS chain anymore. 😕

    Kinetic builds, epg, overload, broken pets. All of them are as strong by now if not stronger.

    The only thing that fell behind a bit are faw spam boats as requested by so many around here for so long.

    People assume when they see a Jugger that it’s automatically a DPS Monster.. of course, that’s a silly assumption. It’s the same thing that used to be said about Scimitar’s and various other ships through the years. Just as some people ‘DPS Shame’ people in ships they feel are bad, the same happens on the other side where people assume certain ships are insanely powerful. Of course, the truth is that the power comes from the build and the skill of the pilot so assuming any ship is a DPS Machine is kinda silly.

    Right now, Science Ships are the top of the heap.. heck, you can outgun a Jugger in a Tzen-Tar fairly easily. But it’s fine.. people will always make assumptions, not much you can really do about it.

    No, I'm well aware of that.

    Simple fact is that my comments are born from experience. Granted it doesn't happen all that frequently, but in my experience the appearance of a Juggernaught in ISA has almost always resulted in the run lasting about 40 seconds, with the rest of the team desperately scrambling around to find something that wasn't already dead.


  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    At what point will people realize that cannon build juggers aren’t at the top of the DPS chain anymore. 😕

    Kinetic builds, epg, overload, broken pets. All of them are as strong by now if not stronger.

    The only thing that fell behind a bit are faw spam boats as requested by so many around here for so long.

    I'm not saying you're wrong, but the Jugg is still just as capable as it always was, and making ISA done in <1 minute is absolutely what they can do.
    At what point will people realize that cannon build juggers aren’t at the top of the DPS chain anymore. 😕

    Kinetic builds, epg, overload, broken pets. All of them are as strong by now if not stronger.

    The only thing that fell behind a bit are faw spam boats as requested by so many around here for so long.

    People assume when they see a Jugger that it’s automatically a DPS Monster.. of course, that’s a silly assumption. It’s the same thing that used to be said about Scimitar’s and various other ships through the years. Just as some people ‘DPS Shame’ people in ships they feel are bad, the same happens on the other side where people assume certain ships are insanely powerful. Of course, the truth is that the power comes from the build and the skill of the pilot so assuming any ship is a DPS Machine is kinda silly.

    Right now, Science Ships are the top of the heap.. heck, you can outgun a Jugger in a Tzen-Tar fairly easily. But it’s fine.. people will always make assumptions, not much you can really do about it.

    Its a little harder to get a Jugg than a Scimitar, though. Someone who gets a Jugg has a lot of investment in this game and at the very least is almost certainly reading DPS guides/reports to know that they Jugg is able to be the DPS monster it can be. It is a safe assumption that they are trying to be a DPS monster or they wouldn't fly the Jugg.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,714 Arc User
    edited January 19
    I would like to see Advanced actually made Advanced. Instead of creating a new tier of difficulty between Advanced and Elite, make Advanced hard enough to push under geared and unprepared characters down to ‘normal’ level where they are more comfortable.

    I feel like this will never happen. Under geared players always join advanced for the higher rewards. They don't care if they are unprepared or not comfortable. They just hope someone in there is going to carry them to victory. It's even worse now because Cryptic has removed the failure conditions from a lot of the TFO's.

    Post edited by nikephorus on
    Tza0PEl.png
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    edited January 19
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I would like to see Advanced actually made Advanced. Instead of creating a new tier of difficulty between Advanced and Elite, make Advanced hard enough to push under geared and unprepared characters down to ‘normal’ level where they are more comfortable.

    I feel like this will never happen. Under geared players always join advanced for the higher rewards. They don't care if they are unprepared or not comfortable. They just hope someone in there is going to carry them to victory. It's even worse now because Cryptic has removed the failure conditions from a lot of the TFO's.

    Because you're in the head of every "under geared" player and you know with absolute certainty that they just want to be carried.
    Nevermind the fact that there are new players - and new characters - that are under geared because... oh yes, THEY'RE NEW and reputation gear is the easiest way, a part from episode rewards, to get some decent equip that, surprise surprise!, it requires elite marks that, another suprise!, aren't awarded by normal queues.

