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New Support Carrier Bundle - Discussion

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  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Just done my first batch of testing

    Testing done against 2 Orion Covettes on Elite. Please note this limits the effectiveness of SAD and will be why my DPS numbers are lower than those that tested against larger groups of NPS. I choose two ship as I wanted fast easy repeatable results that are consistent. Wing commander, Holo Decoys, Scramble Fighters +Flight Deck Recharge doffs, max Aux needed for hanger speed, traits SAD/CA + Dominion Coordination.

    Total in both hangers combined for that run. Top is the single hanger pet that did the most DPS. Average is an estimated average from the group of pets excluding the ones that died.

    Total CA 9.1k
    Rare Stalker Squad: Top 844, Average 730
    Rare Stalker: Top 933, Average 450

    Total SAD 21k
    Rare Stalker Squad: Top 2,165, Average 1,900
    Rare Stalker: Top 1574, Average 1,568

    Total CA 12.4k
    Adv Stalker Squad: Top 1044.8, Average 834
    Adv Stalker: Top 1044.0, Average 871

    Total SAD 24.5k
    Adv Stalker Squad: Top 1879, Average 1776
    Adv Stalker: Top 2113, Average 1578

    Total CA 11.3k
    Jem'Hadar Fighter Squad: Top 991, Average 898
    Adv Jem'Hadar Fighter Squad: Top 925, Average 890

    Total SAD 21.5k
    Jem'Hadar Fighter Squad: Top 1083, Average 953
    Adv Jem'Hadar Fighter Squad: Top 1323, Average 988

    Total CA 20.1k
    Adv Jem'Hadar Fighter: Top 1593, Average 1489
    Elite Jem'Hadar Fighter: top 1967, Average 1860

    Total SAD 23.8k
    Adv Jem'Hadar Fighter: Top 2002, Average 1814
    Elite Jem'Hadar Fighter: Top 1975, Average 1856

    Total CA 16.6k
    Scorpion Fighter Squad: Top 1459, Average 1379
    Elite Scorpion Fighter Squad: Top 1015, Average 965

    Total SAD 35k
    Scorpion Fighter Squad: Top 3528, average 3076
    Elite Scorpion Fighter Squad: Top 3334, average 3013

    Total CA 12.1k
    Jem'Hadar Support : Top 3125
    Adv Jem'Hadar Support top 3191

    Total SAD 10k
    Jem'Hadar Support: Top 2829, average 2624
    Adv Jem'Hadar Support top 2614, average 2496

    Lost Souls 37,882
    Normal: Top 4884 Average 4647
    Elite: Top 3421 Average 2401

    Pretty similar to everyone else’s testing. Squads are cosmetic. They look very nice but perform average at best. Overall very disappointed as I was hoping Squads would fix full Carriers and make them decent again. This confirms what we already know take SAD over CA even against 1 or 2 targets. Also upgrading to Advance or Elite hanger pets often makes pets worse. Which is something the devs really need to fix considering the cost to get them. We wouldn't except losing damage by upgrading core weapons so why is it ok to upgrade hanger pets and lose damage?

    EDIT: I will double check the Scorpion numbers later and run Squad against singles. EDIT: Run2: Pretty much same Squad top Elite 3528, Elite Single 3334 total this time 32.5k DPS
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I'm wondering if the Squadron pets are not bound to the parent ship too. With my Miracle Worker (DSC) Constitution in mind it would be interesting to lauch a squadron of Stalker fighters alongside the Tactical Flyers. But I don't think said ship is considered a 'full carrier'.

    I'm thinking that stipulation only applies to the frigates. I didn't see any mention of limitations on the squadrons.
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    It really depends if the Squadrons are like the DCS Squadrons then I fully agree with you and this is a massive let down and a terrible design for new Carriers. But if they took DCS Squadron idea and actually made the Squadrons good and better then normal hanger pets then this could at last make full carriers interesting again. It all comes down to how good or badly they implanted those Squadrons. After the DCS I am worryed but I have to give the devs the benefit of the doubt.

    As I understand it Scorpion squadrons are not the same as Scorpion Hanger pets from the rom rep. The big question is this just a graphical thing that looks nice but is complete fluff in the way it functions like the DCS Squadrons or are they an improvement?

