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Discovery Season 3 Discussion *spoilers obviously*

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  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    except the sheer unbelievable ridiculousness of the player being promoted from cadet to captain (or worse, from CIVILIAN to captain in the romulan case)

    and you can't claim extenuating circumstances in STO's case, because that was there in the KT movies too​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    except the sheer unbelievable ridiculousness of the player being promoted from cadet to captain (or worse, from CIVILIAN to captain in the romulan case)

    and you can't claim extenuating circumstances in STO's case, because that was there in the KT movies too​​

    Well, I disagree a little. Players in STO are given captaincy of a Miranda class ship (at least originally.) That is basically like making someone captain of a rowboat. Giving them captain of a first class ship of the line, like KT Kirk, is a lot harder to swallow.

    In the Romulan case, well, you're not military, you're essentially a privateer so your rules are all that matter on your ship.


    As for ST:D why doesn't Starfleet put a 32nd century officer as first officer? Don't they need someone with actual experience in the tech, politics, and issues of the time period? (Maybe someone who can explain why Vulcan apparently has a moon now?)
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    it's not supposed to, according to MA, though they note it has 'close planetary companions'...whatever that means - i guess maybe it has an orbit-locked planet nearby​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,758 Arc User
    Both Zachary Quinto and Ethan Peck grow up to be Leonard Nemoy.
  • redvengeredvenge Member Posts: 1,425 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    I never once suggested whatsoever that Romulan ships were powered by dilithium. I said they were powered by artificial singularities and to the best of my knowledge, there was never a mention anywhere in a canon source that said they require dilithium for anything.
    Val, you are missing the important question. Whether or not Romulans use dilithium for FTL is irrelevant. The important question is:

    Does Mecha-Cthulu use dilithium for FTL?

    If an android summons a mechanical horror from the void beyond the stars, will it answer? Will it end all meat-bag life in the universe? Can it? Will it be forced to waggle it's mecha-dentrites like flagella in an undignified manner as it slowly swims from planet to planet?

    These are the real questions posed by the Burn. Everything else is a waste of brainspace.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Also Adira announcing themself as nonbinary, much like their actor. I was wondering why the Powers What Is kept crowing about representation, given that while Blu themself is nonbinary, Adira had been designated as a her. Cool to see them assert themself.

    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    The preview for next week’s episode was very interesting to say the least
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Also Adira announcing themself as nonbinary, much like their actor. I was wondering why the Powers What Is kept crowing about representation, given that while Blu themself is nonbinary, Adira had been designated as a her. Cool to see them assert themself.

    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?

    Considering that Adira has a bunch of previous hosts in her consciousness, then they and them are perfect pronouns for Adira Tal. It has nothing to do with being nonbinary. As far as we know, the only person within Adira Tal that is nonbinary is Tal since each host is male or female. The closest in reality to Adira Tal is people with multiple personality disorder that can interact with each personality not nonbinary individuals. So would a person with multiple personality disorder be nonbinary since they switch between only male and female personalities or would it require a nonbinary personality in order for that person to be nonbinary?

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?
    I am going to guess the ship is the USS Discovery from the Calypso short. It being left there 1,000 years ago, at the origin of The Burn, to be there when it happened, and record data on it.


    Also, the Ready Room preview for the next episode has glasses man explain that they discovered during the Temporal Wars that excessive time travel can make one very sick, as a person's molecules are designed to function in the time they were created. While everyone on the Discovery traveled through time, and is fine, Phillipa is suffering problems not just because of the time travel, but also due to the fact she jumped universes.

    Glasses man shows a hologram of a Betelgeusian time soldier, who had crossed over from the Kelvin timeline, and had the same problems Phillipa has. Him being the only known person, before Phillipa, to have traveled both through time, and between universes, to such a degree. He explains that her molecules are struggling to either go back in time, or jump the cosmic divide back to her universe.

    So that is how they plan to get her back for the Section 31 series if it ever makes to to air. So far they have taken the most obvious (and least compatible) option for every "twist" they think will surprise the viewers. Pathetic.

    They also don't seem to realize that Discovery has jumped dimensions hundreds of times in spore travel since they leave prime and travel though the quantum fungus realm before popping back into prime (or elsewhere like mirror). Also that "designed to function in the time they are created" would mean some entropy effect and even normal warp drive plays games with time dilation which would mess that up.

    By that logic someone who has traveled to much in warp should have their molecules try to get back to their homeworld or jump into the future to follow the amount of time their FTL travel would have taken at sublight or some similar nonsense. I know Trek is not hard sci-fi, but DSC is a total space fairy tail.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?
    I am going to guess the ship is the USS Discovery from the Calypso short. It being left there 1,000 years ago, at the origin of The Burn, to be there when it happened, and record data on it.


