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Events of Enterprise may led to Different look of the Constitution Class And Other Eliminates

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  • ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But that doesn't explain the other Connies in TOS looking the same as Enterprise.
    Well The Enterprise her self could have been kind of a Test bed for the other Ships in the Class before they get the Refit them selves its Vary common that a Starship will receive a refit first before any other ships of that class. The Enterprise Her self is much older vessel then some other Constitution vessels it would make sense she be one first vessels to get the Upgrade and after extensiveness shakedown cruse and actual service for sometime that the upgrades are worth it then the rest of the vessels gets it. It was the Same thing that happen to the Enterprise again in 2272.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    DIS: took thousand of shots from hundreds of drones and dozens of capital ships and took no damage at all aside from a chunk taken out of the saucer because of a torpedo SPECIFICALLY designed to penetrate armor

    TOS took MAYBE two dozen shots combined over the entirety of the show's runtime - that is NOT a beating, by any stretch of the imagination, except for those living in severe delusion​​

    As much as I agree with you RE: the Discoprise's resilience, that's not necessarily a fantastic argument. An Iowa-Class battleship would shrug off a destroyer's 5" shells, but it's gonna take a pounding from anything bigger than an 11" gun and can expect pretty major damage from anything above (and including) 14" shells. There can be different magnitudes in weapon strength. More often than not when TOS Enterprise got shot up, it was against an equal or more powerful opponent (and people seem to miss how the TOS Enterprise would often be in critical condition after 2 or 3 hits at most against an equal Combatant). These are drones with little pop-guns relying on numbers and swarm tactics because the writers couldn't be fussed to represent actual battle tactics. Then the actual warships took a shot and suddenly the Enterprise was facing an actual threat.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,243 Arc User
    ryan218 wrote: »
    DIS: took thousand of shots from hundreds of drones and dozens of capital ships and took no damage at all aside from a chunk taken out of the saucer because of a torpedo SPECIFICALLY designed to penetrate armor

    TOS took MAYBE two dozen shots combined over the entirety of the show's runtime - that is NOT a beating, by any stretch of the imagination, except for those living in severe delusion​​

    As much as I agree with you RE: the Discoprise's resilience, that's not necessarily a fantastic argument. An Iowa-Class battleship would shrug off a destroyer's 5" shells, but it's gonna take a pounding from anything bigger than an 11" gun and can expect pretty major damage from anything above (and including) 14" shells. There can be different magnitudes in weapon strength. More often than not when TOS Enterprise got shot up, it was against an equal or more powerful opponent (and people seem to miss how the TOS Enterprise would often be in critical condition after 2 or 3 hits at most against an equal Combatant). These are drones with little pop-guns relying on numbers and swarm tactics because the writers couldn't be fussed to represent actual battle tactics. Then the actual warships took a shot and suddenly the Enterprise was facing an actual threat.
    Rewatch the battle that took place in 'Such Sweet Sorrow' pt2. Discovery and Enterprise were taking hits from the larger S31 ships.


  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,775 Arc User
    it wasn't ONE shot, they were firing everything they had - it's hard to see among the STO-esque LSD-fueled lightshow, but those destroyers were definitely firing beams just as fast as enterprise and discovery were firing theirs​​
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    It was hyperbole - the point was the drones weren't actually doing all that much, it was the actual warships that were doing the damage, and once they did start firing torpedoes... that's where my comparison to TOS comes in. Big E takes them about as well as you'd expect from TOS. I was just challenging the notion that the drones had much to do with it at all. Though I will admit it's hard to recall exactly what was going on between the capital ships with the epilepsy-inducing CGI.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    reyan01 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That isn't to say that I don't like the TOS Consitution, because I do - but in MY eyes, the design is too stretched, particularly the neck. In fact that is one thing I do prefer about the DSC and Movie refit variants of the Constitution class - the neck between hulls makes more sense in my eyes.

