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The ultimate item upgrade math problem

adamspire#9038 adamspire
adamspire#9038
 Member Posts: 30 Arc User
in Star Trek Online General Discussion
Ill do my best to explain this but I'm sure this will be long winded.

The short of it, is I'd like to know what measures QUALITY upgrade chances.

qV8cDe8.jpg
In this image you have a Mark 15 item that has a visual possibility of becoming an Epic quality item. However, I have tossed two phoenix tokens, 3 Omega particle [Quality] (yes three) tokens, and even one lower upgrade token into it and it has come no closer to being an epic item.

I've always had a much easier time getting to Epic status from a crafted Very rare MK 2 item, use a few normal Omega Particle tech upgrade tokens and I can usually get to epic before Mark 11

However, we now have these Omega Particle tech upgrade [Quality] tokens which I really through was used to help with the MK15 Ultra rare quality to Epic leap.Well having used three of them and got no closer to getting them to be epic, I simply dont understand what actually determines WHEN and HOW the quality rating increases.

(4) According to the info tab, the amount of tech points somehow relates to the chances the item will go up in Quality. Also, it states that if an item is at Mark 15 then the chance to improve, doesnt reset. (3)Well having gone from 10% back to 1% looks like a reset to me.

I even tried this out on a Very rare mark 15 to try to upgrade it to Ultra Rare. Same results, I tossed in one [Quality] token and 2 Phoenix tokens and the [Quality] Chance still resets to 1% and I am no closer to making it a higher quality.
8d6Ogoa.jpg

One more thing. There are times I upgrade a mark 15 item and I doesn't even visually show (possible result) a chance to get a quality upgrade. So what
1. triggers the quality upgrade chance from visually being seen to be a possibility.
2. What actually increases the pool to increase the % chance to upgrade the quality
3. or is 100% random % chance based on that one time you hit the “Apply Upgrade” button?

3M6TCpN.png

Comments

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    foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    Short answer, the quality improvement is averaged in proportion based on the tech points.

    Basically the quality upgrades are next to worthless because that 1 tech point they give is then averaged with the tech points and chance of everything else you give, as best as I can tell.
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    davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,512 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    They should have either kept the full tech points, or made the Quality omega an Accelerator. As it is now it's confusing to use and we're not sure it really works at all.

    I'm still debating whether to craft any more after trying a couple. I'm leaning towards making standard omegas instead.
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    foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    I'm fairly sure it is working exactly as designed. If we imagine some upgrade needs 25601 tech points, then we can apply a standard omega for 25600 @ 4x, and quality upgrade for 1@ 8x. So what is the upgrade quality going to be?

    Well my understanding is that it works fairly simply and checks the proportion of tech points each upgrade kit gives and then averages the quality chance by that proportion.

    So it would look something like 25600/25601*4x+1/25601*8x. This works out to about 3.9999x+.0003x, which is 4.0002x. As you can imagine it gets far worse the more tech points you need to fill up a level because that 1 point @ 8x is basically nothing.

    Hopefully they fix the quality upgrades. Making them accelerators makes a lot more sense. I'm a little more baffled at how this got released the way they are. I was under the impression they might have hard coded them to set the quality chance to 8x, but they really work the same as any upgrade kit, applying their tech points and proportionally calculating the quality chance based on that.
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    leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,344 Arc User
    The base improvement from UR to Epic is 2.5% increase each time you fill the bar when at MK XV.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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    adamspire#9038 adamspire
    adamspire#9038
         Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    The base improvement from UR to Epic is 2.5% increase each time you fill the bar when at MK XV.

    But as you can see, it resets back to a 1% chance. The only time the % remains is when keep pouring in the tokens.
    Maybe that's the trick. It only keeps the % chance while that one instance you keep upgrading it. if you claim the item and close the window, it resets to 1%

    Also it seems now the [MARK] token is more useful than the [Quality] one. with an item being epic at Mark X or XI, it will help get it up to MK XV without wasting too many phoenix tokens.
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    seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 10,918 Arc User
    adamspire#9038 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    The base improvement from UR to Epic is 2.5% increase each time you fill the bar when at MK XV.

    But as you can see, it resets back to a 1% chance. The only time the % remains is when keep pouring in the tokens.
    Maybe that's the trick. It only keeps the % chance while that one instance you keep upgrading it. if you claim the item and close the window, it resets to 1%

    Also it seems now the [MARK] token is more useful than the [Quality] one. with an item being epic at Mark X or XI, it will help get it up to MK XV without wasting too many phoenix tokens.