    But apparently, you very conveniently forgot that you, too, were carried when you started playing. ESPECIALLY if you did so when the failure conditions were still in place.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,714 Arc User
    edited January 19
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I would like to see Advanced actually made Advanced. Instead of creating a new tier of difficulty between Advanced and Elite, make Advanced hard enough to push under geared and unprepared characters down to ‘normal’ level where they are more comfortable.

    I feel like this will never happen. Under geared players always join advanced for the higher rewards. They don't care if they are unprepared or not comfortable. They just hope someone in there is going to carry them to victory. It's even worse now because Cryptic has removed the failure conditions from a lot of the TFO's.

    Because you're in the head of every "under geared" player and you know with absolute certainty that they just want to be carried.
    Nevermind the fact that there are new players - and new characters - that are under geared because... oh yes, THEY'RE NEW and reputation gear is the easiest way, a part from episode rewards, to get some decent equip that, surprise surprise!, it requires elite marks that, another suprise!, aren't awarded by normal queues.

    But apparently, you very conveniently forgot that you, too, were carried when you started playing. ESPECIALLY if you did so when the failure conditions were still in place.

    Since you like to make baseless assumptions I suppose I can make one as well; -You must be one of those players that enjoys getting carried. There are so many good space sets and other gear now as storyline mission rewards that there is no excuse to go into an Advanced level TFO unprepared for that difficulty. They have three tiers of difficulty for a reason. Play normal if you're that terribly geared that's why it's there. You can still earn your way in that respect rather then hope to get carried in Advanced or Elite. Additionally, you can get elite marks in the rep itself by converting standard reputation marks. I especially enjoyed how you came to the conclusion that every player automatically has to get carried through content at some point. That is obviously false and a poorly constructed argument. I make it a point to never join an advanced level TFO with a character that is unprepared for that difficulty and who will be a burden to the team.
    Post edited by nikephorus on
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  • protoneousprotoneous Member Posts: 1,814 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I've read the replies here with some interest, and if I may make an observation:
    It seems the issue actually isn't 'high DPS' in itself. The issue is high DPS in ISA specifically. Almost all these replies that make reference to OP players in OP ships seem to be in the context of ISA.

    And yes, I'll agree that I too am one of those who despairs when a Juggernaught enters ISA. However, I rarely play ISA, and when I do its due to the 'Random' system putting me there. To be honest, my favourite TFO is Starbase One Advanced; one reason for that being that it is very difficult for one player to dominate a map like that - the NPCs are too spread out and, unlike almost everything in ISA, they actually move. Same applies to Swarm.

    I know ISA tends to be the 'The One TFO to rule them all' though, so I guess some things will never change.

    Starbase One and Swarm (advanced) are both maps where a sci-torp with a gravity well can be very effective. There's really only one other player needed, if that.

    So even a casual player with an effective build can run into a bit of a dilemma whether they're running crowd control, beams, cannons, or torps.

    Use your build as intended or not and provide target practice and lots of drops for those who want to partake or wait for things to complete as these two maps are timer based anyways without a fail condition.

    ISA might be a little different as it can be quicker and more of a dps check. In this case the same player above can take considerable threat and assist with damage if the team is a bit short or not and get an extended fight (mess) with failure of the no real penalty optional, or when higher performing players are in the team fly beside them and enjoy that they're taking all the aggro and quick completion.

    So that casual player with an effective build in advanced TFO's is either assisting players who are a bit under prepared for advanced TFO's and can be welcomed, taking too many targets too quickly and getting a variety of negative labels, or sometimes just a participant like everybody else with the ability to move around the map being a factor in how they do.
    gad9vMA.jpg
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    Someone who gets a Jugg has a lot of investment in this game and at the very least is almost certainly reading DPS guides/reports to know that they Jugg is able to be the DPS monster it can be.

