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another skills invalid? WTF?

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    but yet you are defending them.

    No, I was clarifying what was said because it was discussed in more detail than the short quote suggested. At no point did I say that any of this was OK.
    Lifetime Subscriber since Beta
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  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,100 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    reyan01 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Hm - according to a post on Reddit (I quote):
    "Yeah Kael mentioned how they honestly didn't know the latest change would cause another respec, and said if he knew he'd always communicate that to the playerbase, and that covid work-from-home is making communication between team members harder"

    Interesting, I wonder where that quote came from. Because Kael has been his usual silent self on Reddit just like he has been here. He certainly didn't post it anywhere readily available.. at least I can't find it.

    According to the person who posted on Reddit, he said that during the Livestream. To be fair I can't verify that as I wasn't present for the Livestream.

    I don't tend to go out of my way to watch the livestreams anymore, partly because I'm not a fan of staying awake until 1am and partly because it became painfully obvious that, no matter how many people say it nor how often it is said, they're not interested in how badly many of us want to see the Nova class get some love.

    And this is why Kael fails as a communicator.

    A passing comment on a live stream does not count as an official reply to the player base. I have tuned in for a couple of the streams, and usually there is anywhere from 2-8 people on it at one time.. I think the most I have ever seen is like 18.. it's a very small group that watches these. Yes, we have a few people who are kind enough to recap these for us from time to time, but it's certainly not their job to do so.

    It's just unreal that he's so lazy that he can't just type up a couple sentences to let us all know exactly what the hell is going on. I guess if that's too much for him, accurate patch notes are definitely a pipe dream.

    Perfectly put.
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Any comment or explaination from the Livestream?

    Nope, just our CM's usual treatment of any question or issue..

    Disinterested Silence.

    Exactly what you would expect from someone that flat out doesn't care.

    Hm - according to a post on Reddit (I quote):
    "Yeah Kael mentioned how they honestly didn't know the latest change would cause another respec, and said if he knew he'd always communicate that to the playerbase, and that covid work-from-home is making communication between team members harder"

    I'm not going to comment on the 'didn't know aspect of this comment, but I WILL say..... BS on the work-from-home comment.

    Seriously, again, I work in Healthcare. I've had to self-isolate several times during this pandemic. I've had to work from home each time AND play makeshift-teacher for my six-year old daughter who was also at home due to her school being closed on several of those occasions. And despite having to juggle working from home with home-teaching a six year old I STILL managed to remain productive enough that the more time-sensitive or urgent work I had to concentrate on (much of which obviously requires me to liaise with my colleagues or other services outside of the one I work for) still got done.

    So sorry, NO sympathy from me whatsoever on that excuse. I mean, even if 'Live' working isn't possible, is he incapable using email?!

    Didn't he use that excuse the last TWO TIMES?!? Seriously, if they can't fix that issue by now, it's not Covid...it's being bloody incompetent. First time...maybe. But once you are made aware of the issue, it's all on you. So really, it was unacceptable the second time...but a third...yeah no...Kael needs to do his bloody damn job or they need to find somebody who will.

    And again: perfectly put.

    Not only does he fails at communicating - and has, in fact, showed that he does not know how to listen and thus showed that his communicating skills amount to a whopping zero - but he also doesn't know the game he's supposed to be the CM of.
    And not knowing the game means that he doesn't even know what to ask for - that's assuming, of course, that he'd care enough to do so, which we know he doesn't - so the result is what we all have come to know, worse: expect, from any and all communications.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    I have an idea. If the players are fed up with the horrible communication, lack of interest, lack of caring from the devs, demand action. The only way to make the devs understand is to put our money where our mouth is, and by that I mean a boycot of the Zen market. If you are unhappy with how the devs are treating the players, don't buy the next shiny new toy they put out.

    You can complain all you want, but the fact of the matter is, if you are still supporting Cryptic financially, they have no reason to listen to your complaints.

