I am surprised that no one in the 23rd or 24th Century ever thought of using an army of transporter duplicates in Star Trek. If one Kirk could save numerous worlds, then what about a thousand Kirks with their own Enterprises?
Cloning is easier. The, admittedly non-canon, background information for the TMP aliens says that the Arcturians are a race of 100 billion clones, that are able to ready a 20 billion strong army overnight.
Much easier then trying to get the exact specifications of transporter duplicates correct.
Cloning requires having the clones grow up at an accelerated rate and transfer the memories to each clone. Transporter duplicates only requires the pattern of the original, enough energy, and perhaps matter to create the duplicates. Transporters work by disintegrating the original and creating a copy at a designated area. So every person that uses a transporter is a transporter duplicate that has the original destroyed.
> @somtaawkhar said: > The Kelvin timeline is a different quantum universe altogether, it just had the same history as the Prime Timeline up until Nero's incursion point.
This is how I've always viewed it too as a separate permutation of the prime universe like all the ones in parallels that was very similar but with a few subtle but not derailing differences. The biggest difference before 2233 in that universe appears to be the use of 0 in 4 digit ship registries but then the black hole deposited the narada and boom big old divergence.
But as basically every time travel plot in trek shows us time doesn't split in tapes over.
Neither the transporter killing the user nor the alternate quantum reality of the Kelvin timeline is canon, however.
Transporters just transport one in a beam of light from A to B - "duplicates" and "patterns" exist, but those are freak occurences. However the fan theory of every transport resulting in a clone was never explained nor found in background material, it's just not supposed to be that way. And the Kelvin Timeline is exactly that, a timeline. It is the same universe up until Nero's incursion - yes, that doesn't work out with some things because nobody bothered to do research before they wrote the movie, but canonically it's just another timeline.
^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
"No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
"A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
"That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
Good writing can sometimes be predicted, but more often bad writing is the more predictable because it is generally over simplistic and unimaginative. Take mysteries for example, a good one keeps you guessing until the end, while a bad one generally follows a hackneyed course and is obvious fairly early on (such as minor variants of "the butler did it") or has a character that only appears in the last few pages who "did it" just to make sure the reader does not guess who the villain is earlier (to use an extreme example for illustration).
Unfortunately, the action movie format that DSC uses is full of those problems because all thought goes into the rule of cool and not into plot and dialog.
Discovery isn't a mystery story though. It may have mysterious elements in it, but that doesn't make it a mystery story. So why you are holding it to up an entirely different genre is beyond me.
In that second one you missed the point entirely, to Roseanne Roseannadanna levels in fact. I am not sure how you even got to that conclusion from what I said. I was pointing out how nonsensical Kurtzman's "molecules want to go home" thing was by taking it to the logical conclusion of his illogic and using warp drive as one of several examples.
No more nonsensical then Fluidic Space, or time travel causes sensory problems, or going transwarp turning you into a salamander, or any of the other silly Trekisms, are.
Also, the issue is not cosmology, in fact the structure you talk about has never been thrashed out in the shows so the relationships between various dimensions/universes/quantum realms is not formalized. You are letting the words get in the way of the concepts. Yes, there is the moldy quantum superstring string layer in 'prime' but nowhere does it say for certain whether it is unique to 'prime' and somehow interacts with other unique superstring layers or whether it is all the same layer running though all of them.
Dimension DOES mean the same thing as universe and as timeline often as not in the sloppy way they have always done it in Trek, which makes sense because the characters are just guessing about what they are seeing in the first place. And that itself is realistic since in theory quantum realities tend to be inherently self-contradictory dichotomies so they are often more than one of those labels simultaneously. At least the traditional Trek series didn't make the mistake of tying plot points to arbitrary labels instead of concepts quite as much as Kurtzman's bunch are doing.
No, it literally doesn't, nor has it ever. but I am going to assume this is another one of those words you use, but don't actually know the meaning of, like canon, headcanon, fanon, retcon, twink, and all the other things you have been busted on.
Our universe, in real life, is made up of multiple spatial dimensions. We exist in 3rd dimensional space, but 4th dimensional space is also theorized to exist. No one considers it another universe. It's just a different plane of our universe. And this is how Star Trek treats things like the Mycelial Realm, and Fluidic Space. Different planes that are a part of our universe, that also have counterparts in other universes.
The only thing these words are getting in the way of is your fiction, that isn't supported by Trek itself.
And no, we didn't see a similar thing to Georgiou's problem happen in Relativity at all. Relativity was a a good example of the classic fold story instead. Seven's molecules never decided they wanted to pack up and go home, what was happening is that she was getting sensory distortions from the paradox of being in too many places at once, compounded by holding open too many paradox branches before the finishing stroke that cut them off/released them/whatever.
Except this isn't true at all. The stated problem in the episode Relativity was time travel itself was the cause of the issues, not how many paradoxes of her exist. Braxton suffered from the same issues owning to the number of times he time traveled to try to fix Voyager's problems, not due to there being many paradoxal versions of him running around.
And that too many at once problem is supported by other episodes, like when Kirk was split along personal and moral trait lines but had to re-merge because of a mysterious malady they both suffered from. The only exception to that was Ryker and his successful long term split, but that is easily explained if he was a human chimera before the split (they are rare but do really exist) and he had two souls (or whatever you want to call it) in sync in that combined body that each took one of the physical copies so both were fully functional separately. That duplicate problem is implied to be why transporter clones are not usually viable, the copy is usually DOA.