    I know right? If the TOS Connie too that hit to the neck the refit did in WoK, I swear Reliant would have sliced clean through. Enterprise was lucky that she not only had a thicker neck at that time, Reliant actually hit the Torpedo Launcher, which was the thickest part of the neck. And we kinda DID see that vulnerability exploited in Beyond. Also that Kelvin Timeline refit... I'm kinda Meh on. But that's another discussion for another thread.

    ape brain. The TOS connie took a BEATING in the series. The movie era one was like Glass Joe from Punch Out.....couple of hits.....DOWN.

    Sorry Smoke, but that is absolutely nonsense.

    STI (TMP): Tanked a shot from friggin V'Ger. And I will add that the attack she tanked one-shotted THREE K'Tinga class ships a short time prior to this.

    STII (TWOK): Attacked whilst shields were down by a ship with, basically, the exact same power and capabilities as well as a 'Captain' who knew what to target.

    STIII (TSFS): Had no crew (beyond the four on the bridge) - almost all system aboard subject to a fairly hastily constructed automation process courtesy of Scotty, who openly admitted that he hadn't expected the ship to engage in combat.

    STVI: Enterprise-A tanked shots from a BoP that could fire whilst cloaked. And yes, the relentless barrage of torpedoes did eventually get through her shields but again, she tanked repeated torpedo impacts againts a foe that they couldn't retaliate against.

    In TOS they tanked a number of hits from NOMAD, even after the first few buckled the shields down to single digit percentage of effectiveness. It only stopped shooting at them when Enterprise bullseyed it with a photon torpedo (which it shrugged off)
    followed by Kirk trying to communicate with it. NOMAD was firing bolts powerful enough to knock them right out of warp with the first shot, which has not happened very often (if at all) in other series.

    Apollo grabbed the ship right though the shields and shook and squeezed it a bit to demonstrate his power and the ship held up to stresses it was never designed to handle. Discovery took enough damage from a slow-moving space rock that it lost hull in chunks that were easily up to truck sized in the asteroid field they blundered into in S2E1.

    Tos Enterprise, after taking severe damage from a close encounter with a neutron star and limping up to enter orbit on battery power alone, with no shields or weapons, were then chased by an interceptor armed with a tactical nuclear missile. Spock pointed out that in their current condition the nuke might possibly do them significant damage with a direct hit.

    In both Journey to Babel and Elaan of Troyius the warp drive was sabotaged so they had to split the far smaller amount of impulse energy between movement, weapons, and shields against a ship at warp so they could not keep the enemy from hitting the hull through downed shields numerous times.

    In Balance of Terror they tanked a torpedo that in a few hits reduced a planetoid to gravel, the largest piece of debris was a chunk of cast rodinium small enough that Spock could easily wave it around using one hand. And yes, the one that hit Enterprise was losing cohesion and power by that point but it had so much to start with that it still hit hard.

    And there are other incidents but those should be enough to illustrate the toughness.
    DIS: took thousand of shots from hundreds of drones and dozens of capital ships and took no damage at all aside from a chunk taken out of the saucer because of a torpedo SPECIFICALLY designed to penetrate armor

    TOS took MAYBE two dozen shots combined over the entirety of the show's runtime - that is NOT a beating, by any stretch of the imagination, except for those living in severe delusion​​

    The drones were obviously a type of swarm unit which is probably not very powerful on its own but in large numbers can sting a ship to death, a "death by a thousand papercuts" approach. And that torpedo was going way too slow to believably do that much kinetic damage, it points more to a fragileness like that of the Discovery in that asteroid field and its slow rock hit. And in Mudd's Women Enterprise bounced a rock that looked as big or bigger on the viewscreen than the one that hit DSC , and they did that at warp.

    In TOS they often took half a dozen hits per combat, and from weapons that appear to be more powerful than the usual pew pew bolt thrower in DSC (like the main cannons of a D7). And the show was drama/action format, not mostly action the way DSC is so yes, they don't have quite the combats per episode ratio of DSC. The ones they do have most seem to involve heavier weaponry though.



  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 14,243 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    reyan01 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That isn't to say that I don't like the TOS Consitution, because I do - but in MY eyes, the design is too stretched, particularly the neck. In fact that is one thing I do prefer about the DSC and Movie refit variants of the Constitution class - the neck between hulls makes more sense in my eyes.

