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High DPS players need a new place to whale in public ques...

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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,145 Arc User
    edited January 15

    That's a great attitude to have, but tell me what anyone can learn from an ISA that is < 1 minute total time. When I get those, I'm too busy scrambling to even figure out who is doing what, especially when I do know that part of that success is from someone having a ship and traits I will never own. Again, this isn't an issue of someone struggling with Advanced or normal content.

    To go back to the analogy, if you don't have the height, youth, or ability to focus your life on basketball, there is a limit to what you can do, and that will always be lower than the person who has all that. Still the analogy breaks down because I can't see what equipment that person has, their traits, their skills, their actual key presses and the order and timing of their BOFF and other powers.

    Here's a funny thought...you can TALK to them.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,258 Arc User
    To be honest, as have said in other threads, I avoid ISA as much as possible. I'll occasionally play it if friends particularly want to, or to clear an Endeavour, but otherwise the only other time I'll play it is if I queue for 'Random' and that drops me in there.

    Honestly? I hate ISA. The main reason being that I spend the majority of my time playing a Science character in a T5U-X ship that uses a megawell build. A playstyle that is all too often completely redundant in ISA, where one OP player in a Juggernaught can reduce the TFO to a 35 second spectator sport for the rest of the team.
    I prefer Elite, where my Gravity Wells are still somewhat useful (although am only barely good enough for it); but as has already been identified - it almost never pops.

    Eitherway - I, personally, FAR prefer TFOs where the targets are sufficently spread out and the NPCs actually move (in some cases pretty quickly). Starbase One Advanced, for example, may still be easy but at least I actually get to DO something.



  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    edited January 15
    strathkin wrote: »

    I think that's a very FAIR and reasonable ask, still I avoid Elite missions like the Plague, as do 80-90% or more of the player base; but if there were a few more Elite's, perhaps the whales spend more time in them... ...but not necessarily true either.

    Just to clarify one small point.. doing high DPS doesn't make you a 'whale.'

    I can only speak for myself personally, but I spend very little on this game, during the last wave of end of year sales I spent exactly $0 and haven't spent any 'real' money on this game in years. Some of us have simply been playing a long time, I have been playing fairly constant since 2004, others have played longer. Over that time you learn how to get things in game and I have had plenty of time to save up my in game resources.

    Yes, there are those that just throw their wallet at the screen, and that's fine.. those people keep the lights on for the rest of us, but just because someone can put out good DPS doesn't mean they are one of these players.

    It does seem that one thing all of us agree on is that the difficulty needs an adjustment, at least where normal is concerned. I will use this as an example of what I mean:
    This is about where I am, though I find advanced fairly easy in most ships, it is not remotely appropriate for me to do normal. The last few characters I've leveled never even set foot in a normal queue.

    In a perfect system, that to me.. sounds like what Normal should be brought to. Right now, there is a fairly big difference between normal and advanced and there is a very severe difference from Advanced to Elite. Most people would agree that 'normal'' mode isn't actually normal.. it's more like 'face roll insta win easy.' What I would do personally:

    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.
    2. Rename all current Advanced Queues as normal with no other changes.
    3. Edit the Advanced Queues to be more 'advanced.' Give enemies more HP but less then elites, have them deal more damage, but less then elite, and have fail conditions in Advanced Content. Advanced should not be a guaranteed win.
    4. Leave current Elites like they are and make Elite Versions of those that are currently missing.

    This is a pipe dream, this is not what I expect to happen.. it's just what I would like. No one plays normals.. at all, removing them really sacrifices nothing and since Advanced are currently functioning as normals, might as well call them what they are.

    Now, this solution does not cure the OP's problem. There would be nothing to keep ultra DPS players from ignoring the new Advanced and going 'normal' but at least under this system there would be a valid reason to criticize that player. There is also the possibility that everyone would just ignore the new advanced and everyone would go 'normal' making the new advanced queues meaningless. That would be up to the player base.. you can't control what people do, you can only provide options and hope they take them.
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,258 Arc User
    edited January 15
    strathkin wrote: »

    I think that's a very FAIR and reasonable ask, still I avoid Elite missions like the Plague, as do 80-90% or more of the player base; but if there were a few more Elite's, perhaps the whales spend more time in them... ...but not necessarily true either.

    Just to clarify one small point.. doing high DPS doesn't make you a 'whale.'