In fact, had Voyager succeeded in stabilizing both copies of the ship in Deadlock most of the crews would probably have fallen victim to the same effect eventually, with the exception of Kim, the baby, and whoever else lacked a duplicate.
A. Kirk was split along good and evil, not personal and moral. Those two things are not the same.
B. It wasn't mysterious. Bones states the transport splitting weakened their bodily functions.
C. Riker, not Ryker, wasn't a Chimera, and didn't have two souls. He just had a better transport duplication error owning to the better transporters of the era, and the differences in exotic phenomena that split him compared to Kirk. That is what makes transporter duplicates rare.
D. Voyager wouldn't have had the same problem because they were timeline duplicates, not transporter ones.
E. None of this has anything to do with what we are talking about since none of these are either universe jumping, or moving forward/backward in time to any real degree.
Nothing in traditional Trek supports that molecules just deciding to up and go home nonsense, even All Our Yesterdays, which is the closest it gets to that was a matter of entropy levels, and the Georgiou problem cannot be entropy since she comes from the same time as everyone else on the ship so she would have the same entropy level.
The fact that she came from the mirror universe originally wouldn't even factor in since The Alternative Factor establishes that anything crossing from another universe gets its phases and polarities adjusted to match the the one they are entering, the only problem is when two of the exact same thing come across at the same time the first one blocks the second from getting properly adjusted and can cause leakage across the universal barrier. And that would only be a problem if two were alive and existing at once (in fact the time jump would probably fix the problem if that were the case rather than cause more problems).
Mirror, Mirror itself uses that same idea in its own way, the transporter could not send anyone across one-way, it had to be a swap or it would take infinite energy to accomplish. DS9 dropped the ball on that one unfortunately, and DSC compounded the error, but the end result is the same for Georgiou, since her prime version is dead she slots into prime like a native on a quantum level (in fact, her relative mellowing could be a result of that adjustment to some extent).
Entropy was never mentioned in "All Our Yesterdays". The reason why people couldn't go back was because they were "prepared", via some sort of scientific alteration, so that they fit in with the past. Its also contradicted by all other time travel episodes in Trek, suggesting its a problem with that planet's people, or the technology they used. Bones suffered no problem, and Spock had already been shown to be telepathically linked to all other Vulcans, even ones on starships many LY away, which would explain his change of attitude. But thats telepathy issues, not entropy.
That isn't "The Alternative Factor" episode says at all. The two Lazarus entries come from a matter, and anti matter, universe. Except, instead of antimatter just exploding on contact with any matter, it has to be the matter/antimatter duplicate of the same particles which would cause the destruction of everything somehow. There is no mention of phases, polarities, in the episode.
That's also not what happened in Mirror Mirror either. They sent people over via switching because that is how the ion storm worked in the first switch, and thus, was the only way they knew who to recreate the phenomena. Its also never stated it would take infinite energy to accomplish otherwise, just that they only had the energy from the warp drives to do it that way.
Everything you said throughout your post to try to justify your position is, quite literally, 100% made up fan fiction never mentioned, or even implied, in the episodes themselves. Its literally astonishing how much you just make things up with no research.
I used the mystery genre as an example because it is the clearest and most straightforward way of illustrating the point and I thought you would get the idea easier that way. I guess I was wrong since you obviously did not get the point.
And yes, Trek has some nonsensical stuff (though less than you seem to think), but DSC (and PIC) takes the cake in that regard with the highest frequency and severity of nonsense. It is sad when a spoof like Lower Decks makes more sense than the current dramas of the same franchise.
Our universe in real life is theorized to have wildly differing numbers of dimensions depending on which theory you look at, but the minimum is usually considered four, not three, because we have time and not just space.
And you are the one obsessed with labels, not me. Traditionally the show is messy, just like the real world is, and things do not always fit into neat absolute pigeonholes. If you object to the way I phrase things or how I point out that there is overlap in the concepts presented in the shows then you are welcome to your own headcanon version of things, but using a subset of meaning and cherrypicked artificial differentiation to try and gatekeep doesn't make your interpretation the only right one.
The stated problem in Relitivity was the building paradox level (and they frequently read off the numbers), I watched the episode again before I made the post you are quoting to make sure I remembered it right. Try listening to the dialog and watching the body language instead of reading it in transcript or whatever you are doing.
Multiple "recruitments" of her were a bigger concern than simply the number of incursions, and the paradox level of the whole situation was a major concern as well. It is definitely a fold situation dependent upon the number of incursions into that particular paradox node, not the total number of times Seven has ever gone time travelling, like you seem to think it is.
As for cosmology, the show never explicitly defines the overall structure. The terms are used by different characters at different times to communicate with the people around them to try and get a grasp on whatever part they are dealing with at the moment, they don't know for sure how it all fits together and the show never actually defines it. Yes, what I said is not explicitly 100% supported by the show, but neither is your narrow tidy pigeonhole view.
A. Actually that was a typo on my part (I was tired when typing it), it was supposed to be "along personality and moral trait lines", which in this particular case IS the equivalent of "good and evil" if you believe in absolute good and evil (which I do not).
B. No he didn't, what Bones said was "Apparently the body weakened during the duplication process" which is not quite the same thing. Listen to his voice and watch his body language, he obviously has no idea what caused it, just that it must because of the split. That qualifies as mysterious.
