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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    Trennan,

    No ones talking about "player housing" in this thread. Its about 'logic mechanics' some simply refer to as "base building". -- For R&D, farming, regining, etc.. its a game on its own. That, atm, only the devs gets to play with.

    eg. Power:
    • How to find it.
    • How to harness it, under what limitations.
    • How to route it and manage it.

    Just to power a few biodomes so your personel can survive and actually conduct research and development. Etc..

    I can supply you pictures if words aren't perhaps driving the point home?

    "Player-created base" IS player housing under another name, just like "custom ship interiors" is player housing.

    Your personal custom space is your house.

    If instead you talk about some collaborative house-building that becomes a nightmare of group politics (see: fleet drama) and introduces opportunities for griefing and trolling. Some toothy trolls swoop in to add some genital-shaped buildings to your bubble town, the street lights are disco balls, and then some petty tyrant kicks you out of the town because reasons.

  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    Trennan,

    No ones talking about "player housing" in this thread. Its about 'logic mechanics' some simply refer to as "base building". -- For R&D, farming, regining, etc.. its a game on its own. That, atm, only the devs gets to play with.

    eg. Power:
    • How to find it.
    • How to harness it, under what limitations.
    • How to route it and manage it.

    Just to power a few biodomes so your personel can survive and actually conduct research and development. Etc..

    I can supply you pictures if words aren't perhaps driving the point home?

    "Player-created base" IS player housing under another name, just like "custom ship interiors" is player housing.

    Your personal custom space is your house.

    If instead you talk about some collaborative house-building that becomes a nightmare of group politics (see: fleet drama) and introduces opportunities for griefing and trolling. Some toothy trolls swoop in to add some genital-shaped buildings to your bubble town, the street lights are disco balls, and then some petty tyrant kicks you out of the town because reasons.

    I mentioned the community style, but not a collaborative that reason. I also try not to link my suggestions about it fleets, for that reason. For the community part, there is no instance owner. You get only the size of the area you paid for, you cannot build outside of that. Which mostly alleviates that last part there.

    Well, I take that back. I did mention a fleet tie in my monetization post. But that was purely on size.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    I have to agree with dave. You can call it "player created base" all you want, but under the hood it is basically "player housing".

    The more I hear about this, the more I'm picturing the housing districts in FF14. I got a nice little beachfront house in Mist on FF14. Managed to snag one of the new plots when the new wards opened up last year. Everything in everyone's yard is basically player created in terms of what their house looks like and what stuff is put in the yard. Also what's put inside the house too.

    While that would fall under your description of a "player created base"... its housing. The only other thing that can be considered "player created" is the work players are doing in the Firmament for the Ishgard Restoration. Once its done, odds are it will be... another housing district. While players aren't actually putting in structures, what's going on is that players are gathering resources and making supplies to fill up a bar, and then the big crafting spree to help open up a section.

    Either way... it is for Player Housing.
    trennan wrote: »
    Since they did away with Memory-Alpha, then why would it be worth the cost of dev time to bring back another version of it?

    I think the Klingon one was the forge at First City. And since it was a part of First City they couldn't remove it so they just removed the interacts.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I have to agree with dave. You can call it "player created base" all you want, but under the hood it is basically "player housing".

    The more I hear about this, the more I'm picturing the housing districts in FF14. I got a nice little beachfront house in Mist on FF14. Managed to snag one of the new plots when the new wards opened up last year. Everything in everyone's yard is basically player created in terms of what their house looks like and what stuff is put in the yard. Also what's put inside the house too.

    While that would fall under your description of a "player created base"... its housing. The only other thing that can be considered "player created" is the work players are doing in the Firmament for the Ishgard Restoration. Once its done, odds are it will be... another housing district. While players aren't actually putting in structures, what's going on is that players are gathering resources and making supplies to fill up a bar, and then the big crafting spree to help open up a section.

    Either way... it is for Player Housing.
    trennan wrote: »
    Since they did away with Memory-Alpha, then why would it be worth the cost of dev time to bring back another version of it?

    I think the Klingon one was the forge at First City. And since it was a part of First City they couldn't remove it so they just removed the interacts.

    Right the Great Forge area. See how long it's been.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    To be honest, I never even USED the Forge area. Just passed through.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 10,501 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    To be honest, I never even USED the Forge area. Just passed through.

    I did the tutorial mission crafting in the Forge back in 2012, but back then crafting was pretty bad.

