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Better Dps with Nausicaan Torpedo or extra cannon?
misanthrope
Member Posts: 84 Arc User
in The Shipyard
As the title says can anyone tell me if I would get better dps using the nausicaan torpedo launcher with 4 cannons or better dps with all 5 cannons? I run a full disruptor build btw and my tactical consoles boost disruptor damage meaning they probably boost my nausicaan torpedo damage as well since the torpedo is disruptor-based damage instead of kinetic damage like most torpedoes.
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This before you add traits and consoles into the mix. All-Energy builds are superior no matter where your bottom line is.
If you're like me, and you really enjoy running a single torp on a TAC build, a better combination would be the Terran Task Force torpedo + the Terran Task Force energy weapon (Disruptor DHC in this case), the latter of which I'm assuming you're running. The torpedo from that set hits harder as the enemy hull gets lower, and at least then you're getting a useful projectile weapon damage buff from the 2-piece set bonus. But @redwren89 is also correct that you do lose a bit of DPS when you run a torpedo in place of another energy weapon. For me, I do enough DPS that I can afford the minor loss, and it keeps my builds more fun to play.
On a Disruptor beam build, however, I always run the entire 3-piece Nausicaan set.
if it's an Ultra Rare/Epic Dual Cannon/Dual Heavy cannon, it's easily gonna out-dps that torp.
If you're using Very Rare and Mission reward-level gear, the torpedo might do you good since your dual cannon in question is not a high-end piece.
You are right to take category 1 damage into account. But let me just provide a mathematical backing for my pointer.
Any standard mk XV weapon comes with an innate +284% of cat 1 damage. Add in say 4 tac consoles and thats another (39.4x4) 157% cat 1 damage added bringing the total to 441% cat 1 damage. Now, if you add the Nausicaan 3 piece, thats another 26.6% cat 1 damage, bringing the total to 467, but the overall effect of that 3 piece is going to contribute as follows:
100 x (26.6 divided by 467) = 5.7% overall damage increase.
Your question was essentially: is this 5.7% overall cat 1 damage increase worth more than the % dps difference between the torpedo and another turret/omni-beam? Also, if you continue to add cat 1 damage from other sources, the overall effectiveness of the 3 piece decreases even further.
Sorry but no, there are way more benefits to energy weapons that dwarf that 5.7% damage increase. Take emergency weapon cycle, thats a straight 20% dps boost without even considering power levels. Take Calm before the storm, an average 16% dps boost from the alternating haste buff.
However, this is where I sound like a hypocrit. I like the +50 hull penetration - it translates to ignoring 5% armour.
I love a torpedo on my ship, it has to be well boosted, benefiting from things like point defense bombardment matrix, commander spec: torpedo exploits. Pick traits that boosts all damage/crit like promise of ferocity, supercharged weapons, strike from shadows etc.
Fyi, ceaseless momentum and 1 or 2 projectile doffs provide you with an unending stream of Romulan Hyper plasma torpedoes. I use this with mixed armaments synergy and kemocite laced weaponry to melt stuff that doesn't die by energy weapons, or is unfortunate enough to be a target near that torpedo stream as the torpedoes lock on
There are always possibilities, but ultimately using a torpedo may be more fun but will not give you more dps than an all energy build, its that simple.
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> True, but that's assuming an all-else-being-equal one for one swapout.
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> The thing is, all else is not equal, because the torpedo doesn't use weapon subsystem power to fire, so potentially the other weapons on the ship with the torpedo are actually doing more damage (independently of the cat1 damage issue) because the weapon subsystem power is higher when it gets to them. That, combined with the higher cat1 damage, might result in the four remaining cannons plus the torpedo doing close to the same total damage as the five cannons would in your scenario (this apparently being based on a 5/3 build).
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> The same would possibly be true if slotting the beam in place of a turret to get the 3pc bonus (as it may not fire due to arc issues, while the turret is 360), and/or dropping the torpedo into an aft slot as well (so in this example you'd be running with five cannons, one turret, and two non-360 aft weapons).
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> I'm not saying that various differences (of those various ideas) would necessarily make a build with a single energy torp (remember, that means the torp benefits from the other cat1 +Disruptor boosts, which isn't normally the case for a torpedo) possibly better than an all-energy build, but I think it's probably within the range that determining the best practice would require actually field testing the build as a whole.
