Why are we still doing this? Either they have the info they need or not.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Tried to go give one more go logged back in after resetting my network, Force verified game and In Dyson Battle Zone I cannot TRIBBLE move without rubber banding.
Tracert actually looks good
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms ttrouter [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms ae54-ner002.csm.as13285.net [78.144.1.19]
4 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms ae54-scr101.loh.as13285.net [78.144.1.18]
5 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms akamai.prolexic.com [195.66.224.31]
6 12 ms 13 ms 12 ms po110.bs-b.sech-lon2.netarch.akamai.com [72.52.60.200]
7 12 ms 13 ms 13 ms a72-52-1-137.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [72.52.1.137]
8 14 ms 13 ms 13 ms ae121.access-a.sech-lon2.netarch.akamai.com [72.52.60.205]
9 82 ms 82 ms 82 ms 93.191.173.11
10 89 ms 88 ms 89 ms a209-200-171-102.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [209.200.171.102]
11 103 ms 92 ms 91 ms 198.49.243.237
12 88 ms 88 ms 88 ms patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.184.200]
Your ISP should offer services shaped by your business type. Hey you are a Bank, then go through our Akamai pipe. You are an Online Gaming business, then we offer our Frazawatsis pipe. (Note the Frazawatsis is made up, but whatever ISPs use to host the other Online Gaming businesses that don't have this issue).
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Ok clamed down a bit now still very pissed at server performance and will not drop a single penny on this game again until it back to pre-2016 standards. Hell I had a better experience when this game had a iMac port, worked better on that platform than it has ever done on Windows it's primary platform.
Mood swings having to make a few lifestyle changes after hitting diabetes type 2 threshold and going sugar free.
My patience is over, my resolve to struggle and battle through the lag and rubber banding has ran out. I'm out. Time to find another game to play and one that is supported by it's company. Bye STO you have failed me for the last time.
Yeah, I returned (again) this year for the Risa event and stuck around for the Red Alert one hoping to finish the overall event when it begins next week as I haven't got much left to go, but no. I'm so beyond done.
It's funny that above ESO is brought up as an MMO that has a lot of issues too and yes I know its rep because I play that one too, but outside of known problematic instances and full server burndown I rarely see much, both EU and NA server. I really don't care who in the company is responsible for the complete lack of anything done but I'm out until such a time as it gets fixed.
Maybe it was time several MMO companies got together and collectively sued Akamai to get their **** and provide the service they've been paid to provide.
Akamai IS providing the services they promise... They are a security solution designed to throttle data flow at a certain level to prevent DDoS attacks on networks under their protection. Akamai is NOT the internet service provider. Now PWE's ISP probably uses Akamai's security solution because they also service the sort of institutions and services that need what Akamai provides. And if those institutions and services collectively pay more than PWE pays, what incentive do they have to compromise the security of those institutions and services for the sake of a game that doesn't even require any of its players to pay a dime to play?
This is a very complicated and convoluted issue. It sucks. I don't fault anyone for walking away from this or any other game impacted by it. It still isn't CRYPTIC'S fault, as they have no control over the ISP or the security measures said ISP chooses to use. PWE may not have a legal ground they can stand on because their business model does not mandate that their customers pay to access their services, and any revenue they generate is entirely on an opt-in basis.
The only real solution to the issue is likely the rise of an ISP that only provides services to online games, whose security measures are tailored around the kind of traffic the type of online game being served needs. No need for Akamai-level throttling. A DDoS attack on an MMO server would require way way more connections per second than what Akamai regulates. But Akamai's threshold is so much lower because it needs to protect those other services and institutions that are vulnerable at that threshold and are far more important to society than a free-to-play game.
Said online-games-only ISP would need to be able to provide the connection speeds needed at a price that would be cost effective to MMO companies to switch over to. And the MMO companies will need to be able to find a data center in said ISP's service area that can handle the games' data needs that would make the relocation cost-effective. And if the contract with the data center would have to be breached, that may not be so easy.
