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The exorbitance of T5 ships

While I am grateful for the chance to keep T5 ships relevant in the meta game with their inclusion in the x-upgrade system, the cost of getting a ship to that level far outweighs their practical benefits.

Let's take a ship, say the Tempest class Heavy Patrol Escort. For this example I am going assume 3 things: 1) all items are at regular cost without sales, 2) the player has not reached tier 6 in reputation, so no free fleet modules, 3) the necessary tokens are purchased at their singular price.

First the c-store ship itself weighs in at 2500 zen, or ~€25

Second we want to bring it to fleet level, and a module costs 500z

Third we need a T5-u token, that's 700z

And finally we need the x-upgrade at 1000z

That's 4700z, nearly double the initial cost of the ship in question.

Now I understand sales can mitigate the cost, and no one would really buy anything outside of a sale, but it still seems unfair that a T5-U-X require such a cost.

My solution would be to humbly suggest the T5U tokens be dropped. They had their use when T6 ships were released, but that was 6 years ago. It's high time to drop the system and make all T5 ships auto upgrade.

Thoughts?
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Comments

  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 9,414 Arc User
    I have felt for quite a while that the 2500 Zen price on T5 Ships was the most prohibitive factor.

    These ships are capable of end game, but they are no longer true 'End Game Ships.' People want T6 ships for that. T5 still has some value for consoles and skins, but if that is their main draw, then they shouldn't be only 500 Zen short of a T6 Ship.

    Previously, the problem with dropping the cost is that then they are out of proportion with T1-4 Prices but that is no longer an issue with those ships in the Dilithium Store.

    Frankly to me, 1500 Zen seems a more appropriate price for T5 ships. I also agree that I wouldn't pay 1k Zen for a single X-Upgrade.
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  • redeyedravenredeyedraven Member Posts: 1,071 Arc User
    misterloz wrote: »
    First the c-store ship itself weighs in at 2500 zen, or ~€25

    Second we want to bring it to fleet level, and a module costs 500z

    Third we need a T5-u token, that's 700z

    With T6-reputations you can basically skip the first two points because of free FSM (you need more without the store-unlocked T5 tho).

    Then buy the upgrade-tokens from the exchange. No Zen spent.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,260 Arc User
    edited October 20
    I would agree with @seaofsorrows that T5 ships should be brought down in price. Especially since T1-4 ships were taken out of the Zen store, and made into dil ships. Bringing them down to 2,000 zen, and cutting the price of the T5-U token in half, would make sense IMO.

    That would bring the 4,700 zen cost down to 3,850 zen. Or about a 18% cost reduction. And as @redeyedraven pointed out, you can get FSMs for free via the rep system. And the X upgrade tokens can be bought from the exchange, bringing the price down even further.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 1,720 Arc User
    I only used one T5U upgrade when the T6s first came out, which was the one they gave us for free. I quickly switched most characters over to event ships that had free T5U upgrades and grabbed a few T6s. I have never liked what they did, especially not the pricing, and obviously T5s have only gotten worse in value as T6s are far more common and available.

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  • corinthalascorinthalas Member Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited October 20
    I would agree with @seaofsorrows that T5 ships should be brought down in price. Especially since T1-4 ships were taken out of the Zen store, and made into dil ships. Bringing them down to 2,000 zen, and cutting the price of the T5-U token in half, would make sense IMO.

    That would bring the 4,700 zen cost down to 3,850 zen. Or about a 18% cost reduction. And as @redeyedraven pointed out, you can get FSMs for free via the rep system. And the X upgrade tokens can be bought from the exchange, bringing the price down even further.

    No, just remove the upgrade-token nonsense entirely. T5U should simply be how all T5 ships work. And if that's too difficult to achieve, then have it work like the Hirogen Hunter heavy escort -- free.
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,088 Arc User
    Existing T5-FU including Lobi and Lockbox were replaced by better ships of the same type. The only thing retained by those is the skin unlock, admiralty card, and sometimes unique console or weapon or some other item and set bonus if it wasn't replaced outright by an enhanced variant of the same one.

    Often the consoles alone and their set bonuses have also fallen far behind despite even the buffs to their cooldowns, and makes the ship perform significantly worse in comparison to meta universal consoles.

    Now the whole legendary ships thing is replacing some existing T6-FUX with better ones. After all that, despite them saying no plans for T7, that's the only place left to go, to again completely replace everything you own and make it "still competitive" for yet another full price.

    What about honoring the existing support and existing players? New players join and would only acquire the newest legendary and likely skip out the old worthless stuff.

    They really do not care about your cash and time playing the game with such pricing and policy, so the only sucker is those who keep on giving these, at prices that are completely out of touch with the end-game content available.

