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✯✯✯ STAR TREK PICARD ✯✯✯ (reactions and discussion WITH SPOILERS)

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  • joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 327 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    ryuranger wrote: »
    I do not know if anyone notice but the Vessels in Star Trek Picard Season Final Et In Arcadia Ego Part 2 looks like Vessels Straight out of Star Trek Online some looking like Avenger Class and Multipurpose Cruiser I think it was kinda cool and the Uniforms looks vary much like the 2400's Uniforms too just some minor details changed I think they a Treating Online as Cannon from what I am seeing in Star Trek Picard

    No. They really don't. The show ignores STOs entire backstory pig-3.gif​​

    As it should be.

    Even when STO's backstory, ultimately, makes more sense? The supernova deal with the JJ-Trek "Countdown" comics and the STO timeline made absolutely more sense than this rather disjointed mess we got in Picard. I've heard it expressed by some - including at least one person who has appeared in past Trek - that if Picard had the writers that TNG and DS9 had, it would have been a lot better. The writing... in a number of cases, both in this series and in Discovery, it reminds me of a guy who saw me in a Trek uniform (late DS9-era admiral's jacket) at a convention a couple years back who proceeded to blab at me for ten minutes about his Romulan empress fan fiction; I vaguely remember that he established her as being the daughter of Spock and the Romulan commander from "The Enterprise Incident".
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    "Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing."
    - Federation President Ra-ghoratreii, Khitomer Conference opening ceremony, 2293

    Real Join Date: October 2010
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    What "disjointed mess"? The supernova was mentioned briefly, as something everyone knew about; sure, it destroying a planet of a system light-years away was definitely strange, but when treaties forbid you from even going to investigate the mess, you're not going to include "wow, this sure was weird and in violation of the laws of physics" every single time you do a news story about the rescue efforts, especially when the focus of the story is supposed to be on the destruction of the Martian colonies and the Utopia Planitia shipyard and how that led the most famous captain in the Fleet to retire, not on Romulus or the Romulans in particular.

    You may recall that even in STO, nobody brought it up until the beginning of the Romulan Mystery arc, and even then the line of questioning was dropped until it was time for the player to investigate. Was that "disjointed" as well?
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    What "disjointed mess"? The supernova was mentioned briefly, as something everyone knew about; sure, it destroying a planet of a system light-years away was definitely strange, but when treaties forbid you from even going to investigate the mess, you're not going to include "wow, this sure was weird and in violation of the laws of physics" every single time you do a news story about the rescue efforts, especially when the focus of the story is supposed to be on the destruction of the Martian colonies and the Utopia Planitia shipyard and how that led the most famous captain in the Fleet to retire, not on Romulus or the Romulans in particular.

    You may recall that even in STO, nobody brought it up until the beginning of the Romulan Mystery arc, and even then the line of questioning was dropped until it was time for the player to investigate. Was that "disjointed" as well?

    In the case of STO, the Hobus supernova was one thing among many and the Romulans were putting up a false front of business as usual, so things like the increasing agitation in the Klingon empire made a reasonable distraction so it does not seem weird that the Federation did not do more.

    And then later the Klingons actively go to war with the Federation and the RSE quietly sitting behind its neutral zone fence in the corner tearing itself apart internally became little more than something to keep half an eye on while they dealt with the Klingons and all the other fires that were "spontaneously" springing up even before that war and needed attention before they had the chance to grow out of control. Federation intelligence, sensitized as it was to infiltration after the incidents in TNG and DS9, was probably going crazy chasing leads in all directions for instance.

    PIC, on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to establish that the alpha/beta (and to an extent gamma) quadrants have anything at all going on except the supernova, the failed evacuation, and the "synth rebellion", so the same lack of Federation involvement (beyond banning synths) after Mars stands out like a sore thumb. It is like a bad novel adaptation where the screenwriter tried to follow a single thread of a complex story but failed to account for the other threads impact and stripped away too much so plausibility suffered (there are a lot of movies and other series which suffer from that so it is not something unique to CBS or Star Trek).