    I can only speak for myself personally, but I spend very little on this game, during the last wave of end of year sales I spent exactly $0 and haven't spent any 'real' money on this game in years. Some of us have simply been playing a long time, I have been playing fairly constant since 2004, others have played longer. Over that time you learn how to get things in game and I have had plenty of time to save up my in game resources.

    Yes, there are those that just throw their wallet at the screen, and that's fine.. those people keep the lights on for the rest of us, but just because someone can put out good DPS doesn't mean they are one of these players.

    It does seem that one thing all of us agree on is that the difficulty needs an adjustment, at least where normal is concerned. I will use this as an example of what I mean:
    This is about where I am, though I find advanced fairly easy in most ships, it is not remotely appropriate for me to do normal. The last few characters I've leveled never even set foot in a normal queue.

    In a perfect system, that to me.. sounds like what Normal should be brought to. Right now, there is a fairly big difference between normal and advanced and there is a very severe difference from Advanced to Elite. Most people would agree that 'normal'' mode isn't actually normal.. it's more like 'face roll insta win easy.' What I would do personally:

    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.
    2. Rename all current Advanced Queues as normal with no other changes.
    3. Edit the Advanced Queues to be more 'advanced.' Give enemies more HP but less then elites, have them deal more damage, but less then elite, and have fail conditions in Advanced Content. Advanced should not be a guaranteed win.
    4. Leave current Elites like they are and make Elite Versions of those that are currently missing.

    This is a pipe dream, this is not what I expect to happen.. it's just what I would like. No one plays normals.. at all, removing them really sacrifices nothing and since Advanced are currently functioning as normals, might as well call them what they are.

    Now, this solution does not cure the OP's problem. There would be nothing to keep ultra DPS players from ignoring the new Advanced and going 'normal' but at least under this system there would be a valid reason to criticize that player. There is also the possibility that everyone would just ignore the new advanced and everyone would go 'normal' making the new advanced queues meaningless. That would be up to the player base.. you can't control what people do, you can only provide options and hope they take them.

    The 'Red Alerts' highlight just how preposterously easy "Normal" is, to be honest.

    I mean, my best DPS score to-date was 78k in my Inquiry class (tactical char) and even that is stupidly OP for the Red Alerts.


  • sheldonlcoopersheldonlcooper Member Posts: 3,933 Arc User
    edited January 15
    no reason to delta rising the advanced queues due to a small and occasional annoyance.

    Would you object if it was done in conjunction to a buff in rewards for Normal Queues? So that you no longer were forced to play advanced?

    Just curious.

    No, I wouldn't be interested. Normal is good for the events of course. Everyone pretty much plays them then. Speed is good then, eh? Maybe the event normals are slightly more difficult? I'm not sure. But outside of events I'm not sure who normal is for. Maybe people who have just leveled a new character to be able to play tfo.

    Ever since the delta rising normal has been an insult. It's been clear all these years that advanced is where a 'normal player' is supposed to play.

    Look, my science captains can handle elite. The others, well, I stink at tac so they belong in advanced.

    I have never had a complaint with a fast ISA. Ok, great, I'll play something else now if I still feel like it. Who cares if you get a fast one from time to time. Good. It only costs a minute of your time. Now play another.

    Since delta rising I've taken the position on the forum to advocate for the average or casual player. As I say, I am not one of those players with regard to science. Yet I feel it's important to stand up for them. Making advanced have more HP sponges is against that so I am against the idea.

    edit: I see you are also arguing for fail conditions to be added. That is a fail.
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  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,653 Arc User
    There is a finite amount of HP to beat up in most queues, especially something like ISA. If someone who does 1000000 DPS enters that queue, the other 4 players are going to have to scramble to do any damage whatsoever. It has nothing to do with them not being good enough, but because they don't perform at ELITE level when an elite level player slums in advanced, they suffer.

    It is no different than some pro basketball player joining your neighborhood game and dunks left and right on the other team. Ignoring what the other team feels, you on his team now feel pretty useless because he can run away with the ball and score every time, you don't get to make any plays yourself, you don't get to score, you just watch because he's so much better than amateurs that he can get the ball and score with it easily, every time. There's no struggle, no challenge, no actual game for you.

    While true, this is easily fixed by teaming with people you know whom you all share similar performance with each other.
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  • khazlolkhazlol Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited January 15
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    that might be a bit extreme, i think new players and levelers use those. it still takes quite a while to get comfortable in advanced queues without swiping the credit card a few times.