    I know right? If the TOS Connie too that hit to the neck the refit did in WoK, I swear Reliant would have sliced clean through. Enterprise was lucky that she not only had a thicker neck at that time, Reliant actually hit the Torpedo Launcher, which was the thickest part of the neck. And we kinda DID see that vulnerability exploited in Beyond. Also that Kelvin Timeline refit... I'm kinda Meh on. But that's another discussion for another thread.

    ape brain. The TOS connie took a BEATING in the series. The movie era one was like Glass Joe from Punch Out.....couple of hits.....DOWN.

    Sorry Smoke, but that is absolutely nonsense.

    STI (TMP): Tanked a shot from friggin V'Ger. And I will add that the attack she tanked one-shotted THREE K'Tinga class ships a short time prior to this.

    STII (TWOK): Attacked whilst shields were down by a ship with, basically, the exact same power and capabilities as well as a 'Captain' who knew what to target.

    STIII (TSFS): Had no crew (beyond the four on the bridge) - almost all system aboard subject to a fairly hastily constructed automation process courtesy of Scotty, who openly admitted that he hadn't expected the ship to engage in combat.

    STVI: Enterprise-A tanked shots from a BoP that could fire whilst cloaked. And yes, the relentless barrage of torpedoes did eventually get through her shields but again, she tanked repeated torpedo impacts againts a foe that they couldn't retaliate against.

    In TOS they tanked a number of hits from NOMAD, even after the first few buckled the shields down to single digit percentage of effectiveness. It only stopped shooting at them when Enterprise bullseyed it with a photon torpedo (which it shrugged off)
    followed by Kirk trying to communicate with it. NOMAD was firing bolts powerful enough to knock them right out of warp with the first shot, which has not happened very often (if at all) in other series.

    Apollo grabbed the ship right though the shields and shook and squeezed it a bit to demonstrate his power and the ship held up to stresses it was never designed to handle. Discovery took enough damage from a slow-moving space rock that it lost hull in chunks that were easily up to truck sized in the asteroid field they blundered into in S2E1.

    Tos Enterprise, after taking severe damage from a close encounter with a neutron star and limping up to enter orbit on battery power alone, with no shields or weapons, were then chased by an interceptor armed with a tactical nuclear missile. Spock pointed out that in their current condition the nuke might possibly do them significant damage with a direct hit.

    In both Journey to Babel and Elaan of Troyius the warp drive was sabotaged so they had to split the far smaller amount of impulse energy between movement, weapons, and shields against a ship at warp so they could not keep the enemy from hitting the hull through downed shields numerous times.

    In Balance of Terror they tanked a torpedo that in a few hits reduced a planetoid to gravel, the largest piece of debris was a chunk of cast rodinium small enough that Spock could easily wave it around using one hand. And yes, the one that hit Enterprise was losing cohesion and power by that point but it had so much to start with that it still hit hard.

    And there are other incidents but those should be enough to illustrate the toughness.
    DIS: took thousand of shots from hundreds of drones and dozens of capital ships and took no damage at all aside from a chunk taken out of the saucer because of a torpedo SPECIFICALLY designed to penetrate armor

    TOS took MAYBE two dozen shots combined over the entirety of the show's runtime - that is NOT a beating, by any stretch of the imagination, except for those living in severe delusion​​

    The drones were obviously a type of swarm unit which is probably not very powerful on its own but in large numbers can sting a ship to death, a "death by a thousand papercuts" approach. And that torpedo was going way too slow to believably do that much kinetic damage, it points more to a fragileness like that of the Discovery in that asteroid field and its slow rock hit. And in Mudd's Women Enterprise bounced a rock that looked as big or bigger on the viewscreen than the one that hit DSC , and they did that at warp.

    In TOS they often took half a dozen hits per combat, and from weapons that appear to be more powerful than the usual pew pew bolt thrower in DSC (like the main cannons of a D7). And the show was drama/action format, not mostly action the way DSC is so yes, they don't have quite the combats per episode ratio of DSC. The ones they do have most seem to involve heavier weaponry though.