C. Like I said I was tired when I typed it, and while I am good at remembering faces I am not so great at names or their spelling even when wide awake. In any case, the chimera theory is one of the more popular ones, but as I said by using "if", it is only speculation about why he ended up as two complete individuals instead of fragments like Kirk, or one live and one just dead meat at materialization.
TNG actually refers to the energy body in an episode or two, and at conventions Roddenberry was often asked why they don't just make transporter clones to which his answer was usually along the lines of only one would have the spark that made the person a living unique individual, the transporter cannot create life, only move it. I just called it a soul because a lot of people do though Roddenberry probably would not have approved of that description. If it bothers you call it something else, it is the idea that is important not the label.
D. Voyager was not temporally duplicated, they went though a quantum divergence field which duplicated all the matter but not the antimatter (which is why their engines stalled and they seemed to be loosing fuel). They were separated by phase, not time, similar to what happened in TNG because of the accident in the D'Deridex's engine room which made some people intangible and invisible to the unshifted people, though not exactly since each had a solid ship from their point of view. It may or may not have caused the same problem that Kirk did but since one of the ships was destroyed with all crew (except Kim and the baby who transferred over to replace the two dead on the other ship) before any of the weakness would have showed up we will never know for sure.
E. I already noticed that you don't see the connection, and at this point I am not sure I can help you with that. And no, that is not a flame attack, things that are obvious to one person are not always so to someone else and vice versa.
You are right about All Our Yesterdays, the episode did not use the word entropy (I rewatched it to be sure, I hadn't seen it for a few decades since it is not one I am particularly fond of). It is possible that the entropy reference in regard to the "preparation" was in Yesterday's Son or the other novel by Crispin based on that episode and I mixed them up. It is pretty much fanon wherever it came from though, so it is a reasonable mistake.
It isn't the first time they used a common substitution for a word the viewers might not be familiar with however, such as calling the necropsy of the dog-like animal from The Enemy Within an "autopsy", or the contactless solid state memory cartridge's seen in most episodes "tapes". Your point about it being an outlier that probably had something to do with the particular time travel method or some other local factor is valid in any case though.
As for Lazarus and The Alternative Factor, they don't mention phases per se but they do mention polarity and liken it to matter and antimatter. The point is that Lazarus did not register as antimatter to any of the sensors, he just registered as normal human. If his protons were hanging out where his electrons should be one would think that would look odd at the very least on the sensors. The script was rather poor and the dialog worse (probably the worst in the series), but the idea they were trying get across was that they took on the correct polarity for the universe they exited into (or at least they did when they swapped anyway).
The dialog is very wishy-washy on the science and makes it sound like they are talking about a simple matter/antimatter explosion from the two Lazarus versions touching, but if you listen just before that point in the same scene, Spock talked about something causing the rip to form and if the universes come into full contact they would annihilate each other. Having both versions of Lazarus be on the same side of the negative magnetic corridor was the event that would rip it wide open and destroy the universes, the dialog just does not express it very well.
In the case of Mirror, Mirror we are both right in a way. They had to divert significant power to to the transporter to make the transfer at all, and the resistance to it was going up rapidly so when Marlena demanded they take her with them there was no time to try rebalancing it (if it would even work in the first place) for five.
The transporter was very loosely based in quantum theories from the 1960s, though like most sci-fi shows it is more misunderstanding than realistic. The process supposedly set up a quantum relationship (sort of a warped entanglement theory) between a remote object and the transporter pad field and as the object disintegrated at one end the exact same molecules and atoms would appear at the other without actually ceasing to exist until they all ended up back together at the destination. It was not a case of disassembly and recording the object's data then building it again with different molecules using the information.
For safety they had a buffer as an intermediary location where they could be held in limbo for a short time, but only a short time. TNG introduced the idea that the buffer could store templates of a sort as well to make sure that the person or object is assembled correctly, but that is probably safe to assume is one of the innovations that happened in between the two series and they probably use the same off-kilter quantum theory as TOS for the basic operation.
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch." "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Passion and Serenity are one.
I gain power by understanding both.
In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
The Force is united within me.
> @somtaawkhar said: > So from this episode* CARL! maybe a Q? > * He was reading the newspaper seen in the Guardian of Forever > * The distress signal from the nebula is from a Kelpian ship > * There is a dilthium nursery inside the nebula they were sent to investigate before the Burn > * Lots of good Mirror Universe stuff. Seemingly Phillipa's own version of TNG: Tapestry, or something like it
I don’t think he’s a Q. TOS era Trek was full of god-like beings.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Given some of the clues (especially regarding the paper Carl was reading, the Star-Register, which is the same paper we saw in "City On the Edge of Forever"), some are speculating that Carl may be something similar to the Guardian of Forever, except with access both temporal and cross-universal.
On the other hand, curing an issue while also providing psychodrama curing an unrelated issue sounds pretty Q - that's what was going on in "Tapestry", after all, when Q reminded Picard why risk-taking can be important while also repairing his heart issues.
Given some of the clues (especially regarding the paper Carl was reading, the Star-Register, which is the same paper we saw in "City On the Edge of Forever"), some are speculating that Carl may be something similar to the Guardian of Forever, except with access both temporal and cross-universal.