  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,653 Arc User
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    No. Not all players are 10+year vets.

    Dear Devs: I enjoyed the Legacy of Romulus expansion much more than the Delta Rising expansion. .
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    khazlol wrote: »
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    that might be a bit extreme, i think new players and levelers use those. it still takes quite a while to get comfortable in advanced queues without swiping the credit card a few times.

    To be fair, you only highlighted the first part of my suggestion and the suggestion is not valid on it’s own. Step 2 was rename all current Advanced Queues as Normal, so there would still be ‘Normal’ it would just be the actual “Normal” which is the current Advanced. It’s a naming change only since right now Advanced is the real Normal.

    Just removing Normal as a stand alone solution is not a viable option.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,770 Community Moderator
    edited January 15
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Here's a funny thought...you can TALK to them.

    That's assuming they are
    A: WILLING to talk.
    B: Even have their chat box open in the first place.
    C: Actually kind enough to offer advice.
    D : Not the kind of elitist who will just say "Get Gud" and tell you to F off noob.

    The fact of the matter is you just don't know. You COULD get someone willing to help, or you could get someone who doesn't care, just wants their reward, and doesn't want to interact because they got other rewards to get in other queues.

    While there are those who ARE willing to sit down with someone and go over build advice, there's just as many who just don't give a frak.

    And all this... is assuming they don't just hit the leave button the second it pops up.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,145 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > That's assuming they are
    > A: WILLING to talk.
    > B: Even have their chat box open in the first place.
    > C: Actually kind enough to offer advice.
    > D : Not the kind of elitist who will just say "Get Gud" and tell you to F off noob.
    >
    > The fact of the matter is you just don't know. You COULD get someone willing to help, or you could get someone who doesn't care, just wants their reward, and doesn't want to interact because they got other rewards to get in other queues.
    >
    > While there are those who ARE willing to sit down with someone and go over build advice, there's just as many who just don't give a frak.
    >
    > And all this... is assuming they don't just hit the leave button the second it pops up.

    Whisper is your friend. You can whisper somebody after the map. Yes, they CAN be a jerk...or they can talk and help. Most high DPS peeps are actually quite nice since the numbers league pretty much went away. And if they are not, oh no, so much lost talking with someone. If they are a major D bag, ignore is there for a reason.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,368 Arc User
    edited January 15
    reyan01 wrote: »
    strathkin wrote: »

    I think that's a very FAIR and reasonable ask, still I avoid Elite missions like the Plague, as do 80-90% or more of the player base; but if there were a few more Elite's, perhaps the whales spend more time in them... ...but not necessarily true either.

    Just to clarify one small point.. doing high DPS doesn't make you a 'whale.'

    I can only speak for myself personally, but I spend very little on this game, during the last wave of end of year sales I spent exactly $0 and haven't spent any 'real' money on this game in years. Some of us have simply been playing a long time, I have been playing fairly constant since 2004, others have played longer. Over that time you learn how to get things in game and I have had plenty of time to save up my in game resources.

    Yes, there are those that just throw their wallet at the screen, and that's fine.. those people keep the lights on for the rest of us, but just because someone can put out good DPS doesn't mean they are one of these players.

    It does seem that one thing all of us agree on is that the difficulty needs an adjustment, at least where normal is concerned. I will use this as an example of what I mean:
    This is about where I am, though I find advanced fairly easy in most ships, it is not remotely appropriate for me to do normal. The last few characters I've leveled never even set foot in a normal queue.

    In a perfect system, that to me.. sounds like what Normal should be brought to. Right now, there is a fairly big difference between normal and advanced and there is a very severe difference from Advanced to Elite. Most people would agree that 'normal'' mode isn't actually normal.. it's more like 'face roll insta win easy.' What I would do personally:

    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.
    2. Rename all current Advanced Queues as normal with no other changes.
    3. Edit the Advanced Queues to be more 'advanced.' Give enemies more HP but less then elites, have them deal more damage, but less then elite, and have fail conditions in Advanced Content. Advanced should not be a guaranteed win.
    4. Leave current Elites like they are and make Elite Versions of those that are currently missing.

    This is a pipe dream, this is not what I expect to happen.. it's just what I would like. No one plays normals.. at all, removing them really sacrifices nothing and since Advanced are currently functioning as normals, might as well call them what they are.