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> Which brings me back to my original statement: I do not think it's possible to definitively answer the original poster's question either yes or no, and certainly not without seeing the full build.
But my statement was purely baseline levels for most escorts before adding in builds. So you don't actually need to look at builds in practice to determine what is best as the comparison of stats all speak for themselves.
Power level fluctuations are inconsequential at your average overcapped power with reduced weapondrain.
The torpedo hits for garbage, like a single beam overload shot every 12 seconds. You get more out of an actual omnidirectional beam, and very similar dps to a heavy turret with rapid fire. If you knew what you were doing with energy weapons, you'd have a build that would waste the enemy before your torpedo even managed to hit your target.
What's not to understand?
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
If you carry on going down the road of 'I can't answer that' then you will forever be going around in circles, hoping for as many torpedo buffs as there are energy weapon buffs and comparing low dps torpedoes with higher dps energy weapons at baseline.
From what you ask? from the haste powers I mentioned earlier that take torpedoes completely out of contention for a dps chaser.
My advice: checkout the updated areas of the dps league website. Thats got some of the best advice there is that will answer the question. Don't worry though, its for everyone
This entire debate devolved over hypotheticals, and if we're all being honest here, DPS League is not the Holy Bible of STO DPS. And yes, while it's objectively accurate to say that running all energy weapons is generally going to allow for higher DPS capacity, there are situations where that may not be true. So I have to agree that it seems like @redwren89 is being a bit pedantic and condescending, without taking into account other build variables. To @westmetals point about not knowing the specific details concerning the rest of the build, the build may not have enough EPS/PTR to support running that 5th DHC, and if it doesn't, weapon power could bottom out which makes running a torpedo a better choice in that scenario (or fixing the PTR issue with the build).
Though I will take this opportunity to remind you, @westmetals, that you reacted in a similar fashion as @redwren89 in a thread I responded to about CTRL/EPG ratio where I was trying to help the OP more accurately add up all his Cat1 EPG. And while it digressed over UI differences between PC and console, the point I was making was still valid given that the EPG stat on the PC stat tab doesn't include Cat1 EPG expressed as % exotic damage. I didn't bother responding further after you became unhinged and had a meltdown.
My point here is that everyone needs to put their egos back in the box. We're all here for basically the same reason - to help other players understand the nuances of some very complicated game mechanics - not to compete with one another and have some pointless drama contest of who knows more about the game. If something someone is saying is utterly wrong, then politely correct them so that the misinformation doesn't get disseminated (which is rampant in this game), but beyond that, there's plenty of room for subjective opinion when it comes to builds in this game. @seaofsorrows is very good about acknowledging that in his/her posts. Let's try to be as respectful of each others contributions.
First of all, I am essentially supporting your position in this thread. But it seemed appropriate to point out that you went off the deep end yourself in another thread.
Second of all, in that other thread, if you go back and reread it with some emotional detachment, you'll see that you were the one who first mentioned referencing the EPG stat, to which I asked for the sake of clarification if you were referring to the Stats tab because console players don't have an EPG stat on their Stats tab. Then you accused me of confusing the discussion by bringing up differences between console and PC UIs, but I had only brought it up to clarify your initial reference to it, and to point out that you shouldn't assume someone is from PC or console. In either case, my underlying point that Cat1 EPG still has to be added up whether you're on PC or console was completely dismissed as you went down the rabbit hole about me bringing platform differences into the conversation. Which again, I only mentioned to clarify your reference to the EPG stat on PC in the first place.
So please stop playing the victim here. I totally support and agree with every point you've made in this thread. But it seems you get just as defensive whether you're in the right or not. Please get some perspective here. Or not.
The builds on the DPS League site are always intended as a suggestion.. as a guide. I keep hearing people talking about how the 'DPS League says it should be,' and that's not a thing. The League posts guides to be just that.. a guide. They have always encouraged experimentation and people altering the builds to fit their own style. While copying builds 1:1 is not something that's ever been discouraged, it's also not actively encouraged either. Please keep this in mind when referencing the posted builds.. these are posted with one intention and that's to provide help to anyone that wants to use it. It is not now, nor has it ever been a judgement against those that do it a different way.
I don't have one single ship that is a 1:1 copy of what is on the league site.