    My points were not to dispute the TOS Constitution's resilience - it was to outline the fact that the refit wasn't as flimsy as was claimed.


  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    That isn't to say that I don't like the TOS Consitution, because I do - but in MY eyes, the design is too stretched, particularly the neck. In fact that is one thing I do prefer about the DSC and Movie refit variants of the Constitution class - the neck between hulls makes more sense in my eyes.

    I know right? If the TOS Connie too that hit to the neck the refit did in WoK, I swear Reliant would have sliced clean through. Enterprise was lucky that she not only had a thicker neck at that time, Reliant actually hit the Torpedo Launcher, which was the thickest part of the neck. And we kinda DID see that vulnerability exploited in Beyond. Also that Kelvin Timeline refit... I'm kinda Meh on. But that's another discussion for another thread.

    ape brain. The TOS connie took a BEATING in the series. The movie era one was like Glass Joe from Punch Out.....couple of hits.....DOWN.

    Sorry Smoke, but that is absolutely nonsense.

    STI (TMP): Tanked a shot from friggin V'Ger. And I will add that the attack she tanked one-shotted THREE K'Tinga class ships a short time prior to this.

    STII (TWOK): Attacked whilst shields were down by a ship with, basically, the exact same power and capabilities as well as a 'Captain' who knew what to target.

    STIII (TSFS): Had no crew (beyond the four on the bridge) - almost all system aboard subject to a fairly hastily constructed automation process courtesy of Scotty, who openly admitted that he hadn't expected the ship to engage in combat.

    STVI: Enterprise-A tanked shots from a BoP that could fire whilst cloaked. And yes, the relentless barrage of torpedoes did eventually get through her shields but again, she tanked repeated torpedo impacts againts a foe that they couldn't retaliate against.

    In TOS they tanked a number of hits from NOMAD, even after the first few buckled the shields down to single digit percentage of effectiveness. It only stopped shooting at them when Enterprise bullseyed it with a photon torpedo (which it shrugged off)
    followed by Kirk trying to communicate with it. NOMAD was firing bolts powerful enough to knock them right out of warp with the first shot, which has not happened very often (if at all) in other series.

    Apollo grabbed the ship right though the shields and shook and squeezed it a bit to demonstrate his power and the ship held up to stresses it was never designed to handle. Discovery took enough damage from a slow-moving space rock that it lost hull in chunks that were easily up to truck sized in the asteroid field they blundered into in S2E1.

    Tos Enterprise, after taking severe damage from a close encounter with a neutron star and limping up to enter orbit on battery power alone, with no shields or weapons, were then chased by an interceptor armed with a tactical nuclear missile. Spock pointed out that in their current condition the nuke might possibly do them significant damage with a direct hit.

    In both Journey to Babel and Elaan of Troyius the warp drive was sabotaged so they had to split the far smaller amount of impulse energy between movement, weapons, and shields against a ship at warp so they could not keep the enemy from hitting the hull through downed shields numerous times.

    In Balance of Terror they tanked a torpedo that in a few hits reduced a planetoid to gravel, the largest piece of debris was a chunk of cast rodinium small enough that Spock could easily wave it around using one hand. And yes, the one that hit Enterprise was losing cohesion and power by that point but it had so much to start with that it still hit hard.

    And there are other incidents but those should be enough to illustrate the toughness.
    DIS: took thousand of shots from hundreds of drones and dozens of capital ships and took no damage at all aside from a chunk taken out of the saucer because of a torpedo SPECIFICALLY designed to penetrate armor

    TOS took MAYBE two dozen shots combined over the entirety of the show's runtime - that is NOT a beating, by any stretch of the imagination, except for those living in severe delusion​​

    The drones were obviously a type of swarm unit which is probably not very powerful on its own but in large numbers can sting a ship to death, a "death by a thousand papercuts" approach. And that torpedo was going way too slow to believably do that much kinetic damage, it points more to a fragileness like that of the Discovery in that asteroid field and its slow rock hit. And in Mudd's Women Enterprise bounced a rock that looked as big or bigger on the viewscreen than the one that hit DSC , and they did that at warp.