    - You had to go to that location with many sector transitions / map changes (no unified quadrants, no free transwarp)
    - Higher level crafting needed very expensive mats
    - Crafted items were fixed level, fixed quality -- no upgrades

    Anyone who complains about crafting now never had to walk miles to school through the snow, uphill both ways :)
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Oh believe me. I know. I started playing about a month or so before F2P. So I remember The Time before the Walls Fell. I even remember when the only endgame besides Space Barbie was the Borg STFs and Roxy had a job on the Promenade.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Oh believe me. I know. I started playing about a month or so before F2P. So I remember The Time before the Walls Fell. I even remember when the only endgame besides Space Barbie was the Borg STFs and Roxy had a job on the Promenade.

    Don't forget hitting up the Big Dig and Breaking the Planet after that UR Mk XII gear to help get you started down the path of the Borg Advanced/Elites, and needing someone that could actually tank Armek.

    But we're digressing here.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • paladinrja#5247 paladinrja Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    Lol, I actually have to admit I'm a bit amused by this idea of "player housing" as its such an archaic convention in modern gaming; I personally haven't heard in almost 20yrs.. Purely cosmetic spaces isn't what this thread is based upon; and some of you are showing your age and lack of imagination!

    But anyway.. if we can possibly discuss the pertinent points raised about expanding on what players can do with all these accumulated assets, in more immersive ways that better echo the episodic content? -- that'd be swell!

    Hyperbolic comparisons with fleet holdings aside. Accidentally raises a good point? Being able to access the same unlocks in active ways through this, rather than gated by a permissions based guild system. Is something many players would welcome, I'm sure. -- Its a possible avenue, in any event.

    Many players complaining they are intensely lonely in a guild they have contributed what was asked of them and still exist with no permissions, even if not required to participate. Which defies all reason to join a guild. Most do so to play with others! Yet many feel more satisfied in rotations.

    trennan wrote: »
    But we're digressing here.
    Well.. if thats not the understatement of the year.. I dunno what is, lol! (J/k)
    XBOX One GT: Paladinrja
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    Lol, I actually have to admit I'm a bit amused by this idea of "player housing" as its such an archaic convention in modern gaming; I personally haven't heard in almost 20yrs.. Purely cosmetic spaces isn't what this thread is based upon; and some of you are showing your age and lack of imagination!

    But anyway.. if we can possibly discuss the pertinent points raised about expanding on what players can do with all these accumulated assets, in more immersive ways that better echo the episodic content? -- that'd be swell!

    Hyperbolic comparisons with fleet holdings aside. Accidentally raises a good point? Being able to access the same unlocks in active ways through this, rather than gated by a permissions based guild system. Is something many players would welcome, I'm sure. -- Its a possible avenue, in any event.

    Many players complaining they are intensely lonely in a guild they have contributed what was asked of them and still exist with no permissions, even if not required to participate. Which defies all reason to join a guild. Most do so to play with others! Yet many feel more satisfied in rotations.

    trennan wrote: »
    But we're digressing here.
    Well.. if thats not the understatement of the year.. I dunno what is, lol! (J/k)

    Me too, I am not against the idea. But as you can see, once you start talking about how it would have to be monetized, in order to make it worth the expense of dev time, interest levels drops. So some of it isn't just interest, it's interest only if it's free. I mean, just look at this thread. It was fairly active. Today though, it's been rather slow, since you know, cash money prices appeared in it. Which, for anything like this to come about, is what is going to have to happen. Without it I agree with Cryptic here, it just wouldn't be worth the cost of dev time to create it.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    I mean we had this long ago, it was the old R&D area named Memory-Alpha, I forget what the Klingon side of it was called, or even if they had one. It has long since gone away.
    No it hasn't.... It's that dark corner of the First City no one uses for anything any more. :/
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    My character Tsin'xing
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  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,963 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    ltminns wrote: »
    Yeah, with some people losing their minds over the Kobalis or the Mirror Universe Agony Weapons anything that can be construed as morally suspect would never fly. We're not talking the greatest generation here.

    Yeah, I always point to the reactions to Renegade actions in Mass Effect: 1 and 2, you punch out the odd pompous reporter, you act a bit more like a human-supremacist, mostly it's just being an antisocial jerk. But then in 3, you get to betray and then kill Wrex. Player reactions went from, "LOL, Shepard is a jerk" to "Holy s**t, Shepard is EVIL".

    The conclusion I draw is that when most people say "I want to play a bad guy", what they're actually saying is, "I want to play an amusing antisocial dickhead."

    Which funnily enough is kind of the difference between the mirror universe as portrayed from TOS to ENT (comically EVUL), and then how DSC season 1 played it (horrific).

    Got nothing on Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, though: instead of the usual "petty evil" cr@p, you get to do things like
    forcing Akachi, a.k.a. the Spirit-Eater you're hosting, to devour his own lover for whose sake he betrayed his patron god Myrkul (what started this whole snowball rolling in the first place), and then merging with him to turn yourself into a world-desolating, god-slaying incarnation of pure elemental hunger and fury.
    trennan wrote: »
    The Tzenkethi, not the first time the Federation has had trouble with them. What he have in game is actually like the 4th. But always seems to end in stalemate. No one side agreeing to anything, more just kind of going they're separate ways.