See one of the things that is not always clear, the data center and the ISP also are generally not the same entity. This means that Cryptic, while having their games hosted by a data center is not actually in control of that data center, and the data center in turn has no control over the ISP. That adds another layer of complexity to the issue.
This is an opportunity fo enterprising individuals to open up ISPs and adequate data centers in the areas affected by Akamai and offer cost effective relocation and ISP switching options to PWE and whomever else would need to make the decisions. This would be the ideal solution, but it would also take time to get everything in place. Whomever may decide to capitalize on this needs to do so now in order to gain the momentum they will need for the endeavor to be sustainable long-term.
It can't be me. I don't have the investment capital the venture would require... But that does not mean that others can't.
The question is... Will they?
You are really weirdly invested in defending Akamai and PWE.
And if this service is what Cryptic/PWE the contract with Akamia for them to provide, a game that's unplayable, then the whole legal department should be fired because someone haven't done their due diligence and made sure that the DDoS protection doesn't hamper game play regularly.
Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end of it.
The biggest question, is why all other mmo games we play dont lag like that. If it was a general problem, we should be seeing it daily on other games(for me ESO, SWTOR, Elite Dangerous). Yes occasional lag can happen on the other games but its very rare while on STO is the normal. Moreover population spikes I remember always brought even more lag which suggests to me they are paying for a cheap low bandwidth server or something
The biggest question, is why all other mmo games we play dont lag like that. If it was a general problem, we should be seeing it daily on other games(for me ESO, SWTOR, Elite Dangerous). Yes occasional lag can happen on the other games but its very rare while on STO is the normal. Moreover population spikes I remember always brought even more lag which suggests to me they are paying for a cheap low bandwidth server or something
The particular way that the STO engine is coded probably makes the rubberbanding component of the lag a little more noticeable than other games, but the issue is not limited to STO or even just Cryptic games in general. And if the engine actually is more prone to rubberbanding when lag hits then that will take a lot of time and resources to fix.
For example ESO does not rubberband anywhere near as much but it has little glitches and pauses and other signs of it. In fact, I usually get better performance playing ESO's EU server instead of NA even though I am in the northeastern US and the ping to the EU server is a lot higher than the ping to the NA one. The exception is when EUs database lookups melt down which they tend to do more than the NA ones. I have taken to playing both servers in the lower population hours because of the irritating glitches the game gets during busier hours.
SWTOR always has a sort of muffled feel to it which hides some of the performance issues, though it does rubberband too at times. I don't play Elite Dangerous so I have no idea how that one reacts to the traffic shaping and throttling.
Also, the fact that STOs problems got worse in 2016 probably has something to do with going to better graphics, higher polycounts, and lighting 2.0 around that time since it increases packet traffic, on top of the loss of net neutrality shortly thereafter.
Also, the fact that STOs problems got worse in 2016 probably has something to do with going to better graphics, higher polycounts, and lighting 2.0 around that time since it increases packet traffic, on top of the loss of net neutrality shortly thereafter.
None of that should increase traffic as its all done local and shouldn't be sent over the network. They might create the feeling of lag via low FPS but that's not the same as rubberbanding and network lag.
Omg lol that gif is so funny and true sometimes I see my char doing that. Running only to lag out and teleport all over place. But this is been ongoing problem for years.
"My life spans millennia. Legions have risen to test me… My ascendance is inevitable. A day, a year, a millennium—it matters not. I hold the patience of stone and the will of stars. Your striving is insignificant. Let your death be the same."
Ok clamed down a bit now still very pissed at server performance and will not drop a single penny on this game again until it back to pre-2016 standards. Hell I had a better experience when this game had a iMac port, worked better on that platform than it has ever done on Windows it's primary platform.
Mood swings having to make a few lifestyle changes after hitting diabetes type 2 threshold and going sugar free.
Yep, needle a day with Toujeo insulin pen, ranks right up there with rolling down a hill full of poison ivy nekkid.
"Nuke the entire site from orbit--it's the only way to be sure"
Also, the fact that STOs problems got worse in 2016 probably has something to do with going to better graphics, higher polycounts, and lighting 2.0 around that time since it increases packet traffic, on top of the loss of net neutrality shortly thereafter.