On the other hand, curing an issue while also providing psychodrama curing an unrelated issue sounds pretty Q - that's what was going on in "Tapestry", after all, when Q reminded Picard why risk-taking can be important while also repairing his heart issues.
Maybe he is a third, yet unknown entity.
But the references feel strong. The way he joked reminded me a bit of a Q like being, the Guardian was a lot more straight-forward and matter-of-fact like. But the "props" otherwise seem to point more towards the Guardian.
I suppose there is a chance that after Quinn did the unthinkable that half the continuum wanted him to stop, it's possible the Q advanced in the alphabet and are now at Caleb? If "now" makes any sense for someone with a newspaper containing headlines of the past and future?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Does anyone else think that Discovery likes to inflict the most misery on their longest lasting couple? Stamets had his husband killed, undergoes radical genetic engineering, forced to use the Spore Drive without regards to his health, is injured and forced into a coma, and his mirror version is killed twice. Culber was killed and eventually resurrected where he doesn't recognize his husband.
Except that isn't how quantum universes exist in Star Trek. As seen through numerous time travel episodes, you can go back and forward in time, change things, and still remain within the same universe. Just a different timeline of that universe.
To be fair, we don't know that. We assume it's the same timeline because we're not told differently, but with each temporal incursion and/or change, we could be in an entirely different universe, one that is almost identical, but ever so slightly different.
5. What I described wasn't logic, it was an illustration of the illogic of the fairy-tale thinking of Kurtzman's team is by applying their interpretation of quantum phenomena generally instead of arbitrarily. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the weirdness with Georgiou simply does not make any more sense than a fairytale with childishly simple arbitrary rules. At this point I would not be too surprised if they went to Xanthian levels of it (and yes, I am being cynical but the show, for all its good points, has too many seriously bad ones to be otherwise).
Except we already saw a similar thing happen to Seven of Nine in the Voyager episode "Relativity". Kurtzman didn't make any of this up, hes just following canon.
I'd totally forgot about the Seven incident. +1 observation.
and now we know how georgiou will end up in the S31 series
You know, I'm not convinced there's going to be a S31 show. If there's a desire to focus on Georgiou, they'd be better off with a Terran Universe miniseries or something.
I don’t think he’s a Q. TOS era Trek was full of god-like beings.
This isn't TOS though. We're in the 32nd Century now. Regardless, surely godlike powers are a matter of perspective; it's all technology at the end of the day. To a primitive species, Michael Burnham with a Tricorder would be perceived as a God.
Don't matter how much Time Travel Tech is destroyed as you can always do a break away maneuver around a star and go back and forth through time.
Speaking of time travel; we only know that time travel technology was destroyed from this universe. Would that not allow for time travel from another universe to be used in the prime universe?
It might not be from the Terran Universe, but any other Universe could have had their own temporal wars, or even not. You can't eradicate temporal technology from the multiverse.
What does everyone think is going on here anyway? Has Georgiou been pushed back to a point in her timeline, or is this a simulation and/or trickery of some kind? Presumably if events of the Terran Universe timeline change (re Michael, Lorca etc) then do events of the prime timeline? Terran Stammets has now died before his time, so...
At the moment, I'm thinking of it all in a similar fashion to the Arrowverse, in the sense that what changes happen in one timeline don't have any effect on the other, so in this instance, there's a version of Georgiou that travels to the prime universe, and one that doesn't, which complicates a few things, although this Terran Universe may be yet another branch from within the multiverse.
It must be an alternate mirrorverse, or a fake reality. She's definitely there to learn she doesn't fit in there anymore.
I don't buy this notion.
Georgiou is a product of her environment, much alike everyone else. If she were left in a Terran setting for long enough, she'd quite likely revert to her Terran self. She may be subconsciously reluctant at the moment because she's readjusting, similarly to how she had to adjust to the prime universe in the first place.
It must be an alternate mirrorverse, or a fake reality. She's definitely there to learn she doesn't fit in there anymore.
I don't buy this notion.
Georgiou is a product of her environment, much alike everyone else. If she were left in a Terran setting for long enough, she'd quite likely revert to her Terran self. She may be subconsciously reluctant at the moment because she's readjusting, similarly to how she had to adjust to the prime universe in the first place.
"A leopard never changes it spots."
Old folk sayings should never be substituted for actual observation. Psychologically speaking, people "change their spots" on a fairly regular basis, and thank the Gods, because I was even more insufferable twenty years ago.
Yes, like everyone, Georgiou is a product of her environment (among other factors). And for quite some time now, her environment has been the Prime timeline. She was raised believing that humans were the only worthwhile life forms in the galaxy, that all others existed only as slaves, food, or both. Now she's gotten to know a Kelpien as a person, not an archetype; now she's seen that there are those who can be directed by persuasion, not necessarily force; now she's learned that listening to others can be a source of intel, not weakness. If she's truly traveled in time (which I'm reserving opinion on), she could well wind up redirecting the course of the Empire - which might help explain why the extremely xenophobic Empire we see today will have a starship with a Vulcan first officer, one who can actually aspire to the captaincy (and ultimately the Imperial Throne), only ten years later.
Interesting. So ... Emperor Lorca? Empress Tilly? I wonder who will claim the throne of the Empire. I'm pretty sure the timeline for the MU just changed.
Interesting. So ... Emperor Lorca? Empress Tilly? I wonder who will claim the throne of the Empire. I'm pretty sure the timeline for the MU just changed.
