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Bad logic in "Best served cold" featured TFO or I failed on Trek Lore

Ok, I did today my daily Event mission, then I had a "WTF" moment.
The last part is defending the Satelite Control Station from 100 exploding dilithium freighters.
And here is my big problem:
1) The freighters explode - with more power than warp core breach of fully powered and armed warship
- is dilithium, or even dilithium ore explosive? As I understand it, it's not fuel for the ships, but material for creating shielding in matter-antimatter reaction chamber - it should have actually an anti-explosive properties. And we use "minning laser" to mine it at Vlugta asteroid mine! If it would be that volative it should explode during mining operations, and maybe blow the whole asteroid with it!
2) The dilithium is precious enough to be a currency in STO, and here we have 100 freighters sacrificed in kamikaze-style attack. I can't imagine any nation - even star-spanning empire making so costly attack. And here we have only house of Mo'Kai and their allies. Heck, I would not use that much nitrogen-based fertilizers for such attack, and they use dilithium ?! With that much dilithium they should be able to hire enough mercenaries, that they could just steam-roll any opposition...

So the mission may be fun, and pretty, but the logic of this attack... just make me astonished at the alien logic of... well.. aliens after all :D

Comments

  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,378 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    saber1973a wrote: »
    Ok, I did today my daily Event mission, then I had a "WTF" moment.
    The last part is defending the Satelite Control Station from 100 exploding dilithium freighters.
    And here is my big problem:
    1) The freighters explode - with more power than warp core breach of fully powered and armed warship
    - is dilithium, or even dilithium ore explosive? As I understand it, it's not fuel for the ships, but material for creating shielding in matter-antimatter reaction chamber - it should have actually an anti-explosive properties. And we use "minning laser" to mine it at Vlugta asteroid mine! If it would be that volative it should explode during mining operations, and maybe blow the whole asteroid with it!
    2) The dilithium is precious enough to be a currency in STO, and here we have 100 freighters sacrificed in kamikaze-style attack. I can't imagine any nation - even star-spanning empire making so costly attack. And here we have only house of Mo'Kai and their allies. Heck, I would not use that much nitrogen-based fertilizers for such attack, and they use dilithium ?! With that much dilithium they should be able to hire enough mercenaries, that they could just steam-roll any opposition...

    So the mission may be fun, and pretty, but the logic of this attack... just make me astonished at the alien logic of... well.. aliens after all :D

    I don't recall the mission dialouge so I may be wrong, but I don't recall anything explictly saying that the ships are actually carrying Dilithium.

    My interpretation would be that they're freighters usually employed in transporting Dil but were filled with explosives instead.


  • scotty74321scotty74321 Member Posts: 51 Arc User
    My guess is akar dont give a shtribble and i guess the warp core of these freighters going boom is enough of a headache to any ship in the vacinity cargo onboard or not though I would guess that dilithium in pure form once mined may burn or act as a catalyst within a warpcore breach that been atomised in the explosion adds significantly to the power of the exploding vessel,
    All speculation on my part .
    Laddy, don't you think you should... rephrase that??
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    saber1973a wrote: »
    Ok, I did today my daily Event mission, then I had a "WTF" moment.
    The last part is defending the Satelite Control Station from 100 exploding dilithium freighters.
    And here is my big problem:
    1) The freighters explode - with more power than warp core breach of fully powered and armed warship
    - is dilithium, or even dilithium ore explosive? As I understand it, it's not fuel for the ships, but material for creating shielding in matter-antimatter reaction chamber - it should have actually an anti-explosive properties. And we use "minning laser" to mine it at Vlugta asteroid mine! If it would be that volative it should explode during mining operations, and maybe blow the whole asteroid with it!
    2) The dilithium is precious enough to be a currency in STO, and here we have 100 freighters sacrificed in kamikaze-style attack. I can't imagine any nation - even star-spanning empire making so costly attack. And here we have only house of Mo'Kai and their allies. Heck, I would not use that much nitrogen-based fertilizers for such attack, and they use dilithium ?! With that much dilithium they should be able to hire enough mercenaries, that they could just steam-roll any opposition...