    In TOS they often took half a dozen hits per combat, and from weapons that appear to be more powerful than the usual pew pew bolt thrower in DSC (like the main cannons of a D7). And the show was drama/action format, not mostly action the way DSC is so yes, they don't have quite the combats per episode ratio of DSC. The ones they do have most seem to involve heavier weaponry though.



    If you throw a rounded rock at a 2" steel plate, it might dent the plate a bit, but the impact will be spread over a fairly wide area due to said rock's irregular globoid shape. If you fire a similar-weight she'll with a pointed tip at a similar velocity at the same thickness of plate, it'll punch straight through. Because even though it's not that much kinetic force, it's all concentrated on an area measuring in a few millimetres as opposed to centimetres. Same difference as between round shot and a minie ball fired from the same musket.
  • ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    The Enterprise had Straight beam Shots like how it was in TOS The only different we see them in Different angles while she was Firing She had Teeth lets put it that way
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    ryuranger wrote: »
    The Enterprise had Straight beam Shots like how it was in TOS The only different we see them in Different angles while she was Firing She had Teeth lets put it that way

    The solid beams do look a lot more impressive than the anemic pulses they used all through first season, though since they are drawing movement power, shield power, and weapons power all from the impulse stack while the warp reactors are mostly sitting idle they are probably somewhat less effective than the TOS ones since in TOS they use warp to move leaving more energy for the other two, which could possibly explain the huge range difference between typical TOS and DSC combats.
  • smokebaileysmokebailey Member Posts: 4,100 Arc User
    I prefer this fan redo.
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  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    Now now everyone. Everybody knows that this is the best original Enterprise:
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,710 Community Moderator
    Nah... I give it to the legendary Gray Ghost herself.
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  • ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    LOL They Say that the TOS Enterprise still in Cannon and they may actually explain it During Strange New Worlds lets hope its one of our theories that's correct
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    ryuranger wrote: »
    LOL They Say that the TOS Enterprise still in Cannon and they may actually explain it During Strange New Worlds lets hope its one of our theories that's correct

    Explaining the difference is not that difficult, the title of this thread gives what is by far the most likely answer, though for the events in Enterprise to exist in turn requires a lot of the other time incursions too.

    A good idea for DSC fourth season would be a third season ender where Burnham figures out it will take a series of interventions to fix things instead of just one "domino" point and the Discovery ends up on a wild Sliders-like jaunt though alternate timelines as the sequence she sets off processes through. One of those alternates could even be the Kelvin timeline if they can get enough of the actors to do an episode at TV payrates (it could even work to test the waters and set a hook for the possible next Kelvin movie, which could act as an incentive for the actors to do it).

    At the end of that jaunt they could end up back home to find that things are slightly different but still more familiar than the alternates they travelled though, like Enterprise is slightly higher tech and does not have to be quite so big, the windows are gone (but the front wall is a huge screen the size of the window) and other things more compatible with TOS but not as limited by the '60s TV production values.

    It would not only be a great way to free them from the Control problem, if done right it could erase all knowledge of the spore drive outside of the Discovery itself and leave them with a truly secret weapon to get out of trouble with. It could also make for a lot of crossovers with the S31 show since Georgiou would know about the drive and could tap them for missions where it would be necessary to even the odds.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,710 Community Moderator
    Technically... all knowledge of the Spore Drive is already gone. Not only is Discovery, the ONLY ship with a Spore Drive in existance, stuck in the future, but literally EVERYTHING about her was classified so highly that it would never see the light of day again and revealing this information is right up there with visiting Talos IV. Death Penalty.

    Its even more classified than Genesis! And Genesis can technically wipe out entire planets with a single device!
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 310 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Its even more classified than Genesis! And Genesis can technically wipe out entire planets with a single device!

    Because fooling with the mycelial network could wipe out the entire universe. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Fo--oop, wrong universe.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Technically... all knowledge of the Spore Drive is already gone. Not only is Discovery, the ONLY ship with a Spore Drive in existance, stuck in the future, but literally EVERYTHING about her was classified so highly that it would never see the light of day again and revealing this information is right up there with visiting Talos IV. Death Penalty.