    That is very strange, I have never seen an upgrade behave that way.

    Normally, it behaves just as you expect where the bar increases every time. Normally, it also remains at that percentage even if you claim the item and resume the process later. I am really surprised to see that the percentage is resetting to 1% every time, that has to be a bug.

    Either way, I suggest you just use the Phoenix Upgrades and be done with Omega's completely. You will save yourself a lot of time, headache, and resources.
    Insert witty signature line here.
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    adamspire#9038 adamspire
    adamspire#9038
         Member Posts: 30 Arc User
    q1rd0gb.png

    Ok, so placing some credibility into the actual token, I tried this again. Using the [Quality] token on a MK II Very Rare crafted item, IS the first thing you need to do.

    OrtFk5u.png
    This then guarantees the item to be the next quality level Ultra Rare.

    Then using one more LUBpNJM.png

    I now have an EPIC Mk V item.

    Now I tossed in a 700 dilithium cost upgrade, between the two [Ultimate] because I was afraid the MK III didnt actually upgrade to Ultra Rare.

    I'll risk the upgrade without the 700 basic upgrade token to see if I even need it or not. But the good news is,
    DONT used the [Quality] token on a Mark X or higher
    DO use the [Quality} tokens on crafted Very Rare MK II items.

    Then use the [MARK] or phoenix tokens to get them to Mark XV.

    Thanks for following me on this.

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    gaevsmangaevsman Member Posts: 3,190 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    adamspire#9038 wrote: »
    q1rd0gb.png

    Ok, so placing some credibility into the actual token, I tried this again. Using the [Quality] token on a MK II Very Rare crafted item, IS the first thing you need to do.

    OrtFk5u.png
    This then guarantees the item to be the next quality level Ultra Rare.

    Then using one more LUBpNJM.png

    I now have an EPIC Mk V item.

    Now I tossed in a 700 dilithium cost upgrade, between the two [Ultimate] because I was afraid the MK III didnt actually upgrade to Ultra Rare.

    I'll risk the upgrade without the 700 basic upgrade token to see if I even need it or not. But the good news is,
    DONT used the [Quality] token on a Mark X or higher
    DO use the [Quality} tokens on crafted Very Rare MK II items.

    Then use the [MARK] or phoenix tokens to get them to Mark XV.

    Thanks for following me on this.

    Well, at least now i know my upgrade path, and i like it.. new toons with epic weapons sounds like fun! :smiley:

    Also, did it work with just quality tokens??
    Post edited by gaevsman on
    The forces of darkness are upon us!
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    westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,215 Arc User
    This is part of a bug I heard about right around the time the new omega particles went live. Don't use Omega tech upgrades for quality chance. For some reason they no longer keep the quality chance properly when you upgrade to the next level. Its something about how cryptic programmed the upgrade system as a whole that a +1 tech point breaks everything.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
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    robertdamonrobertdamon Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    edited May 2020
    I wish I'd seen this before I wasted 3 Omega quality upgrades just now. Threw one on each of 3 VR Mk XII Pulse Phaser Beams, then an Omega Mark upgrade on each. Similar to the description above, on the first upgrade shot (to Mk XIII) I had a 48% chance, but none of the three upgraded. In each case the improvement chance then reset from 48% to ZERO so subsequently the rest of the tech points, while upgrading each beam easily to Mk XV, were ultimately wasted as there no chance to improve. I agree with one of the posters above, this must surely be a bug, as no other upgrades lose the chance this way. If I'd known I wouldn't have bothered with the x8 research point upgrades in the first place, or at least not combined them with the Omega mark upgrades. What a waste.
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    leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 5,344 Arc User
    robertdamon wrote: »
    I wish I'd seen this before I wasted 3 Omega quality upgrades just now. Threw one on each of 3 VR Mk XII Pulse Phaser Beams, then an Omega Mark upgrade on each. Similar to the description above, on the first upgrade shot (to Mk XIII) I had a 48% chance, but none of the three upgraded. In each case the improvement chance then reset from 48% to ZERO so subsequently the rest of the tech points, while upgrading each beam easily to Mk XV, were ultimately wasted as there no chance to improve. I agree with one of the posters above, this must surely be a bug, as no other upgrades lose the chance this way. If I'd known I wouldn't have bothered with the x8 research point upgrades in the first place, or at least not combined them with the Omega mark upgrades. What a waste.

    Firstly, Necro.

    Secondly, the Rarity Chance resets every Mark increase until it hits XV, after which it accumulates everytime you fill the bar. This isn't a bug.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
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    darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 3,715 Community Moderator
    /necro
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
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