    The DSC squadrons really only have beam arrays. These birds look like they have cannon type weapons as well as some form of torpedo launcher, on top of gaining other things as you go up the tiers.
    The Stalkers, for example, according to the Dev Blog come with the "Thoron Torpedo Launcher", which I assume is the Thoron Generator console off the playable version. The higher tiers gain an Antiproton Sweep and Cloaks. The To'duJ fighters upgrade from Photon to Quantum Torps, and gain Rapid Fire, Scorpions gain High Yield for their Plasma Torps, and the JH fighters seem the least impressive as they just gain Directed Energy Modulation and Rapid Fire.
    lianthelia wrote: »
    And I hate that Carriers are completely inferior to Dreadnought Carriers and Flight Deck Carriers...no one says they need to be 100% but standard Carriers fall behind immensely compared to the other two

    Less weapons...less agility...less firepower or synergy...look I know you worship the Devs like they're gods, doesn't mean you or they're right.

    Here's the thing. Even in real life, Carriers are not front line warships. They are designed to hang back and let fighters do the work. Its in the name of the ship type. The purpose is to CARRY strike craft into battle. In RL as well as Sci-Fi, there are very few cases of a Carrier launching strike craft then charging in to join the battle. In Wing Commander, the Carriers do have guns, but they never go charging in. They hang back, and only use their guns when directly threatened by enemy strike craft or capital ships that get past the fighters and any allied capital ships with them. The only other carrier I can think of that fight more directly was the Venator class Star Destroyer from the Clone Wars in Star Wars, but that was mostly because they seemed to use her as not just a carrier, but a front line warship. Something the ship wasn't exactly designed for.

    In STO, they seem to follow that while allowing for more direct support rather than just being totally reliant on them. You're basically comparing apples to oranges. Different playstyles. FDCs and Dreads cater more towards the Cruiser playstyle, while Carriers are more actual Carrier playestyle with more of a science lean. Its less about the actual guns and more about what you can do to support your squadrons. The only thing they are inferior in is straight up firepower. You can counter the turn rate by mounting beam arrays easily and broadsiding, and by equipping gear that augments turn rate.
    As someone who has a Sarco, I know about turn rate woes. That thing's a brick. But she's a brick that can be nasty in a broadside. And the Command seating works pretty well for her. Suppression Barrage certainly helps slow down the enemy for my Elite Slavers to have fun.
    ...
    I would have liked to see secondary deflectors on science carriers, but if the swarm fighters are unique to full carriers that is at least a little ways towards balance with the two-bay cruisers. ...

    I only bought the Rommie carrier and the scorpion Squadrons can be used on any hangar ship, and the Ghemor FDC is apparently a "full carrier" so can also use the new Malem frigates as well.
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So, the scorpion squads seems to do decently...humm wonder if the fire arc issue is less of an issue on squads so the cannons ends up being more useful.

    Unless you use the Superior Area Denial trait then at the Elite level, the Scorpion Squadron will do less damage than a normal non-squadron Scorpion pet because while they are identical in most ways, the squadron's pulse cannon does not properly get replaced with a turret after Advanced.

    Without that inconsistency they should perform roughly the same, which is stupid since one is a single fighter, the other is six fighters.
  • gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,102 Arc User
    [
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    So, the scorpion squads seems to do decently...humm wonder if the fire arc issue is less of an issue on squads so the cannons ends up being more useful.

    Unless you use the Superior Area Denial trait then at the Elite level, the Scorpion Squadron will do less damage than a normal non-squadron Scorpion pet because while they are identical in most ways, the squadron's pulse cannon does not properly get replaced with a turret after Advanced.

    Without that inconsistency they should perform roughly the same, which is stupid since one is a single fighter, the other is six fighters.

    Yeah, way to be dissapointed on those.. i'll keep using the frigates
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
  • alcyoneserenealcyoneserene Member Posts: 2,408 Arc User
    With the release of the T6/F support carriers, I wanted to examine a list of available pets, by no means exhaustive, in order to try to understand which pets are better, which are acceptable (space barbie), and which are really undesirable.

    Two categories are listed: Ship-Universal & Ship-Specific. Not every pet is listed.