    Its even more classified than Genesis! And Genesis can technically wipe out entire planets with a single device!

    Nothing classified is ever "gone", someone has to know about it to monitor whether other people are finding out about it. And since Section 31 has its hooks so deep into Starfleet and the Federation government it would know about it, and that can easily be a very bad thing (though that is probably better left to the S31 thread).

    Smoothing some of the paradox out of the timeline with precision interventions could literally erase all knowledge of the spore drive from it except that at the center of the anomaly, the Discovery and crew. And if they keep their mouths shut they could keep an absolute lid on it as well as have a truly secret weapon in their hidden mobility.

    It would solve a lot of problems and allow the series to move forward without having to worry about the compatibility gulf that currently exists between DSC and TOS if they are able to handle the complexities of the plot (which I have serious doubts about, DSC's plots are generally about as subtle and deep as those of Blake's 7 or Buck Rodgers serials though in DSC the characters are handled better and the eye candy hides a lot of the shortcomings).
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,097 Arc User
    ryuranger wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But that doesn't explain the other Connies in TOS looking the same as Enterprise.
    Well The Enterprise her self could have been kind of a Test bed for the other Ships in the Class before they get the Refit them selves its Vary common that a Starship will receive a refit first before any other ships of that class. The Enterprise Her self is much older vessel then some other Constitution vessels it would make sense she be one first vessels to get the Upgrade and after extensiveness shakedown cruse and actual service for sometime that the upgrades are worth it then the rest of the vessels gets it. It was the Same thing that happen to the Enterprise again in 2272.

    yep. whenever you build more than 1 or 2 ships in real navies there are always test platforms in the Spruance class destroyers from the Navy, the Moosebrugger as the Sonar test platform, testing out what became the SQQ-89 sonar suite. Elliott was a radar test platform, and they built a huge shroud around her forward mast. others had test weapons, one had a 8 inch gun for a short time, another tested the rolling airframe missile. same thing with the Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7) class FFG-8, the McInerney, was extensively modified into what was the fight 3 configuration as a test bed for Sonar and the Lamps mk III helicopter.
    it makes sense that Enterprise was a test bed, and there is a lot to back that up, and a lot of tech changes explained. Enterprise was returning from a deep spaces mission, explaining why she had the more powerful phaser beams and the hangar bay full of tactical fliers. she was one of the first if not THE first to go on a 5 hear deep space mission.

    Why wouldn't they pack as much defensive armaments onboard as the could. coming home she needed a refit, so she got more powerful engines, and perhaps the warp field geometries, along with new alloys dictated the more vertical stick pylons, she also go that coating that gives her the uniform alabaster look we see in tos.
    The novelization of TMP explains that it was considered too much wight/mass to justify the small gains in protection it was suppose to provide) and again after Kirk's 5 year mission, Enterprise is chosen to undergo another Refit,
    this time stripping off the coating, adding pulse phaser technology, and she is clearly the test bed for new engine technology, defensive screens, and phaser technology. in each of those cases, there are references to that upgraded tech


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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,460 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Technically... all knowledge of the Spore Drive is already gone. Not only is Discovery, the ONLY ship with a Spore Drive in existance, stuck in the future, but literally EVERYTHING about her was classified so highly that it would never see the light of day again and revealing this information is right up there with visiting Talos IV. Death Penalty.

    Its even more classified than Genesis! And Genesis can technically wipe out entire planets with a single device!

    And that is extremely lousy writing to use the excuse of everything is classified to justify Discovery's existence. I am not sure what is worse, the entire season is a dream excuse or the everything is classified excuse.
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 8,814 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    And that is extremely lousy writing to use the excuse of everything is classified to justify Discovery's existence. I am not sure what is worse, the entire season is a dream excuse or the everything is classified excuse.
    The "we are going to classify it" excuse is one of the oldest in Trek. why else do you think none of the incredibly powerful stuff they discover is never mentioned or seen again?
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    starkaos wrote: »
    And that is extremely lousy writing to use the excuse of everything is classified to justify Discovery's existence. I am not sure what is worse, the entire season is a dream excuse or the everything is classified excuse.
    The "we are going to classify it" excuse is one of the oldest in Trek. why else do you think none of the incredibly powerful stuff they discover is never mentioned or seen again?