None of that should increase traffic as its all done local and shouldn't be sent over the network. They might create the feeling of lag via low FPS but that's not the same as rubberbanding and network lag.
It does increase the packet traffic though since it means more detailed descriptions, like more material options, more layers for color and other properties which can be changed and therefor must be described, and anything else that has options in the game instead of being static.
Lighting 2.0 has multiple light sources, and from the looks of shadows on Risa they also have to use kludges to some extent, and those all have to be described even though they do not move anymore. It would probably be simpler if they used raytracing, but that would require a much more sophisticated engine and higher hardware requirements that could lose them a lot of players.
While I have not gone hacking the game files to be sure, I highly doubt that every single location in the game is fully mapped out in the installed files, the game is just not enough of a disk hog for that and most MMOs use dynamic map loads anyway, and all that loading traffic from every player switching maps would be hitting the same nodes close to the source. And again, more detailed maps with more detailed lighting means more packet traffic.
Also, even when using locally stored textures, the textures generally do not map to the surfaces in exactly the same way, they are rotated, sized, and distorted to produce various looks, and that has to be described in some way.
On top of the increased options, the move to the mass wave combats is another thing that adds to the problem, the more chaos that goes on the more descriptions it requires. I am not sure when the current combat style came in, but just going by what people say in chat and on the forum here it sounds like the game started with fewer but stronger opponents and gradually moved to the current avalanche of trash mobs with a few bosses thrown in.
In fact, the current trend towards more and more big AoE attacks also causes more traffic, because while the client can make guesses as to which other units are in the area and some of the effects it would have it still has to sync those guesses with the server whenever it can.
Packets are not that big, it is kind of like sending a highly detailed blow-by-blow of a sports event (including positions, actions, and everything else about every single player and object on the field) by SMS. So it takes a lot of packets just to keep it all in sync, plus there are all the actions you do with your mouse and keyboard that are sent back up quickly, even if they do not fill a packet completely.
Addition: Running PingPlotter, it turns out that at the moment
72.52.27.212 a72-52-27-212.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com has over 50% packet loss and everything following it is showing a heavy packet loss as well (which could actually be caused by this Akamai site too). And packet loss is one of the main causes of rubberbanding and other lag effects.
Also, the fact that STOs problems got worse in 2016 probably has something to do with going to better graphics, higher polycounts, and lighting 2.0 around that time since it increases packet traffic, on top of the loss of net neutrality shortly thereafter.
None of that should increase traffic as its all done local and shouldn't be sent over the network. They might create the feeling of lag via low FPS but that's not the same as rubberbanding and network lag.
“While I have not gone hacking the game files to be sure, I highly doubt that every single location in the game is fully mapped out in the installed files, the game is just not enough of a disk hog for that and most MMOs use dynamic map loads anyway, and all that loading traffic from every player switching maps would be hitting the same nodes close to the source. “
To be honest I forgot about that as I switched it off something like 11 years ago. By default, the game is not fully mapped out in install files and downloads via dynamic demanding patching. But you can switch it off and download the entire game to speed up loading screens and stop all that extra data transfer. Switch off “On-demand patching “ and the next time you load into game it will download gigs of data basically the entire game without dynamic map loads. Which massively helps with lag and network problems and speeds up loading screens.
The way I see it is if someone users Power A then the same amount of data is sent only locally its rendered different if Lighting 2.0 on or off. All the lights and shadows are not being sent across the network. The only thing that is sent is the power activating then the game looks locally to see how to render it. Players don’t see the same shadows and lighting as none of that is sent via the packets.
EDIT:
The best example I can think off is last time I turned on and moved dynamic lights like the torch none of the other players could see it neither can I see there torch's. Rendered locally only.
So not to be a jerk or anything, but I just came to the realization that I play NeverWinter without experiencing any lag whatsoever where as Star Trek Online from the same company experiences a lot of lag all the time. (I usually play STO for a few hours then NeverWinter) So that means it's not my PC or my Internet connection. Is there any way to apply the resources that NeverWinter uses to Star Trek Online?