  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    Wait, the United Federation of Planets is (in some estimates) as much as 8000 lightyears across, had recently concluded a pretty major war with the major power of the Gamma Quadrant, and is surrounded by hostile powers ranging from the Klingons to the Tzenkethi - and you need to be told there's more than one thing happening in the galaxy??
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Wait, the United Federation of Planets is (in some estimates) as much as 8000 lightyears across, had recently concluded a pretty major war with the major power of the Gamma Quadrant, and is surrounded by hostile powers ranging from the Klingons to the Tzenkethi - and you need to be told there's more than one thing happening in the galaxy??

    It is effective world building. Star Trek has always been bad at this. If it is not relevant to the current story, then it is ignored.
  • joshmauljoshmaul Member Posts: 327 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Wait, the United Federation of Planets is (in some estimates) as much as 8000 lightyears across, had recently concluded a pretty major war with the major power of the Gamma Quadrant, and is surrounded by hostile powers ranging from the Klingons to the Tzenkethi - and you need to be told there's more than one thing happening in the galaxy??

    Minor nitpick: Unless something has changed between DS9 and Nemesis, the Klingons were Federation allies. But again, that goes to the point of world building - this series covers a very limited frame of reference (which is understandable) and events with almost no context (which is not). There are incredible glaring holes in the backstory that the showrunners not only make no effort to explain, but make no effort to hide. Then again, perhaps we should not be surprised, given that from JJ onward, none of this was meant for the existing fandom, who would actually be able to point things like this out.
    i2G6X0u.jpg
    "Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing."
    - Federation President Ra-ghoratreii, Khitomer Conference opening ceremony, 2293

    Real Join Date: October 2010
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 2,932 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > In the case of STO, the Hobus supernova was one thing among many and the Romulans were putting up a false front of business as usual, so things like the increasing agitation in the Klingon empire made a reasonable distraction so it does not seem weird that the Federation did not do more.
    >
    > And then later the Klingons actively go to war with the Federation and the RSE quietly sitting behind its neutral zone fence in the corner tearing itself apart internally became little more than something to keep half an eye on while they dealt with the Klingons and all the other fires that were "spontaneously" springing up even before that war and needed attention before they had the chance to grow out of control. Federation intelligence, sensitized as it was to infiltration after the incidents in TNG and DS9, was probably going crazy chasing leads in all directions for instance.
    >
    > PIC, on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to establish that the alpha/beta (and to an extent gamma) quadrants have anything at all going on except the supernova, the failed evacuation, and the "synth rebellion", so the same lack of Federation involvement (beyond banning synths) after Mars stands out like a sore thumb. It is like a bad novel adaptation where the screenwriter tried to follow a single thread of a complex story but failed to account for the other threads impact and stripped away too much so plausibility suffered (there are a lot of movies and other series which suffer from that so it is not something unique to CBS or Star Trek).

    This is false. Anything not related to the story does need to be there. Just because you want to know what the Klingons and Ferengi are doing during the events of the story isn’t a failing of the writers or plot holes. That’s like claiming The Dark Knight is a poorly written movie because it didn’t tell us what The Flash was doing during the events of the movie.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    joshmaul wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    Wait, the United Federation of Planets is (in some estimates) as much as 8000 lightyears across, had recently concluded a pretty major war with the major power of the Gamma Quadrant, and is surrounded by hostile powers ranging from the Klingons to the Tzenkethi - and you need to be told there's more than one thing happening in the galaxy??