    Also, the Ready Room preview for the next episode has glasses man explain that they discovered during the Temporal Wars that excessive time travel can make one very sick, as a person's molecules are designed to function in the time they were created. While everyone on the Discovery traveled through time, and is fine, Phillipa is suffering problems not just because of the time travel, but also due to the fact she jumped universes.

    Glasses man shows a hologram of a Betelgeusian time soldier, who had crossed over from the Kelvin timeline, and had the same problems Phillipa has. Him being the only known person, before Phillipa, to have traveled both through time, and between universes, to such a degree. He explains that her molecules are struggling to either go back in time, or jump the cosmic divide back to her universe.


    Honestly that's just absurd. Star Trek has already embraced the theory of quantum universes, see TNG Parallels. Every possible divergence creates a new universe, and time travel caused divergences do the exact same thing, see ST 2009, VOY Endgame. And this should affect everything, not just people, if it is at the quantum level. How about those whales from ST4 Voyage Home, the USS Bozeman, or the Doctor's mobile emitter, all permanently displaced in time and thus universes as well?

    This is really really dumb, and not remotely thought out, if it is as you describe.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    starkaos wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Also Adira announcing themself as nonbinary, much like their actor. I was wondering why the Powers What Is kept crowing about representation, given that while Blu themself is nonbinary, Adira had been designated as a her. Cool to see them assert themself.

    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?

    Considering that Adira has a bunch of previous hosts in her consciousness, then they and them are perfect pronouns for Adira Tal. It has nothing to do with being nonbinary.
    SARU: (referencing Adira's signal-interpretation algorithm) How long will that take?

    STAMETS: Not more than a few hours. She's pretty fast.

    SARU: Update me the moment you have something, Commander.

    STAMETS: Of course.

    (Saru and Tilly leave, Adira bends over console. A beat.)

    ADIRA: (looking up from console) They're fast.

    STAMETS: Who?

    ADIRA: Um - "they", not "she". I've never felt like a "she", or - or a "her", so I would prefer "they" or "them" from now on.

    STAMETS: Okay.

    ADIRA: And... I've never told anyone but Grey.

    (Stamets smiles)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Also Adira announcing themself as nonbinary, much like their actor. I was wondering why the Powers What Is kept crowing about representation, given that while Blu themself is nonbinary, Adira had been designated as a her. Cool to see them assert themself.

    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?

    Considering that Adira has a bunch of previous hosts in her consciousness, then they and them are perfect pronouns for Adira Tal. It has nothing to do with being nonbinary.
    SARU: (referencing Adira's signal-interpretation algorithm) How long will that take?

    STAMETS: Not more than a few hours. She's pretty fast.

    SARU: Update me the moment you have something, Commander.

    STAMETS: Of course.

    (Saru and Tilly leave, Adira bends over console. A beat.)

    ADIRA: (looking up from console) They're fast.

    STAMETS: Who?

    ADIRA: Um - "they", not "she". I've never felt like a "she", or - or a "her", so I would prefer "they" or "them" from now on.

    STAMETS: Okay.

    ADIRA: And... I've never told anyone but Grey.

    (Stamets smiles)

    That was also explored back in DS9 somewhat, like when Ezri Dax mentioned that when she wakes up she often has to look under the covers to see if she is male or female. Jadzia Dax didn't seem to have the problem though that could be part of Jadzia being one of the more compatible and trained hosts.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Also Adira announcing themself as nonbinary, much like their actor. I was wondering why the Powers What Is kept crowing about representation, given that while Blu themself is nonbinary, Adira had been designated as a her. Cool to see them assert themself.

    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?

    Considering that Adira has a bunch of previous hosts in her consciousness, then they and them are perfect pronouns for Adira Tal. It has nothing to do with being nonbinary.
    SARU: (referencing Adira's signal-interpretation algorithm) How long will that take?

    STAMETS: Not more than a few hours. She's pretty fast.

    SARU: Update me the moment you have something, Commander.

    STAMETS: Of course.

    (Saru and Tilly leave, Adira bends over console. A beat.)

    ADIRA: (looking up from console) They're fast.

    STAMETS: Who?

    ADIRA: Um - "they", not "she". I've never felt like a "she", or - or a "her", so I would prefer "they" or "them" from now on.

    STAMETS: Okay.

    ADIRA: And... I've never told anyone but Grey.