    Higher in the list is -mostly in theory- better, based on a number of factors: DPS tests by other members, observed effectiveness, class of weapons, number of weapons and pets, interaction with traits, presence of a torpedo, effective bridge officer abilities, other effective abilities or unique skills, durability.


    I do own a lot of different pets for all factions, captain classes, ship types, pet-influencing traits and consoles, but have never really payed particular attention to how effective they really are or how they compare, including what they add to specific builds and scenarios.

    Why? I never bothered with carriers outside of the space barbie aspect since despite the buffs and attempted fixes, to me they are still broken: Pets despawn on instance changes or portal entries, pets still don't respond to carrier commands, can't keep fully ranked & deployed pets docked on map changes. They still fall short of all other ship types because the pets are like weapons that can't be upgraded or influenced directly or indirectly by almost every other in-game power but instead a limited, mostly-character bound set that overall sacrifices the main ship for the purpose of its pets.

    So, this is just an -early attempt- to sift through some stats (many of which are unreliable; see Jem'Hadar Fighters), with the hope owners of different pets can chime in and explain whether, to date, a certain pet works or doesn't work for their build and playstyle under specific circumstances, DPS tests, and so on.

    Special thanks for DPS tests to: pottsey5g


    Ship-Universal
    Elite Jem'Hadar Fighters (unlocked with jem dread carrier or jem heavy strike wing escort, usable on any ship)
    - turret [likely still a pulse cannon based on parse], beam, dual cannon; DEM3, CRF1, 6/hangar = 18 weapons/36 weapons for 2 hangar bays

    Advanced Jem'Hadar Fighters (any faction and ship)
    - pulse cannon, beam array, dual cannon; DEM2, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Scorpion Fighter Squadron (Any faction and ship)
    - turret [likely still a pulse cannon based on parse], dual cannons, plasma torp; HY1, 6 'units'/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Scorpion Fighters (any faction and ship)
    - pulse cannon, dual cannons, plasma torp; HY1, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite To'Duj Fighters (KDF/aligned only)
    - disruptor pulse cannon, dual cannons, quantum torp; CRF1, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Aeon Timeships (unlock with paradox temp dread, any hangar)
    - 2x beam, chroniton torp; THY2, subatomic disruptor, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Obelisk Swarmers (any faction and ship; found at fleet spire)
    - 2x beam array, transphasic torpedo; BO3, increased accuracy beam every 2s, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Advanced Peregrine Fighters (fed ships only)
    - pulse cannon, dual cannon, quantum torpedo launcher, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    [inferior to advanced] Elite Peregrine Fighters (fed ships only)
    - turret, dual cannons, quantum torps; CRF1, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite S'kul Fighters (KDF/aligned, unlocked with Kar'Fi)
    - pulse cannons, dual cannons; ramming speed 3, 6/hangar = 12/24 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Orion Interceptors (KDF/aligned, works on kdf-aligned rom warbirds, unlocked with Orion Dacoit Flight Deck Carrier 75K Dil/char, previously zen)
    - disruptor pulse cannon, chroniton torps; tractor beam 1, hyper impulse engines, weapon/power drain beam, 6/hangar = 12/24 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Orion Slavers (KDF/aligned)
    - disruptor beam, photon torp, quantum mines; capture crew [obsolete mechanic], steal EC/Commo/contraband/prisoner, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Class F Shuttles (Atlas Prototype Dreadnought Cruiser unlock, fed ships only)
    - beam, photon torpedo; EP2shields3, BO2, 6/hangar = 12/24 weapons per hangar/2x



    Ship-Specific
    Elite Romulan Drone Ships (Scimitar variants/unlock, T'Laru, Warbird support carrier)
    - 3x beam, plasma torpedo; change weapon types & appearance to enemies, BO3, BFAW3, EP2S3, 2/hangar = 8/16 weapons per hangar/2x

    Rare Lost Souls of Gre'thor (unlocked Fek'Ihri Fe'rang, Fek'Ihri carriers only)
    - Claw Swipe, Flame Breath; Ferocious Charge; high damage due to no defenses against such damage type but also no boosts from Cannon/THY/Beam boosters?, 6/hangar = 12/24 weapons per hangar