Why would it unless Georgiou uses Section 31 to attack it somehow?
On the other hand, she knows about the Burn and may set Section 31 to preventing it as a long term side goal (of course, that could be what causes the burn in the first place....). Or her actions may cause something to happen to the S3 DSC setting (though at this point I doubt it, CBS seems set on their generic quasi-Trek and the more or less post apocalyptic future gives them the freedom to do that).
And Phillipa is back in time for the Section 31 show.
So is there any explanation for why didn't they use a similar gateway from TOS? This is one of the frequent complaints people have about the show, that they change things just to change things, and often the change makes no sense. Its hard to see an argument against it on this issue.
This brings back the goofy issue with Empress Blinky and her quantum issues makes no sense, as it changes the entire history of Trek and alternate universes/timelines from being a cogent one that is understandable with the concept of quantum uncertainty, to something ST:D is just pulling out of their behind.
And I say that deliberately because pulling something out of your behind is what humans do, as well as shedding dead skin, exhaling and the like. It is something else I thought of, and a major problem with this idea because being a biological creature, the Empress needs to eat, her cells divide, die, and expel waste. The PG that came to the ST:D universe is not the same bundle of atoms and molecules that went back. She has unquestionably been eating and drinking the current universe' stuff and getting rid of the old stuff. So as time goes on she should actually be more stable, not less, because her old MU bits are getting replaced as her body goes through normal life processes.
So is there any explanation for why didn't they use a similar gateway from TOS? This is one of the frequent complaints people have about the show, that they change things just to change things, and often the change makes no sense. Its hard to see an argument against it on this issue.
This brings back the goofy issue with Empress Blinky and her quantum issues makes no sense, as it changes the entire history of Trek and alternate universes/timelines from being a cogent one that is understandable with the concept of quantum uncertainty, to something ST:D is just pulling out of their behind.
And I say that deliberately because pulling something out of your behind is what humans do, as well as shedding dead skin, exhaling and the like. It is something else I thought of, and a major problem with this idea because being a biological creature, the Empress needs to eat, her cells divide, die, and expel waste. The PG that came to the ST:D universe is not the same bundle of atoms and molecules that went back. She has unquestionably been eating and drinking the current universe' stuff and getting rid of the old stuff. So as time goes on she should actually be more stable, not less, because her old MU bits are getting replaced as her body goes through normal life processes.
Well, after Burnham asks Carl who he really is, he says I AM THE GUARDIAN OF FOREVER, using voice samples from TOS. Then the doorway explodes into thousands of wood splinters, and then reforms itself in the classical Guardian stone archway. It mentions that, during the Temporal Wars, people kept trying to use it to kill other people, so it hid itself to avoid being exploited. So it was disguising itself so people couldn't find it.
As for what you say about Phillipa you are completely wrong. We have already seen from Voyager how frequent time travel can cause issues, up to and including insanity, and death. And we have never seen anyone get as temporally displaced as Phillipa, so her having extreme symptoms also makes sense. None of it contradicts, or conflicts, with past canon. The only other Trek characters to go through what she did are Nero, his crew, and Prime Spock, and they only went about 130 years displaced from their original time. And this would explain why Prime Spock died young(for a Vulcan) after jumping into the Kelvin timeline.
Uhh eating for food would just create energy for cell division for the creation of new skin and the like, and her cells are from the MU, so her divided cells would also be entangled to the MU as well. You are completely making something up that doesn't even make sense. Past Trek has already established you have a uniquely identifiable quantum signature that makes you detectable if you jump universes. So obviously that never changes, no matter how much you eat, or shed skin. Discovery is just following past canon there.
No such thing as "excessive time travel". The problem in VOY with Seven was rising paradox levels from repeated incursions into the same sequence of events, not simply because she travelled in time a number of times. As I said before it is a classic fold-style time travel story.
And Fox is right, over time she should settle in if the problem was the magic molecule thing since even when a cell divides it uses new materials to accomplish it. Even old cells purge old materials so even though the cell itself is the same it would have fewer of the old molecules and more of the new ones in its fluid and other internal parts.
No such thing as "excessive time travel". The problem in VOY with Seven was rising paradox levels from repeated incursions into the same sequence of events, not simply because she travelled in time a number of times. As I said before it is a classic fold-style time travel story.
And Fox is right, over time she should settle in if the problem was the magic molecule thing since even when a cell divides it uses new materials to accomplish it. Even old cells purge old materials so even though the cell itself is the same it would have fewer of the old molecules and more of the new ones in its fluid and other internal parts.
This is literally not what was said in Voyager, and amounts to your own, demonstrably wrong, headcanon. Much like everything else you post about other episodes previously in the thread.
And, again, TNG's "Parallels", and Discovery's "Despite Yourself", episodes both state there is a set quantum signature everything from a universe has. This doesn't change regardless of how long you are in another quantum reality. That just isn't how it works in Trek, and this was established decades ago. You can whine, kick, and scream, until the cows come home but established canon is established canon.
No, it is exactly what was said, you obviously have not paid attention to what they were saying in the episode. Why do you think they kept reading off the paradox level? That was the danger, that is what was causing Seven problems (in fact she was having those problems even before she was even recruited for the mission, that is a clear sign of paradox). I don't see how you could possibly be interpreting it as anything else, they did everything but stop and turn to the camera to explicitly lay it all out.