    This may be the only big Star Trek MMO, but it's definitely not the only MMO out there, and not every other developer is so out of touch with the players, their own broken game they cannot fix, and the endlessly rising cost of stuff on a growing virtual garbage-item wasteland relative to end-game offerings.
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  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,260 Arc User
    edited October 20
    Existing T5-FU including Lobi and Lockbox were replaced by better ships of the same type.
    Not entirely accurate. There's still several T5 Lockbox and Lobi ships without a T6 replacement. Those being
    • Advanced Obelisk Carrier
    • Hirogen Apex Heavy Battlecruiser
    • APU Cruiser
    • Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort
    • Kazon Heavy Raider
    • Malon Battlecruiser
    • Nihydron Destroyer
    • Sphere Builder Arehbes Destroyer
    • Tholian Meshweaver Escort
    No, just remove the upgrade-token nonsense entirely. T5U should simply be how all T5 ships work. And if that's too difficult to achieve, then have it work like the Hirogen Hunter heavy escort -- free.
    Why? By this logic shouldn't they make the X upgrade also free since "that's how all ships should work"

  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 772 Arc User
    I still love the T5 Fleet Kamarag. Its similar to a D7 but different on the front head part. There a few more I like and never had a T6 either but yes agreed T5s are very expensive for what they are at the moment
  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    I still love the T5 Fleet Kamarag. Its similar to a D7 but different on the front head part. There a few more I like and never had a T6 either but yes agreed T5s are very expensive for what they are at the moment

    I had always hoped Cryptic would re-run the event or add somehow back into the ship stable that higher tiered Kamarag too, I think the Fed equivalent was the Ambassador. That Kamarag is such a good ship for that level, I never looked to see if there's a T6 equivalent darn lazy me.
  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 772 Arc User
    edited October 20
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    I still love the T5 Fleet Kamarag. Its similar to a D7 but different on the front head part. There a few more I like and never had a T6 either but yes agreed T5s are very expensive for what they are at the moment

    I had always hoped Cryptic would re-run the event or add somehow back into the ship stable that higher tiered Kamarag too, I think the Fed equivalent was the Ambassador. That Kamarag is such a good ship for that level, I never looked to see if there's a T6 equivalent darn lazy me.

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Kamarag_Battlecruiser_Retrofit

    I think you can still get it but only as Fleet ship

    and no its one of the KDF ships without T6 version

    Edit: I think that is when they got introduced:

    https://www.arcgames.com/pl/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/1016480-season-7-dev-blog-%25252525252335
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,088 Arc User
    Right, including Zen Store T5s without T6, though I imagine they'd make those into T6 eventually unless we're talking Nova.
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  • jexsamxjexsamx Member Posts: 2,771 Arc User
    No, just remove the upgrade-token nonsense entirely. T5U should simply be how all T5 ships work. And if that's too difficult to achieve, then have it work like the Hirogen Hunter heavy escort -- free.
    Why? By this logic shouldn't they make the X upgrade also free since "that's how all ships should work"

    I don't agree with his reasoning either but I do think he has the right idea - now that X-upgrades are a thing, any reason to continue offering T5-U tokens was significantly devalued.

    The whole point of T5-U tokens was to make sure people could use their T5's at endgame while they were still filling out the selection of T6 ships. Even after that selection was substantially expanded, they still held some value as an option for people who, for whatever reason, couldn't swing the cash for a T6 ship and/or didn't have any T6 event ships to fly instead.

    The situation with X-upgrades isn't 100% the same since there's no T7 to close the gap between, obviously. But what it does create is a situation where there is another tangible increase in power, widening the gulf between T5-U's and T6's. It doesn't make sense to continue to try to sell a powerup that no longer fulfills the purpose of closing the gap in a meaningful way. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy them anymore, so why bother to continue offering them? It's not like there's cosmetic value to a T5-U token, and the list of T5 ships that don't have T6 counterparts isn't terribly long, nor does it contain many ships people would typically clamor to have beyond a few roleplay enthusiasts.

    In short, it's got nothing to do with "that's how all ships should work" and everything to do with "there's no real point in offering this anymore since there's a more desirable option we can monetize so let's just make it standard".