Good lord your connection sucks. Not only rubber banding all over the show in Dyson BZ but the kill any Voth daily only triggered after I killed the Voth Mech on the capture point where you disable 5 consoles. What makes that even more annoying is I allowed all 5 consoles to respawn Voth, so I killed double the number of Voth.
Good lord your connection sucks. Not only rubber banding all over the show in Dyson BZ but the kill any Voth daily only triggered after I killed the Voth Mech on the capture point where you disable 5 consoles. What makes that even more annoying is I allowed all 5 consoles to respawn Voth, so I killed double the number of Voth.
Yeah, it's really bad right now and there aren't even many people on.
I did the Honor Event and then logged off, I won't even attempt to play anything when it's this bad.
Hell yeah that's the Dyson Battle Zone experience all right.
Also considering this thread is no longer stickie to the front page and allowed to just fall into obscurity without anyone posting I seriously doubt they are still collecting data from players. It's been 11 months since Kael started taking data and again I doubt we will see any action taken in fact I bet this time next year if the games still running the server performance will be exactly the same as now.
Someone's always posting in this thread because this is an ongoing issue.
before my post yesterday this thread was buried half way down page 2 of the forums meaning unless you knew of it's existence or searched for it the thread would have continued to be buried and hidden. If they were still looking into it they'd re-stickie it to the top of the front page.
Lets hope today's patch does finally address the lag/rubber banding and power misfire issues so this thread can fall into obscurity. Would make me happy to never have to complain about the servers again and they perform as well as they did for me between 2011-2016
A PATCH is not going to fix this issue.
The issue is not with the game, or with the server.
For the billionth time, the issue is with the security software running on the ISP's side to protect REAL WORLD priority concerns.
There is a problem with the game and server. While the security software is a big cause of lag and rubberbanding it is only half the problem. Myself and others have listed a number of lag areas that have absolutely nothing to do with the security software and are 100% the fault of Cryptic.
Comments
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Tracert actually looks good
1 <1 ms <1 ms <1 ms ttrouter [192.168.1.1]
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 9 ms 9 ms 9 ms ae54-ner002.csm.as13285.net [78.144.1.19]
4 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms ae54-scr101.loh.as13285.net [78.144.1.18]
5 13 ms 13 ms 13 ms akamai.prolexic.com [195.66.224.31]
6 12 ms 13 ms 12 ms po110.bs-b.sech-lon2.netarch.akamai.com [72.52.60.200]
7 12 ms 13 ms 13 ms a72-52-1-137.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [72.52.1.137]
8 14 ms 13 ms 13 ms ae121.access-a.sech-lon2.netarch.akamai.com [72.52.60.205]
9 82 ms 82 ms 82 ms 93.191.173.11
10 89 ms 88 ms 89 ms a209-200-171-102.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [209.200.171.102]
11 103 ms 92 ms 91 ms 198.49.243.237
12 88 ms 88 ms 88 ms patchserver.crypticstudios.com [208.95.184.200]
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Mood swings having to make a few lifestyle changes after hitting diabetes type 2 threshold and going sugar free.
You are really weirdly invested in defending Akamai and PWE.
And if this service is what Cryptic/PWE the contract with Akamia for them to provide, a game that's unplayable, then the whole legal department should be fired because someone haven't done their due diligence and made sure that the DDoS protection doesn't hamper game play regularly.
The particular way that the STO engine is coded probably makes the rubberbanding component of the lag a little more noticeable than other games, but the issue is not limited to STO or even just Cryptic games in general. And if the engine actually is more prone to rubberbanding when lag hits then that will take a lot of time and resources to fix.
For example ESO does not rubberband anywhere near as much but it has little glitches and pauses and other signs of it. In fact, I usually get better performance playing ESO's EU server instead of NA even though I am in the northeastern US and the ping to the EU server is a lot higher than the ping to the NA one. The exception is when EUs database lookups melt down which they tend to do more than the NA ones. I have taken to playing both servers in the lower population hours because of the irritating glitches the game gets during busier hours.