    Elite Jem'Hadar Attack Ship (JHAS T5 (UR phoenix token) or T6 promos)
    - dual cannon, beam, turret, quantum torpedoes; CRF3, Antiproton sweep, BO2, ramming when below 50%, 2/hangar, 8/16 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Jem'Hadar Vanguard Gunboats (unlock by vanguard carrier, vanguard dreadnought cruiser; usable on those, heavy strike wing escort, jem'hadar dreanought carriers)
    - dual beam bank, 2x beams, quantum torpedo; BFAW3, APlambda3, Evasive burst 3, ramming when below 50% health, 2/hangar = 8/16 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Stalker Fighters (Atrox only)
    - pulse cannon, dual cannons; 'MES', battle cloak, antiproton sweep, jam target sensors, 6/hangar = 12 weapons/24 weapons for 2 hangar bays

    Elite Craeul Frigates (Valkis only)
    - 2x beams, dual beam bank, plasma torpedo; BFAW2, THY2, channeled deconstruction, EP2W3, 2/hangar = 8/16 weapons per hangar/2x

    Ultra Rare Qaw'Dun Birds-of-Prey (KDF, Vo'quv only)
    - disruptor dual cannon, turret, quantum torp; CRF3, THY3, Battle Cloak, 2/hangar = 6/12 weapons per hangar/2x

    [inferior to basic types] Elite Lost Souls of Gre'thor (unlocked Fek'Ihri Fe'rang, Fek'Ihri carriers only)
    - Claw Swipe, Flame Breath; Superior Psionic Shockwave, Ferocious Charge; high damage due to no defenses against such damage type but also no boosts from Cannon/THY/Beam boosters?, 6/hangar = 12/24 weapons per hangar

    Elite Baltim Raider (Baltim raider ship unlocks it; usable on herald quas flight deck cruiser or Vonph)
    - 3x beams, transphasic torp; BFAW2, THY2, raider flanking, ambush gateway, 2/hangar = 8/16 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Krenim Heavy Raiders (Annorax only)
    - coalition disruptor 2x beam, dual beam bank, chroniton torpedo; surgical strikes 2, THY3, Viral matrix 2, aceton beam 2, raider flanking, 2/hangar = 8/16 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Kelvin Timeline Assault Drones (intel dread only)
    - beam & photon torp; BFAW1, TS1, Ram, 6/hangar = 12 weapons/24 weapons for 2 hangar bays

    Elite Callisto Light Escorts (Jupiter only)
    - quad phaser, dual heavy phaser, turret, 2x quantum torpedo: TS3, CSV3, lock trajectory 1, 2/hangar = 10/20 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Fer'Jai Frigates (Kar'Fi & Fek'Ihri Fe'rang only)
    - dual cannons, turret, chroniton torp, tricobalt torp, tricobalt mine; CRF3, THY3, aceton beam, enhanced impulse engines, 2/hangar = 10/20 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Mir Fighters (herald quas flight deck cruiser or Vonph)
    - 2x beam, herald transphasic torpedo; impact (non-self-dmg ram), BO2, 6/hangar = 18/32 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Kelvin Timeline Scorpion Fighters (T'Laru only) *currently incorrectly labelled as Advanced Kelvin Timeline Scorpion Fighters; correct rarity and abilities*
    - beam, dual beam bank, plasma torpedo; reroute reserves to weapons 1, BFAW1, 6/hangar = 18/36 weapons per hangar/2x

    Elite Tactical Flyer Squadrons (constitution miracle worker only)
    - 6x omni but likely 2x omni each like every other fighter; EP2W3, DEM2, 6?/hangar = 12/24 weapons per hangar/2x
    Y945Yzx.jpg
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  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,461 Arc User
    The big issue I've always had with hangar pets is their insane fragility. They are always blowing up, and losing an entire hangar before the relaunch CD is up is entirely possible, even likely. I tend to prefer the frigates or similar pets because of that, and there are very few that aren't locked to a ship.

    Danubes for Feds, and I think Yukawas can go on any ship, which makes them the best choices in my opinion.

    Theoretically higher DPS from a fighter type pet just doesn't matter if they are all dead. I had been hoping the new squadrons would be more durable, but they definitely aren't.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    The big issue I've always had with hangar pets is their insane fragility. They are always blowing up, and losing an entire hangar before the relaunch CD is up is entirely possible, even likely. I tend to prefer the frigates or similar pets because of that, and there are very few that aren't locked to a ship.