    (Stamets smiles)

    That was also explored back in DS9 somewhat, like when Ezri Dax mentioned that when she wakes up she often has to look under the covers to see if she is male or female. Jadzia Dax didn't seem to have the problem though that could be part of Jadzia being one of the more compatible and trained hosts.
    In Adira's case, though, they're human. It's not a matter of the symbiont - they specifically said they had never felt like a "her". They're not gender-swapping, they're nonbinary.

    (One would think SF fans would be the quickest to embrace the notion...)
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    Honestly that's just absurd. Star Trek has already embraced the theory of quantum universes, see TNG Parallels. Every possible divergence creates a new universe, and time travel caused divergences do the exact same thing, see ST 2009, VOY Endgame. And this should affect everything, not just people, if it is at the quantum level. How about those whales from ST4 Voyage Home, the USS Bozeman, or the Doctor's mobile emitter, all permanently displaced in time and thus universes as well?

    This is really really dumb, and not remotely thought out, if it is as you describe.
    Except that isn't how quantum universes exist in Star Trek. As seen through numerous time travel episodes, you can go back and forward in time, change things, and still remain within the same universe. Just a different timeline of that universe.

    Quantum universes are fundamentally different on a subatomic level since the Big Bang. The whales, Voyager's endgame, the Bozeman, the mobile emitter, are all in the same quantum universe they originated in.

    The Kelvin timeline is a different quantum universe altogether, it just had the same history as the Prime Timeline up until Nero's incursion point.

    And we have seen this happen previously in Star Trek, specifically with Seven of Nine during the episode "Relativity"

    We haven't seen enough of the Kelvin Timeline to determine how similar it was to the Prime Timeline before 2233. So there could be some minor differences between the Kelvin and Prime Timeline. Parallels had a lot of realities that were extremely similar to the Prime Timeline while it had some minor difference like Cardassians in Starfleet.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Also Adira announcing themself as nonbinary, much like their actor. I was wondering why the Powers What Is kept crowing about representation, given that while Blu themself is nonbinary, Adira had been designated as a her. Cool to see them assert themself.

    I do wonder whether the ship in distress was a victim of the Burn, or managed to cause it via interaction with the signals from the pulsar. I am also curious about what's going on with Georgiou - apparently she actually is suffering spatial distortions during her episodes, it's not just indicating what she feels like. And are the phenomena linked somehow? Could the signal that caused the Burn be somehow causing anyone from the Mirror Universe to... decohere?

    Considering that Adira has a bunch of previous hosts in her consciousness, then they and them are perfect pronouns for Adira Tal. It has nothing to do with being nonbinary.
    SARU: (referencing Adira's signal-interpretation algorithm) How long will that take?

    STAMETS: Not more than a few hours. She's pretty fast.

    SARU: Update me the moment you have something, Commander.

    STAMETS: Of course.

    (Saru and Tilly leave, Adira bends over console. A beat.)

    ADIRA: (looking up from console) They're fast.

    STAMETS: Who?

    ADIRA: Um - "they", not "she". I've never felt like a "she", or - or a "her", so I would prefer "they" or "them" from now on.

    STAMETS: Okay.

    ADIRA: And... I've never told anyone but Grey.

    (Stamets smiles)

    That was also explored back in DS9 somewhat, like when Ezri Dax mentioned that when she wakes up she often has to look under the covers to see if she is male or female. Jadzia Dax didn't seem to have the problem though that could be part of Jadzia being one of the more compatible and trained hosts.
    In Adira's case, though, they're human. It's not a matter of the symbiont - they specifically said they had never felt like a "her". They're not gender-swapping, they're nonbinary.

    (One would think SF fans would be the quickest to embrace the notion...)

    I think it would help to understand what it means first. I sure don't. Adults can like whatever they want to, dress however they want, get whatever surgeries they want, but "nonbinary" is gibberish to me. Not "feeling" like a she or he doesn't mean anything. You are a she or he. Change which one if you need to, that's great, and it probably works well in the 32nd century.

    I mean, I've seen videos of people like that try to explain this, and the best I can tell, they think they change their sexuality with their mood or how they dress, which doesn't explain anything, nor does it help an outsider understand them at all. We all have days where we feel different or feel like dressing up or dressing down or whatever, but that doesn't change what we are. And no one is really normal, we are all quirky creatures. Now, I can easily believe some people genuinely feel this way, but this sort of thing is so ill defined it doesn't make sense and can easily be claimed by all manner of people who it really shouldn't be used by.