    Minor nitpick: Unless something has changed between DS9 and Nemesis, the Klingons were Federation allies.
    The Klingons are "allies". Remember how "allied" they were during much of DS9? Hell, during fairly large parts of TNG? Just because they're not openly at war with the Federation as a whole doesn't mean that some "rogue" Houses aren't raiding border worlds.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    khan5000 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > In the case of STO, the Hobus supernova was one thing among many and the Romulans were putting up a false front of business as usual, so things like the increasing agitation in the Klingon empire made a reasonable distraction so it does not seem weird that the Federation did not do more.
    >
    > And then later the Klingons actively go to war with the Federation and the RSE quietly sitting behind its neutral zone fence in the corner tearing itself apart internally became little more than something to keep half an eye on while they dealt with the Klingons and all the other fires that were "spontaneously" springing up even before that war and needed attention before they had the chance to grow out of control. Federation intelligence, sensitized as it was to infiltration after the incidents in TNG and DS9, was probably going crazy chasing leads in all directions for instance.
    >
    > PIC, on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to establish that the alpha/beta (and to an extent gamma) quadrants have anything at all going on except the supernova, the failed evacuation, and the "synth rebellion", so the same lack of Federation involvement (beyond banning synths) after Mars stands out like a sore thumb. It is like a bad novel adaptation where the screenwriter tried to follow a single thread of a complex story but failed to account for the other threads impact and stripped away too much so plausibility suffered (there are a lot of movies and other series which suffer from that so it is not something unique to CBS or Star Trek).

    This is false. Anything not related to the story does need to be there. Just because you want to know what the Klingons and Ferengi are doing during the events of the story isn’t a failing of the writers or plot holes. That’s like claiming The Dark Knight is a poorly written movie because it didn’t tell us what The Flash was doing during the events of the movie.

    Those are silly exaggerated examples that totally miss the point. Sure, those things do not have to be in foreground, or even the background, but something has to be there to give the illusion that the story is set in a real place and is not just the main storyline hanging out in limbo by itself.

    Making a fictional setting seem vibrant and real is actually more important than the main storylines themselves, and DSC fell a bit flat in that, and apparently PIC did not do any better (and maybe even worse).
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    khan5000 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > In the case of STO, the Hobus supernova was one thing among many and the Romulans were putting up a false front of business as usual, so things like the increasing agitation in the Klingon empire made a reasonable distraction so it does not seem weird that the Federation did not do more.
    >
    > And then later the Klingons actively go to war with the Federation and the RSE quietly sitting behind its neutral zone fence in the corner tearing itself apart internally became little more than something to keep half an eye on while they dealt with the Klingons and all the other fires that were "spontaneously" springing up even before that war and needed attention before they had the chance to grow out of control. Federation intelligence, sensitized as it was to infiltration after the incidents in TNG and DS9, was probably going crazy chasing leads in all directions for instance.
    >
    > PIC, on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to establish that the alpha/beta (and to an extent gamma) quadrants have anything at all going on except the supernova, the failed evacuation, and the "synth rebellion", so the same lack of Federation involvement (beyond banning synths) after Mars stands out like a sore thumb. It is like a bad novel adaptation where the screenwriter tried to follow a single thread of a complex story but failed to account for the other threads impact and stripped away too much so plausibility suffered (there are a lot of movies and other series which suffer from that so it is not something unique to CBS or Star Trek).

    This is false. Anything not related to the story does need to be there. Just because you want to know what the Klingons and Ferengi are doing during the events of the story isn’t a failing of the writers or plot holes. That’s like claiming The Dark Knight is a poorly written movie because it didn’t tell us what The Flash was doing during the events of the movie.

    Those are silly exaggerated examples that totally miss the point. Sure, those things do not have to be in foreground, or even the background, but something has to be there to give the illusion that the story is set in a real place and is not just the main storyline hanging out in limbo by itself.

    Making a fictional setting seem vibrant and real is actually more important than the main storylines themselves, and DSC fell a bit flat in that, and apparently PIC did not do any better (and maybe even worse).

    except you don't need to explain everything. I dunno how old you are, but consider Star Wars, we went over TWENTY FIVE YEARS only knowing the clone wars was some conflict Obi-wan and anakin skywalker fought in. it was mentioned once, ONCE and never mentioned again until attack of the clones came out.

    I get it, some people are used to "knowing everything about star trek" and don't enjoy being back in a situation where we don't know everything.

    that's... just how things go.

    Let's flash back top the first ten episodes of TNG and how much we knew about the galaxy in that?

    first of all, when TNG came out, our grand total of trek canon was TOS, TAS, and Star treks 1-4.

    The first ten episodes where..