    So the mission may be fun, and pretty, but the logic of this attack... just make me astonished at the alien logic of... well.. aliens after all :D

    Dilithium crystals are used as a kind of control valve or regulator (Cameron 'lifted' the idea for his Unobtainium in Avatar). It would be sort of like using ships full of reactor control rods (not even fuel rods) as nuclear bombs, entirely ridiculous.
  • saber1973asaber1973a Member Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    Also from the "traditional" Star Trek (never saw any episode after the "ST Voyager") I was convinced that dilithium was precious, regulated "strategic" resource. We use it as currency, and one of the most worth - it is used in everything - upgrading gear, buying starships, fleet projects, gear, even buying Pheonix boxes. And it is the one currency that can be used in Exchange to Zen in STO.
    Now we see 100 freighters named "Dilithium freighter" coming to one place at the same time?
    It is suddenly so common stuff, that there are hundreds freighters needed for it?!
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 2,922 Arc User
    saber1973a wrote: »
    Also from the "traditional" Star Trek (never saw any episode after the "ST Voyager") I was convinced that dilithium was precious, regulated "strategic" resource. We use it as currency, and one of the most worth - it is used in everything - upgrading gear, buying starships, fleet projects, gear, even buying Pheonix boxes. And it is the one currency that can be used in Exchange to Zen in STO.
    Now we see 100 freighters named "Dilithium freighter" coming to one place at the same time?
    It is suddenly so common stuff, that there are hundreds freighters needed for it?!

    From what i know, Rura Penthe is a dilithium mine, so it's quite possible there is a fleet of haulers moving dillitium to the fleet and to other powers. Well is a forced labor dilithium mine.. but it's a mine...
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,036 Community Moderator
    If you look at the actual blast, it looks a lot like the blast wave from Praxis in ST6.
    Praxis_effect.jpg
    Could imply that raw dilithium could be volitile.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 2,922 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    If you look at the actual blast, it looks a lot like the blast wave from Praxis in ST6.
    Praxis_effect.jpg
    Could imply that raw dilithium could be volitile.

    Yeah, seems that Dilithium coud be unstable in raw form, or become unestable in an uncontrolled mater/antimater reaction..
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    was the explosion actually from the dilithium, though, or was it just the moon's core exploding from all the overmining (even though no matter what you do to a planetoid, it's impossible to make it explode - at least not enough to eject chunks away at escape velocities like we usually see with planetbusting), and the only reason it was that particular color is because a whole shirtload of dilithium ended up in it? they didn't make that clear in the movie, so it could go either way - though cryptic seems to have gone with the former route​​
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  • spacehermitspacehermit Member Posts: 287 Arc User
    The really weird bit is where Gowron's granddad says "all ships withdraw" just when there aren't any ships left TO withdraw!
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    saber1973a wrote: »
    Also from the "traditional" Star Trek (never saw any episode after the "ST Voyager") I was convinced that dilithium was precious, regulated "strategic" resource. We use it as currency, and one of the most worth - it is used in everything - upgrading gear, buying starships, fleet projects, gear, even buying Pheonix boxes. And it is the one currency that can be used in Exchange to Zen in STO.
    Now we see 100 freighters named "Dilithium freighter" coming to one place at the same time?
    It is suddenly so common stuff, that there are hundreds freighters needed for it?!

    Yes, it is a precious resource, in fact in TOS when Joanne Linville's character mentioned they were a poor but proud people that is what she was talking about. I thought Nemesis blundered badly by having Remus a dilithium source, but in light of the supernova stuff later on it does make sense from one of the Nemesis lines which described all the suffering and tragedy the miners went though to scrape up a pitiful few crystals or something to that effect.