    Danubes for Feds, and I think Yukawas can go on any ship, which makes them the best choices in my opinion.

    Theoretically higher DPS from a fighter type pet just doesn't matter if they are all dead. I had been hoping the new squadrons would be more durable, but they definitely aren't.
    I think the Danubes are what we class as heavy fighters? Whatever we call them half way between Fighters and Frigates seems to be the sweat spot.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    .....
    So, this is just an -early attempt- to sift through some stats (many of which are unreliable; see Jem'Hadar Fighters), with the hope owners of different pets can chime in and explain whether, to date, a certain pet works or doesn't work for their build and playstyle under specific circumstances, DPS tests, and so on.....
    They are often overlooked as the Xindi Carrier is kind of rare but the 3 types of Xindi pets all perform really well and there is a 3 part set that boosts the energy weapon fire rates for Xindi pets only. Pets and consoles locked into Xindi ships.

    In a no real order I would rate Xindi pets all 3 types, Lost Souls, Jem’Hadar both types, Drone Ships, Scorpions both types as the high end pets in game.

    If you haven’t seen it take a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/stobuilds/comments/gc6f2d/hanger_pet_testing_round_2/


  • darknovasc01darknovasc01 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    Have JH Gunboats and the Tactical Flyers dropped down the ratings somewhat? Not speaking from personal knowledge, just that I used to hear them mentioned in chat discussions a lot.
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    Have JH Gunboats and the Tactical Flyers dropped down the ratings somewhat? Not speaking from personal knowledge, just that I used to hear them mentioned in chat discussions a lot.

    Tactical Flyers do great damage, but they are primarily loved when used in conjunction with Superior Area Denial as they each have no less than 9 beam banks (6 fore, 3 aft) each. Unlike most cannon pets they have enemies in the arc of 3 or more weapons at all times, and with FAW from SAD, ain't nobody not getting shot by every single one of them.

    Now, the thing that has left them by the wayside a bit is the interaction between pulse cannons (mini turrets) and SAD, which results in pets with pulse cannons out-performing the flyers when using SAD. This is almost certainly why the JH Gunboats have lost some popularity - they are also beam based.

    If Cryptic decides to "fix" the pulse cannon interaction with SAD then beam pets will once again be excellent performers, especially with SAD. The pulse cannon pets aren't performing *excessively* in terms of DPS for a ship build, but they are performing better than one would expect based on the trait interaction.

    For now, Elite Jem'Hadar Fighter Squadrons have replaced Elite Tactical Flyers on my carrier.
  • darknovasc01darknovasc01 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    Thank you, that does make more sense now - I'd picked up that the flyers actually used beams, with some visual trickery thrown in, but knowing a little more about how SAD effects pulse cannons now does help in understanding the results.

    For those without access to SAD then, would the Elite flyers or gunboats (and single Scorpions for that matter) still be among the optimum choices depending on intent, or do you feel that the squadrons are close enough generally that they represent a better long term investment in the hopes that Cryptic do indeed 'fix' or enhance them?

    Thank you, BTW, for answering all these questions, I appreciate it.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Total SAD 34.6k run 1 (Adv drones best)
    Drone Ship: Top 8672, Average 8218
    Adv Drone Ship Top 8834, Average 8767

    Total SAD 26.6k run 2 (Basic best)
    Drone Ship Top 7016, Average 6665
    Adv Drone Ship Top 6569, Average 6436

    Total SAD 28.1k run 3 (Basic best)
    Drone Ship Top 7632, Average 7171
    Adv Drone Ship top 6964avg 6907

    Total CA 30.9k run1 (Adv best)
    Drone Ship Top 8072, Average 7690.5
    Adv Drone Ship top 7910, Average 7775.5

    Total CA 27.7k Run2 (Basic best)
    Drone Ship Top 8326, Average 7630
    Adv Drone Ship top 6586, Average 6232.5

    Total CA 14.7k
    Peregrine Top 1331, Average 1231
    Adv Peregrine top 1263avg 968

    Total SAD 19.8k
    Peregrine Top 1738, Average 1275
    Adv Peregrine top 1979, Average 1380

