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[HOUSE DIVIDED] "The Centre Cannot Hold" and "Khitomer Discord" Feedback and Discussion

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  • grifter841grifter841 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    Does anyone know when "To Hell with Honor" is supposed to take place? It seems like it should definitely take place before "Khitomer Discord"...
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,100 Arc User
    Well, the Excalbians' results with Kirk ended up inconclusive, so it makes sense they wouldn't bring them back so they can have truly new data.

    But...but..Data is dead, and the Excabians didn't create any new Data... ;)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
    TOS_Connie_Sig_final9550Pop.jpg
    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • gilleylen#2528 gilleylen Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    Let me suggest what a year of Klingon SHOULD have been, ok?

    You have the removed mission with Miral Paris, you have unresolved missions with B'Vat, You could have brought back those missions for Klingon ONLY, you could have made DSC era Klingons, gave us DSC era head options!! you could have literally gave us a side to pick in the story *you have done this before* You could have remade K'mtar to look like his 2410 design, you could have highlighted K'mtar's death with better animation or a cutscene, you SHOULD have highlighted *what it means to be Klingon* instead of 5 skin options for guys only, 3 new foreheads, a entire new Khitomer uniform, and updated Klingon armor.
  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    instead of 5 skin options for guys only, 3 new foreheads
    Caitians who don't even have the haircut of their most prominent individual: "HA!"

    #TASforSTO
    Iconian_Trio_sign.jpg?raw=1
  • gilleylen#2528 gilleylen Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    you shown a picture and you see the hair is wrong, you see the ridges are wrong, they have the ridges in game too with the update, you can create with the new i think it is 11, I can actually make a better K'mtar with the update, if i can do it i would send the stats to get used even if it could be better, but please tell me how you drop pictures in a message so I can show the progress if I do try to make a better one

    about the B'Vat thing, one mission remains is finding the weapons he stored then it goes off on destroy the dooms day machine, how does those weapons connect to a doomsday machine? This is the Fed's story about B'Vat, you have 'The Briar Patch' mission and 'Doomsday Machine' I suggested that-

    B'Vat goes from being sad and depressed about those defeats (also in the past stories, you have a mission Kuvah'magh where B'Vat started an attack, on a Ferengi station you save an Orion who shares about B'Vat's obcession to find the Planet Killer which leads into the Doomsday Machine, When he escapes at the middle of the Doomsday Machine he goes to kidnap Miral Paris and goes toward the City of the Edge of Forever to use his past to save the Klingons from dying, then is killed) but they removed everything from finding the Orion to TELL you about the planet killer, to B'Vat's death. without any explanation or resolve. If talked to the Temporal Agent now he responds about the 'mess B'Vat created' but in the adjusted prime story, B'Vat is still alive NOR travelled in time,.. yet
    Post edited by gilleylen#2528 on
  • randwulf0969randwulf0969 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    j6ec7o02kqs51.png?width=769&format=png&auto=webp&s=8119d27476abd1532c38ff71770577229245b32c

    I really like SHANGDU, and think it would make an awesome Social Zone. (Not just a place to go during a couple missions.)
    I mentioned this in a STO Facebook group and the idea seemed popular.
  • therealblackkaostherealblackkaos Member Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    After playing the first two episodes and the TFO, I’m divided on the story. I like a full fledge Klingon civil war and Alliance chaos. It fits into the Star Trek story. However, I think the implementation is off and it’s due to the ST:D aspect for me. There where no real seeds of dissent brewing beforehand in the Klingon storyline before. J’mpok, although with flaws, appeared to have full support of all the great Houses. Now J’Ula comes and sows seeds of dissent by simply challenging him in the Great Hall and things fall apart. Not even cutscenes of her working behind the scenes? And J’mpok going full rogue doesn’t fit for me. So, my guess is that their angling for Martok to take over? I doubt they’d have him kill J’Ula the final story arc. I will admit that I have no real knowledge of Discovery’s storylines so I may be rushing to judgment. However, i can safely say the implementation of Discovery into the game just feels off for me from jump. And I’m sure I’m not the only one. But I am going to play through to see how it all shakes out.

    The TFO, in my opinion, is a mess. It’s too much going on. Escaping prisoners? Exploding freighters? A computer virus that requires you to stay in close proximity? Personally, I think it would’ve played better as a ground one instead of space. Although space combat is fun, this would’ve been a perfect time to make players get back into ground combat. But that’s just my opinion.