    It could be that Remus is a lousy source of crystals, and the crystals may even be mostly inferior ones, but if they are the only ones available in a large enough area it would neatly explain why the Romulans settled Romulus in the first place if their colony ships were running low and they realized they were too far into a dil-poor area to backtrack, and it would preserve the facts already established about their being poor, and the need to develop the quantum point singularity technology.

    It would also explain why they took the risk of settling an area with star of questionable stability, especially since time could have made them complacent about it so they stopped keeping as close a watch and did not leave long ago when they should have with the development of the singularity technology.

    If the writers of PIC knew the background material better and listened to any science advisors they may or may not have they could have even fixed Abram's FTL supernova nonsense by having "hobus" or whatever as a distant binary companion of the Romulan sun. Those can orbit each other at a distance of light months, which would have been about right timing wise if they adjusted some of the other plot points a little to speed things up.

    Anyway, TOS showed the value of dilithium in other episodes too, like Mudd's Women with the dilithium miners willing to live in really nasty conditions because the crystals were so vital.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    there wouldn't have been any signs of questionable stability if it were natural, because any star THAT close to going supernova would be in a giant stage, not the yellow or orange dwarf eisen is depicted as in both nemesis and 2009 during the flashback scene (and in fact, dwarf stars aren't even supposed to be able to supernova at all - unless it's in a type 1 supernova, but that requires a binary star pair, which as far as i know, eisen doesn't have - they just don't have the necessary mass)

    which means the supernova was either UNnatural - or the writing crew is so utterly incompetent, they didn't even bother to do that little bit of research​​
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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 1,997 Arc User
    gaevsman wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    If you look at the actual blast, it looks a lot like the blast wave from Praxis in ST6.
    Praxis_effect.jpg
    Could imply that raw dilithium could be volitile.

    Yeah, seems that Dilithium coud be unstable in raw form, or become unestable in an uncontrolled mater/antimater reaction..

    something like dust in a flour mill or sugar mill can actually explode. that tablespoon of sugar won't neither withh the cup of flour, but in the factories the dust sure can
    giphy.gif
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  • saber1973asaber1973a Member Posts: 1,218 Arc User
    gaevsman wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    If you look at the actual blast, it looks a lot like the blast wave from Praxis in ST6.
    Praxis_effect.jpg
    Could imply that raw dilithium could be volitile.

    Yeah, seems that Dilithium coud be unstable in raw form, or become unestable in an uncontrolled mater/antimater reaction..

    something like dust in a flour mill or sugar mill can actually explode. that tablespoon of sugar won't neither withh the cup of flour, but in the factories the dust sure can

    Yeah, but that because it creates fuel-air mix and the dust got great reaction surface versus actual mass of dust particle, so it is easy to ignite.
    Here we are in space - there should not be enough air (or any other reactive element) to create fuel-air mix.
    And I still can't imagine having an actually that explosive substance in matter-antimater reaction chamber.
    The nuclear reactor control rods work through (I think) blocking (and maybe "catching") free fast moving neutrons, so the reaction can not spread.
    But the matter-antimatter reaction should work through actuall annihilation on contact between matter and antimatter - right?

    I know it is game and sci-fi game to that, so it does actually not need to follow logic and science, and maybe they are so advanced, that they find another way to do things, but Star Trek was always proud, that they follow science somewhat.
    STO - not so much. Example: why the ships in zero-g and no atmo would tilt sideways during turning? (and only when moving, not when turning when stopped). That makes no sense!
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,232 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    It would not be the Dilithium that dictates the size of the explosion at all, but the amount of anti-matter that caused it. As Dilithium is what controls the reaction, it has to be stable. It does not cause the 'explosion' within a warp core.
    saber1973a wrote: »
    gaevsman wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    If you look at the actual blast, it looks a lot like the blast wave from Praxis in ST6.
    Praxis_effect.jpg
    Could imply that raw dilithium could be volitile.