    Total SAD 17.1k
    Elite Peregrine Top 1738, Average 1969
    Rare Xindi Primate top 1605avg 1158

    Total SAD 26.2k (16422 drones, 9678 Elite Squad)
    Elite Jem'Hadar Squad Top 2086, Average 1734
    Elite Drone Ship Top, 8618, Average 8211

    Total SAD 24.7k (15212 drones, 9488 Elite Squad)
    Elite Scorpion Squad Top 2793, Average 2075
    Elite Drone Ship Top, 7646, Average 7607


    Taking from different runs today
    Elite Scorpion Squad Top 2793, Average 2075, total 9488
    Elite Jem'Hadar Squad Top 2086, Average 1734, total 9678

    Little confused by this as I had multiple runs yesterday with Elite Scorpions getting well over 3k on average and 15k total per bay.

    Conclusions. From a cosmetic point of view I find the Scorpion Squad look best both from the way the Squad looks in space and the way the weapons look under SAD. I also noticed under the last run that the Heavy Plasma DPS is not being shown under pet DPS but under my own ships DPS. Which means all Scorpion numbers including todays batch are missing around about 950dps per hanger bay. In theory those Plasma torp into a grav well should boost DPS a lot? I am not testing that.

    Drone Ships and Lost Souls seem to be the top pet in game out of my testing and because they are heavy fighters Drone Ships don’t die anywhere near as much as fighters.


    EDIT:
    I just did a quick messy ISA run for an Endeavor and just got 41k pet damage. Just under 25k DPS with Scorps and just over 25k for Drone ships. The Top drone ship was 11,798 dps!

    There was either a flaw in my testing this morning or a blip. Most of the time Scorps are averaging out at around about 2,600 DPS each. No idea why that run this morning was 2000 dps each.
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    Thank you, that does make more sense now - I'd picked up that the flyers actually used beams, with some visual trickery thrown in, but knowing a little more about how SAD effects pulse cannons now does help in understanding the results.

    Discovery era weapons look like cannons even when they're beams in order to match the series. The House Mo'kai Raiders also use beams that you'd think were cannons from the visuals.
    For those without access to SAD then, would the Elite flyers or gunboats (and single Scorpions for that matter) still be among the optimum choices depending on intent, or do you feel that the squadrons are close enough generally that they represent a better long term investment in the hopes that Cryptic do indeed 'fix' or enhance them?

    If you don't have SAD then the squadrons are mostly a poor investment in their current state, except for the Jem'Hadar Squadrons which have an extra 360 degree arc weapon. The pulse cannons are, without SAD, inferior weapons to turrets, and in theory elite level pets are supposed to trade in their pulse cannons for turrets.

    Now, assuming they fix the weapon loadouts on the squadrons they'll be no better than the original non-squadron versions of the pets, being nothing more than cosmetic variations that are harder on the graphics engine for you and everyone else in a given TFO.

    I'm honestly not sure how well the Tactical Flyer Squadrons perform without SAD relative to other pets without it... maybe I'll run a test or two.

    I do think it's important for people who are interested in test results to understand that the results really are only as good as the way the tests are run. Some people are testing them on an ISA run, some on like 2 ships... some on a single multi-ship battle, etc. I personally feel that group content is a poor test as the performance of other players will greatly affect your numbers, as will your ability to efficiently move between battles. I tend to do tests on solo content and use a single multi-ship battle to see what a pet's output is like when the fight is constant and unaffected by travel or the dps of other players. I can't say that's objectively better than other methods, but it allows for greater consistency while still simulating typical battles.
    pottsey5g wrote:
    Drone Ships and Lost Souls seem to be the top pet in game out of my testing and because they are heavy fighters Drone Ships don’t die anywhere near as much as fighters.

    Drone Ships are frigates, not heavy fighters - they are 2 to a hangar. Heavy fighters are 4 to a hangar. Frigates have always had good survivability, though fighters are much improved in the past year or two.
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    Ok, so I ran a quick test with four types of fighters. I'm mostly focused on a) fighters and b) those that can be used on any ship, not pets with restrictions. Each run was done using a 2-hangar ship with no weapons equipped, the Swarmer Matrix Console, and Voth Carrier Synergies to ensure the pets were alive during the entire fight to try to give them consistent output. The numbers themselves shouldn't be taken as universal gospel, only being used to compare relative performance.