The writers shot themselves in the foot with the preemptive punishment nonsense since it meant that they caused the problem in the first place with the mission and a simple retrograde memo to the captain to cancel the mission would have headed the problem off before it ever started, but other than that it was a simple fold story.
And in Parallels Worf was not in any particular parallel timeline long enough for any of that to happen. It is something that would take years. And speaking of years, Braxton was stranded in the past for just short of thirty years, if the fairy tale molecule nonsense was actually a thing then he would not have had to worry since in a few weeks he would just have been dragged forward to his own time (or disintegrated, or whatever idiocy DSC came up with) long before Janeway found him rooting around in garbage cans.
And Braxton was a time cop so he obviously made a lot of time jumps so it cannot possibly be the total number of jumps doing it either since he must travelled though time a lot more than Georgiou.
Interesting. So ... Emperor Lorca? Empress Tilly? I wonder who will claim the throne of the Empire. I'm pretty sure the timeline for the MU just changed.
Why would it unless Georgiou uses Section 31 to attack it somehow?
On the other hand, she knows about the Burn and may set Section 31 to preventing it as a long term side goal (of course, that could be what causes the burn in the first place....). Or her actions may cause something to happen to the S3 DSC setting (though at this point I doubt it, CBS seems set on their generic quasi-Trek and the more or less post apocalyptic future gives them the freedom to do that).
The Emperor is dead and the Carl said Saru would go on to do great things in that universe. So unless it's a Mirror Mirror Universe ... the MU timeline just changed.
And Phillipa is back in time for the Section 31 show.
got a chill seeing that. bit of a prob, tho. the Guardian can't move from point a2b. it can only take itself outside of time, and that wasn't the Guardian's planet
WE SURVIVE!
aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
either to conquer or to die for the Empire
And Phillipa is back in time for the Section 31 show.
got a chill seeing that. bit of a prob, tho. the Guardian can't move from point a2b. it can only take itself outside of time, and that wasn't the Guardian's planet
Why would CBS be any more consistent with that point than with any other one they have ignored, mangled, or botched?
Comments
Cloning requires having the clones grow up at an accelerated rate and transfer the memories to each clone. Transporter duplicates only requires the pattern of the original, enough energy, and perhaps matter to create the duplicates. Transporters work by disintegrating the original and creating a copy at a designated area. So every person that uses a transporter is a transporter duplicate that has the original destroyed.
> The Kelvin timeline is a different quantum universe altogether, it just had the same history as the Prime Timeline up until Nero's incursion point.
This is how I've always viewed it too as a separate permutation of the prime universe like all the ones in parallels that was very similar but with a few subtle but not derailing differences. The biggest difference before 2233 in that universe appears to be the use of 0 in 4 digit ship registries but then the black hole deposited the narada and boom big old divergence.
But as basically every time travel plot in trek shows us time doesn't split in tapes over.
Transporters just transport one in a beam of light from A to B - "duplicates" and "patterns" exist, but those are freak occurences. However the fan theory of every transport resulting in a clone was never explained nor found in background material, it's just not supposed to be that way. And the Kelvin Timeline is exactly that, a timeline. It is the same universe up until Nero's incursion - yes, that doesn't work out with some things because nobody bothered to do research before they wrote the movie, but canonically it's just another timeline.
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I used the mystery genre as an example because it is the clearest and most straightforward way of illustrating the point and I thought you would get the idea easier that way. I guess I was wrong since you obviously did not get the point.
And yes, Trek has some nonsensical stuff (though less than you seem to think), but DSC (and PIC) takes the cake in that regard with the highest frequency and severity of nonsense. It is sad when a spoof like Lower Decks makes more sense than the current dramas of the same franchise.
Our universe in real life is theorized to have wildly differing numbers of dimensions depending on which theory you look at, but the minimum is usually considered four, not three, because we have time and not just space.
And you are the one obsessed with labels, not me. Traditionally the show is messy, just like the real world is, and things do not always fit into neat absolute pigeonholes. If you object to the way I phrase things or how I point out that there is overlap in the concepts presented in the shows then you are welcome to your own headcanon version of things, but using a subset of meaning and cherrypicked artificial differentiation to try and gatekeep doesn't make your interpretation the only right one.
The stated problem in Relitivity was the building paradox level (and they frequently read off the numbers), I watched the episode again before I made the post you are quoting to make sure I remembered it right. Try listening to the dialog and watching the body language instead of reading it in transcript or whatever you are doing.
Multiple "recruitments" of her were a bigger concern than simply the number of incursions, and the paradox level of the whole situation was a major concern as well. It is definitely a fold situation dependent upon the number of incursions into that particular paradox node, not the total number of times Seven has ever gone time travelling, like you seem to think it is.
As for cosmology, the show never explicitly defines the overall structure. The terms are used by different characters at different times to communicate with the people around them to try and get a grasp on whatever part they are dealing with at the moment, they don't know for sure how it all fits together and the show never actually defines it. Yes, what I said is not explicitly 100% supported by the show, but neither is your narrow tidy pigeonhole view.
A. Actually that was a typo on my part (I was tired when typing it), it was supposed to be "along personality and moral trait lines", which in this particular case IS the equivalent of "good and evil" if you believe in absolute good and evil (which I do not).
