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Beams, cannons, or combo?

devencombsdevencombs Member Posts: 222 Arc User
I have a fleet T6 Recon Destroyer with one phaser dual beam bank, two phaser DHC, and a quantum torp up front. Aft are the quantum phase catalyst torp and beam array, and a phaser omni-directional array.

Am I getting the most out of this weapon loadout? Would it be better for me to have all beams or all cannons? And which is more efficient at dealing damage, beams or cannons? The reason I ask is because I keep hearing conflicting stories about what is more useful.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Usually it is more efficient to run either beams or cannons instead of mixing, but it is not the only viable way. If you run any science powers you will need at least one beam for some of them that use the beam to "conduct" the effect. One common thing on cannon-armed science ships is to run one omnibeam in the back for the science stuff and the rest cannons and turrets so they do not have to have both cannon and beam tac powers on the bar.

    There are other reasons to mix too, often due to niche builds, but unless you are trying for top of the DPS list mixing only looses you a small percentage of DPS if you do it right, so it is not usually a problem either way. One thing I have taken to doing on my latest ship is to have one single canon up front since it can "see" though the visual spam that I often cannot and when I hear it firing I know to be ready to hit beam overload button because I have an enemy ship coming into arc (of course that only works because it is a Ba'ul cannon and sounds different from the others that NPCs and other players usually use, if they become too common that trick would not work anymore).

    In general though, cannons put more raw damage downrange (dual heavys are the ones to use, plain duals have no advantages anymore except that they are supported on more more ships than the DHCs), but they have a narrower arc so you need a ship that can maneuver faster than than you need for a beam-armed one. It is really more about which works best with your ship and your play style. I have no idea what the Recon Destroyer handles like so I cannot recommend anything more specific.

    Also, with beams there are two distinct styles. Dual beam banks force you to fly at the enemy like cannons do, but beam arrays favor a broadside style because both the front and rear array arcs overlap at the sides.
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • seriousdaveseriousdave Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    Unless you'r making use of the MW power Mixed Armaments Synergy there's almost no point in mixing beams & cannons.
    Energy weapons are only worth their money if they are properly supported by boff powers, even on an escort it'd be somewhat iffy to try supporting both beams and cannons along with torps. Either run with DBBs+omnis or DHCs+turrets to get the most out of your destroyer.

    Also get rid of the standard quantum torp. Generally all the standard variants are pretty much a waste of space.
    Use the special stuff that has some other effects like the quantum phase torp, gravwell torp, PEP-torp, etc. or some torp that's part of a useful set.
  • warmonger360warmonger360 Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    simple. if it were my ship, weapons would be canon, as all my ships are
    WE SURVIVE!

    aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
    either to conquer or to die for the Empire
  • echattyechatty Member Posts: 5,913 Arc User
    simple. if it were my ship, weapons would be canon, as all my ships are

    I have a friend who's the same. All her ships are canon, as is her ground gear.

    Me? I use different setups, according to my mood.
    Now a LTS and loving it.
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  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    It is possible to mix beams and cannons effectively, but generally you don't want to. The main reason is the difficulty with slotting the tactical powers you need. Mixed armaments synergy and a trait like preferential targeting can make it very worthwhile if you also have the tac powers to spare. The 2 piece Disco rep set bonus might also be compelling enough to just run the DBB in a cannon build, and some builds can also find value to go with the 2 piece undine rep set using the turret, especially in a 4/4 ship.

    For the New Orleans, I'd say it depends on what you're doing with your uni boff. If you're using it as another tac, you can have enough tac powers to spare to enhance all your weapons. If not, though, I really wouldn't do it.
  • devencombsdevencombs Member Posts: 222 Arc User
    Everyone, thanks for your help. I actually have three ships, for three different toons, using beams and cannons. The Fleet T6 Recon Destroyer, a Fleet T6 Phantom Intel Escort, and a Fleet T5U Battlecruiser. The hard part will be figuring out which weapon type works best on each ship. I'm thinking of giving the Phantom escort all cannons, and the other two get dual beams.