    Now, this solution does not cure the OP's problem. There would be nothing to keep ultra DPS players from ignoring the new Advanced and going 'normal' but at least under this system there would be a valid reason to criticize that player. There is also the possibility that everyone would just ignore the new advanced and everyone would go 'normal' making the new advanced queues meaningless. That would be up to the player base.. you can't control what people do, you can only provide options and hope they take them.

    The 'Red Alerts' highlight just how preposterously easy "Normal" is, to be honest.

    I mean, my best DPS score to-date was 78k in my Inquiry class (tactical char) and even that is stupidly OP for the Red Alerts.
    Every time the Red Alerts event comes up I get reminded just how massive the powercreep has been over the years. Long gone are the days when Red Alerts and the big unimatrix was something to look forward with a battle that lasted a while. The regen probes used to matter and you had to kill them fist. Now we hardly even notice the regen probes partly because well everything dies so fast and partly because visual spam is so bad these days.

    On the plus side my biggest complaint in the past about PvP was how we had to change all our traits, doffs e.c.t for PvP. Swapping between PvP and PvE was so time consuming I stopped doing PvP just from that . This thread has reminded me that is now fixed and I need to save some PvP loadouts. Something the devs got right, the new loadouts are so much better (bar the trait loss bug).

    Although when the PvP Endeavor is on I feel really bad taking a PvP Loadout so I take a causal PvE loadout into PvP, but even that doesn't feel enough when the PvP Endeavor is on and all these inexperienced come in and die in seconds. Not sure what to do. The problem is not just the toxic experienced PvP people but very often the inexperienced PvPers have no interest in learning or improving there PvP build.


  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    That's a great attitude to have, but tell me what anyone can learn from an ISA that is < 1 minute total time. When I get those, I'm too busy scrambling to even figure out who is doing what, especially when I do know that part of that success is from someone having a ship and traits I will never own. Again, this isn't an issue of someone struggling with Advanced or normal content.

    To go back to the analogy, if you don't have the height, youth, or ability to focus your life on basketball, there is a limit to what you can do, and that will always be lower than the person who has all that. Still the analogy breaks down because I can't see what equipment that person has, their traits, their skills, their actual key presses and the order and timing of their BOFF and other powers.

    Here's a funny thought...you can TALK to them.

    Sure, but what does that solve? Again, the issue isn't that someone is having trouble with advanced, its that people that obliterate advanced jump in with advanced level players. If the other 4 then talk to the mega DPSer, then we pretend that they all gain that person's knowledge and can wipe the floor with advanced now, well now we have 4 more wiping the floor with advanced content?
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,011 Arc User
    edited January 15
    > Honestly? I hate ISA. The main reason being that I spend the majority of my time playing a Science character in a T5U-X ship that uses a megawell build. A playstyle that is all too often completely redundant in ISA, where one OP player in a Juggernaught can reduce the TFO to a 35 second spectator sport for the rest of the team..

    I can smash ISA with FAW scimis, Beam overload discoprises, cannon build juggers, torp Tzenkethi dreads and exotic temporal sci ships.

    I can DPS, tank, support and even do all of it a bit at the same time.

    So can you... and the OP! :)
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  • delerouxdeleroux Member Posts: 470 Arc User
    Sure, but what does that solve? Again, the issue isn't that someone is having trouble with advanced, its that people that obliterate advanced jump in with advanced level players. If the other 4 then talk to the mega DPSer, then we pretend that they all gain that person's knowledge and can wipe the floor with advanced now, well now we have 4 more wiping the floor with advanced content?

    Moreover...and maybe I'm a minority in this regard, IDK... but I'm not even particularly interested in becoming a mega DPSer. Melting everything with complete ease doesn't appeal to me. Maybe that is odd, IDK. But I prioritize other things, like flavor and theme. It's a fine line, I suppose, because I don't want to feel underpowered either. But as long as the build is functional and can adequately perform for the content, that's really all it needs to do in terms of mechanics. And that generally isn't too difficult to achieve. Advanced may not be what I'd consider "hard" in most cases, but I'm also not interested in making it trivial, or more trivial.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,653 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Here's a funny thought...you can TALK to them.

    Socialize with other people in a MMORPG???

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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 1,961 Arc User
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    edited January 16
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.

    lol.. unreal.