    Also, "they" is a plural pronoun. It is literally wrong to call a single person "they" and can easily cause confusion. I understand we don't have a proper word for this thing today, but I don't understand why they didn't invent a word for the show which is over a thousand years from now and with alien cultures that can claim to have actual words for this. That is something that could have been embraced quickly and help address these folks today in a way that doesn't cause confusion.
    Honestly that's just absurd. Star Trek has already embraced the theory of quantum universes, see TNG Parallels. Every possible divergence creates a new universe, and time travel caused divergences do the exact same thing, see ST 2009, VOY Endgame. And this should affect everything, not just people, if it is at the quantum level. How about those whales from ST4 Voyage Home, the USS Bozeman, or the Doctor's mobile emitter, all permanently displaced in time and thus universes as well?

    This is really really dumb, and not remotely thought out, if it is as you describe.
    Except that isn't how quantum universes exist in Star Trek. As seen through numerous time travel episodes, you can go back and forward in time, change things, and still remain within the same universe. Just a different timeline of that universe.

    Quantum universes are fundamentally different on a subatomic level since the Big Bang. The whales, Voyager's endgame, the Bozeman, the mobile emitter, are all in the same quantum universe they originated in.

    The Kelvin timeline is a different quantum universe altogether, it just had the same history as the Prime Timeline up until Nero's incursion point.

    And we have seen this happen previously in Star Trek, specifically with Seven of Nine during the episode "Relativity"

    The Big Bang has nothing to do with it. When a divergence happens there are two universes, one where A happened and one where it didn't. Time travel, by necessity creates quantum divergences, a reality where A exists at that moment, and one where it does not. Different timelines where different things happened in one and not the other are different quantum universes because that is precisely what causes a divergent quantum universe.

    The whales, for example, exist in two universes, one where they are hunted by whalers and thus went extinct, and one where they are rescued by Kirk et al. Prior to that divergence (which occurs when the crew goes back in time), there was one quantum universe for them. Earth is likely destroyed by the whale probe in the universe where they didn't go back in time.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,275 Arc User
    no, it is literally right to call someone they, because they is singular as well as plural, and has been that way since the 14th century

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they​​
    Like special weapons from other Star Trek games? Wondering if they can be replicated in STO even a little bit? Check this out: https://forum.arcgames.com/startrekonline/discussion/1262277/a-mostly-comprehensive-guide-to-star-trek-videogame-special-weapons-and-their-sto-equivalents

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
    "We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • kemaiku#5456 kemaiku Member Posts: 20 Arc User
    no, it is literally right to call someone they, because they is singular as well as plural, and has been that way since the 14th century

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they​​

    Honestly, I came out over 4 years ago as Non-binary, and this is a brick wall you don't want to waste your life banging your head against. Trying to get people to understand neo-pronouns is infuriatingly and ultimately pointless with many like him.

    I hated the idea of this new era of Trek trying to do any representation. That it took until 2017 to have TRIBBLE characters, then going for a near double 'bury your gays' which few if any franchises have even done before. Granted both are still alive, but good grief.

    Discovery has disappointed me for years, season 2 admitting to having massively messed up season 1, spending most of it either walking back that season or setting up a jump to the future pretty much being "wow, yeah, sorry". Even if the whole Red Angel nonsense was totally contradictory, and having Pike and the Enterprise appearing show what fans really wanted to see.

    I had hoped season 3 would continue along that path and try to remedy the series major problems, and after a year and a half of waiting, we got this...story (not being able to swear here is really slowing this down), and the Magic Mushroom drive and JesusBurnham! still being sledgehammered unrelentingly into the franchise, reducing Spock of all people to just being "her little brother".

    So, I don't trust them to write the single most interesting thing remotely subtley. When they hired two trans actors I should have been happy, but no news for us has exactly brought joy the last few years. I was terrified it would bring all the curiously cupious amounts of right wing fans of the woodwork.

    And yeah. Adira starts off being written as an infantilised cisgender character whose gender variance was (and still thanks to the ffff.....Trill being used as a shorthand for any LGBTQ story instead of JUST DOING IT OUTRIGHT) caused by an alien brain parasite just continues the trend of all non-binary representation being alien or something along those lines. To the point of watching them flinch and wince at the strangely over use of gendered pronouns before being allowed to use their own. And now Trek giving themselves an "out" by having the pronouns being potentially plural to cover the Tal past lives.

    I knew they would do this, I knew it would just be made "weird" to coddle bigots, I knew this argument would happen but damn I am so damned tired not only having to make people understand not being a man or a woman or having different pronouns generally but a "progressive" franchsie I've loved and grown up on for over 20 years treating us this way and other fans telling me I don't exist, while CBS sells shirts to profit off of us.

    Anyway...
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    So that is how they plan to get her back for the Section 31 series if it ever makes to to air. So far they have taken the most obvious (and least compatible) option for every "twist" they think will surprise the viewers. Pathetic.