B. No he didn't, what Bones said was "Apparently the body weakened during the duplication process" which is not quite the same thing. Listen to his voice and watch his body language, he obviously has no idea what caused it, just that it must because of the split. That qualifies as mysterious.
C. Like I said I was tired when I typed it, and while I am good at remembering faces I am not so great at names or their spelling even when wide awake. In any case, the chimera theory is one of the more popular ones, but as I said by using "if", it is only speculation about why he ended up as two complete individuals instead of fragments like Kirk, or one live and one just dead meat at materialization.
TNG actually refers to the energy body in an episode or two, and at conventions Roddenberry was often asked why they don't just make transporter clones to which his answer was usually along the lines of only one would have the spark that made the person a living unique individual, the transporter cannot create life, only move it. I just called it a soul because a lot of people do though Roddenberry probably would not have approved of that description. If it bothers you call it something else, it is the idea that is important not the label.
D. Voyager was not temporally duplicated, they went though a quantum divergence field which duplicated all the matter but not the antimatter (which is why their engines stalled and they seemed to be loosing fuel). They were separated by phase, not time, similar to what happened in TNG because of the accident in the D'Deridex's engine room which made some people intangible and invisible to the unshifted people, though not exactly since each had a solid ship from their point of view. It may or may not have caused the same problem that Kirk did but since one of the ships was destroyed with all crew (except Kim and the baby who transferred over to replace the two dead on the other ship) before any of the weakness would have showed up we will never know for sure.
E. I already noticed that you don't see the connection, and at this point I am not sure I can help you with that. And no, that is not a flame attack, things that are obvious to one person are not always so to someone else and vice versa.
You are right about All Our Yesterdays, the episode did not use the word entropy (I rewatched it to be sure, I hadn't seen it for a few decades since it is not one I am particularly fond of). It is possible that the entropy reference in regard to the "preparation" was in Yesterday's Son or the other novel by Crispin based on that episode and I mixed them up. It is pretty much fanon wherever it came from though, so it is a reasonable mistake.
It isn't the first time they used a common substitution for a word the viewers might not be familiar with however, such as calling the necropsy of the dog-like animal from The Enemy Within an "autopsy", or the contactless solid state memory cartridge's seen in most episodes "tapes". Your point about it being an outlier that probably had something to do with the particular time travel method or some other local factor is valid in any case though.
As for Lazarus and The Alternative Factor, they don't mention phases per se but they do mention polarity and liken it to matter and antimatter. The point is that Lazarus did not register as antimatter to any of the sensors, he just registered as normal human. If his protons were hanging out where his electrons should be one would think that would look odd at the very least on the sensors. The script was rather poor and the dialog worse (probably the worst in the series), but the idea they were trying get across was that they took on the correct polarity for the universe they exited into (or at least they did when they swapped anyway).
The dialog is very wishy-washy on the science and makes it sound like they are talking about a simple matter/antimatter explosion from the two Lazarus versions touching, but if you listen just before that point in the same scene, Spock talked about something causing the rip to form and if the universes come into full contact they would annihilate each other. Having both versions of Lazarus be on the same side of the negative magnetic corridor was the event that would rip it wide open and destroy the universes, the dialog just does not express it very well.
In the case of Mirror, Mirror we are both right in a way. They had to divert significant power to to the transporter to make the transfer at all, and the resistance to it was going up rapidly so when Marlena demanded they take her with them there was no time to try rebalancing it (if it would even work in the first place) for five.
The transporter was very loosely based in quantum theories from the 1960s, though like most sci-fi shows it is more misunderstanding than realistic. The process supposedly set up a quantum relationship (sort of a warped entanglement theory) between a remote object and the transporter pad field and as the object disintegrated at one end the exact same molecules and atoms would appear at the other without actually ceasing to exist until they all ended up back together at the destination. It was not a case of disassembly and recording the object's data then building it again with different molecules using the information.
For safety they had a buffer as an intermediary location where they could be held in limbo for a short time, but only a short time. TNG introduced the idea that the buffer could store templates of a sort as well to make sure that the person or object is assembled correctly, but that is probably safe to assume is one of the innovations that happened in between the two series and they probably use the same off-kilter quantum theory as TOS for the basic operation.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
> So from this episode* CARL! maybe a Q?
> * He was reading the newspaper seen in the Guardian of Forever
> * The distress signal from the nebula is from a Kelpian ship
> * There is a dilthium nursery inside the nebula they were sent to investigate before the Burn
> * Lots of good Mirror Universe stuff. Seemingly Phillipa's own version of TNG: Tapestry, or something like it
I don’t think he’s a Q. TOS era Trek was full of god-like beings.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
On the other hand, curing an issue while also providing psychodrama curing an unrelated issue sounds pretty Q - that's what was going on in "Tapestry", after all, when Q reminded Picard why risk-taking can be important while also repairing his heart issues.
Maybe he is a third, yet unknown entity.
But the references feel strong. The way he joked reminded me a bit of a Q like being, the Guardian was a lot more straight-forward and matter-of-fact like. But the "props" otherwise seem to point more towards the Guardian.
I suppose there is a chance that after Quinn did the unthinkable that half the continuum wanted him to stop, it's possible the Q advanced in the alphabet and are now at Caleb? If "now" makes any sense for someone with a newspaper containing headlines of the past and future?
I'd totally forgot about the Seven incident. +1 observation.