    Victory Is Life actually resolved this in a console dialogue (in "Storm Clouds Gather" IIRC): the Tzenkethi (rather reasonably) went into a civil war after the Crusade failed, which was likely exacerbated by Tzen-Tarrak turning out to have been the Female Changeling all along.
    "Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
    — Sabaton, "Great War"
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  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    Well, no wonder the subject isn't being discussed then. This is less about "player housing" and more about expanding on the gaming. Which is why we play games. To game.

    There isn't enough interest in player housing per se. Your ship interior has a Captain's Quarters; and STO is mostly about the ships more than anything else.

    Now please not I'm not saying there in no interest whatsoever; but over the years, it's been borne out that not many will actually pay for interiors or other forms of player housing - and Cryptic prioritizes Dev time and resources on what gives them the best ROI (IE best dollar return for time and development money spent) - and player housing doesn't have a good enough ROI for Cryptic to spend Dev time and resources expanding it.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 4,248 Arc User
    Thing we should remember that Cryptic has access to data we don't and isn't probably making judgements on what to produce on roll of a dice. In the end Cryptic is a "for profit" company and thus is something isn't giving enough net profit they won't do it. So while there's people who might be intrested in what OP suggests, that was never the relevant question, but rather the relevant question is "is there enough people who are intrested in this to justify the production costs". Note that aspect in question doesn't have to produce profit directly but it can boost other factors that do.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    spiritborn wrote: »
    Thing we should remember that Cryptic has access to data we don't and isn't probably making judgements on what to produce on roll of a dice. In the end Cryptic is a "for profit" company and thus is something isn't giving enough net profit they won't do it. So while there's people who might be intrested in what OP suggests, that was never the relevant question, but rather the relevant question is "is there enough people who are intrested in this to justify the production costs". Note that aspect in question doesn't have to produce profit directly but it can boost other factors that do.

    I've been the one mentioning that the entire time. With 'player housing', 'customizable interiors', 'player-built anything', whatever you want to call it, it's all going to be the same. Cryptic is going need to see it as profitable, in order to get them to devote the dev time to creating it. Like I pointed out, interest in this seems to have dropped when the thought of having to pay real money for it was introduced. Kind of eludes to not only do they want it, they want it for free.

    Well not sure how Cryptic could monetize, or turn a profit from, the customizable TFOs that were mentioned. I would see that as more of a fleet thing, much like the colony simulations.

    @sirsitsalot And no one is against any of the ideas. It's more those of us, like spiriborn and others, including myself, have pointed out. It will, in some way, have to be profitable enough for Cryptic, before they'll even consider making it.

    As for the meh part. We can agree there. The game play is rather easy and boring. Story line falls there as well, mediocre at best. However, some good news on that, Measure of Morality finally announced it's 2411! So, we're finally out of the 2410 time warp.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    Problem. Sector space is travel at warp. So why would they need to be dropped back into sector space if they are supposed to be traveling at warp anyways? Also... what about Transwarp or Slipstream?
    Not only that... but some ships travel faster than others at sublight, meaning trying to match speeds for this convoy run would be difficult.

    And this isn't EVE. Players aren't going to want to sit around for a 10 minute convoy. I hate to say it, but this community is more interested in shooting things, and shooting things quickly. Why else is Infected Space still popular despite being some of the oldest content in the game? Its quick, and has lots of targets.
    Using your example, sitting around for 10 minutes with only a 16% chance of an encounter? We already have some people complaining about timegated content, and how some events are now "auto win" because all you have to do is wait out a timer and it completes. This would just be considered another "timegate". Not only that... you get some high DPS into one of these convoy runs... just consider the encounter chance to be 0% because the second the enemy appears... they are dead.

    In theory your proposal is interesting, as it adds more variation in group content. In practice, with the current meta? Its terrible and would just light yet another brushfire here on the forums.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • paladinrja#5247 paladinrja Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    There isn't enough interest in player housing per se. Your ship interior has a Captain's Quarters; and STO is mostly about the ships more than anything else.

    Now please not I'm not saying there in no interest whatsoever; but over the years, it's been borne out that not many will actually pay for interiors or other forms of player housing - and Cryptic prioritizes Dev time and resources on what gives them the best ROI (IE best dollar return for time and development money spent) - and player housing doesn't have a good enough ROI for Cryptic to spend Dev time and resources expanding it.