    The fight I used was the "Our Final Hour" battle from the episode "Midnight" which involves Iconian ships of varying classes in a single, uninterrupted battle.


    Without SAD

    E. Tactical Flyers Low: 781.3 High: 981.7 Total DPS: 10,445.4
    E. Jem'Hadar Squad Low: 351.9 High: 1025.4 Total DPS: 9,801.7
    E. Obelisk Swarmers Low: 1389 High: 1736.3 Total DPS: 19,085.8
    E. Scorpions Low: 442.8 High: 1293.1 Total DPS: 9,562.7

    With SAD

    E. Tactical Flyers Low: 1001.0 High: 2369.0 Total DPS: 20,464.1
    E. Jem'Hadar Squad Low: 1707.8 High: 4268.5 Total DPS: 39,337.8
    E. Obelisk Swarmers Low: 1926.3 High: 2360.5 Total DPS: 25,634.3
    E. Scorpions Low: 743.8 High: 2038.0 Total DPS: 15,213.3


    So, if you don't have Superior Area Denial the Obelisk Swarmers seem to dish out some impressive damage. They are, however, notoriously fragile which means that the output may be inconsistent if you're not sporting some pet survival traits like Holographic Decoys or Voth Carrier Synergies.

    With the current layout and pulse cannon quirkiness, though, if you have Superior Area Denial, then the Jem'Hadar Squadrons are really performing well in large-scale battles, and keep their high damage against single targets.

    Where Scorpions shine is in content where you frequently move between spread-out targets, as it allows them time to line up cannon attacks, and their High Yield torpedoes tend not to be wasted on dead targets, moving on to the next victim. Once they arrive at a battle, though, their DPS is likely to drop as their HY torpedoes are not constant, and the only weapon they can consistently keep on an enemy is their plasma turret.
  • darknovasc01darknovasc01 Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    Thank you for your additional testing. Just to clarify, although you didn't explicitly state it, I assume the testing was performed using the Elite version of each pet?

    It is unfortunate that some of the most beneficial traits to pet damage and or endurance command such a high premium, either by themselves or by virtue of being tied to a lockbox or promo ship. I could perhaps purchase a single copy of all the traits that have been discussed without totally draining my EC reserves, but just cannot justify it for the beneft of a single character (of course that is just a personal choice). At least the Swarmer Matrix console is account bound, and I do have access to that on all my accounts.

    The SAD boost to the Tactical Flyers was not unexpected, but the effect on the JH Squadron with their current quirks is eye-opening to say the least.

    The Obelisk Swarmer results do reinforce what I had already heard of them, and even with the fragility and lacking SAD I will definitely look at picking them up.

    I have the single Elite Scorpions on several characters and my experience matches what you describe, but they do remain among my favourites.

    As far as the new carriers and pets are concerned, after everything that has been discussed in this thread, I think I am glad I resisted the temptation to splash out on the bundle for now. I actually admire the aesthetics of all four new ships, and the new frigates show merit, but the ships' profiles still feel underwhelming and the squadron mechanics need some consistency and a boost to make them more than just visually appealing (and not just a heavier burden on the poor server hamsters).

    Hopefully the Devs' carrier and pet review I saw mentioned somewhere will offer some tangible improvements.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 3,638 Arc User
    Thank you for your additional testing. Just to clarify, although you didn't explicitly state it, I assume the testing was performed using the Elite version of each pet?

    It is unfortunate that some of the most beneficial traits to pet damage and or endurance command such a high premium, either by themselves or by virtue of being tied to a lockbox or promo ship. I could perhaps purchase a single copy of all the traits that have been discussed without totally draining my EC reserves, but just cannot justify it for the beneft of a single character (of course that is just a personal choice). At least the Swarmer Matrix console is account bound, and I do have access to that on all my accounts.

    The SAD boost to the Tactical Flyers was not unexpected, but the effect on the JH Squadron with their current quirks is eye-opening to say the least.

    The Obelisk Swarmer results do reinforce what I had already heard of them, and even with the fragility and lacking SAD I will definitely look at picking them up.