    Again, read the entire idea.. I have agreed already that just removing Normals and doing nothing else is a terrible idea. That's why I posted it as part of a suggestion that still leaves all 3 tiers of content. It was not as a stand alone idea.
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,145 Arc User
    edited January 16
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.

    lol.. unreal.

    Again, read the entire idea.. I have agreed already that just removing Normals and doing nothing else is a terrible idea. That's why I posted it as part of a suggestion that still leaves all 3 tiers of content. It was not as a stand alone idea.

    Except you want the current advanced to be the new normal. The problem is, we have a rather large subset of players who can't do that without getting carried...i.e. they actually need the current normal mode, but enter advanced because they need elite marks and leeches. So what needs to happen is the current normal gets the advanced rewards. Advanced mobs gets double HP and double damage and gives elite rewards and elite needs to give double what it gives now.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    edited January 16
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.

    lol.. unreal.

    Again, read the entire idea.. I have agreed already that just removing Normals and doing nothing else is a terrible idea. That's why I posted it as part of a suggestion that still leaves all 3 tiers of content. It was not as a stand alone idea.

    Except you want the current advanced to be the new normal. The problem is, we have a rather large subset of players who can't do that without getting carried...i.e. they actually need the current normal mode, but enter advanced because they need elite marks and leeches. So what needs to happen is the current normal gets the advanced rewards. Advanced mobs gets double HP and double damage and gives elite rewards and elite needs to give double what it gives now.

    There are still players that can't do 'advanced?' seriously.. how is that possible when it's impossible to fail?

    If you queue for normals, they don't even pop because everyone is in Advanced.. it honestly seems like Advanced is actually 'Normal.'

    I guess if there are players that actually need the current normals then yes, you can't replace them.. I just find it incredible that there are people that use them. You can't even fail advanced, how much more basic can they get? :lol:

    Thank you for at least posting a reason instead of just taking one line and arguing that, refreshing to see someone actually read the idea even if they don't agree with it.
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  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 727 Arc User
    edited January 16
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.

    lol.. unreal.

    Again, read the entire idea.. I have agreed already that just removing Normals and doing nothing else is a terrible idea. That's why I posted it as part of a suggestion that still leaves all 3 tiers of content. It was not as a stand alone idea.

    Except you want the current advanced to be the new normal. The problem is, we have a rather large subset of players who can't do that without getting carried...i.e. they actually need the current normal mode, but enter advanced because they need elite marks and leeches. So what needs to happen is the current normal gets the advanced rewards. Advanced mobs gets double HP and double damage and gives elite rewards and elite needs to give double what it gives now.

    There are still players that can't do 'advanced?' seriously.. how is that possible when it's impossible to fail?

    If you queue for normals, they don't even pop because everyone is in Advanced.. it honestly seems like Advanced is actually 'Normal.'

    I guess if there are players that actually need the current normals then yes, you can't replace them.. I just find it incredible that there are people that use them. You can't even fail advanced, how much more basic can they get? :lol:

    Thank you for at least posting a reason instead of just taking one line and arguing that, refreshing to see someone actually read the idea even if they don't agree with it.

    wow aren't you just the arrogant TRIBBLE. it's such a shame not all of us are so godly in everything you do in life...

    You are probably the jerk that calls out people trying TFOs that they suck and should not be playing YOUR game, like I have seen quotes a dozen times on these forums.
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  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 6,011 Arc User
    edited January 16
    nixie50 wrote: »

    wow aren't you just the arrogant TRIBBLE. it's such a shame not all of us are so godly in everything you do in life...

    You are probably the jerk that calls out people trying TFOs that they suck and should not be playing YOUR game, like I have seen quotes a dozen times on these forums.

    LOL!!! :D

    If I had to name three things positive out of this horrible mess of a game meeting Sea would be among it!

    You have so no clue dude. He has always been helping others even the most hopless candidates like... oh well. In any case you should seriously check yourself before you trek yourself like that!!! :|
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    felisean wrote: »
    teamwork to reach a goal is awesome and highly appreciated
    Bring it on
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  • reptilecynrikreptilecynrik Member Posts: 8 Arc User
    nixie50 wrote: »
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.

    lol.. unreal.

    Again, read the entire idea.. I have agreed already that just removing Normals and doing nothing else is a terrible idea. That's why I posted it as part of a suggestion that still leaves all 3 tiers of content. It was not as a stand alone idea.