    I love this game. I really do, but I have not bought Zen in well over a year because I refuse to support Cryptic until they get their act together, hire a competent CM, fix the bugs, and stop cranking out broken content.
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    Do keep in mind that Community Managers aren't in charge of anything, they're like the White House Press Secretary... its their job to "handle" the end-users not to make policy decisions or tell anyone above them what to do. While in a perfect world they'd act as an interface with the community and would actually be used to better produce and maintain products, the reality of it is they almost always exist to tame people and make excuses for what a company does or doesn't do as well as be the public face that people throw rocks at.

    That's not a defense of Kael - he has certainly been phoning it in for a while - but the persistent, egregious errors in STO that we've been seeing for the last month or two (or however long your particular bug of choice has been in place) are not his doing, nor can he do much about them. That's on the developers. From what I've seen of the team of content creators and developers they do not seem like a group that is particularly concerned with getting things right, nor is much pressure put on them to do so by the people in charge. I'm guessing the only thing their superiors look at is revenue numbers and so long as those look ok, they don't care what's happening with the product.

    If you wanted to get things fixed in a hurry you'd need to motivate players to do some sort of purchase strike where people who normally buy ZEN deliberately don't do so for 30 days. I don't see that happening as this isn't really an action-oriented community, and they'd throw sales at people after a week or two of it, which would cause people to abandon their resolve. So, it comes down to waiting until it starts affecting those numbers organically through people just taking breaks from the game because it's too buggy and broken and frustrating at the moment.
  • kurtronkurtron Member Posts: 189 Arc User
    I mean, by this point they might as well just cut the CM job and save themselves the money
  • garaffegaraffe Member Posts: 1,353 Arc User
    What it comes down to is that each player needs to decide if this game/company in its current state is worth spending money on. I have made my choice. I have decided that this company is not worth my money. I will still play because I like the game, but I won't spend money until something changes (which I know it won't).
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Hm - according to a post on Reddit (I quote):
    "Yeah Kael mentioned how they honestly didn't know the latest change would cause another respec, and said if he knew he'd always communicate that to the playerbase, and that covid work-from-home is making communication between team members harder"

    Sadly called it:
    That's very optimistic, I'd expect a "We weren't aware of that, could you give more details?"

    And as others said "covid work-from-home is making communication between team members harder" is a BS excuse, especially in 2020. Making things harder to develop properly and cleanly is one justifiable thing that hopefully the pandemic will help improve, freaking basic communication when we have emails, video-conferences via apps, smartphones and even still freaking SMS, is not such thing.

    Hell, he livestreams and is able to show his face and talk to people, so he definitely can get info from the team.
    #TASforSTO
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  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,100 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Unfortunately, you're right. And if people think that's only a problem with F2P models, than they're entirely mistaken.

    I haven't spent a dime on this in game since the new event system came out. I've been saving for a long time now, to be able to contribute to my fleets colonies (upgrading two at the same time, with people attached to dilithium as if it was a life raft is not an easy feat at all and we end up being always the same few people contributing) AND to - maybe, because at this point I'm sorry but I do not believe a single thing they say anymore - convert into Zen to get the Klingon Legendary bundle.
    But all of this is just making me reconsider if I should do even that. Grinding is not something that weights down on me if I can see that what I want to get is worth it, not only for the object itself but for the state of the game. And right now, this game feels like an iceberg going whenever the currents push it.

    The team either needs to realize WHY people are disgruntled instead of hiding behind the "you're being very mean" argument to justify their complete silence, or to throw in the towel and let someone else pick up the slack.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,190 Arc User
    I think maybe I'm going to take a break from STO, and focus on Factorio...
    (Excellent free demo here - https://factorio.com/download )

    Try Satisfactory.. i like it more...
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    I cannot blame Kael directly. Has anyone stopped to ask if the devs actually communicate with him the way they should? He can only communicate what he is told. And maybe they didn't know that there would be a third Skills Invalid issue. Maybe they thought they fixed it the last time, and the root of the cause goes deeper than expected.