    Cannons seem to pack a heavier punch than beams in most cases, but beams hit the target instantly; cannon shots take time to get to the target. The travel time is pretty short, but that difference can be important in certain situations. That's the main reason why I was mixing beams and cannons: each one makes up for the other's shortfalls.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    devencombs wrote: »
    Cannons seem to pack a heavier punch than beams in most cases, but beams hit the target instantly; cannon shots take time to get to the target. The travel time is pretty short, but that difference can be important in certain situations.

    This is all fairly accurate, yes. Cannons are definitely going to give you more damage.. that is what you use when you really want a ship that can clear the screen. As you said though, they do require more effort then beams, but I strongly recommend you try an all Cannon/Turret load out and practice with it. It's one of the few things in this game where you can put in some effort and gain a real reward. I was a 'beam only' guy for several years and when I finally decided to switch over to cannons.. I had a hard time with it. The more I played with Cannons though, the more I learned how to control my ship and keep my targets in my firing arc, and now I am a huge fan of the way 'front facing' ships fly.

    My 2 cents though, Dual Beam Banks are not worth it. They require all the same effort as Dual Cannons/Dual Heavy Cannons they just do less damage. The ship flies just like a cannon ship.. the only thing you really do with Dual Beam Banks is nerf your output. Usually when I go Beams, I go single beams all around and keep the enemies on my sides. This technique is called 'Boradsiding' for obvious reason. It takes less effort and has a higher reward then using Dual Beams. DBB's are honestly in a pretty bad place right now IMO. I don't see a reason to use them.. pretty much ever. Your results my vary.

    That's the main reason why I was mixing beams and cannons: each one makes up for the other's shortfalls.

    I understand where the thought process comes from, the issue is that isn't actually true. All it does is create more shortfalls for each weapon because now your bridge officer layout is a mess. I think once you try an 'all one type' build and see how much more efficient it is to build the ship, you'll understand why people mostly suggest you don't mix beams and cannons.

    Best of luck to you.
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  • warmonger360warmonger360 Member Posts: 524 Arc User
    echatty wrote: »
    simple. if it were my ship, weapons would be canon, as all my ships are

    I have a friend who's the same. All her ships are canon, as is her ground gear.

    Me? I use different setups, according to my mood.

    wise, is she. this is scifi, not fantasy
    WE SURVIVE!

    aut vincere aut mori pro imperio
    either to conquer or to die for the Empire
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    I always mix at least one beam bank into my cannon setups because it looks nice pig-1.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Important note is that to use cannons to their max efficiency uses different tactics to using beams to their max efficiency.


    With beams you want to keep your sides towards the enemy thus having overlapping fire from both your front and rear arc, due the 270 degree firing arc beams have, but you have less damage per weapon so having the enemy at front arc isn't as effective as using cannons for it. the effectiveness of beams depends on having 6-8 full power weapons firing at the enemy at once (cannons as only get max 5 as turrets trade DPS for firing arc)

    Cannons in the other hand have 180 degree firing arc which makes them a poor at shooting at the side (you have to have the enemy exactly at center line or either the front or rear arc won't fire and the best way to use cannons in to have the enemy at your front arc and use turrets at the back (360 beams work too but they won't get benefits from cannon specific boff powers like turrets do). This however means that cannons are best on ships that have the turn rate to be able to keep their front pointing towards the target (you wouldn't want use the cannons on a D'deridex even though IIRC it's possible as they got so low turn rate that you cannon up time would be really low).

    Note that you should never keep the enemy at your rear arc if you can avoid it.

    EDIT:this difference in tactics becomes even more pronounced if you use dual cannons.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Just to clarify.. Single Beam firing arc is 250 degrees.

    Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons are 45 degrees. This can be expanded to 90 degrees using Cannon Scatter Volley.

    Singe Cannon firing arc is 180 degrees.
    spiritborn wrote: »
    This however means that cannons are best on ships that have the turn rate to be able to keep their front pointing towards the target (you wouldn't want use the cannons on a D'deridex even though IIRC it's possible as they got so low turn rate that you cannon up time would be really low).

    In my opinion, this is not true.

    I use Cannons on mostly cruisers with lower turn rates and they work fine, especially if you use the Competitive Impulse Engines for the turn boost. Ships like the Romulan Scimitar, Tzenkethi Tzen-Tar, Vaaduar Juggernaut, and the Vengeance make some of the best cannon boats in the game.
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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    This however means that cannons are best on ships that have the turn rate to be able to keep their front pointing towards the target (you wouldn't want use the cannons on a D'deridex even though IIRC it's possible as they got so low turn rate that you cannon up time would be really low).