    Likely, but still an assumption. For all you know, someone bought one key, figured 'what the heck' opened a box and liked the sound of a 'Juggernaut.' Just saying, it's entirely possible that someone in a Juggernaut isn't 'all that.' I realize the scenario you crafted is far more likely, just saying anything is possible. There are also players out there that still think that high DPS just means getting 'the best ship' and mashing space bar. I assure you, there are plenty of terrible players in high dollar ships. :wink:

    reyan01 wrote: »
    Simple fact is that my comments are born from experience. Granted it doesn't happen all that frequently, but in my experience the appearance of a Juggernaught in ISA has almost always resulted in the run lasting about 40 seconds, with the rest of the team desperately scrambling around to find something that wasn't already dead.

    You know I like you, but I still don't get why you hate ISA so much and continue to run it. We used to have these same talks back when all your posts were about the Scimitar years ago. I really think you would enjoy the game a lot more if you just didn't run ISA. I mean c'mon man.. you have to have enough Borg Neural Processors by now right? :lol:

    Of course, I am messing with ya like always.. but really.. ISA is where people go to parse and lets face it.. show off. Probably not the best place in game to be if you're sick of this type of behavior. :smile:
    animated.gif
    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • ikonn#1068 ikonn Member Posts: 1,398 Arc User
    Welcome to MMOs...

    People from all walks of life, differing income levels, differing playstyles, and different desires for what they want out of a game come together. Some chase DPS, others pretend to be something important because they know how to "game" the exchange and get rich on energy credits, know the best ways to dil farm, while others just want to kick back, relax, and murder pixels... it is the Federation's motto isn't it?

    "We come in peace... shoot to kill... shoot to kill"

    As much as I really don't want to come to Cryptic's aid regarding this issue... What can they really do about it? Many of the issues are of their own making from past attempts to "curb" power creep and yet DPS parses go ever higher.

    Why?

    Because players adapt to the changes, do the number-crunching, find new and inventive ways to stack buffs, what weapon/console/trait configurations maximize efficiency and/or damage output for their builds, and use that knowledge to form up controlled environments to where the fruits of their knowledge are the ever-incresing DPS numbers we see posted on the DPS sites.

    Power creep isn't going anywhere. It makes money for Cryptic Studios and helps keep the server running whether we, as players, like it or not. Either we adapt as best fits our playstyle(s) or go play single-player games. Those who complain about other people doing "better" (and I use that word subjectively) aren't really helping their cause.
    -WB- Warrior's Blood (KDF Armada) / -WB- Qu' raD qulbo'Degh / Project Phoenix
    Join Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010
  • colonelmarikcolonelmarik Member Posts: 1,819 Arc User
    The issue I have isn't that people chase dps... it's that the level of dps that CAN be achieved is excessive and trivializes the game. It's not balanced.
    Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!

    This game needs detailed crafting, exploration and interaction systems.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,145 Arc User
    The issue I have isn't that people chase dps... it's that the level of dps that CAN be achieved is excessive and trivializes the game. It's not balanced.

    So how do you balance it when people with the same GEAR do 1000% different DPS? The problem isn't just the gear...the problems is that we have player skills SO different that one can do 1000% of the other WITH THE SAME GEAR.
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    nikephorus wrote: »
    nikephorus wrote: »
    I would like to see Advanced actually made Advanced. Instead of creating a new tier of difficulty between Advanced and Elite, make Advanced hard enough to push under geared and unprepared characters down to ‘normal’ level where they are more comfortable.

    I feel like this will never happen. Under geared players always join advanced for the higher rewards. They don't care if they are unprepared or not comfortable. They just hope someone in there is going to carry them to victory. It's even worse now because Cryptic has removed the failure conditions from a lot of the TFO's.

    Because you're in the head of every "under geared" player and you know with absolute certainty that they just want to be carried.
    Nevermind the fact that there are new players - and new characters - that are under geared because... oh yes, THEY'RE NEW and reputation gear is the easiest way, a part from episode rewards, to get some decent equip that, surprise surprise!, it requires elite marks that, another suprise!, aren't awarded by normal queues.

    But apparently, you very conveniently forgot that you, too, were carried when you started playing. ESPECIALLY if you did so when the failure conditions were still in place.

