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Why can't we ever get a summer event dreadnought

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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,414 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Icky weapon layout? Typically it feels more like Cruiser with single hanger slot and normal cruiser weapons layout of 4/4.

    And I think in Sci-Fi the term Dreadnought is usually applied to something bigger than a Battleship. I know the term originally came from the ship HMS Dreadnought, but beyond that, it tends to refer to classes bigger than Battleships.

    Was more referring to the 5/3 or even better 3/5 types. IIRC Dreads are precursors to Battleships; old cruisers retrofitted with more plating and modern (well... 1930s modern) guns. But it has the word dread in it, so it sounds cool and it kinda plays into the retrofitted part as in its a cruiser; just different (most obvious Galaxy -> Galaxy Dread). While a Battleship on the other hand is a distinct next bigger class in the same tech and we don't really have that (Universe class is meta; otherwise yeah, it kinda fits the scaling; but I guess in its time its as much a cruiser as the Galaxy and Constitution are in theirs).

    .... actually calling the STO dreads dreads makes much more sense than I thought; antiquated as it is.

    Actually Dreadnoughts were battleships and were always designed to be so, HMS Dreadnought (where the ship type takes its name from) changed the way battleships were designed practically overnight in 1906 (yes almost a decade before WWI and well before 1930s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Dreadnought_(1906) .

    In fact the Dreadnought was named such because she had nothing to fear from the opposition. the Dreadnought had 10(5*2) 12 inch guns, while the previous Royal Navy battleship-class the Lord Nelson-class had only 4 (2*2) 12 inch, the US Virginia-class Pre-Dreadnought battleships are similar amount of heavy guns as the Lord Nelson class, as did the French, Italian and German pre-Dreadnought battleships, so the Dreadnought had a firepower advantage at range and the speed to stay at range as well, thus forcing others to match. The "golden age" for Dreadnoughts was the First World War.

    By the 1930s most nations were well into the "post-Dreadnought" era. the German Bismark class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bismarck-class_battleship), the Japanese Yamato-class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato-class_battleship) and the US Iowa-class (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa-class_battleship) being either 1930s or early 1940s designs and as you can see if you at the guns they resemble the Dreadnought not the pre-Dreadnoughts. (notice how the secondary battery of the Lord Nelson class is 9.2 inch guns, while on all Dreadnoughts and post Dreadnoughts it's only around 5-6 inch)

    Oh and first modern (though obviously pre-dreadnought) battleships were designed in the late 19th century. The USS Texas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Texas_(1892) ) being an example of a pre-dreadnought battleship from the 19th century, also the Royal Navy started using the classification "battleship" around the same time, so the term battleship predates the Dreadnought by over a decade instead of it being the otherway around.

    Nice compilation :)

    So one could say by WW2 they split up the old Battleship classifications into Cruisers/Battlecruisers and what a few years before would had been called Dreadnought was now the Battleship?

    Now I want a Space Battleship Bismarck for next summer :P (Yamato might be problematic I guess)

    Well not really as cruisers were a pre-WWII classification as well, in fact at Jutland (to date only major battle between modern battleships) both the British Grand Fleet and the German High Seas Fleet were split between the battleships and battlecruiser parts. Really the only ship classification to really come from WWII is the aircraft carrier (technically even that predates the war but WWII was essentially the first major conflict for carriers).

    Battlecruisers were the "budget" version of a battleship (similar guns to full battleship but less armor), dreadnought ship was never a classification so much as it was a type of battleship, so pre-dreadnought = "ships designed before the launch of HMS Dreadnought", dreadnought ="ships based on the design of HMS Dreadnougt", post-dreadnought = "ships that took the lessons of WWI into account and improved upon the design of dreadnoughts".

    EDIT:If Cryptic wanted to historically accurate with their ship designs, Dreadnoughts should have little to no damage fall off (to simulate the fact that Dreadnoughts had superior long range firepower compared to pre-Dreadnoughts) that or something like 15 km targeting range.