    Can’t wait to see what happens when the next episodes release on consoles.
    Post edited by therealblackkaos on
  • hanover2hanover2 Member Posts: 1,053 Arc User
    More Adet'Pa, please! I love her deadpan demeanor.
  • ultimatenewbieultimatenewbie Member Posts: 269 Arc User
    edited January 2021
    Let us know what you think of the two new episodes here!

    I have recently returned from a five-year break in playing STO.

    My initial reactions of the three new Klingon missions is that I was underwhelmed, confused and I found them incredulous.

    I would like to add my voice to the many others who have pointed out major, major flaws in the design of the story of these episodes, including the below. I will then conclude on inital thoughts about where this story might be going.

    Problems with the story
    1. The Centre Cannot Hold
    In this level, why would a Federation player like me be invited to an internal political discussion within the Klingon Empire? Having been invited to attend - and observing - why would I get involved in a shooting fight on the floor of the chamber? That sounds a lot like interference in another power's internal affairs to me; something a Federation character would only do in extreme circumstances. It is therefore quite odd that even the mission description from J'mpok describes my Federation character taking action to deal with J'Ula - me, not the KDF or the Chancellor himself. Also, J'Ula's argument that the Chancellor has no honour annoys me - given how often she has run from direct combat with me (and presumably the other major captains).

    I then travel around to various systems engaging in random battles with House Mokai ships that are what - 150 years older than mine yet they've got dozens, hundreds of them that are a decent match for the modern era? How big was this temporal anomaly that let them through? It feels more like an introduction to the new system patrol missions rather than a true storyline.

    This episode needed more political intrigue - something that the player could have nudged somehow - either by skulking in the back rows and coming across some tidpids from a drunk underling, and/or by using your diplomatic rank (gained by doff missions etc) to give an alternative, or - if i was going to intervene - then some form of speech with multiple options (just like the tutorial!) that could have pointed out that together the Federation and Klingon Empire have just fought a war against eachother, overcome differences, defeated invasions by the Borg, Dominion, Iconians, et al. Yet - there was none of that. And there should have been.

    2. The Khitomer Discord
    Again, J'mpok in the mission description tasks me with hunting down an internal politcal rival and approves killing her. This is wrong and undermines credibility in the story because it is just so inconsistent with what the Federation is. Had there been a mission or two before where you had elected to make a choice to 'go bad', or that it was clear that the Federation/Starfleet was turning evil after so much conflict, this could be made to make more sense - only, there hasnt been such a mission.

    We find out that J'Ula's war crime from a previous episode did not occur with her order (the mushroom attack on the civilian shipyards), but her other crimes remain hers (such as the destruction of the Federation space station). Also, slowest moving shockwave ever? If you can literally walk away from it - was the point that noone was to die? And why cant you get yourself out of a locked room as you've done 500 times before? I realise this was to add suspense, but it was just not credible.

    Oh, also, the magical computer virus that was presumably 150 years old that magically takes over the Starfleet ships is not credible. Maybe something that disables all computers on the ship perhaps - but not removing control and turning it over to an external force, because anyone designing systems would try pretty hard to stop that. And it being easily and quickly removed by an external input from your ship when they couldnt help themselves is also not credible - either its a major problem, or it is not.

    I really dislike how none of the other major ship captains have any interest in hearing your side of the story - given you have fought in so many battles together, they would be willing to hear you out. The KDF forces may still be required to follow the Chancellor's orders and/or challenge him to a duel, but all the others (Federation, Romulan) might back off at this point. Plus, there should have been evidence of J'mpok's action/war crime from the records of his own ship, plus any other ship in orbit (including your own ship that's still up there) to back it up. Sure, logs could be falsified, but its not like there is zero evidence to hand. Again, not credulous.

    3. Partisans
    This episode doesnt make sense because of the previous episode not making any sense - you shouldnt be on the run because you have hard evidence and you should have been able to convince your colleagues that you're not a total nutjob.

    But even so - this episode was a missed opportunity. How many times in TO have you had to go track down a difficult to find target - from Taris, to various Romulans and Remans, to specific individuals or to solve a mystery. This episode would have been a great opportunity to see how the player can deal with being on the other side of the coin - dodging their former colleagues in system after system using the tricks of the trade you have learnt over the last few years in the captains chair - odd/abandoned systems, using shuttlecraft, disguises, science/space magic, knowing the identity/locations of various intelligence officers and avoiding them, sending false signals and fake trails, always being on the move, not helping others as you usually would to not blow your cover, etc. Yet, we just fly to the edge of the sector block and then do some ground combat. Unimaginative.