    Since you like to make baseless assumptions I suppose I can make one as well; -You must be one of those players that enjoys getting carried. There are so many good space sets and other gear now as storyline mission rewards that there is no excuse to go into an Advanced level TFO unprepared for that difficulty. They have three tiers of difficulty for a reason. Play normal if you're that terribly geared that's why it's there. You can still earn your way in that respect rather then hope to get carried in Advanced or Elite. Additionally, you can get elite marks in the rep itself by converting standard reputation marks. I especially enjoyed how you came to the conclusion that every player automatically has to get carried through content at some point. That is obviously false and a poorly constructed argument. I make it a point to never join an advanced level TFO with a character that is unprepared for that difficulty and who will be a burden to the team.

    Sure, I get carried doing everything, even wiping my nose.

    Thank you for the laugh. Now go, "carry" people.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,012 Arc User
    edited January 20
    > @nikephorus said:
    > Since you like to make baseless assumptions I suppose I can make one as well; -You must be one of those players that enjoys getting carried.

    I love it when I can skip posts after the first sentence already.

    Jenny is one of the most reliable wingmen you can get. Her numbers don’t justify the term carried on any map or any difficulty setting. ;)
    Post edited by peterconnorfirst on
    animated.gif
    Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    wishful thinking is not really a reliable source
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    > @nikephorus said:
    > Since you like to make baseless assumptions I suppose I can make one as well; -You must be one of those players that enjoys getting carried.

    I love it when I can skip posts after the first sentence already.

    Jenny is one of the most reliable wingmen you can get. Her numbers don’t justify the term carried on any map or any difficulty setting. ;)

    You only say that because my ships are usually so small I could be one of your pets! ROFL
    Seriously now, thanks Pete. You're also one of the best people to play with!!
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,258 Arc User
    Someone who gets a Jugg has a lot of investment in this game and at the very least is almost certainly reading DPS guides/reports to know that they Jugg is able to be the DPS monster it can be.

    Likely, but still an assumption. For all you know, someone bought one key, figured 'what the heck' opened a box and liked the sound of a 'Juggernaut.' Just saying, it's entirely possible that someone in a Juggernaut isn't 'all that.' I realize the scenario you crafted is far more likely, just saying anything is possible. There are also players out there that still think that high DPS just means getting 'the best ship' and mashing space bar. I assure you, there are plenty of terrible players in high dollar ships. :wink:

    reyan01 wrote: »
    Simple fact is that my comments are born from experience. Granted it doesn't happen all that frequently, but in my experience the appearance of a Juggernaught in ISA has almost always resulted in the run lasting about 40 seconds, with the rest of the team desperately scrambling around to find something that wasn't already dead.

    You know I like you, but I still don't get why you hate ISA so much and continue to run it. We used to have these same talks back when all your posts were about the Scimitar years ago. I really think you would enjoy the game a lot more if you just didn't run ISA. I mean c'mon man.. you have to have enough Borg Neural Processors by now right? :lol:

    Of course, I am messing with ya like always.. but really.. ISA is where people go to parse and lets face it.. show off. Probably not the best place in game to be if you're sick of this type of behavior. :smile:

    I don't run it deliberately - the 'Random' queue system tends to drop me in there sometimes. I almost never queue for it specifically outside of being asked to join friends for a run.


  • nikephorusnikephorus Member Posts: 2,714 Arc User
    > @nikephorus said:
    > Since you like to make baseless assumptions I suppose I can make one as well; -You must be one of those players that enjoys getting carried.

    I love it when I can skip posts after the first sentence already.

    Jenny is one of the most reliable wingmen you can get. Her numbers don’t justify the term carried on any map or any difficulty setting. ;)

    That's why it's called a baseless assumption...just like the one she made. I just gave my opinion and she proceeded to attack me for no real reason and implied that I'm a jerk/idiot.
    Sure, I get carried doing everything, even wiping my nose.

    Thank you for the laugh. Now go, "carry" people.

    Full of fun quips. I'll get right on that -thanks.
    Tza0PEl.png
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