    That opens up a totally different can of worms which ends in stuff like why don't the Universe and its ROM/KDF sisters don't outgun each and everything in all departments instead of being more or less on equal footing with ships that look like hanger pets next to it.
    Yeah I know that would way too OP to ever be included. It's mostly to demonstrate just how OP HMS Dreadnought was when she was launched and why she triggered an arms race that only ended in 1945.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    Pocket Battleships

    Surigao Straits, Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, Pursuit of the Bismarck,
    Mers-el-Kebir, Battle of the North Cape, Battle of Calabria.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,414 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Pocket Battleships

    Surigao Straits, Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal, Pursuit of the Bismarck,
    Mers-el-Kebir, Battle of the North Cape, Battle of Calabria.

    Isn't "pocket battleship" is another term for a Battlecruiser? At least that's how I understood it.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 36,847 Arc User
    it is - same firepower, less armor​​
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  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,532 Arc User
    I get the risian ships are foremost for the summer event but why can't you just leave it to a science dreadnought and not a tiny pilot because I absolutely can't stand ships smaller then a fed battlecruiser let alone my shamshir dreadnought warbird

    1) Different strokes for different folks. I love small ships and dislike the big ones. YMMV.

    2) Never look a gift horse in the mouth. We get a free T6 ship three times a year. You want a pony, too?

  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,626 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    • Cryptic hasn't come up with a good idea for a Risan Dreadnought yet, since Dreadnought doesn't exactly scream "vacation time"

    The Vorgon Ytijara Dreadnought Cruiser says hello from 2018?

    He said RISAN...not Vorgon.

    The Risian ships are designed to be fast and agile...a slow and bulky Dreadnought is the exact opposite of that. Plus we pretty much know we will be getting the Risian Cruiser next year unless they shock us with something else.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Love to see Tier 6 Jem'Hadar Attack Ships, Recon and Strike Ships myself, as event reward.
    JH do not have that many ships, and these then are lock-boxed?
    Tsssk, shame on you, whomever did this, or brought up this idea to have the MAIN JH ship lock-boxed!!!
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    That ship sailed LOOOOONG before JH were playable. Several years in fact. Technically speaking the T5 Holy Bugship was the very first Winter Event ship. Course back then we didn't have a system to earn progress towards it. I think you had to earn present boxes that had a chance to get one.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 2,958 Arc User
    Well he asked for dreadnought and didn't add cruiser to it, so I would assume he wants a sci or tac dreadnought.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,493 Arc User
    kiksken wrote: »
    Love to see Tier 6 Jem'Hadar Attack Ships, Recon and Strike Ships myself, as event reward.
    JH do not have that many ships, and these then are lock-boxed?
    Tsssk, shame on you, whomever did this, or brought up this idea to have the MAIN JH ship lock-boxed!!!

    That's because those literally existed for 5+ years before the JH faction did.
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    OK, but they could have released it, as the JH became a fact.
    Those ships were their "ENTIRE fleet", almost.
    Almost.

    It's like playng ST Voyager... with the Voyager in a very expensive luckbox (expensive due to the chance you get, overall).
    Or the Borg without Cubes.
    That is just wrong.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    kiksken wrote: »
    OK, but they could have released it, as the JH became a fact.
    Those ships were their "ENTIRE fleet", almost.

    You do know that the JH starter ship is actually a T5U Bugship right? While its not the promo T6 or the original T5 Holy Bugship, you still start out in a Bugship.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    That is not the point, is it.
    These ships are the stack of the JH fleet, but not available unless you throw an insane amount of money at it.
    THAT is the point.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    And the other point is that was done LONG before they were a playable faction.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,481 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    That ship sailed LOOOOONG before JH were playable. Several years in fact. Technically speaking the T5 Holy Bugship was the very first Winter Event ship. Course back then we didn't have a system to earn progress towards it. I think you had to earn present boxes that had a chance to get one.

    It was the first lockbox ship. IIRC you bought the box right of the shop; keys came later. But it might have been winter when it was released.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    The first actual Lockbox ship was the Galor. The Bugship was a chance drop from the presents you got in the first Winter Event. I think you could buy those present boxes with winter event currency though. It also wasn't as easy to earn the currency items back then. I think some people resorted to autoclickers to just clam dig the snowball piles.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • theanothernametheanothername Member Posts: 1,481 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The first actual Lockbox ship was the Galor. The Bugship was a chance drop from the presents you got in the first Winter Event. I think you could buy those present boxes with winter event currency though. It also wasn't as easy to earn the currency items back then. I think some people resorted to autoclickers to just clam dig the snowball piles.