The last thing I'll say is that in my opinion @westmetals has more then proven he knows what he's talking about and has posted a wealth of helpful advice on this forum. If you disagree with him, that's cool too.. but lets try not to attack each other when we're all just trying to help the OP. He has more then proven he's capable of a civil exchange of ideas.
There are a few people around here that post helpful advice, all the people arguing here are among those people. @redwren89 and @mournblade#1863 have posed some good advice as well, as they always do. It's all worth consideration and all valid.. just people do things differently.
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> PLEASE stop with the condescension. I have been doing builds for years and so on.
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> I'm not speaking broadly and hypothetically about ALL torpedoes, far from it. I agree that with pretty much any other torpedo you would be correct. I'm speaking specifically about the original poster's proposed disruptor build using a disruptor energy torpedo.
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> I laid out two different theoretical build types (one with putting the torp forward and one putting it aft, both with the 3pc set and all other slots being used for DHCs or turrets as available)... either or both of which COULD possibly result in the build-with-THIS-torpedo being close enough to an all-energy build that the difference would require field testing.
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> Your mathematical analysis attempting to prove otherwise, assumes things about the rest of the build which I was simply unwilling to assume. (Weapon power overcapping, haste, etcetera.) My point was and is simply that you are making assumptions about what the rest of this build is, without actually seeing it. Or to be more direct, you're assuming that the rest of the build is exactly what the DPS League says it should be.
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> I come back to my original statement: I don't think there can be a definitive answer to this question without looking at the entire build. And a large part of my reason for saying that, is because that would tell us if they're having weapon power issues or not, have haste buffs or not, etecetera. When I asked "from what?" I was not unaware of the various methods you're talking about. I wanted to know what in this build was producing those, which you can't answer because we have only been told about the weapons and half of the consoles.
You're taking away the most used option to boost dps and then simply ignoring it. Then you're telling me that 'a build would need testing'. I'm not sure how much more hypocritical this can possibly get. In order to use a build,you would need to use these traits if you want a final answer on dps XD.
Worrying over weapon power nowadays is a bit obsolete now that firstly power levels sliding is boosted and that there are multiple easy options for traits to use that shut down this argument, all of which boost energy haste. So there is a best option. I'm trying to answer the question but I guess I have become somewhat condescending. That's because I'm disregarding hypothetical situations and you're disregarding the best dps traits in the game that answer the original question posted.
Moving on.
There seems to be, for some reason, a break down in communication here. I took baseline measurements and added in the best of what STO has to offer and came to the conclusion that a full energy build is better than utilising this 3 piece and I added in supporting evidence. Aside from that, its just been me being attacked for doing this and me being condescending in response.
Everyone should be overcapping power and adding in weapon energy drain resistance anyway if they are even remotely thinking about energy weapon dps. With this in mind, the above is true. Its been tried and tested with this same conclusion for years.
Dual heavy cannons are indeed as you said higher dps than torpedoes, even energy torpedoes, but the spike dmg can go very nearly as high if you add up the individual shots made by the dual heavy cannon within the same time frame as it took the torpedo to do its spike. For the best spike dmg on disruptors, I would recommend the wide angle dual heavy disruptor beam bank at tier 6 discovery reputation with Lorca console and a beam overload if you wanna hit 500k every few seconds (with tactical captain buffs). If you want to pvp, you might consider higher burst damage witht he torpedo and dual beam bank possibly but that's a whole different kettle of fish - its very difficult not to keep your nose on target in pve engagements.
In general, i think STO has gone the way of simultaneously buffing both energy weapons and torpedoes very nicely, but the ultimate min/max maths just dont support torpedoes just yet. I'm hoping there'll be more synergies in future as I am not against torpedoes at all!
For the Nausican torpedo, it actually benefits from torpedo boosts AND energy boosts both, so they double dip. Whether it's going to be better for you or not will depend on the rest of what you're doing. Assuming the goal is to throw out as much as possible in terms of damage, I personally wouldn't recommend it on a cannon setup as there's no nausican cannon, meaning you wouldn't be able to cheese the 3 piece. If you want a torp on the build then I would recommend doing the Dark Matter torpedo and the Lorca console for that 2 piece. Nausican torp is a fairly decent torp, but from what I'm seeing in the original post, I don't think it's the best choice for what you're wanting to do. There also comes a point when running too many sets hurts you more than it helps you.
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