    They also don't seem to realize that Discovery has jumped dimensions hundreds of times in spore travel since they leave prime and travel though the quantum fungus realm before popping back into prime (or elsewhere like mirror). Also that "designed to function in the time they are created" would mean some entropy effect and even normal warp drive plays games with time dilation which would mess that up.

    By that logic someone who has traveled to much in warp should have their molecules try to get back to their homeworld or jump into the future to follow the amount of time their FTL travel would have taken at sublight or some similar nonsense. I know Trek is not hard sci-fi, but DSC is a total space fairy tail.
    1. That's not really a plot twist.
    2. Warp drives bend space around the ship. The ship doesn't move through space at FTL speeds, and thus, don't suffer time dilation issues.
    3. Discovery doesn't leave the prime universe to jump via the spore drive. Just like going into Fluidic Space isn't leaving the Prime Universe. The Mycelial Realm, like Fluidic Space, is a subspace realm within the Prime Universe. It just happens to also connects to all other Mycelial Realms in all other universes.
    4. Even if they did, they exist outside of the Prime Universe for microseconds. Phillipa only has issues due to the extended length of being moved through both universes and time.
    5. Nope, nothing by that logic fits with what you describe. Again, since warp drives don't suffer from time dilation moving through space at warp wouldn't desync you with time, and thus, your molecules wouldn't have issues. Likewise, its based on your universe, not your homeworld. so they wouldn't be going back to your homeworld anyways.
    Honestly that's just absurd. Star Trek has already embraced the theory of quantum universes, see TNG Parallels. Every possible divergence creates a new universe, and time travel caused divergences do the exact same thing, see ST 2009, VOY Endgame. And this should affect everything, not just people, if it is at the quantum level. How about those whales from ST4 Voyage Home, the USS Bozeman, or the Doctor's mobile emitter, all permanently displaced in time and thus universes as well?

    This is really really dumb, and not remotely thought out, if it is as you describe.
    Except that isn't how quantum universes exist in Star Trek. As seen through numerous time travel episodes, you can go back and forward in time, change things, and still remain within the same universe. Just a different timeline of that universe.

    Quantum universes are fundamentally different on a subatomic level since the Big Bang. The whales, Voyager's endgame, the Bozeman, the mobile emitter, are all in the same quantum universe they originated in.

    The Kelvin timeline is a different quantum universe altogether, it just had the same history as the Prime Timeline up until Nero's incursion point.

    And we have seen this happen previously in Star Trek, specifically with Seven of Nine during the episode "Relativity"

    1. Twst, reveal, call it whatever you want, the point that they have so far always taken the most obvious and dull path with those plot points still remains.

    2. It is true enough that in warp you have whatever velocity you started with (usually orbital velocity in the case of TOS since they rarely ever used impulse). However if you look at it from the kind of fairy tail science-averse space magic viewpoint that Kurtzman's bunch uses warp could be said to be "cheating" relativity and time dilation issues the same way that being from another universe is somehow "unnatural" and some kind of affront to the universe that has to be forced out. This kind of arbitrary-rule based nonsense has always irritated me, like supposedly "natural" laws of magic that are based on artificial distinctions you find in a lot of books.

    3. While discussing the exact structure Trek cosmology is nice and all, it really is not relevant to the point. Any way you look at it they leave the dimension they are in and travel through another one before emerging into either their own again or a third.

    4. Again, duration is an arbitrary artificial issue, especially since time apparently either works somewhat differently there or it simply maps between stringspace and normalspace in some strange way as evidenced by their forward jump in season one.

    5. What I described wasn't logic, it was an illustration of the illogic of the fairy-tale thinking of Kurtzman's team is by applying their interpretation of quantum phenomena generally instead of arbitrarily. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the weirdness with Georgiou simply does not make any more sense than a fairytale with childishly simple arbitrary rules. At this point I would not be too surprised if they went to Xanthian levels of it (and yes, I am being cynical but the show, for all its good points, has too many seriously bad ones to be otherwise).

    As for the quantum spacetime continuums, they share the really weird dichotomy of quantum phenomena in that any particular one is both newly created by branching events AND always existing at the same time.

    Then there is the fact that the alternate Ensign Kim did not get drawn back into his original timeline, nor did George, Gracie, and Dr. Taylor fade out and reappear in the 20th century. And if Lorca was going to get drawn back anyway then why did he bother hijacking the jump to go home to the mirror universe instead?
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    Kemaiku, rewatch that scene. Or read the transcript I provided. Adira says they never felt like a "she" - it's not the symbiote, it's them. They tried to make themself be female because AFAB, but now they want to be known as who they really are.