    Except you want the current advanced to be the new normal. The problem is, we have a rather large subset of players who can't do that without getting carried...i.e. they actually need the current normal mode, but enter advanced because they need elite marks and leeches. So what needs to happen is the current normal gets the advanced rewards. Advanced mobs gets double HP and double damage and gives elite rewards and elite needs to give double what it gives now.

    There are still players that can't do 'advanced?' seriously.. how is that possible when it's impossible to fail?

    If you queue for normals, they don't even pop because everyone is in Advanced.. it honestly seems like Advanced is actually 'Normal.'

    I guess if there are players that actually need the current normals then yes, you can't replace them.. I just find it incredible that there are people that use them. You can't even fail advanced, how much more basic can they get? :lol:

    Thank you for at least posting a reason instead of just taking one line and arguing that, refreshing to see someone actually read the idea even if they don't agree with it.

    wow aren't you just the arrogant TRIBBLE. it's such a shame not all of us are so godly in everything you do in life...

    You are probably the jerk that calls out people trying TFOs that they suck and should not be playing YOUR game, like I have seen quotes a dozen times on these forums.


    Man, get some help or maybe get some information about a person before just calling names! You have no idea what you're talking about. Also, calling names and stuff like this is always a clear signal that you haven't got any valid arguments... so the last resort is behaving like a child.
    Sea is a great friend and he's supporting players for years!! But like I said... valid arguments are a waste of time I suppose.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,145 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    1. Remove all Normal queues completely.

    do that and the game is gone within 6 months.

    lol.. unreal.

    Again, read the entire idea.. I have agreed already that just removing Normals and doing nothing else is a terrible idea. That's why I posted it as part of a suggestion that still leaves all 3 tiers of content. It was not as a stand alone idea.

    Except you want the current advanced to be the new normal. The problem is, we have a rather large subset of players who can't do that without getting carried...i.e. they actually need the current normal mode, but enter advanced because they need elite marks and leeches. So what needs to happen is the current normal gets the advanced rewards. Advanced mobs gets double HP and double damage and gives elite rewards and elite needs to give double what it gives now.

    There are still players that can't do 'advanced?' seriously.. how is that possible when it's impossible to fail?

    If you queue for normals, they don't even pop because everyone is in Advanced.. it honestly seems like Advanced is actually 'Normal.'

    I guess if there are players that actually need the current normals then yes, you can't replace them.. I just find it incredible that there are people that use them. You can't even fail advanced, how much more basic can they get? :lol:

    Thank you for at least posting a reason instead of just taking one line and arguing that, refreshing to see someone actually read the idea even if they don't agree with it.

    Well...the thing is, there are people that do need normal...but don't play it because it doesn't reward the elite marks. Hence why it needs the reward change. Pay attention in the red alerts. You will see groups of 3 player ships in the borg one where they can't take down a group in the time it takes the other 2 to wipe out the 4 groups needed for the pickle pretty often. And while most maps have an auto complete time gate these days so you can't technically fail the map, when you kill nothing and keep dying repeatedly, it's not exactly a fun experience. And on maps like gravity kills advanced where I have to relegate myself to get the particles because nobody else will do it even if I have the highest DPS in the group for clearing the mobs at the stations or defending the Jupiter so that neither gets done...I see the other players completely unable to do either of those things and die repeatedly. Hell, even in gravity kills normal, this happens. And while more people seems to be getting out of the range of needing the current normal difficulty and being ready for the current advanced, yes there is still a rather large chunk that is not. I remember even a year ago, I would consistently be wiping out all 4 borg groups in a RA before the other 4 could wipe out even one if I did not stop to let them get their DPS in. That hasn't happened yet this RA event. But that could be because more casuals are leaving...or it could be that the casuals are getting better. Regardless, yes we have players that need and should be in normal (but aren't because of no elite marks).
  • delerouxdeleroux Member Posts: 470 Arc User
    edited January 16
    If you queue for normals, they don't even pop because everyone is in Advanced.. it honestly seems like Advanced is actually 'Normal.'


    This isn't correct.

    I recently returned from a long hiatus from the game, and upon returning began queuing for normals to get reacclimated with everything, and get back into the swing of things. They were popping.

  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    edited January 16
    nixie50 wrote: »
    wow aren't you just the arrogant TRIBBLE. it's such a shame not all of us are so godly in everything you do in life...