    Encounter at Farpoint
    The Naked Now
    Code of Honor
    Where no one has gone before
    Lonely Among us
    Justice
    The Battle
    Hide and Q


    we didn't see the romulans or the Klingons in this, in fact Worf being on the bridge had a lot of implications given the last time we saw a Klingon it blew up the original enterprise in trek.. and now one was on the enterprise? what was the story there. we didn't hear about for another ten episodes when Heart of Glory aired.

    and we didn;t learn about the klingon empire in all one big chunk, it came slowly over 2 bloody series. star trek is a TV drama, it's not a RPG booklet.
    the world will be built as nesscary, in fact doing too much world building unnesscarily is actually a BAD thing as it can limit the writers because it would tie their hands.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > In the case of STO, the Hobus supernova was one thing among many and the Romulans were putting up a false front of business as usual, so things like the increasing agitation in the Klingon empire made a reasonable distraction so it does not seem weird that the Federation did not do more.
    >
    > And then later the Klingons actively go to war with the Federation and the RSE quietly sitting behind its neutral zone fence in the corner tearing itself apart internally became little more than something to keep half an eye on while they dealt with the Klingons and all the other fires that were "spontaneously" springing up even before that war and needed attention before they had the chance to grow out of control. Federation intelligence, sensitized as it was to infiltration after the incidents in TNG and DS9, was probably going crazy chasing leads in all directions for instance.
    >
    > PIC, on the other hand, makes no effort whatsoever to establish that the alpha/beta (and to an extent gamma) quadrants have anything at all going on except the supernova, the failed evacuation, and the "synth rebellion", so the same lack of Federation involvement (beyond banning synths) after Mars stands out like a sore thumb. It is like a bad novel adaptation where the screenwriter tried to follow a single thread of a complex story but failed to account for the other threads impact and stripped away too much so plausibility suffered (there are a lot of movies and other series which suffer from that so it is not something unique to CBS or Star Trek).

    This is false. Anything not related to the story does need to be there. Just because you want to know what the Klingons and Ferengi are doing during the events of the story isn’t a failing of the writers or plot holes. That’s like claiming The Dark Knight is a poorly written movie because it didn’t tell us what The Flash was doing during the events of the movie.

    Those are silly exaggerated examples that totally miss the point. Sure, those things do not have to be in foreground, or even the background, but something has to be there to give the illusion that the story is set in a real place and is not just the main storyline hanging out in limbo by itself.

    Making a fictional setting seem vibrant and real is actually more important than the main storylines themselves, and DSC fell a bit flat in that, and apparently PIC did not do any better (and maybe even worse).

    except you don't need to explain everything. I dunno how old you are, but consider Star Wars, we went over TWENTY FIVE YEARS only knowing the clone wars was some conflict Obi-wan and anakin skywalker fought in. it was mentioned once, ONCE and never mentioned again until attack of the clones came out.

    I get it, some people are used to "knowing everything about star trek" and don't enjoy being back in a situation where we don't know everything.

    that's... just how things go.

    Let's flash back top the first ten episodes of TNG and how much we knew about the galaxy in that?

    first of all, when TNG came out, our grand total of trek canon was TOS, TAS, and Star treks 1-4.

    The first ten episodes where..

    Encounter at Farpoint
    The Naked Now
    Code of Honor
    Where no one has gone before
    Lonely Among us
    Justice
    The Battle
    Hide and Q


    we didn't see the romulans or the Klingons in this, in fact Worf being on the bridge had a lot of implications given the last time we saw a Klingon it blew up the original enterprise in trek.. and now one was on the enterprise? what was the story there. we didn't hear about for another ten episodes when Heart of Glory aired.

    and we didn;t learn about the klingon empire in all one big chunk, it came slowly over 2 bloody series. star trek is a TV drama, it's not a RPG booklet.
    the world will be built as nesscary, in fact doing too much world building unnesscarily is actually a BAD thing as it can limit the writers because it would tie their hands.


    That is not the point either. I did not say they should have included dossiers on the various old factions or any other infodump as some kind of fanservice. What I said was that they needed something to make it seem they were in a real place where more than one thing happens at a time. That is especially important to pay attention to in a narrow-format serial since it is probably the greatest weakness of that storytelling style.