    In my opinion, this is not true.

    I use Cannons on mostly cruisers with lower turn rates and they work fine, especially if you use the Competitive Impulse Engines for the turn boost. Ships like the Romulan Scimitar, Tzenkethi Tzen-Tar, Vaaduar Juggernaut, and the Vengeance make some of the best cannon boats in the game.
    Well you need to know how to do that, for a new player (or older player who just didn't think about these things) it might be better to first learn archetypes and when they've learned those they should learn the exceptions.
  • baudlbaudl Member Posts: 4,060 Arc User
    "works fine" applies to almost anything in this game you throw together. In my opinion, cruisers should have at least 9 base turnrate AND gear towards turnrate to make DHC "work fine".
    But when you start sacrificing gear slots for more turnrate, you are basically cutting potential DPS for that slot.

    That said, I also used a Scimitar with DHC for years..."worked just fine"
    with DBB now it works a little bit "finer" ;)
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Well you need to know how to do that, for a new player (or older player who just didn't think about these things) it might be better to first learn archetypes and when they've learned those they should learn the exceptions.

    A fair point indeed. :smile:
    Insert witty signature line here.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Well you need to know how to do that, for a new player (or older player who just didn't think about these things) it might be better to first learn archetypes and when they've learned those they should learn the exceptions.

    A fair point indeed. :smile:

    After all if our goal is to help people rather then confuse them to point they quit the game, it's generally preferable that we start with the basics.

    That's why I chose D'deridex as an example it's slow turning (might even be the slowest turning) that you get fairly early (it was either T3 or T4 IIRC) and also IIRC it doesn't have a T6 version atm. So someone leveling up shouldn't invest (or equip) cannons on the warbird as it turns way too slow and by the time you get the gear that can compensate for that there's better options out there.

    cannons on a fast turning ship, beams on a slow turning ship is the basic rule, once they've learned that and learned why this is so they can start learning about the exceptions to those rules, for example how to build a cannon boat with a slow base turn rate.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Well you need to know how to do that, for a new player (or older player who just didn't think about these things) it might be better to first learn archetypes and when they've learned those they should learn the exceptions.

    A fair point indeed. :smile:

    After all if our goal is to help people rather then confuse them to point they quit the game, it's generally preferable that we start with the basics.

    That's why I chose D'deridex as an example it's slow turning (might even be the slowest turning) that you get fairly early (it was either T3 or T4 IIRC) and also IIRC it doesn't have a T6 version atm. So someone leveling up shouldn't invest (or equip) cannons on the warbird as it turns way too slow and by the time you get the gear that can compensate for that there's better options out there.

    cannons on a fast turning ship, beams on a slow turning ship is the basic rule, once they've learned that and learned why this is so they can start learning about the exceptions to those rules, for example how to build a cannon boat with a slow base turn rate.

    Actually, the D'deridex does have a T6 version, the D'Khellra and its console forms part of a 3 piece set which does up its turn rate at 2 pieces. Also having battle cloak (which can be activated more frequently with 5 SRO) it has a built in button to boost turn rate that most other big ships just don't have. It is possible to do a cannon build on a D'Khellra, even if you probably shouldn't.
  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,593 Arc User
    simple. if it were my ship, weapons would be canon, as all my ships are

    pretty hard to do considering over half the ships in the game are not canon, and there are arguments that even screen time ships are armed differently. search for the Akira... there are flame wars on if that ship even HAS beams. there are people out there that argue she was a torpedo, boat, pure and simple. and your T'liss.. are you really going to run that ship as a submarine with just the beach ball of death? nothing else?