    You are probably the jerk that calls out people trying TFOs that they suck and should not be playing YOUR game, like I have seen quotes a dozen times on these forums.

    I am not going to spend too much time on this, but I will address it. The reason I am surprised that anyone would play normal is because Advanced has better rewards with a 100% success rate. Failure was removed from Advanced as an option so there is literally no reason to play normal. That is my reason for saying that no one needs Normal mode, they already have a more rewarding variant with a 100% success rate. If you feel that makes me arrogant then I am not sure what to tell you. I have stated many times that I don't consider myself an Elite player, I just play with some Elite guys.. I am not one of the games top players and never claimed to be. If you have been around the forums long enough to see these quotes 'dozens of times,' then I would think you would know that, but I guess not. You're welcome to your opinion, but I am not interested in arguing over your misguided perception of me. I will say that I can assure you, I don't consider myself great because I can play Advanced Queues. That's a pretty strange take away from all this.

    Thank you to @peterconnorfirst and @reptilecynrik for the kind words, as always you guys are the best.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    Well...the thing is, there are people that do need normal...but don't play it because it doesn't reward the elite marks. Hence why it needs the reward change. Pay attention in the red alerts. You will see groups of 3 player ships in the borg one where they can't take down a group in the time it takes the other 2 to wipe out the 4 groups needed for the pickle pretty often. And while most maps have an auto complete time gate these days so you can't technically fail the map, when you kill nothing and keep dying repeatedly, it's not exactly a fun experience. And on maps like gravity kills advanced where I have to relegate myself to get the particles because nobody else will do it even if I have the highest DPS in the group for clearing the mobs at the stations or defending the Jupiter so that neither gets done...I see the other players completely unable to do either of those things and die repeatedly. Hell, even in gravity kills normal, this happens. And while more people seems to be getting out of the range of needing the current normal difficulty and being ready for the current advanced, yes there is still a rather large chunk that is not. I remember even a year ago, I would consistently be wiping out all 4 borg groups in a RA before the other 4 could wipe out even one if I did not stop to let them get their DPS in. That hasn't happened yet this RA event. But that could be because more casuals are leaving...or it could be that the casuals are getting better. Regardless, yes we have players that need and should be in normal (but aren't because of no elite marks).

    Ya know, people bash on you for attacking people or 'being mean' quite a bit, but you continue to prove that you just return what people dish out. I proposed an idea, you disagree but realized the intent that the idea was presented with and respond appropriately. You have some good points that I haven't considered and thanks for that. I'll be the first one to admit that I am probably out of touch with the plight of a new player to STO. After so many years of playing, it's just difficult for me to see this game as anything other then a game that anyone can excel in with little to no effort. I was considering Advanced as more of a normal queue since these players can't fail.. but you have made some good points. Many are probably getting by on the skill of others and might still need the easiest content possible.. so very well. I will concede that a better idea might just be a rework of the rewards for Normal mode. The intent was to funnel the bulk of the player base into the mode that was most appropriate for them, if Advanced really isn't that mode then so be it. Perhaps a rework of the Normal mode would be better, but I would still cap them at 1 Elite Mark per rep per day. They are being rewarded for literally nothing after all, the only way it could be easier is to just give everyone elite marks for logging in every day. :lol:

    Thanks again for actually taking the time to reply with actual points that ya know.. made sense.
    deleroux wrote: »
    This isn't correct.

    I recently returned from a long hiatus from the game, and upon returning began queuing for normals to get reacclimated with everything, and get back into the swing of things. They were popping.

    Fair enough, I haven't queued for them in quite some time. I don't have any current information to dispute you so good to know that it's at least possible to run them. I honestly would have thought everyone would skip them for the guaranteed higher rewards of Advanced. I guess not.
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,530 Bug Hunter
    edited January 17
    strathkin wrote: »

    I think that's a very FAIR and reasonable ask, still I avoid Elite missions like the Plague, as do 80-90% or more of the player base; but if there were a few more Elite's, perhaps the whales spend more time in them... ...but not necessarily true either.