    They don't have to go haring off on tangents, give long expositions, or anything else that takes significant time away from the main story, just adding a few people busy in the background in a few key scenes (mostly in HQ locations or a brief "off camera emergency" interruption of a videocall and the like) and a few oblique references in throwaway dialog to other things going on would do if they did it right. The weird part is that Chabon is usually very good at doing that layered, living world feeling yet PIC seems to be mostly lacking it.

  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    like a mention of a alien race we'd not seen since ST:TAS raiding an area?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    I get it, some people are used to "knowing everything about star trek" and don't enjoy being back in a situation where we don't know everything.
    As if we know all of the things now...
    Let's flash back top the first ten episodes of TNG and how much we knew about the galaxy in that?

    first of all, when TNG came out, our grand total of trek canon was TOS, TAS, and Star treks 1-4.

    The first ten episodes where..

    Encounter at Farpoint
    Wait what? The Cnidarians are a race capable of doing THAT??!? How did the Bandi capture them??? Also what do the Cnidarians actually want?
    The Naked Now
    When Yar and Data start talking about Yar's past, she mentions that the world she grew up on was utterly horrible and basically run by criminals. Why does a Human colony live in conditions that make Mad Max seem safe???
    Code of Honor
    How is it that the Ligonians(a non Federation race) have the only known vaccine for Anchilles fever(which is currently affecting a Federation colony)?
    Where no one has gone before
    So, there's an entire race of people like the Traveler? Also he makes a cryptic comment about how his race has a different concept of time than the Feds do... Wait.. WHEN is he from then?
    Lonely Among us
    Soo.. sentient, non-corporeal, and potentially very dangerous species... Why were they never seen again? Also.. the cloud they live in can travel at Warp???
    Justice
    Where did the Edo Guardian come from, and why? Their society feels very... "Truman Show" in that the computer tells them all what to do. Are they it's creation? Also why did the Feds make contact with this race?
    The Battle
    Thoughtmakers are illegal, but something common enough that Kazago recognizes it on sight. Who invented them and why? It's seemingly exotic tech to Feds but not Ferengi?
    Hide and Q
    Why was Q there? He leaves because the OTHER Q drag him off the ship kicking and screaming... whaattt???!!?!??

    I feel as though I understand Star Trek less than before I compiled that list. O_o'
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  • yistaanyistaan Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    The magical faster than light Romulan supernova from Star Trek Online makes more sense than Picard, because otherwise Spock's plan to turn the supernova into a black hole would be nonsensical if he were destroying Romulus' sun. Even Chabon has admitted this is an inconsistency they are now aware of, as I pointed it out on his instagram and he responded with #TrekImponderables .

    Thankfully, the mention of the "Romulan sun" in the Picard premiere was so passing that they could just write it off as the character generalizing any star in Romulan space as the "Romulan sun".

    If they discuss the supernova further in canon, they'll either have to go with STO's magical FTL Hobus supernova or, I'm guessing, they'll say the Romulan system was a binary system with only one sun of two going supernova, thus Spock turning that sun into a black hole wouldn't doom Romulus.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    yistaan wrote: »
    The magical faster than light Romulan supernova from Star Trek Online makes more sense than Picard, because otherwise Spock's plan to turn the supernova into a black hole would be nonsensical if he were destroying Romulus' sun. Even Chabon has admitted this is an inconsistency they are now aware of, as I pointed it out on his instagram and he responded with #TrekImponderables .

    Thankfully, the mention of the "Romulan sun" in the Picard premiere was so passing that they could just write it off as the character generalizing any star in Romulan space as the "Romulan sun".

    If they discuss the supernova further in canon, they'll either have to go with STO's magical FTL Hobus supernova or, I'm guessing, they'll say the Romulan system was a binary system with only one sun of two going supernova, thus Spock turning that sun into a black hole wouldn't doom Romulus.