    Where to from here - theorycrafting obviously
    Apparently these missions came out about six months ago - I am surprised that more have not been added since. This seems like an unusually long gap - iirc, previously arcs like Future Proof the various missions came out about a fortnight or month apart. Perhaps I remember incorrectly, though.

    Anyway, the key thing here is that the end of these Klingon missions is that neither J'mpok nor J'Ula are worthy of being Chancellor/Emporer, and it remains clear that Martok does not want to be so again. I think the most obvious direction this is taking (given the female Changeling is already dead so a replaced J'mpok is not likely) is that it is setting the pathway for the Klingon Empire to join the Federation.

    I think it can be argued (and probably long has been) that the Klingons have long been an allegory for Japan and the Soviet Union/Russia, on the basis that honour and family are central to Japanese culture, and the very heavy focus on military spending and the corruption arising from a small clique of unaccountable leaders are akin to the Soviet Union and politburo (see Praxis/ST VI Undiscovered Country coming out right after the fall of the Soviet Union).

    On this basis, perhaps the direction they are taking this is that the 'old ways' of the Klingon Empire being organised around great houses and those great houses coming together in a high council with a chancellor elected from amongst them is over. It is inferred (maybe its in canon that I dont know) is that the current system is long-held, but was not always the case (given there was an Emporer at some point). As such, given there is noone left fit to lead, this could be the instigator for radical change.

    It is similarly possible to argue that J'Ula's positioning for the old ways is the last gasp of radical conservatives that often indicates that radical change is about to occur - just as Japan's opening and modernisation was strongly resisted by the Samurai and traditionalists/conservatives. Usually this change is forced upon countries/powers because they've just lost a major war, but in STO this damage is all self-inflicted by the Klingon Empire. Still, even with the case of Japan, much of its culture was retained despite losing a major war - and this could be reflected in changes to the Klingon culture that endure (as we see Klingons as part of the Federation in various far-future episodes in the game, and also possibly in canon).

    So, with a far lesser degree of confidence, this could also be an opportunity for some happy-clappy Picard-based developments of freedom for all, votes for all Klingons (not just warriors, and not just noble houses), the end of feudalism in the Klingon Empire. It also raises a lot of questions about conquerored planets - do they join the Federation too, do they get a choice, etc. STO could mine this pit of implementation difficulties for a few more story arcs. Just as Future Proof and New Frontier arcs are about returning to exploring, the next Klingon arc could be about diplomacy and rebuilding (a bit like Picard's attempts with Romulus post-Hobus). Still, I am not convinced that the ST:Picard line is particularly valuable, but it is an opportunity to tie in such stuff. But again - please developers - give us options to nudge the outcome so that the player's decisions can be seen to matter (even if they are only at the margins like whether conquored planets are admitted separately so you dont need to break the storyline when talking about Klingons joining the Federation).

    In a year or two when all that's done, STO can then look at going through a similar process with the Cardassians, Romulans and finally the logistical nightmare that would be the Dominion joining (as they would now have a template based on the Klingons).

    And you could even have a couple of episodes of putting down some insurrections here and there, just to keep random battles going.

    Thoughts?
  • andrewndb#1834 andrewndb Member Posts: 44 Arc User
    Let us know what you think of the two new episodes here!

    I have recently returned from a five-year break in playing STO.

    *makes good points/criticisms*

    I started playing like 10 years ago, right when it came out. Played for a couple of weeks, then never again until a couple of months ago. I really enjoyed the stories and I back-to-backed them all. My personal favorite? All of the DS9 campaign, with so many of the DS9 cast brought in... that was beyond amazing.

    This new stuff, which kind of melds Discovery with the current STO stuff? As I've said elsewhere, I don't care one bit for Discovery (or even season 1 of Picard), but the level of care and attention to detail these writers pay -- generally -- to making it all "work" is super admirable.

    In summation, and my perspective in basically playing ALL the story stuff -- the latest "Khitomer Discord" stuff included -- back to back and very recently, is: there was a very high degree of quality and care to the missions and campaigns up until the Discovery ones (the two-parter with Abraham Lincoln and Burnham and Seven notwithstanding... that was batsh** crazy, in the best possible way!). It seems like there was very little "meat on the bones" in those, story-wise, and what little was there just served to surround patrol missions.

    No, I don't think they're heading towards the Klingon Empire straight up joining the Federation but that'd be a neat, fresh turn of events.
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