    Like what? It's not like that happens that often! I mean, there's the Omega Particle...the Genesis Device...the Iconian Gateways, the Changeling virus, Section 31, the Phase Cloak, the Pegasus Mutiny (admittedly that's linked to the Phase Cloak), the USS Defiant's Ablative Armour, the USS Defiant's cloaking device, Time Travel, the Borg (ENT, 'Frozen')...

    Okay, maybe a few things.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,775 Arc User
    ablative armor isn't classified - hell, the sovereign and prometheus both have it as well, and probably other classes but those are the only two known ones​​
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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    ablative armor isn't classified - hell, the sovereign and prometheus both have it as well, and probably other classes but those are the only two known ones​​

    Note, "the Defiant's Ablative Armour". In 'Paradise Lost', Captain Bentine reports that having engaged the Defiant, the Defiant has been equipped with ablative armour by someone "without notifying Starfleet". Considering the outfits of most ships are pretty well-known, especially to their own side, I'd say the Defiant's defensive systems being unknown qualifies as 'classified'.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,775 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    yes, the ablative armor prototyped on the defiant is the same ablative armor that eventually made it to other classes, as it was part of starfleet's anti-borg R&D project, so clearly it can't be classified if it's on other ships

    as for starfleet operations not being notified - given who they were fighting against, i consider whoever installed defiant's updated defenses deliberately omitted it for reasons of security, not because it's classified​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,450 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    ryuranger wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But that doesn't explain the other Connies in TOS looking the same as Enterprise.
    Well The Enterprise her self could have been kind of a Test bed for the other Ships in the Class before they get the Refit them selves its Vary common that a Starship will receive a refit first before any other ships of that class. The Enterprise Her self is much older vessel then some other Constitution vessels it would make sense she be one first vessels to get the Upgrade and after extensiveness shakedown cruse and actual service for sometime that the upgrades are worth it then the rest of the vessels gets it. It was the Same thing that happen to the Enterprise again in 2272.

    yep. whenever you build more than 1 or 2 ships in real navies there are always test platforms in the Spruance class destroyers from the Navy, the Moosebrugger as the Sonar test platform, testing out what became the SQQ-89 sonar suite. Elliott was a radar test platform, and they built a huge shroud around her forward mast. others had test weapons, one had a 8 inch gun for a short time, another tested the rolling airframe missile. same thing with the Oliver Hazard Perry (FFG-7) class FFG-8, the McInerney, was extensively modified into what was the fight 3 configuration as a test bed for Sonar and the Lamps mk III helicopter.
    it makes sense that Enterprise was a test bed, and there is a lot to back that up, and a lot of tech changes explained. Enterprise was returning from a deep spaces mission, explaining why she had the more powerful phaser beams and the hangar bay full of tactical fliers. she was one of the first if not THE first to go on a 5 hear deep space mission.

    Why wouldn't they pack as much defensive armaments onboard as the could. coming home she needed a refit, so she got more powerful engines, and perhaps the warp field geometries, along with new alloys dictated the more vertical stick pylons, she also go that coating that gives her the uniform alabaster look we see in tos.
    The novelization of TMP explains that it was considered too much wight/mass to justify the small gains in protection it was suppose to provide) and again after Kirk's 5 year mission, Enterprise is chosen to undergo another Refit,
    this time stripping off the coating, adding pulse phaser technology, and she is clearly the test bed for new engine technology, defensive screens, and phaser technology. in each of those cases, there are references to that upgraded tech


    According to comments by Roddenberry and Jefferies Enterprise actually was rather experimental. Some of the points of difference are:

    Unlike the DSC version, the TOS version never had the phaser ball turrets that most Constitution class ships had, it had a track phaser system where the emitters rode the ring around the dorsal and ventral sensor domes (which is why they fire from there instead of the turret positions). If physically damaged or blown clear of the ship more emitters were dispatched from storage via the turbolift tubes and would "grab on" to the track when exiting the tubes. In fact, there is a fan theory that the cylinder directly behind the bridge was the exit door for the phaser emitter at the top of the tube and that the bridge car would actually move to a niche off to the side which is why it is off center inside instead of directly behind the command chair (which makes sense since otherwise it would block the emitter from getting out).