    I have the single Elite Scorpions on several characters and my experience matches what you describe, but they do remain among my favourites.

    As far as the new carriers and pets are concerned, after everything that has been discussed in this thread, I think I am glad I resisted the temptation to splash out on the bundle for now. I actually admire the aesthetics of all four new ships, and the new frigates show merit, but the ships' profiles still feel underwhelming and the squadron mechanics need some consistency and a boost to make them more than just visually appealing (and not just a heavier burden on the poor server hamsters).

    Hopefully the Devs' carrier and pet review I saw mentioned somewhere will offer some tangible improvements.
    If I wrote just the pet name without and reference to its grade then it’s the basic rare version you buy for EC at the store. For example, when I said below and didn’t list the Peregrine version then that is the rare version and when I say Adv version I mean Very Rare with Elite being Ultra Rare.

    Peregrine Top 1738, Average 1275
    Adv Peregrine top 1979, Average 138

    Thanks voodoopokey for the correction on heavy fighters and Frigates.

  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    Thank you for your additional testing. Just to clarify, although you didn't explicitly state it, I assume the testing was performed using the Elite version of each pet?

    That's what the E. stood for, yes... all were elite level pets.
    The SAD boost to the Tactical Flyers was not unexpected, but the effect on the JH Squadron with their current quirks is eye-opening to say the least.

    That's the pulse cannon interaction with SAD.. you'll see impressive numbers with any pulse cannon hangar pet if used in conjuction with SAD.. to the point that you'll often get better damage with basic or advanced versions than the elite version, as elite versions usually trade in the pulse cannon for a turret.

    I don't think pets do too much damage with the interaction, frankly - its still much lower than other types of builds - but having lower cost and rarity versions of pets do more than higher ones is silly. They should likely fix the bugs and the loadouts, and then like... double the damage of all pets. I suspect a heavy cannon build or science build will still outperform a pet build easily at that point.

    I also think, along with many of the posters, that squadron pets should possess multiples of the weapons, not simply be cosmetic, but be usable only on 2-hangar ships (actual carriers). I'd like to see carriers really perform well with pets as they have been, for over a decade now, far outclassed by normal weapon builds and science builds.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    What's the Loadout problem with Pets?
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  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 15,367 Arc User
    I will say, the KDF one does lend itself well to a bit of Kitbashing:
    ujTjjSe.jpg
  • voodoopokeyvoodoopokey Member Posts: 244 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    What's the Loadout problem with Pets?

    I'm not talking about the starship "loadouts" system, I'm referring to the fact that their weapons stated in their details/tooltips do not match the actual weapons on the ships.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    The big issue I've always had with hangar pets is their insane fragility. They are always blowing up, and losing an entire hangar before the relaunch CD is up is entirely possible, even likely. I tend to prefer the frigates or similar pets because of that, and there are very few that aren't locked to a ship.

    Danubes for Feds, and I think Yukawas can go on any ship, which makes them the best choices in my opinion.

    Theoretically higher DPS from a fighter type pet just doesn't matter if they are all dead. I had been hoping the new squadrons would be more durable, but they definitely aren't.
    I think the Danubes are what we class as heavy fighters? Whatever we call them half way between Fighters and Frigates seems to be the sweat spot.
    Yeah frigates are 2 per hangar bay, regular fighters are 6 per bay, then there's stuff that's 4 per bay. I use Yellowstones Fed-side and those are called "heavy shuttles".
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,650 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I will say, the KDF one does lend itself well to a bit of Kitbashing:
    ujTjjSe.jpg

    That's a Transformer pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
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  • psiameesepsiameese Member Posts: 1,540 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I will say, the KDF one does lend itself well to a bit of Kitbashing:
    ujTjjSe.jpg
    Mine looks just like that! I love it.
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  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 642 Arc User
    psiameese wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I will say, the KDF one does lend itself well to a bit of Kitbashing:
    ujTjjSe.jpg
    Mine looks just like that! I love it.

    I use the same head and hull but the gull wings. Gives her a Bird of Prey look which is really cool
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    reyan01 wrote: »
    I will say, the KDF one does lend itself well to a bit of Kitbashing:
    ujTjjSe.jpg

    That's a Transformer pig-2.gif​​
    Hmm yes... more specifically... Starscream.
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    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
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