    Fox there wants to take the "out" of "it's really a reference to all those Trill lives", but the script plainly says otherwise.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    > @somtaawkhar said:
    >
    > It is entirely relevant to the point. The whole argument is about why Phillipa is experiencing the issues she is, and its because of the dual factors of leaving her home universe, and excessive time travel. Going into the Mycelial Realm isn't leaving the universe, let alone going into another one. Dimensions =/= universes, and play no factor into the problem. The Prime Universe has multiple dimensions to it, from subspace realms like the Mycelial Network, or extra dimensional ones like Fluidic Space. you can hop between them all day and night and not have issues because, regardless of which one you are in, you are not time traveling, or changing universes.
    >
    > Except duration isn't an arbitrary issue, its a fundamental key aspect to the problem at hand. There is no time travel involved in the normal use of the spore drive. They time traveled once due to the unique natural of riding the shockwave from the Charon, rather then the normal use of the drive.
    >
    > Except we already saw a similar thing happen to Seven of Nine in the Voyager episode "Relativity". Kurtzman didn't make any of this up, hes just following canon.
    >
    > In real life science yes, in Star Trek land no. Its never been described to work that way. All that has ever been stated is that there is a universe where every possible action has occurred.
    >
    > If you actually read what I originally wrote, or go watch the clip, Phillipa is experiencing issues because shes from another universe, AND jumped through time.* The alternate Harry Kim didn't come from another universe, he came from another timeline of the same universe. And he moved into the same time frame of the other timeline as he originally came from.

    I don’t think I like it. How about Spock and Nero? They went through time and dimensions—if we accept kelvin dimension as distinct from the prime dimension.

    And If we accept that parallel timeline also create parallel universes—then every Star Trek time traveling story creates the same situation as Georgiou finds herself in...

    I don’t know, but it feels artificial and arbitrary too me—as have many descions in discovery like—spore drives, vorq as Tyler, time crystals, control as a renegade AI—just about every AI in the history of trek is sentient—and often they are evil.

    Synth band aside...Holodeck programs, computers, satellites all seem to run into the same problem .

    It is hard to suspend disbelief when new rules are introduced that feel very arbitrary.

    On the other hand, I am very barely invested in Discovery anyway... so I guess it doesn’t matter if it makes any sense.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    qultuq wrote: »
    I don’t think I like it. How about Spock and Nero? They went through time and dimensions—if we accept kelvin dimension as distinct from the prime dimension.

    Why does it need to be through time and dimensions, it could just be dimensions. A parallel Milky Way Galaxy in a different universe starting the same time as ours is just as valid as one starting early or later. So there are 23rd Century universes, 24th Century universes, and 25th Century universes. Timeline by Michael Crichton followed this form of "time" travel. The benefit of this type of time travel is that there is no need to worry about time travel paradoxes. It could be possible that travel between different dimensions is easier when the time is the same in both dimensions.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    no, it is literally right to call someone they, because they is singular as well as plural, and has been that way since the 14th century

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they​​

    Yes, its used that way when you don't know who you're talking about. It is quite a bit different when you're referring to a single, known person as "they" which is the issue I'm talking about.

    no, it is literally right to call someone they, because they is singular as well as plural, and has been that way since the 14th century

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they​​

    Honestly, I came out over 4 years ago as Non-binary, and this is a brick wall you don't want to waste your life banging your head against. Trying to get people to understand neo-pronouns is infuriatingly and ultimately pointless with many like him.
    ...
    Cool thanks for assuming my gender. You know damn well your condition is far outside the normal to the overwhelming majority of people. Expecting anyone to just understand something they absolutely can't relate to isn't reasonable, especially if they get a frustrated, dismissive, or even hostile reaction from you and people like you who are tired of trying to help people understand. It sucks, I'm sorry, but the sooner you stop getting angry about it the happier you'll be...
    ...
    I was terrified it would bring all the curiously cupious amounts of right wing fans of the woodwork.

    ...Especially if you learn to leave politics, which are completely irrelevant, out of it...

    ...I knew they would do this, I knew it would just be made "weird" to coddle bigots, I knew this argument would happen but damn I am so damned tired not only having to make people understand not being a man or a woman or having different pronouns generally but a "progressive" franchsie I've loved and grown up on for over 20 years treating us this way and other fans telling me I don't exist, while CBS sells shirts to profit off of us.

    Anyway...

    ...And if you stop calling people bigots because they don't understand you. No one is saying you don't exist, and its pulling that kind of BS that only causes further alienation for yourself. That isn't a way to get someone to care about you or try to understand you, no it instead makes people believe you just want to play the victim and get sympathy that way.