    An alternative could be making all old T5's Dil ships like the T4's, as that would mean you'd still need tokens to upgrade them to T5-U, but you run into the same problem of them just not being desirable compared to a T6 ship or an X-upgrade.
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 678 Arc User
    um you need to make it a fleet version in order to upgrade it? I can't just upgrade my Obelisk? or my Kar'fi?
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  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 772 Arc User
    The Kar'fi does have a fleet version. If you mean the new experiemental upgrade it is more worth using on the "final" fleet version rather than the base one in my opinion. Advanced Obelisk is an unusual but cool ship - since I doubt it will ever be made T6, I am strongly thinking to upgrade it to T5-UX
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,144 Arc User
    Also, I just want to point out, this is assuming you're coming in fresh for a T5. Most people who are looking at making a T5 an X probably already have their preferred T5 at F5U. And most new people are probably going to skip T5 and jump straight to T6.
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  • foppotee#4552 foppotee Member Posts: 949 Arc User
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    I still love the T5 Fleet Kamarag. Its similar to a D7 but different on the front head part. There a few more I like and never had a T6 either but yes agreed T5s are very expensive for what they are at the moment

    I had always hoped Cryptic would re-run the event or add somehow back into the ship stable that higher tiered Kamarag too, I think the Fed equivalent was the Ambassador. That Kamarag is such a good ship for that level, I never looked to see if there's a T6 equivalent darn lazy me.

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Fleet_Kamarag_Battlecruiser_Retrofit

    I think you can still get it but only as Fleet ship

    and no its one of the KDF ships without T6 version

    Edit: I think that is when they got introduced:

    https://www.arcgames.com/pl/games/star-trek-online/news/detail/1016480-season-7-dev-blog-%25252525252335

    I remember somewhat now, that "special" higher-tiered event Kamarag was really good for its levels but, at least back then, having that ship didn't reduce the amount fleet-ship-modules (FSMs) needed for the fleet Kamarag. Such a simple but elegant looking KDF ship imo. Thanks or the link & info, lordmerc22.
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 39,958 Arc User
    > @nixie50 said:
    > um you need to make it a fleet version in order to upgrade it? I can't just upgrade my Obelisk? or my Kar'fi?

    Only the advanced obelisk from the lobi store can be upgraded
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  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,062 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Also, I just want to point out, this is assuming you're coming in fresh for a T5. Most people who are looking at making a T5 an X probably already have their preferred T5 at F5U. And most new people are probably going to skip T5 and jump straight to T6.

    Until I see a t6 Risian Luxury, I'll still use the t5, same for the Constellation class.
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  • gulremalgulremal Member Posts: 152 Arc User
    T5-U-X? More like T-5UX :)
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,414 Arc User
    I got the T5 Ody for my fed main when it was the hot thing to do and all bemoaned its extra console slot. I upped it to U when they introduced it with the first T6 ships and recently to X. Would the T6 Ody be better? Probably by 0,X%. But thats not enough to dish out any money. It would literally need to drop for free into my lap to consider a switch (If I had not upped the other to -x already).

    Also its not that I have any lack of T6 ships and use some of them for alts (event, shop, lockbox; stuff that logically would make more sense for a main char). I just like that "old" warhorse.

    I also don't even feel the urge to get more X upgrades for the rest of my alts hero ships. Maybe in a sale. And the first one in line for the next X would be the KDF main with her T5u Bort ;) But its much more likely I spend money on that than a new T6 ship of the same class of a T5(u) I already have.

    When I have chosen a "hero" ship for any of my chars I'm usually set. Thats it; thats Kirks Enterprise; thats Adamas Galactica; thats Gideon Excalibur etc. They are not underwear. Period. So I like that the life span gets increased and Cryptic apparently got that too (even though it took them a massive amount of time to get there :P ).

    Thankfully Cryptic is totally incapable of creating a fully customizable, engaging and bug free ship-interior housing system; otherwise my finances would probably be in trouble.
  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 772 Arc User
    Still I think Cryptic should find a way for T5s to be the "cheap starter tier" for new players once they get over lvl 50. At this point, excluding those that got free upgrade to T5U like adv. obelisk most get slightly more expensive than a T6 when fully upgraded(X included) for a TOTALLY new player. Its something they should consider. As for us who played for a while sometimes we buy a T5 for a Skin or to complete a set - I dont think anyone prefers to buy a T5 when there is a T6 equivalent but yes we will still use our existing T5Us at times.

    Personally only T5s I am interested on are Fleet Kamarag, Advanced Obelisk, Voth Dread, Fleet Kar'Fi and the Dyson ships

    all of them do not have a T6 equivalent and are ships i like
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 13,916 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Most people who are looking at making a T5 an X probably already have their preferred T5 at F5U.

    Yeah, whilst it would be an exaggeration to say that I don't have a choice, my choice to remain loyal to my favourite class of ship (Nova) which only has a T5 version (and no T6 version on the Horizon), means that it was my first ship in line for both the T5-U and the X-upgrade when they launched.


  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,260 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Yeah, whilst it would be an exaggeration to say that I don't have a choice, my choice to remain loyal to my favourite class of ship (Nova) which only has a T5 version (and no T6 version on the Horizon), means that it was my first ship in line for both the T5-U and the X-upgrade when they launched.
    Nova, Olympic, Luna.