    As shown in "Elaan of Troyius", the Enterprise had six forward tubes instead of two like most of the other Constitutions mentioned later (Kirk ordered "forward tubes two, four, and six" readied to fire at the Orion ship for instance). Roddenberry said they went with the six forward, four rear tube configuration of US WWII submarines for the show but they never enumerated the rear tubes in dialog, only the fact that Kirk had to specify "forward" canonized the fact that there were rear tubes before ENT showed one firing in "In a Mirror, Darkly".

    It is likely that Constitution and Enterprise had two different weapons configurations, with the Connie itself more "gun" heavy with the more numerous ball turrets while Enterprise was more torpedo heavy to test and see which is more effective, and it is something that has been done in realworld navies often enough. Apparently the admiralty liked the ball turret version better since all the other ships since have been shown with them instead of Enterprise's track phasers. It would have made an impressive visual to have actually seen them in action close up in DSC instead of the ball turrets the DSC version has, but Kurtzman's crew have a hard enough time with well-known Trek facts there was little hope they would pick up on an obscure one like this, more's the pity.

    Supporting that onscreen, there was a chart display at one point that showed that Constitution and Enterprise were the first two Mark IX ships of that hullform since everything below the "1700" registry point showed lower Mk numbers (Commodore Matt Decker's ship was on the list as a Mark VII which probably explains the low hull number and slightly different proportions and details). Since the chart was in the background and not explicitly hashed out TNG technobabble style in dialog some people here will undoubtedly consider it "non canon" however.

    According to Jefferies the white coating is not paint, it is an ablative ceramic coating that is easily reapplied to help keep the friction wear of the armor down (tritanium's claim to fame is molecular stability against disintegrator style weapons like phasers and disruptors, not abrasion resistance) and to add a little more protection against thermal extremes and light/heat based weapons. The pearlescent look the TMP model had is actually the correct look for the coating but it would have been a waste of time for 1960s TV and it even turned out to be so much of a problem to film in the movies that they ended up repainting it with the usual flat paint.

  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    yes, the ablative armor prototyped on the defiant is the same ablative armor that eventually made it to other classes, as it was part of starfleet's anti-borg R&D project, so clearly it can't be classified if it's on other ships​​

    Okay, how does the F-22's avionics work? It's in use by multiple units, so clearly it isn't classified. /sarcasm

    Aside from which, it is perfectly possible for a system to be deployed on several ships publically, but for its presence on one or more other vessels to be classified. Bentine didn't know the Defiant was equipped with ablative armour. If it was something Defiant was publically known to be equipped with, she would be aware of it even if it took her pulling up the latest edition of Jane's All the Galaxy's Fighting Starships. Since she didn't know, and made a point of telling Leyton that she (and apparently Starfleet Command) didn't know, it clearly wasn't widely circulated and, thus, classified.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,775 Arc User
    it's not classified - end of discussion

    the ONLY ablative armor that is even REMOTELY possibly classified is voyager's ablative generator​​
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    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • ryan218ryan218 Member Posts: 35,751 Arc User
    it's not classified - end of discussion

    the ONLY ablative armor that is even REMOTELY possibly classified is voyager's ablative generator​​

    Then why didn't Bentine know about it? Explain that. If it wasn't classified that Defiant was equipped with ablative armour, Bentine should have known about it before engaging.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,775 Arc User
    i already answered that - maybe if you weren't such a TRIBBLE cherry picker, you'd know why​​
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

    RIP Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Rayshard Brooks & Calvin Munerlyn

    blacklivesmatter.png

    #LegalizeAwoo

    A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
    An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
    A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"


    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
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