    Just to clarify one small point.. here I'm quoting myself, not your reply. Note also the thread subject. I agree doing high DPS doesn't make you a 'whale.', yet still often DPS players spend a lot to pursue it. Others or many don't care about DPS, they spend to unlock new ships, features, or trying new things. Far more enjoy the adventure, than they do chasing DPS, myself included. <3

    So I also believe its not be wise to remove Normal, as new Players getting introduced to the game require it. It's also why Cryptic set events to use it. If players could choose normal or advanced as I commented in the other thread, then the normal queue would never spawn, limiting new players being able to finish if their new, still on to level their character, or upgrading gear beyond Mk X Rare/Very Rare out to Mk XV EPIC.

    NOTE: In the other thread, I agreed with you seaofsorrows, as well as peterconnorfirst and even 1 other individual. And even Pinged the CM so he'd read it next week. So I try to be fair to everyone, and treat everyone with respect. Also realize, I'm not suggesting you didn't either.

    I'm alright if they slightly expanded HP for some enemy, but not far beyond 10-20% either, and wouldn't want enemy damage increased either.

    As I noted in the other thread, despite endeavors, MW ships, or now Experimental upgrades, many of these have often seen NERFs to abilities, months preceding endeavors introduction, or the others mentioned as well.

    Just getting to 10K makes many happy, others are fine at 25k, yet at 35k, that's often where most plateau -- many are still there years later. Chasing DPS isn't something many enjoy, even as they've increased all gear, consoles, and everything from Mk XIV Ultra, out to XV now Epic quality, while unlocking all 5 trait's; this included as they introduced MW ships, or now Experimental's ships too. Nerf's often proceeded many of those enhancements months earlier, that offset 75-90% of those enhancements.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline/#/discussion/1259414/sto-is-in-dire-need-of-a-full-rebalancing

    Far more like me, just enjoy seeing new people join the adventure, having new Ships to fly or try out, uniforms, or unlocking other features; in addition to new people who join their Fleet's or Armadas.
    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,923 Arc User
    strathkin wrote: »
    NOTE: In the other thread, I agreed with you seaofsorrows, as well as peterconnorfirst and even 1 other individual. And even Pinged the CM so he'd read it next week. So I try to be fair to everyone, and treat everyone with respect. Also realize, I'm not suggesting you didn't either. I also don't think it's wise, to expand HP of enemy far beyond 10-20% either, and wouldn't want to see damage increased either

    I feel you have been more then fair and respectful and I appreciate you contributions to the discussion. There have been a few people that didn’t agree and presented their reasons in a concise and respectful fashion that has furthered the discussion. I have been shown some problems with the original ideas that I proposed and it’s definitely caused me to rethink things. Game balance is always a complicated issue and the solution is also rarely anything simple. This is why this is an issue in just about every online game you will ever play. :smile:
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    Discovery is good, it's you that sucks.
  • strathkinstrathkin Member Posts: 1,530 Bug Hunter
    edited January 17
    Yes, I again find myself agreeing with you, and think everyone spends a lot of time debating & re-evaluating things--were all intelligent, and learn as we experience new things. :)
    Post edited by strathkin on
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  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 823 Arc User
    Well, this escalated quickly...

    Anyway, I'm once again reiterating that @seaofsorrows is not arrogant at all. I've seen him trying to help out people on this forums on numerous occasions and not once doing it with anything but patience and understanding.

    It's understandable that those of us that have played for many years are kind of out of touch with how new players are experiencing the game and, as such, we don't always stop to think that what's basic and easy for us may not be so for someone that just started playing.
    I try, but I'm not always successfull.

    That said, I wouldn't mind having a new difficulty added in-between Advanced and Elite. One that have fails conditions like Elite queues - fail conditions that, in my opinion, should be present in Advanced too, but that's neither here nor there - while not being as difficult... and of course, having appropriate rewards.

    For people having a hard time in Advanced, which can happen and there's absolutely no shame or anything wrong with it, Normal should be the preferred difficulty. But of course, one needs Elite Marks for reputation gear and, while you can get those with patience by converting marks once per day per reputation, it's increndly tedious work.

    In that regards, I've always felt that Normal should give out a choice rewards: marks or elite marks, while higher difficulties award boths in higher quantity depending on the difficulty itself, as it is now.

    Of course, this may not resolve the problem of those griefers that find it funny to try and give others an AFK penalty because they can put out hundreds of thousands of DPS and feel the need to go and "trash" others in less difficult queues.
    Unfortunately, I don't think there really is anything you can do to stop THEM. A troll will always be a troll no matter what you do.
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    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
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