SWTOR always has a sort of muffled feel to it which hides some of the performance issues, though it does rubberband too at times. I don't play Elite Dangerous so I have no idea how that one reacts to the traffic shaping and throttling.
Also, the fact that STOs problems got worse in 2016 probably has something to do with going to better graphics, higher polycounts, and lighting 2.0 around that time since it increases packet traffic, on top of the loss of net neutrality shortly thereafter.
Yep, needle a day with Toujeo insulin pen, ranks right up there with rolling down a hill full of poison ivy nekkid.
It does increase the packet traffic though since it means more detailed descriptions, like more material options, more layers for color and other properties which can be changed and therefor must be described, and anything else that has options in the game instead of being static.
Lighting 2.0 has multiple light sources, and from the looks of shadows on Risa they also have to use kludges to some extent, and those all have to be described even though they do not move anymore. It would probably be simpler if they used raytracing, but that would require a much more sophisticated engine and higher hardware requirements that could lose them a lot of players.
While I have not gone hacking the game files to be sure, I highly doubt that every single location in the game is fully mapped out in the installed files, the game is just not enough of a disk hog for that and most MMOs use dynamic map loads anyway, and all that loading traffic from every player switching maps would be hitting the same nodes close to the source. And again, more detailed maps with more detailed lighting means more packet traffic.
Also, even when using locally stored textures, the textures generally do not map to the surfaces in exactly the same way, they are rotated, sized, and distorted to produce various looks, and that has to be described in some way.
On top of the increased options, the move to the mass wave combats is another thing that adds to the problem, the more chaos that goes on the more descriptions it requires. I am not sure when the current combat style came in, but just going by what people say in chat and on the forum here it sounds like the game started with fewer but stronger opponents and gradually moved to the current avalanche of trash mobs with a few bosses thrown in.
In fact, the current trend towards more and more big AoE attacks also causes more traffic, because while the client can make guesses as to which other units are in the area and some of the effects it would have it still has to sync those guesses with the server whenever it can.
Packets are not that big, it is kind of like sending a highly detailed blow-by-blow of a sports event (including positions, actions, and everything else about every single player and object on the field) by SMS. So it takes a lot of packets just to keep it all in sync, plus there are all the actions you do with your mouse and keyboard that are sent back up quickly, even if they do not fill a packet completely.
Addition: Running PingPlotter, it turns out that at the moment
72.52.27.212 a72-52-27-212.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com has over 50% packet loss and everything following it is showing a heavy packet loss as well (which could actually be caused by this Akamai site too). And packet loss is one of the main causes of rubberbanding and other lag effects.
The way I see it is if someone users Power A then the same amount of data is sent only locally its rendered different if Lighting 2.0 on or off. All the lights and shadows are not being sent across the network. The only thing that is sent is the power activating then the game looks locally to see how to render it. Players don’t see the same shadows and lighting as none of that is sent via the packets.
EDIT:
The best example I can think off is last time I turned on and moved dynamic lights like the torch none of the other players could see it neither can I see there torch's. Rendered locally only.
And now the forum appears to be broken. Paste in my tracert and Preview/Save Draft/Post Comment disappear
The kludge for getting the posting buttons back is to hit tab several times.
Yeah, it's really bad right now and there aren't even many people on.
I did the Honor Event and then logged off, I won't even attempt to play anything when it's this bad.
Completely ridiculous.
Hell yeah that's the Dyson Battle Zone experience all right.
Also considering this thread is no longer stickie to the front page and allowed to just fall into obscurity without anyone posting I seriously doubt they are still collecting data from players. It's been 11 months since Kael started taking data and again I doubt we will see any action taken in fact I bet this time next year if the games still running the server performance will be exactly the same as now.
before my post yesterday this thread was buried half way down page 2 of the forums meaning unless you knew of it's existence or searched for it the thread would have continued to be buried and hidden. If they were still looking into it they'd re-stickie it to the top of the front page.