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Proposed total revamp to PvP

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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    trennan wrote: »
    This proposal sounds a good deal like the Tiered system I mentioned the last time it was brought up.

    Just with a Faction 0 setting.

    I wasn't in on that discussion. Got a link so I can review it?

    It's like your mentioning, just without Faction 0.

    It's a rebalancing act of it back to vanilla. You start at Tier 1, which gives you access to T1 ships and VR Mk XII gear. It also limits the traits and skills you can use to that level. So Tier 1 would the same as level 10 skill/trait wise.

    Then as you level up in Tier it will unlock T2 ships and level 20 skills/trait.

    This can be done all the way up to T6 which is the full unlock.

    The only thing I advised here was keeping lockbox and ship traits and consoles locked out. Which keeps the playing field balanced there on base game.

    But instead of creating another shard for it. I said to keep what we currently have, and add a Tier queued system. This way, even a T6 player could queue for the T1 matches and participate with the T1 restrictions.

    The only thing here I see that would need to be done, other than a revamp of the pvp maps, would be the skill/traits. It would require a PvE and PvP setup. So, would need a second loadout for that. But, with this, the PvE loudout is locked out for PvP and the PvP loadout is locked out for PvE.
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  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,331 Arc User

    Once new PvP system is working as intended, on the main server, switch everyone to faction 0 after revamping the core game to no longer even reference the 2-faction system. All players would be Alliance.

    So to achieve this, you'd have to dispose of the Klingon/Fed War, half the Romulan storyline and all other episodes UNIQUE to each faction. It just wouldn't sit right with anyone losing that many missions, that especially link into the Alliance missions that all factions can play.

    Undoing the core game code in this manner has already been discussed and rejected due to the sheer amount of work it would take.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 3,845 Arc User
    OR, they could just say no, and not divert resources from the game that 99% of the players would prefer to have.

    there are a few facts you need to understand
    1. most gamers do not want to PvP
    2. Cryptic has finite resources
    3. they will never balance/develop PvP until there is a way to make more money from it that from lockboxes
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    FF14 actually does some PvP stuff right. Completely divorcing PvE from it. You don't even have the same abilities as you do in PvE maps, and as far as I know gear means squat. Its mostly class based, and a bit of a rock-paper-sissors thing on which is effective against which.
    Although before they forced freelancer status on everyone, meaning you are put in a random Grand Company for the PvP, Maelstrom used to dominate, at least on my server. Was kinda rare for Twin Adders or Immortal Flames to win.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    FF14 actually does some PvP stuff right. Completely divorcing PvE from it. You don't even have the same abilities as you do in PvE maps, and as far as I know gear means squat. Its mostly class based, and a bit of a rock-paper-sissors thing on which is effective against which.
    Although before they forced freelancer status on everyone, meaning you are put in a random Grand Company for the PvP, Maelstrom used to dominate, at least on my server. Was kinda rare for Twin Adders or Immortal Flames to win.

    That's kind of where I was aiming with the Tiered system. Not so much forced random grouping. It just doesn't scale to level, you have to work your way up to max tier.

    The only divorce between the the two I'm putting in there is the skill/trait side of it. Basically just a mirror of what we have. So you get a PvP and a PvE skill tree and trait setup. They could add a lobby as well. A place you enter before queuing up, that gives you a chance to redo traits and gear.

    I mean with this system you could even do it as if leveling again.

    Tier 1 = T1 ships and Mk II gear.
    Tier 2 - T2 ships and Mk IV gear.
    Tier 3 = T3 ship and Mk VI gear.

    With this, you could even add Tiers above 6, which would unlock Mk XIII+ gear, along with Ultra Rare and Epic gear.
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  • thetaninethetanine Member Posts: 1,367 Arc User
    There's more chance of William Shatner doing voice work for Star Trek Online than Cryptic putting any form of development into PvP. Sorry to burst anyone's bubble but Cryptic have no interest in taking the game in that direction

    Word to the STO-Foes!
    STAR TREK
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    I am not sure I get it? The constant faction changes are going to feel weird, it seems to me.

    I suppose it could work if you could create a "persona" for each faction, and the ships you have are basically all generic science/engineering/tactical ships and you just pick a faction-appropriate skin? So you're not constantly choosing between completely different ships and builds based on some random process.