Well that's an ironic statement.
You know, I'm not convinced there's going to be a S31 show. If there's a desire to focus on Georgiou, they'd be better off with a Terran Universe miniseries or something.
This isn't TOS though. We're in the 32nd Century now. Regardless, surely godlike powers are a matter of perspective; it's all technology at the end of the day. To a primitive species, Michael Burnham with a Tricorder would be perceived as a God.
Speaking of time travel; we only know that time travel technology was destroyed from this universe. Would that not allow for time travel from another universe to be used in the prime universe?
It might not be from the Terran Universe, but any other Universe could have had their own temporal wars, or even not. You can't eradicate temporal technology from the multiverse.
At the moment, I'm thinking of it all in a similar fashion to the Arrowverse, in the sense that what changes happen in one timeline don't have any effect on the other, so in this instance, there's a version of Georgiou that travels to the prime universe, and one that doesn't, which complicates a few things, although this Terran Universe may be yet another branch from within the multiverse.
Georgiou is a product of her environment, much alike everyone else. If she were left in a Terran setting for long enough, she'd quite likely revert to her Terran self. She may be subconsciously reluctant at the moment because she's readjusting, similarly to how she had to adjust to the prime universe in the first place.
"A leopard never changes it spots."
Yes, like everyone, Georgiou is a product of her environment (among other factors). And for quite some time now, her environment has been the Prime timeline. She was raised believing that humans were the only worthwhile life forms in the galaxy, that all others existed only as slaves, food, or both. Now she's gotten to know a Kelpien as a person, not an archetype; now she's seen that there are those who can be directed by persuasion, not necessarily force; now she's learned that listening to others can be a source of intel, not weakness. If she's truly traveled in time (which I'm reserving opinion on), she could well wind up redirecting the course of the Empire - which might help explain why the extremely xenophobic Empire we see today will have a starship with a Vulcan first officer, one who can actually aspire to the captaincy (and ultimately the Imperial Throne), only ten years later.
Why would it unless Georgiou uses Section 31 to attack it somehow?
On the other hand, she knows about the Burn and may set Section 31 to preventing it as a long term side goal (of course, that could be what causes the burn in the first place....). Or her actions may cause something to happen to the S3 DSC setting (though at this point I doubt it, CBS seems set on their generic quasi-Trek and the more or less post apocalyptic future gives them the freedom to do that).
So is there any explanation for why didn't they use a similar gateway from TOS? This is one of the frequent complaints people have about the show, that they change things just to change things, and often the change makes no sense. Its hard to see an argument against it on this issue.
This brings back the goofy issue with Empress Blinky and her quantum issues makes no sense, as it changes the entire history of Trek and alternate universes/timelines from being a cogent one that is understandable with the concept of quantum uncertainty, to something ST:D is just pulling out of their behind.
And I say that deliberately because pulling something out of your behind is what humans do, as well as shedding dead skin, exhaling and the like. It is something else I thought of, and a major problem with this idea because being a biological creature, the Empress needs to eat, her cells divide, die, and expel waste. The PG that came to the ST:D universe is not the same bundle of atoms and molecules that went back. She has unquestionably been eating and drinking the current universe' stuff and getting rid of the old stuff. So as time goes on she should actually be more stable, not less, because her old MU bits are getting replaced as her body goes through normal life processes.
No such thing as "excessive time travel". The problem in VOY with Seven was rising paradox levels from repeated incursions into the same sequence of events, not simply because she travelled in time a number of times. As I said before it is a classic fold-style time travel story.
And Fox is right, over time she should settle in if the problem was the magic molecule thing since even when a cell divides it uses new materials to accomplish it. Even old cells purge old materials so even though the cell itself is the same it would have fewer of the old molecules and more of the new ones in its fluid and other internal parts.
No, it is exactly what was said, you obviously have not paid attention to what they were saying in the episode. Why do you think they kept reading off the paradox level? That was the danger, that is what was causing Seven problems (in fact she was having those problems even before she was even recruited for the mission, that is a clear sign of paradox). I don't see how you could possibly be interpreting it as anything else, they did everything but stop and turn to the camera to explicitly lay it all out.
The writers shot themselves in the foot with the preemptive punishment nonsense since it meant that they caused the problem in the first place with the mission and a simple retrograde memo to the captain to cancel the mission would have headed the problem off before it ever started, but other than that it was a simple fold story.
And in Parallels Worf was not in any particular parallel timeline long enough for any of that to happen. It is something that would take years. And speaking of years, Braxton was stranded in the past for just short of thirty years, if the fairy tale molecule nonsense was actually a thing then he would not have had to worry since in a few weeks he would just have been dragged forward to his own time (or disintegrated, or whatever idiocy DSC came up with) long before Janeway found him rooting around in garbage cans.
And Braxton was a time cop so he obviously made a lot of time jumps so it cannot possibly be the total number of jumps doing it either since he must travelled though time a lot more than Georgiou.
The Emperor is dead and the Carl said Saru would go on to do great things in that universe. So unless it's a Mirror Mirror Universe ... the MU timeline just changed.
got a chill seeing that. bit of a prob, tho. the Guardian can't move from point a2b. it can only take itself outside of time, and that wasn't the Guardian's planet
aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
either to conquer or to die for the Empire
Why would CBS be any more consistent with that point than with any other one they have ignored, mangled, or botched?