    All are in that same boat.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 13,916 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    Yeah, whilst it would be an exaggeration to say that I don't have a choice, my choice to remain loyal to my favourite class of ship (Nova) which only has a T5 version (and no T6 version on the Horizon), means that it was my first ship in line for both the T5-U and the X-upgrade when they launched.
    Nova, Olympic, Luna.

    All are in that same boat.

    Yeah, although the Luna fans won't have to wait much longer.


  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,242 Arc User
    edited October 21
    Existing T5-FU including Lobi and Lockbox were replaced by better ships of the same type.
    Not entirely accurate. There's still several T5 Lockbox and Lobi ships without a T6 replacement. Those being
    • Advanced Obelisk Carrier
    • Hirogen Apex Heavy Battlecruiser
    • APU Cruiser
    • Hirogen Hunter Heavy Escort
    • Kazon Heavy Raider
    • Malon Battlecruiser
    • Nihydron Destroyer
    • Sphere Builder Arehbes Destroyer
    • Tholian Meshweaver Escort
    No, just remove the upgrade-token nonsense entirely. T5U should simply be how all T5 ships work. And if that's too difficult to achieve, then have it work like the Hirogen Hunter heavy escort -- free.
    Why? By this logic shouldn't they make the X upgrade also free since "that's how all ships should work"

    Ah, yes, and here comes our resident (redacted) on his snowy white charger, riding to the rescue, tilting at windmills in defiance of all logic, common sense, and marketing principles.
    Nova, Olympic, Luna.

    All are in that same boat.

    To be fair, I do thank you for mentioning the Olympic class, which is my personal favorite. My Fleet retrofit T5U-X is a murderball machine, but more for the build than the ship itself. I could transfer the same stuff to any other Science Vessel.
  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 772 Arc User
    Well they could make the T5U token(not the new experimental one) be bought with dill and add it to dill sinks in the game. I doubt they make lots of zen yearly from it anyways
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,260 Arc User
    edited October 21
    Ah, yes, and here comes our resident (redacted) on his snowy white charger, riding to the rescue, tilting at windmills in defiance of all logic, common sense, and marketing principles.
    Except logic, common sense, and marketing principles, all would say that, if something is perfectly functional as an end-game ship by itself, which all base T5 vessels are, that anything to make them more then that is a luxury, and thus, having a cost associated with it is normal.

    Now, if T5s weren't viable at end-game on their own, and needed the token to even remotely be usable, then I would agree that removing the cost would be the best option. Especially since theres like 37 of T5 ships that lack a T6 version, meaning people who prefer those ships would be entirely SOL on being able to use the ship they like at end-game.

    I would make that same argument if a hypothetical T7 was introduced, and we saw the same situation occur with T6s. I would make that same argument in other games. I would make that same argument outside of games. That's just basic common sense anywhere. The only thought process to argue again it is "me want free" which isn't a valid argument for anything, anywhere.
  • lordmerc22lordmerc22 Member Posts: 772 Arc User
    I would make that same argument if a hypothetical T7 was introduced, and we saw the same situation occur with T6s. I would make that same argument in other games. I would make that same argument outside of games. That's just basic common sense anywhere. The only thought process to argue again it is "me want free" which isn't a valid argument for anything, anywhere.

    Unlikely since scalling was introduced. The most possible whenever T7 comes(and will eventually come) is the T6s will be able to scale to T7 cause this way they wont have to redesign the entire "stable" of ships. They got the tech for it - just for monetization purposes the T7 may req some c-store token too
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,260 Arc User
    edited October 21
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    Unlikely since scalling was introduced. The most possible whenever T7 comes(and will eventually come) is the T6s will be able to scale to T7 cause this way they wont have to redesign the entire "stable" of ships. They got the tech for it - just for monetization purposes the T7 may req some c-store token too
    I think they game will shut down before we see T7s.

    Not only do we not have every T5 ship in T6, but theres no new mechanics for T7 to make it stand out.

    They will just keep pumping out new T6s until maintenance mode.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 13,916 Arc User
    lordmerc22 wrote: »
    Unlikely since scalling was introduced. The most possible whenever T7 comes(and will eventually come) is the T6s will be able to scale to T7 cause this way they wont have to redesign the entire "stable" of ships. They got the tech for it - just for monetization purposes the T7 may req some c-store token too
    I think they game will shut down before we see T7s.

    Not only do we not have every T5 ship in T6, but theres no new mechanics for T7 to make it stand out.

    They will just keep pumping out new T6s until maintenance mode.

    Its also worth nothing that their 'Legendary' line of ships appear successful. And what are 'Legendary' ships exactly? They are variants of existing ships, offerring different BOFF layouts/Specialisations etc over their pre-existing counterparts.

    No real need to go down the T7 route when you can continue that trend alongside introducing new ships (as they appear in the new series) and their own 'home baked' designs.



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