    Yeah, seems that Dilithium coud be unstable in raw form, or become unestable in an uncontrolled mater/antimater reaction..

    something like dust in a flour mill or sugar mill can actually explode. that tablespoon of sugar won't neither withh the cup of flour, but in the factories the dust sure can

    Yeah, but that because it creates fuel-air mix and the dust got great reaction surface versus actual mass of dust particle, so it is easy to ignite.
    Here we are in space - there should not be enough air (or any other reactive element) to create fuel-air mix.
    And I still can't imagine having an actually that explosive substance in matter-antimater reaction chamber.
    The nuclear reactor control rods work through (I think) blocking (and maybe "catching") free fast moving neutrons, so the reaction can not spread.
    But the matter-antimatter reaction should work through actuall annihilation on contact between matter and antimatter - right?

    I know it is game and sci-fi game to that, so it does actually not need to follow logic and science, and maybe they are so advanced, that they find another way to do things, but Star Trek was always proud, that they follow science somewhat.
    STO - not so much. Example: why the ships in zero-g and no atmo would tilt sideways during turning? (and only when moving, not when turning when stopped). That makes no sense!

    To counter it's interia and depending where it's RCS ports are, it makes perfect sense to bank throughout a turn, it would stress the hull too much 'flipping on the spot' to change direction. Everything still has mass in space, gravity or not. Star trek has it bang-on (Star Trek Online doesn't quite have it). If the ship has relative zero speed, it also makes sense to not do this.
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,378 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    As said in earlier post, Dilithium being involved is assumption. It isn't explicitly stated that those freighters are actually carrying Dilithium.

    Yes, they're referred to as "Dilithium Haulers" but that isn't confirmation that the ships we shoot at are actually carrying dilithium. The dialouge is sufficently vague that their cargo holds could just as easily be full of fragile/easily detonated explosives.


  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,053 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    As said in earlier post, Dilithium being involved is assumption. It isn't explicitly stated that those freighters are actually carrying Dilithium.

    Yes, they're referred to as "Dilithium Haulers" but that isn't confirmation that the ships we shoot at are actually carrying dilithium. The dialouge is sufficently vague that their cargo holds could just as easily be full of fragile/easily detonated explosives.

    possibly though I took Akaar's lines to mean he hijacked official Haulers via his virus. that said how much dilithium you typical starship actually carries? To me it seems that your average Starfleet of KDF starship wouldn't typically carry more then few kilos worth of Dilithium, few tons at most. While those freighters were probably carrying hundreds or even thousands of tons of dilithium per freighter.

    Also dilithium can still be relatively speaking rare and there still be more then enough to fill the 100 or so freighters we destroy, it's a big galaxy after all.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,036 Community Moderator
    The explosives theory doesn't line up with the blast waves they send out when destroyed though. Those blast waves match the one that Praxis had. That to me implies its more than simple explosives. Its something else.
    On top of that... if they were just loaded with explosives... he would have been planning this op for a LONG time, and had already managed to secure not only all those haulers, but loaded them with explosives rather than Dilithium. That I find hard to believe. Why hyjack them with his virus if he's already got control of them? And how would he hide the amount and type of explosives needed?

    No... I think they were hauling raw Dilithium Ore. And based on the blast waves, raw ore is volitile. Starships use refined Dilithium crystals in warp cores.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The explosives theory doesn't line up with the blast waves they send out when destroyed though. Those blast waves match the one that Praxis had. That to me implies its more than simple explosives. Its something else.
    On top of that... if they were just loaded with explosives... he would have been planning this op for a LONG time, and had already managed to secure not only all those haulers, but loaded them with explosives rather than Dilithium. That I find hard to believe. Why hyjack them with his virus if he's already got control of them? And how would he hide the amount and type of explosives needed?

    No... I think they were hauling raw Dilithium Ore. And based on the blast waves, raw ore is volitile. Starships use refined Dilithium crystals in warp cores.

    You have a point there. I just watched the ENT episode last night where they were mining "dilithium" and they were not mining crystals, instead it was a white crumbly sandstone-like substance.