    I don't know. None of us do. Not with absolute certainty.
    Even if that's true which I have trouble believing with how terrible a job Kael has done since he started the role. It is 100% Kael fault that he still has not bothered communicating in a decent way to the community after being told. He has known for a while now and still not bothered to do his job just like the last 2 times before this one. Where are the news posts, where is the landing splash screen which was designed for warnings like this, or the warning strip when logging in or the the ingame warning message to warn players which they don't seem to use anymore or any of the other methods that could be used like mail. I don't expect them to use every single one of those just 1 or 2 is enough. Major faults like this used to get communicated to players via in the game splash popup and that is Kaels responsibly.

    What was the point in implanting that horribly designed landing splash screen if not for things like this?

  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 1,100 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I cannot blame Kael directly. Has anyone stopped to ask if the devs actually communicate with him the way they should? He can only communicate what he is told. And maybe they didn't know that there would be a third Skills Invalid issue. Maybe they thought they fixed it the last time, and the root of the cause goes deeper than expected.

    I don't know. None of us do. Not with absolute certainty.
    Even if that's true which I have trouble believing with how terrible a job Kael has done since he started the role. It is 100% Kael fault that he still has not bothered communicating in a decent way to the community after being told. He has known for a while now and still not bothered to do his job just like the last 2 times before this one. Where are the news posts, where is the landing splash screen which was designed for warnings like this, or the warning strip when logging in or the the ingame warning message to warn players which they don't seem to use anymore or any of the other methods that could be used like mail. I don't expect them to use every single one of those just 1 or 2 is enough. Major faults like this used to get communicated to players via in the game splash popup and that is Kaels responsibly.

    What was the point in implanting that horribly designed landing splash screen if not for things like this?

    What do we want Kael to say? Sorry... Dev X failed do do thing Y resulting in Issue Z? Or sorry, Dev x failed to own up to mistake Y resulting in issue Z? Because that is what is happening here. Someone keeps dropping the ball, and really, no statement or excuse Kael can post will fix it.

    And in my experience of two decades worth of following MMO development, the community manager has always been a company whipping boy. He's always been the buffr between community ire and developer ego. But because "manager" is part of their title the communities tend to assume they have some sort of power.

    We've got a dev team that doesn't care anymore. That's really all we need to know. What we as players need to decide is whether or not we're going to keep engaging in what is clearly a futile hope that anything is actually going to change? In my judgment, Cryptic has failed. They get no money from me.

    That's the point, though: he's not being a buffer and he hasn't been for months now. I know perfectly well what "community manager" actually means so no, I'm under no illusion as to what little power he actually have - ie: zero.

    Yeah, no statement can fix this mess, you're right. But not saying anything,worse: refusing to aknowledging anything, is not doing them any favours. On the contrary, it's just going to exasperate things even more and bring on the "people are mean" wagon even those that have always been patient and understanding.
    There's no amount of excuses that can make up for the fact that they have left us in the dark, AGAIN.
    Again, you're right: the team doesn't care and we do have to decide if they're worth our money - they're not, in my opinion - but they are the one that need to decide if they're gonna take the fall or, as usual, make US the guilty party.
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I cannot blame Kael directly. Has anyone stopped to ask if the devs actually communicate with him the way they should? He can only communicate what he is told. And maybe they didn't know that there would be a third Skills Invalid issue. Maybe they thought they fixed it the last time, and the root of the cause goes deeper than expected.

    I don't know. None of us do. Not with absolute certainty.
    Even if that's true which I have trouble believing with how terrible a job Kael has done since he started the role. It is 100% Kael fault that he still has not bothered communicating in a decent way to the community after being told. He has known for a while now and still not bothered to do his job just like the last 2 times before this one. Where are the news posts, where is the landing splash screen which was designed for warnings like this, or the warning strip when logging in or the the ingame warning message to warn players which they don't seem to use anymore or any of the other methods that could be used like mail. I don't expect them to use every single one of those just 1 or 2 is enough. Major faults like this used to get communicated to players via in the game splash popup and that is Kaels responsibly.

    What was the point in implanting that horribly designed landing splash screen if not for things like this?

    What do we want Kael to say? Sorry... Dev X failed do do thing Y resulting in Issue Z? Or sorry, Dev x failed to own up to mistake Y resulting in issue Z? Because that is what is happening here. Someone keeps dropping the ball, and really, no statement or excuse Kael can post will fix it.