    Nope its fine, and I agree. Cosmetic spaces were "a thing" when DLC was in its infancy. From what I've heard nowadays, if its not functional or integral to the character development, most gamers now consider it imersion breaking and wasteful. -- Without reintetpreting everything the games producers have said on the matter; then becomes obvious that unless finding some way to go beyond merely cosmetic? Ship interior layouts became less of a priority too.

    Which is why I'm not talking about that. -- The games already riddled with cosmetic elements. Add to that, there isn't a game on Earth that doesn't offer the player some kind of cosmeticism. Its something that can be embedded in anything.

    So, its actually rather disingenuous of some to reduce the premise of this thread to a pointless observation that is not unlike claiming water is wet, isn't it? Lol!
    rattler2 wrote: »
    And this isn't EVE. Players aren't going to want to sit around for a 10 minute convoy. I hate to say it, but this community is more interested in shooting things, and shooting things quickly. Why else is Infected Space still popular despite being some of the oldest content in the game? Its quick, and has lots of targets.
    Pretty much.

    Most people don't play games to do mindless low level tasks outside of the starting areas, where it makes sense to do those things. They play games to be the big damn hero who saves the day. Most games abstract such low level things with systems like STOs admiralty and DOFFing systems. These sorts of things do exist in universe, and should be brought up, but most players don't want to do that sort of thing.

    Actually you two. -- If the games producers were happy with participation between episodic content? They likely wouldn't be doing everything they are, to try and keep numbers up. I think you missed that.

    Aside from that, I'm baffled as to how you got from A to.. whatever this is.. Most players feel they are accumulating stuff that has (at best) limited purpose; and that chasing the devs constantly shifting DPS goal posts, is not unlike trying to kiss your own rear. Modern gamers absorb such things very quickly, believe it or not.
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  • terranempire#7881 terranempire Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    And this isn't EVE. Players aren't going to want to sit around for a 10 minute convoy. I hate to say it, but this community is more interested in shooting things, and shooting things quickly. Why else is Infected Space still popular despite being some of the oldest content in the game? Its quick, and has lots of targets.
    Pretty much.

    Most people don't play games to do mindless low level tasks outside of the starting areas, where it makes sense to do those things. They play games to be the big damn hero who saves the day. Most games abstract such low level things with systems like STOs admiralty and DOFFing systems. These sorts of things do exist in universe, and should be brought up, but most players don't want to do that sort of thing.

    Have you guys never played SWG before? Some people enjoy doing the boring social tasks like being a entertainer to buff players while chatting or just sitting in a medical centre healing peoples injuries and even playing.... wait for it... Don't laugh.

    Playing moisture farmers like Uncle Owen
    450?cb=20120428164235

    BTW how is waiting in a 10min pve/pvp queue and playing a TFO or mission any different than grinding a task? How is blowing up the same stuff you did thousand times not mindless?​​
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    "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
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  • paladinrja#5247 paladinrja Member Posts: 155 Arc User
    edited April 2020

    Have you guys never played SWG before? Some people enjoy doing the boring social tasks like being a entertainer to buff players while chatting or just sitting in a medical centre healing peoples injuries and even playing.... wait for it... Don't laugh.

    Playing moisture farmers like Uncle Owen
    450?cb=20120428164235

    BTW how is waiting in a 10min pve/pvp queue and playing a TFO or mission any different than grinding a task? How is blowing up the same stuff you did thousand times not mindless?​​

    That's actually a good point. From a role playing perspective. You're a ship Capt. until you either decide to stay with the services, or transition to something else. Its not unheard of in Star Trek.

    The endgame represent sitting between episodic content, until you are called upon again. Or decide to stick your nose in due to some other reason? -- the reality of the end game as it currently stands, is ques; and while I enjoyed my startup at the Vlugata mine. Eventually I'd like to go my own way and develop my own mining interests to seek fortune that way.

    You along with some others "get it". I'm talking about 'transformation'. -- You've earnt your right to stick your hands into the dirt (as it were) and it'd be fantastic to be able to. Building a working farm or other interest that tasks you with tackling the environment is a monumental confrontation with adversity. Whether in a game or real life.

    Subnautica is actually an excellent example. In fact, my mains, Alien boff refers to planet 4645B as her place of origin.
    XBOX One GT: Paladinrja
  • terranempire#7881 terranempire Member Posts: 1,222 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    coldnapalm wrote: »

    Not that I disagree with the sentiment that the STO should not be a moisture farming sim...but did you seriously make the argument that Star Trek is a more blow em up IP than Star Wars?!?

    Honestly that's what Star Trek is now. It's on a quest to be everything else. BTW I am not saying STO should be farm sim or sandbox. I was just pointing out that not everyone thinks "it's dumb and boring".​​
    Post edited by terranempire#7881 on
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    "When diplomacy fails, there's only one alternative - violence. Force must be applied without apology. It's the Starfleet way." - Captain Janeway
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