    Believe me, people like me are well aware that Hollywood doesn't care at all about proper representation of you or anyone like you, because they never have cared about proper representation of anyone or anything. They will preen and pretend all day, and you know they don't care, but hey they're "allies," right?


    I'm not going to continue this conversation further as its likely going to get the thread locked, but I'm happy to read your reply if you care to make one.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    1. Twst, reveal, call it whatever you want, the point that they have so far always taken the most obvious and dull path with those plot points still remains.
    Good narratives are able to be predicted because good writing follows logical paths that anyone who bothers to learn them can point out. There is a reason why the concepts of the monomyth, and the hero's journey, exist in the first place.
    2. It is true enough that in warp you have whatever velocity you started with (usually orbital velocity in the case of TOS since they rarely ever used impulse). However if you look at it from the kind of fairy tail science-averse space magic viewpoint that Kurtzman's bunch uses warp could be said to be "cheating" relativity and time dilation issues the same way that being from another universe is somehow "unnatural" and some kind of affront to the universe that has to be forced out. This kind of arbitrary-rule based nonsense has always irritated me, like supposedly "natural" laws of magic that are based on artificial distinctions you find in a lot of books.
    Warp has always "cheated" time dilation issues because time dilation was never a factor in warp, even in TOS, which came out before Kurtzman was even born. These sorts of Trekisms have existed since long before Kurtzman.
    3. While discussing the exact structure Trek cosmology is nice and all, it really is not relevant to the point. Any way you look at it they leave the dimension they are in and travel through another one before emerging into either their own again or a third.
    It is entirely relevant to the point. The whole argument is about why Phillipa is experiencing the issues she is, and its because of the dual factors of leaving her home universe, and excessive time travel. Going into the Mycelial Realm isn't leaving the universe, let alone going into another one. Dimensions =/= universes, and play no factor into the problem. The Prime Universe has multiple dimensions to it, from subspace realms like the Mycelial Network, or extra dimensional ones like Fluidic Space. you can hop between them all day and night and not have issues because, regardless of which one you are in, you are not time traveling, or changing universes.
    4. Again, duration is an arbitrary artificial issue, especially since time apparently either works somewhat differently there or it simply maps between stringspace and normalspace in some strange way as evidenced by their forward jump in season one.
    Except duration isn't an arbitrary issue, its a fundamental key aspect to the problem at hand. There is no time travel involved in the normal use of the spore drive. They time traveled once due to the unique natural of riding the shockwave from the Charon, rather then the normal use of the drive.
    5. What I described wasn't logic, it was an illustration of the illogic of the fairy-tale thinking of Kurtzman's team is by applying their interpretation of quantum phenomena generally instead of arbitrarily. It doesn't matter how you slice it, the weirdness with Georgiou simply does not make any more sense than a fairytale with childishly simple arbitrary rules. At this point I would not be too surprised if they went to Xanthian levels of it (and yes, I am being cynical but the show, for all its good points, has too many seriously bad ones to be otherwise).
    Except we already saw a similar thing happen to Seven of Nine in the Voyager episode "Relativity". Kurtzman didn't make any of this up, hes just following canon.
    As for the quantum spacetime continuums, they share the really weird dichotomy of quantum phenomena in that any particular one is both newly created by branching events AND always existing at the same time.

    Then there is the fact that the alternate Ensign Kim did not get drawn back into his original timeline, nor did George, Gracie, and Dr. Taylor fade out and reappear in the 20th century. And if Lorca was going to get drawn back anyway then why did he bother hijacking the jump to go home to the mirror universe instead?
    In real life science yes, in Star Trek land no. Its never been described to work that way. All that has ever been stated is that there is a universe where every possible action has occurred.

    If you actually read what I originally wrote, or go watch the clip, Phillipa is experiencing issues because shes from another universe, AND jumped through time.
    • The alternate Harry Kim didn't come from another universe, he came from another timeline of the same universe. And he moved into the same time frame of the other timeline as he originally came from.
    • George, Gracie, and Dr. Taylor only moved forward in time, and only once, and didn't jump universes.
    • Lorca moved universes but didn't move forward or backward through time. Not to mention he has no reason to know about this effect, and even if he did, the molecules move back. That doesn't mean you survive the trip.
    So none of the things you mention are the same, or even similar, situations as Phillipa is experiencing
    .

    I had to compress the post this is in reply too since this whole thing is too long.