    It is possible that the crystals do form naturally sometimes (like on Troyius) but that most industrial crystals are manufactured by processing some kind of weird compound containing (fictional) elements with subspace properties that could cause an energy-releasing quantum breach of some sort under the right conditions. And it may be possible to create those conditions by corrupting whatever field they normally use to damp the possibility of those conditions out.

    That would explain the weird blast pattern, the fact that the Praxis explosion was FTL, and even the robotic cracking station way back in The Cage if refining and crystalizing it was hazardous enough that the Federation preferred to do it without risking people.

    And it would fit the simple brute force style of the Klingons to refine the stuff on the spot on Praxis instead of carting bulky ore elsewhere because of a tiny possibility of it blowing up in their faces at praxis but not have a processing station on a slave labor
    rock like Rura Penthe where a civilian population would just be another possible escape vector, and using prisoners to refine it might result in one blowing up a valuable resource out of spite even though it killed them in the process.

    And since dialog in The Undiscovered Country mentions a subspace aspect it could explain why Qu'nos was not vaporized completely by such a wide-reaching explosion on their doorstep, the normal-space part of the explosion could be rather limited but the subspace part further reaching and only a problem for ships and whatnot actively using subspace fields like exist while the warp cores are active (even when idle).
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    edited November 2020
    qo'nos wasn't vaporized because the explosion didn't output anywhere NEAR the energy of a supernova, which is what you'd need to vaporize a planet - and even that wouldn't be enough energy unless it was an especially large one, because supernovae don't generally vaporize planetary bodies, just shatter them​​
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,036 Community Moderator
    And we do see USS Excelsior get tosses around like she got hit by a Tsunami when the blast wave hit.



    They even mention that the shockwave involved Subspace.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User
    Dilitium is a made up material that can do whatever plot needs it to do. They exploded en masse according to the Michael Burnham show at some point in the future of STO.

    You know what my problem with this mission is? It's written as if we are feddie bears. Why are we disabling and capturing prison escape ships? If this is suppose to be from the KDF point of view, those ships should be vaporized as they try and escape.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    probably because the klingons don't want to use their entire slave labor force...even though robots would be far cheaper to use, both in not needing to provide nutrition, medication or anything else organics need constantly to function as well as not needing guards to keep your 'work'force from rebelling or rioting

    slavery is stupid - as a general concept, but especially when you have access to robotics​​
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    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 9,245 Arc User
    probably because the klingons don't want to use their entire slave labor force...even though robots would be far cheaper to use, both in not needing to provide nutrition, medication or anything else organics need constantly to function as well as not needing guards to keep your 'work'force from rebelling or rioting

    slavery is stupid - as a general concept, but especially when you have access to robotics​​

    20 freighters of escaped prisoners are their entire slave labor work force? That seems awfully small. Also, you know what keeps the other 19 ships from attempting to escape? You vaporizing the first one that tries. And we have seen on screen that the Klingons prefer to latter method over a disable and capture tactic. So...like I said, this mission is written for feddie bears...NOT the KDF like they claim.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,053 Arc User
    > @coldnapalm said:
    > Dilitium is a made up material that can do whatever plot needs it to do. They exploded en masse according to the Michael Burnham show at some point in the future of STO.
    >
    > You know what my problem with this mission is? It's written as if we are feddie bears. Why are we disabling and capturing prison escape ships? If this is suppose to be from the KDF point of view, those ships should be vaporized as they try and escape.

    You seem labor under assumption that Klingons have serial killer style inability to not kill, rather then a dislike of "straw death" and thus generally not wanting to spare their enemies. However if instead of just looking for another reason to bash the majority of playerbase, you looked into those rumors about Klingon intelligence you'd found out them to be true.

    You'd also find out that Klingons are perfectly capable and willing to spare their targets should it suit their goals. Like here it has 2 major benefits to J'mpok's rule first he doesn't needlessly antagonize the Federation (please do note this TFO happens before J'mpok got his hands on J'ula's super weapon), second it sends the message that J'mpok does consider Akaar (and by extension J'ula) a worthy opponent (since he didn't consider the transports worth killing).
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