    Ah, well, I am not sure why anyone would build this for STO. Sounds like something you make a new game for, because it is so different from what you have that you'd be constantly fighting against existing design assumptions, and frustrate a lot of of the existing players that get a type of content they're not even interested in, and they got nothing until you have this new PvP system sorted out.
    Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    as for the ships, im good with starting at T1 level and working the way up, but at what juncture does one move up?

    My interpretation is that you move up with wins, but get knocked back down when you lose.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Yea... that's a bit severe.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited September 2020
    Well, with the ability to gain/lose prestige. A leaver's/afk penalty is actually rather simple. You lose double the amount of prestige you would have won, had you actually won the match. Then you get a stacking dishonorable debuff. For this we can make is a stack of four. The first stack cuts your prestige gain by 25%, second 50%, third 75%, forth 95%. This leaves you the ability to continue to gain prestige. But until you recoup what you lost with the leaver/afk penalty, you're stuck the dishonorable debuff.

    Edit: Just to ad an example of what I mean here.

    Let's say that winning a PvP match with this nets the player 500 prestige. Getting the leaver/afk penalty means taking a loss of 1000 prestige.

    This means at x1 Dishonorable you're gaining 375 points per win.

    As x2 Dshonorable you're getting 250 points per win.

    At x3 Dishonorable you're getting 125 points per win.

    At x4 Dishonorable you're getting 25 points per win.

    With the debuff, if you're a x4, you've got 4,000 points to make up at 25 points per win(not including any kill points earned), before it goes away and you're back to getting the full 500 points per win.
    Post edited by trennan on
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  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    Regardless of what we think, the developers mentioned in a live stream that a separate server for PVP with the maintenance and periodic updates is simply not a viable option.

    Best option to ever revive any sort of PVP community is PVP with pre-made ships. To avoid a layout similar to the Dyson ship in one of the most dreaded missions ingame the premade ships could be submitted by players excluding Lobi/ promotion ship gear/traits.
    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    Regardless of what we think, the developers mentioned in a live stream that a separate server for PVP with the maintenance and periodic updates is simply not a viable option.

    Best option to ever revive any sort of PVP community is PVP with pre-made ships. To avoid a layout similar to the Dyson ship in one of the most dreaded missions ingame the premade ships could be submitted by players excluding Lobi/ promotion ship gear/traits.

    PvP could be done on the main server as well, but it does need to be segregated from PVE, so that either can be adjusted individually without impacting the other.

    And you may be on to something with the pre-made ships thing.

    While it may be more generic in terms of the ships that can be played in a given battle, it would mean that both sides can be more balanced. It's at least a viable option to lay out on the table with everything else.

    But then the same problem occurs as with the exploration clusters and the foundry: you're creating essentially a separate entity within the game which needs to be maintained and updated.

    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
  • questeriusquesterius Member Posts: 8,301 Arc User
    questerius wrote: »
    questerius wrote: »
    Regardless of what we think, the developers mentioned in a live stream that a separate server for PVP with the maintenance and periodic updates is simply not a viable option.

    Best option to ever revive any sort of PVP community is PVP with pre-made ships. To avoid a layout similar to the Dyson ship in one of the most dreaded missions ingame the premade ships could be submitted by players excluding Lobi/ promotion ship gear/traits.

    PvP could be done on the main server as well, but it does need to be segregated from PVE, so that either can be adjusted individually without impacting the other.

    And you may be on to something with the pre-made ships thing.

    While it may be more generic in terms of the ships that can be played in a given battle, it would mean that both sides can be more balanced. It's at least a viable option to lay out on the table with everything else.

    But then the same problem occurs as with the exploration clusters and the foundry: you're creating essentially a separate entity within the game which needs to be maintained and updated.

    I know, right?

    See this hypothetical discussion hypothetically assumes that at some hypothetical point the people that make the decisions will give enough of a hypothetical damn to hypothetically actually treat everything like part of the game instead of just bits and pieces that get tossed out there and forgotten...

    ...Hypothetically speaking.

    The question is not if they care enough, but if the investment will pay off.
    With the massive investment needed and the ever shrinking PVP community (which was never large compared to the PVE community) the answer seems an obvious no.

    This program, though reasonably normal at times, seems to have a strong affinity to classes belonging to the Cat 2.0 program. Questerius 2.7 will break down on occasion, resulting in garbage and nonsense messages whenever it occurs. Usually a hard reboot or pulling the plug solves the problem when that happens.
This discussion has been closed.