    OP. if you are chasing DPS, listen to the DPS league guys. otherwise just put what you want on it. you really have to mismatch to get to the point you can't beat all content on normal. my Odyssey with a regular photon forward tears through the ships in the even mission and I know it's sup-optimal because I am running the T5 3 pc set. but I think it's fun, and at the end of the day, I'm the one who is happy
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    So are the Constitution, Galaxy, Sovereign, Defiant, Intrepid, NX, Crossfield, T'Liss, D'deridex, Scimitar, D7, B'Rel.... the only suitable 'canon' ships? :)

    Seriously, six of my Characters use cannons, split about half between Single and DHCs builds.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
    Judge Dan Haywood
    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 2,593 Arc User
    what I am saying is that by definition Canon means having appeared on screen. your choice if you want to count easter eggs like the Millennium Falcon in First Contact or the ET aliens in the Phantom Menace. so yes the ships you mentioned count, along with the Neg'Var and Vor'Cha and along with that goes all of the inconsistencies.
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,820 Arc User
    I build for fun more than to max dps...depending on the ship I may use one, the other, or both.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    pretty hard to do considering over half the ships in the game are not canon, and there are arguments that even screen time ships are armed differently. search for the Akira... there are flame wars on if that ship even HAS beams. there are people out there that argue she was a torpedo, boat, pure and simple. and your T'liss.. are you really going to run that ship as a submarine with just the beach ball of death? nothing else?
    (...)

    I know you are just making a point, but whoever argues that the Akira is some kind of torpedo boat *without beam banks* - you can put that argument down because it's literally firing phaser beams on screen in the opening battle of First Contact. So... pig-2.gif​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • chastity1337chastity1337 Member Posts: 1,606 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Forgive me please if I have missed it, but the one big consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet is the placement of BOFF powers.

    The Level I, II, III beam powers go in Ensign, Lieutenant, Lt Commander slots, so you only need a Tac Lt. Commander seat to get the top level beam powers. (As an aside, this is also true of torpedoes)

    But the Cannon powers go in the Lieutenant, Lt Commander, Commander slots. This means you cannot use the CRF or CSV III powers without a ship that has a Tactical Commander BOFF seat, and those are less common by far.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    simple. if it were my ship, weapons would be canon, as all my ships are

    pretty hard to do considering over half the ships in the game are not canon, and there are arguments that even screen time ships are armed differently. search for the Akira... there are flame wars on if that ship even HAS beams. there are people out there that argue she was a torpedo, boat, pure and simple. and your T'liss.. are you really going to run that ship as a submarine with just the beach ball of death? nothing else?

    I'm pretty sure we see the Akira fire beams in First Contact (the movie that is not the TNG episode), that said even the GCS had various ways of shooting from just 1 beam to dozen beams and several torps at once, so I'd say it's pretty safe to say if the model has a phaser array on it we can assume it can fire beams. As far as pure torp boats we got the example of 1 experimental ship (class?) the T'liss pretty much all other ships used by the major powers have used a mixed armament, in canon that is.

    Cannons are another matter as we only seen the Defiant class from starfleet capital ships use them, though aliens use them more often.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    angrytarg wrote: »
    pretty hard to do considering over half the ships in the game are not canon, and there are arguments that even screen time ships are armed differently. search for the Akira... there are flame wars on if that ship even HAS beams. there are people out there that argue she was a torpedo, boat, pure and simple. and your T'liss.. are you really going to run that ship as a submarine with just the beach ball of death? nothing else?
    (...)

    I know you are just making a point, but whoever argues that the Akira is some kind of torpedo boat *without beam banks* - you can put that argument down because it's literally firing phaser beams on screen in the opening battle of First Contact. So... pig-2.gif​​

    Torpedo ships having no other weapons is, with one possible exception (the experimental BoP from "Balance of Terror"), only a thing in STO, because of the way the system works. The Akira could very well be a torpedo ship in canon since it seems to have more launchers than usual according to things pointed out in the original design by the designer.

    Of course, people have also pointed out that the large pass-through shuttle bay could mean that it is some kind of carrier.

    And it is not the only "torpedo boat" shown to have guns in Trek. Technically, the Intrepid class was supposed to be a torpedo destroyer large enough to ride the line between destroyer and cruiser, it was actually designed to be the Star Trek equivalent of the real world Arleigh Burke class missile destroyer, and part of the drama was the dwindling torpedo count which meant they had to rely more and more on their secondary weapon system, the phasers (the way the Nathan James had to rely more and more on its five-inch gun in The Last Ship in some seasons). The first few episodes actually have vestiges of the original survival-drama concept before it got Bermanized into just another generic cruiser-procedural story.
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    Forgive me please if I have missed it, but the one big consideration I haven't seen mentioned yet is the placement of BOFF powers.