    And in my experience of two decades worth of following MMO development, the community manager has always been a company whipping boy. He's always been the buffr between community ire and developer ego. But because "manager" is part of their title the communities tend to assume they have some sort of power.

    We've got a dev team that doesn't care anymore. That's really all we need to know. What we as players need to decide is whether or not we're going to keep engaging in what is clearly a futile hope that anything is actually going to change? In my judgment, Cryptic has failed. They get no money from me.
    What I want is for him to do his job and send out a proper message to the community. I am not expecting him to fix it. At the bare minimum as part of his job he should edit the patch notes with an amendment in the known bug section about the bug and put out a message to warn us about the bug that we have invalid skills and need to do a respec. Something like this should be a twitter and facebook post as well. Not as the main source twitter and Facebook should be secondary additionals.

    This type of major bug should be in the player warning splash screen message when we log in. Its fair enough if someone didn't tell him. But why hasn't he bothered to tell the players after he found out. There are multiple mechanics in game for him to send out messages to all players.

    In short there should be an official message about the bug and an official message about doing a repec to fix it and that we have been given a free repec at the bare minimum. If you really have two decadres of expreince following MMO and commuinity mangers you would know just about eveyr other MMO would have an in game message to all players about there skills being invlaid and they need to do a free respec.

    Its not the doing a respec that bothers me. Its what feels like a complete lack of care or information from the community manager. That and the lack of basic QA or proof reading and even after being informed not bothering to fix misleading text even when it involves spending money. Mistakes happen but they shouldn't happen on the scale that they are happening.

    EDIT: Just to give one of many possible examples. The Legendary Mirror Bundle came out 2 months ago. The blog is still full of errors, the ZEN store text is still full of errors and the errors are different in each. Even though it involves money and is effectively false advertising they are not bothering to do anything about it. I don't remember the precise numbers but the errors from the community manager are running at something like 50% of posts are incorrect and that's when he even bothers to post.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    I cannot blame Kael directly. Has anyone stopped to ask if the devs actually communicate with him the way they should? He can only communicate what he is told. And maybe they didn't know that there would be a third Skills Invalid issue. Maybe they thought they fixed it the last time, and the root of the cause goes deeper than expected.

    I don't know. None of us do. Not with absolute certainty.
    Even if that's true which I have trouble believing with how terrible a job Kael has done since he started the role. It is 100% Kael fault that he still has not bothered communicating in a decent way to the community after being told. He has known for a while now and still not bothered to do his job just like the last 2 times before this one. Where are the news posts, where is the landing splash screen which was designed for warnings like this, or the warning strip when logging in or the the ingame warning message to warn players which they don't seem to use anymore or any of the other methods that could be used like mail. I don't expect them to use every single one of those just 1 or 2 is enough. Major faults like this used to get communicated to players via in the game splash popup and that is Kaels responsibly.

    What was the point in implanting that horribly designed landing splash screen if not for things like this?

    What do we want Kael to say? Sorry... Dev X failed do do thing Y resulting in Issue Z? Or sorry, Dev x failed to own up to mistake Y resulting in issue Z? Because that is what is happening here. Someone keeps dropping the ball, and really, no statement or excuse Kael can post will fix it.

    And in my experience of two decades worth of following MMO development, the community manager has always been a company whipping boy. He's always been the buffr between community ire and developer ego. But because "manager" is part of their title the communities tend to assume they have some sort of power.

    We've got a dev team that doesn't care anymore. That's really all we need to know. What we as players need to decide is whether or not we're going to keep engaging in what is clearly a futile hope that anything is actually going to change? In my judgment, Cryptic has failed. They get no money from me.
    What I want is for him to do his job and send out a proper message to the community. I am not expecting him to fix it. At the bare minimum as part of his job he should edit the patch notes with an amendment in the known bug section about the bug and put out a message to warn us about the bug that we have invalid skills and need to do a respec. Something like this should be a twitter and facebook post as well. Not as the main source twitter and Facebook should be secondary additionals.

    This type of major bug should be in the player warning splash screen message when we log in. Its fair enough if someone didn't tell him. But why hasn't he bothered to tell the players after he found out. There are multiple mechanics in game for him to send out messages to all players.