    Good writing can sometimes be predicted, but more often bad writing is the more predictable because it is generally over simplistic and unimaginative. Take mysteries for example, a good one keeps you guessing until the end, while a bad one generally follows a hackneyed course and is obvious fairly early on (such as minor variants of "the butler did it") or has a character that only appears in the last few pages who "did it" just to make sure the reader does not guess who the villain is earlier (to use an extreme example for illustration).

    Unfortunately, the action movie format that DSC uses is full of those problems because all thought goes into the rule of cool and not into plot and dialog.

    In that second one you missed the point entirely, to Roseanne Roseannadanna levels in fact. I am not sure how you even got to that conclusion from what I said. I was pointing out how nonsensical Kurtzman's "molecules want to go home" thing was by taking it to the logical conclusion of his illogic and using warp drive as one of several examples.

    And yes, in traditional Trek warp drive avoids time dilation because relativistically speaking the ship only has the velocity it had before entering warp (usually orbital velocity in TOS since they did not use impulse like TNG does) since it is the space around the ship shifting position, not the ship itself. But again, that was not the point.

    Also, the issue is not cosmology, in fact the structure you talk about has never been thrashed out in the shows so the relationships between various dimensions/universes/quantum realms is not formalized. You are letting the words get in the way of the concepts. Yes, there is the moldy quantum superstring string layer in 'prime' but nowhere does it say for certain whether it is unique to 'prime' and somehow interacts with other unique superstring layers or whether it is all the same layer running though all of them.

    Dimension DOES mean the same thing as universe and as timeline often as not in the sloppy way they have always done it in Trek, which makes sense because the characters are just guessing about what they are seeing in the first place. And that itself is realistic since in theory quantum realities tend to be inherently self-contradictory dichotomies so they are often more than one of those labels simultaneously. At least the traditional Trek series didn't make the mistake of tying plot points to arbitrary labels instead of concepts quite as much as Kurtzman's bunch are doing.

    And no, we didn't see a similar thing to Georgiou's problem happen in Relativity at all. Relativity was a a good example of the classic fold story instead. Seven's molecules never decided they wanted to pack up and go home, what was happening is that she was getting sensory distortions from the paradox of being in too many places at once, compounded by holding open too many paradox branches before the finishing stroke that cut them off/released them/whatever.

    And that too many at once problem is supported by other episodes, like when Kirk was split along personal and moral trait lines but had to re-merge because of a mysterious malady they both suffered from. The only exception to that was Ryker and his successful long term split, but that is easily explained if he was a human chimera before the split (they are rare but do really exist) and he had two souls (or whatever you want to call it) in sync in that combined body that each took one of the physical copies so both were fully functional separately. That duplicate problem is implied to be why transporter clones are not usually viable, the copy is usually DOA.

    In fact, had Voyager succeeded in stabilizing both copies of the ship in Deadlock most of the crews would probably have fallen victim to the same effect eventually, with the exception of Kim, the baby, and whoever else lacked a duplicate.

    Nothing in traditional Trek supports that molecules just deciding to up and go home nonsense, even All Our Yesterdays, which is the closest it gets to that was a matter of entropy levels, and the Georgiou problem cannot be entropy since she comes from the same time as everyone else on the ship so she would have the same entropy level.

    The fact that she came from the mirror universe originally wouldn't even factor in since The Alternative Factor establishes that anything crossing from another universe gets its phases and polarities adjusted to match the the one they are entering, the only problem is when two of the exact same thing come across at the same time the first one blocks the second from getting properly adjusted and can cause leakage across the universal barrier. And that would only be a problem if two were alive and existing at once (in fact the time jump would probably fix the problem if that were the case rather than cause more problems).

    Mirror, Mirror itself uses that same idea in its own way, the transporter could not send anyone across one-way, it had to be a swap or it would take infinite energy to accomplish. DS9 dropped the ball on that one unfortunately, and DSC compounded the error, but the end result is the same for Georgiou, since her prime version is dead she slots into prime like a native on a quantum level (in fact, her relative mellowing could be a result of that adjustment to some extent).

    The fact that Kurtzman's bunch are using "universe" as a justification is simply bad writing that is unsupported by anything else in Trek, where things are more realistically murky about the boundaries instead of neat oversimplified pigeonholes.
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    C. Riker, not Ryker, wasn't a Chimera, and didn't have two souls. He just had a better transport duplication error owning to the better transporters of the era, and the differences in exotic phenomena that split him compared to Kirk. That is what makes transporter duplicates rare.

    I am surprised that no one in the 23rd or 24th Century ever thought of using an army of transporter duplicates in Star Trek. If one Kirk could save numerous worlds, then what about a thousand Kirks with their own Enterprises?
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