    The Level I, II, III beam powers go in Ensign, Lieutenant, Lt Commander slots, so you only need a Tac Lt. Commander seat to get the top level beam powers. (As an aside, this is also true of torpedoes)

    But the Cannon powers go in the Lieutenant, Lt Commander, Commander slots. This means you cannot use the CRF or CSV III powers without a ship that has a Tactical Commander BOFF seat, and those are less common by far.

    Yes, you are correct.. Beam Powers are one rank lower then cannons.

    You should ALWAYS take the highest rank power you can for your main tactical attack. So if you're running Beams, your Lt. Commander Tactical should feature Fire At Will III. As you go down in rank the powers suffer a damage penalty and most importanly they lose accuracy to a frankly.. ridiculous degree. Fire At Will I for example is so bad it's actually a DPS loss most of the time over slotting nothing. It's awful.

    For Cannons, most of the time you will likely find yourself using Scatter Volley or Rapid Fire at Rank II because it's a lot harder to find ships with a Full Commander slot to reserve to the Tactical. To combat this, most times on my cannon builds I use a console like Hostile Acquistion to make up the difference. It's a console that's very inexpensive from the exchange but will help with performance overall. For a Beam ship, honestly.. if I can't use FAW at Rank III I pick another ship.
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  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Torpedo ships having no other weapons is, with one possible exception (the experimental BoP from "Balance of Terror"), only a thing in STO, because of the way the system works. The Akira could very well be a torpedo ship in canon since it seems to have more launchers than usual according to things pointed out in the original design by the designer.

    Of course, people have also pointed out that the large pass-through shuttle bay could mean that it is some kind of carrier.

    And it is not the only "torpedo boat" shown to have guns in Trek. Technically, the Intrepid class was supposed to be a torpedo destroyer large enough to ride the line between destroyer and cruiser, it was actually designed to be the Star Trek equivalent of the real world Arleigh Burke class missile destroyer, and part of the drama was the dwindling torpedo count which meant they had to rely more and more on their secondary weapon system, the phasers (the way the Nathan James had to rely more and more on its five-inch gun in The Last Ship in some seasons). The first few episodes actually have vestiges of the original survival-drama concept before it got Bermanized into just another generic cruiser-procedural story.

    The Intrepid-class is a downsized Galaxy class, it was never meant to be anything but that.

    See:

    Page 7: The USS Voyager is the newes Federation starship. It is an Intrepid class vessel, one of the fastest and most powerful in the Starfleet. It continues the tradition of exploration and discovery established by Captain James Kirk on the USS Enterprise nearly a century ago. (...) The original mission of Voyager was primarily exploration and research, and it was superbly equipped for both. For those occasions when a show of military force is unavoidable, the ship is equipped with an impressive array of defensive and offensive weapons. (sic)

    Page 21: The mission of Voyager is exploration, science and diplomacy. It is not a warship, nor is Starfleet a military organization in the 20th century sense. Nevertheless, the galaxy is a big place, full of unknown - and occasionally hostile - life forms. For those times when Voyager must protect itself during the journey back to the Federation, the ship is fully equipped with both defensive and offensive weaponry. When provoked, Voyager is a formidable adversary. Additionally, Janeway's staff is fully trained in cultural sociology, strategy and crisis analysis, and they have at their disposal a powerful array of information-gathering sensors and computers. They know that their skills in these areas are often more important in the succesful resolution of a crisis than are advanced weaponry. (sic)

    If the presence of photon torpedoes means it is a "torpedo destroyer" then I guess. But not really.

    Yes, the torpedo count was one part of the drama, however originally refueling was the big kicker. The above quoted guide mentiones replenishment of the matter/antimatter tanks to be the primary challenge the ship should face in the show, but I guess it didn't make it in the final draft pig-2.gif

    EDIT: Words​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 644 Arc User
    Unless you are chasing top dps on elite content, it doesn't really matter what you put on your boat.

    As a rule I go beams on ships that have LtCmdr tac and cannons on my commander boats like the Chargh. Been playing around with a turret build on my B'rel and torpedo uboat on my T'liss
  • vishara#9855 vishara Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    Surgical strikes can use both beam and cannons equally
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