    Sure? Thought the Galor came in 2nd after the Bug "prototype"/testing the waters. Foggy on the how to obtain details; too long ago and since I neither cared for that ship nor like lootbox gambling my STO enthusiasm was quite low back then.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 7,493 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    And the other point is that was done LONG before they were a playable faction.

    Which is exactly what I said and it got blown off.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    You do know that the JH starter ship is actually a T5U Bugship right? While its not the promo T6 or the original T5 Holy Bugship, you still start out in a Bugship.

    Depends on your definition of what a "Bugship" is... the starter JH T5U does not have access to the canon Bugship hull, but does have a similar in-game function. It's a bit like the old "the Guardian is the T6 Ambassador" argument.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    Huh... I didn't know they were C-store boxes...
    sto wiki wrote:
    These ships were originally available from purchasing the Winter Package from the C-Store during the period from December 8, 2011 - January 9, 2012. The Winter Package could be opened for one of a variety of items, including the ultra-rare possibility of a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship. It includes a unique Jem'Hadar bridge.

    I just knew there were present boxes you could get in game. I never touched the C-Store back then because I was just starting out.

    https://sto.gamepedia.com/Jem'Hadar_Attack_Ship
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    Well, at least give the JH a full T-6 Command/Tactical bug.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    Would probably devalue the T6 Promo Bugs. While they are not full Specialist ships, one does have Command seating, the Strike Ship variant.
    And if a T6 Bugship was released in the C-Store, the forums would light on fire because everyone who has the Promo variants would be raging that their bugships are no longer Promo.

    And it is possible that they may be eyeballing an eventual Jem'Hadar Legendary Bugship, like they did the Legendary T'Liss Warbird.

    Its a balancing act really. Having to contend with things before the release of playable Jem'Hadar. Back when they made those ships, I doubt they had ever considered the possibility of having any form of Dominion Player faction. So pretty much their entire fleet ended up in a Lockbox or Promo.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Well, it is an old promo.
    So, does it still matter?

    I would for instance not mind if the Borg were released for everyone else...?
    JH just NEEDS a DECENT bug.
    That is a simple fact.
    Why?
    Read my posts above.
    It's CANON...
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 54,800 Community Moderator
    edited August 2020
    So is the Connie. But they have made it pretty clear at this point that Feds aren't getting a standard C-Store Connie outside of the T2 Exeter... oh wait... they took out the 1-4 tiers from the C-Store.

    Canon does not equal required. Canon cannot be used as an argument. Just because something is Canon doesn't mean God or the Powers That Be demand it.

    The fact of the matter is, this is something you're demanding. You don't speak for everyone. Only yourself. Trying to hide behind Canon doesn't add anything, and honestly the tone is coming across more as "I don't care about anyone else. Give me what I want". Your whole argument literally boils down to that and "Because its Canon. Why? Because ITS CANON."

    Everyone want's something or other. Most of us just don't bash others over the head with the Canon shtick over it. Usually when Canon is used as an argument, its misused to try and push a personal view on what is and isn't canon, and causes fights and attempts at gatekeeping.

    There are 4 Bugship variants already in game, and one spiritual successor in the Vanguard Raider.
    IF, and I stress the word IF, the Devs decide to make another Bugship variant, that is their choice. No amount of ranting and raving about Canon is going to change that.

    You want to talk about Bugships more? Please start another thread. Although honestly the tone of the argument makes it clear you're not interested in civil discussion and would prefer to just beat people over the head with the Canon Stick.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,462 Arc User
    This guy takes issue with this whole 'canon' thing:

    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
    Lt. Philip J. Minns
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    I think JHeinig's take on the Risa summer ship would make a nice dreadnaught. I thought it looked more like a research base with engines than a sleek/fast science ship. so as a dread carrier? mwa! perfect fit!
    b8b5cd93c78e97debd84417837dbb9491587594490.png
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