    In short there should be an official message about the bug and an official message about doing a repec to fix it and that we have been given a free repec at the bare minimum. If you really have two decadres of expreince following MMO and commuinity mangers you would know just about eveyr other MMO would have an in game message to all players about there skills being invlaid and they need to do a free respec.

    Its not the doing a respec that bothers me. Its what feels like a complete lack of care or information from the community manager. That and the lack of basic QA or proof reading and even after being informed not bothering to fix misleading text even when it involves spending money. Mistakes happen but they shouldn't happen on the scale that they are happening.

    EDIT: Just to give one of many possible examples. The Legendary Mirror Bundle came out 2 months ago. The blog is still full of errors, the ZEN store text is still full of errors and the errors are different in each. Even though it involves money and is effectively false advertising they are not bothering to do anything about it. I don't remember the precise numbers but the errors from the community manager are running at something like 50% of posts are incorrect and that's when he even bothers to post.

    Well put sir, and agreed on everything!

    As for player spending.. look, I am not one to tell anyone how to spend their money. You earned it, the only one qualified to tell you how to spend it is you. But for me personally, I cannot in good concience contribute any money toward this game the way it's currently being run. This complete lack of news and communication tells me that Cryptic does not have any respect for the player base and in turn I will not support them.

    Perhaps you feel differently? Well, that's cool.. I have no right to tell anyone what to do. But you can absolutely bet that my entertainment dollars will be going elsewhere while this studio continues it's disrespectful and inconsiderate treatment of it's loyal supporters.
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam


    Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.

    Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.
    That's not good enough as it only explains why the communication was missing from day 1. That is not reasonable explanation of why he didn't tell us the first 2 times after he found out nor does it explain why after he found out this time he still hasn't bothered to put proper decent communication out. So there is a valid reason for the delay in communication so what's his reason for not bothering to use communication channels now he has found out? He has had more then enough time now.

    Surly even you don't think one minor off hand comment in a livestream is reasonable for something as major as this? This is a major bug that is player wide after all. Any other decent MMO would have an ingame warning message when you log in.
  • mainamaina Member Posts: 430 Arc User
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam


    Jesse Heining mentions its something that resulted not only from them changing loadouts to include traits, which touches the skill system, but also from them fixing bugs related to some of the skills, and some of the traits, which causes the skill system to go think your skills are no longer valid. Mostly its them fixing bugs in skill/trait coding.

    Kael also mentions that, as the CM, he should have been involved in those conversations, but wasn't, as they weren't conversations the team had, they were just Devs fixing bugs, which is why he didn't inform anyone(he literally didn't know). He also mentions that the devs were likewise caught off guard by the skill retrains themselves, and apologizes for the hassle its caused.

    Funny enough, the players still don't know to respec, but hey, not his fault, he's sorry, he can sit back proud that his job is done. The rest of the players can continue to wonder why the game they just started playing, plays like Tribble. Too bad if they see that their traits are unslotted, they won't see a notice that the skills are invalid, too bad people are yelling in frustration that their load outs are acting weird, but that doesn't show the skills invalid either.....

    He missed the main part again, communicating with the player base.

    Som, I'm not shooting the messenger, my post was not aimed at you. o:)


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  • bubblegirl2015bubblegirl2015 Member Posts: 830 Arc User
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 4,164 Arc User
    At last a step in the right direction.
  • fred26291#2759 fred26291 Member Posts: 1,260 Arc User
    I for one consider anything posted to twitter and not here on the official forums , rumor / heresay and not official till its posted to the forums news page!
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Funny enough, they talked about the skill invalid issue yesterday on the Ten Forward weekly steam

    There is actually nothing "funny" about it at this point.

    Whatever the causes may be, they simply need to make sure it doesn't happen anymore. That's really all there is to it.

    And while apologies are nice from a PR standpoint, please just fix the problem.

    He said "steps have been taken to avoid this in the future". If that's actually true, then "great". If not, then people should definitely continue to call out unacceptable development behavior.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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This discussion has been closed.