    It has to be a magical FTL supernova since the Romulans would have years to prepare if it was a standard supernova happening in a neighboring star system. If Alpha Centauri went supernova, we would be able to see some indications of it going supernova, but as soon as we saw the supernova we would be hit by a massive EM wave that would likely wipe out all of our electronics and some other problems. The more dire problem is the remnants of the Alpha Centauri system coming at us at relativistic velocities. The only way for it to be a standard supernova and still be a major crisis for the Romulans is if the Romulus star went supernova which still is problematic due to the relatively young age of their star.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    There's also the fact that Romulan physiology implies that their home sun is a G-type like the Sun, or one of the dimmer F-types at most - and those stars simply don't go supernova, they lack the mass. It would be easier to believe in the FTL supernova, as we know that in Trek things that access subspace can go much faster than mere light.

    Fortunately, PIC made no attempt to explain the issue, merely noting that it happened. As we've been told Kurtzman and company consulted with the STO devs quite a bit, I would tend to assume they'll be using the STO explanation, but nobody will be able to get to Hobus to check it out because of the existing Romulan forces still in the region (after all, the player character is the one who gets to find out what happened).
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    There's also the fact that Romulan physiology implies that their home sun is a G-type like the Sun, or one of the dimmer F-types at most - and those stars simply don't go supernova, they lack the mass. It would be easier to believe in the FTL supernova, as we know that in Trek things that access subspace can go much faster than mere light.

    Fortunately, PIC made no attempt to explain the issue, merely noting that it happened. As we've been told Kurtzman and company consulted with the STO devs quite a bit, I would tend to assume they'll be using the STO explanation, but nobody will be able to get to Hobus to check it out because of the existing Romulan forces still in the region (after all, the player character is the one who gets to find out what happened).

    It would likely be a variation of the STO explanation since I extremely doubt that Picard will blame it on

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,230 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    There's also the fact that Romulan physiology implies that their home sun is a G-type like the Sun, or one of the dimmer F-types at most - and those stars simply don't go supernova, they lack the mass.
    Yeah, but Romulans are originally from Vulcan and migrated to Romulus.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    There's also the fact that Romulan physiology implies that their home sun is a G-type like the Sun, or one of the dimmer F-types at most - and those stars simply don't go supernova, they lack the mass.
    Yeah, but Romulans are originally from Vulcan and migrated to Romulus.
    They still couldn't live under the sort of star that can go supernova - it wouldn't support a Vulcanoid planet. Same reason why we don't bother looking for Earth-sized planets orbiting B-type stars, because they wouldn't do us any good anyway. And in order to go supernova, the star not only has to be much more massive than the Sun, but also needs to have left the main sequence. So no, the Romulans wouldn't have settled on a planet orbiting such a star, not if they had the resources needed to mount interstellar colonization expeditions in the first place. (Niven's Known Space is the only series I know of with humans occupying grossly unsuitable planets, and in each case it was because they didn't have FTL yet - ramscoop-powered robot probes were dispatched to likely stars with instructions to maser a message to Earth if they found a habitable spot. Then one-way colony "slowship" were dispatched, with colonists in suspended animation, and only then did they find out that the spot was either small, like Plateau with its 40 square miles atop Mt. Lookitthat, or seasonal, like We Made It with its summer and winter 200-mph surface winds. After they bought the hyperdrive shunt from the Outsiders, they stopped colonizing marginal worlds and started going to places like Down.)
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    There's also the fact that Romulan physiology implies that their home sun is a G-type like the Sun, or one of the dimmer F-types at most - and those stars simply don't go supernova, they lack the mass.
    Yeah, but Romulans are originally from Vulcan and migrated to Romulus.
    They still couldn't live under the sort of star that can go supernova - it wouldn't support a Vulcanoid planet. Same reason why we don't bother looking for Earth-sized planets orbiting B-type stars, because they wouldn't do us any good anyway. And in order to go supernova, the star not only has to be much more massive than the Sun, but also needs to have left the main sequence. So no, the Romulans wouldn't have settled on a planet orbiting such a star, not if they had the resources needed to mount interstellar colonization expeditions in the first place. (Niven's Known Space is the only series I know of with humans occupying grossly unsuitable planets, and in each case it was because they didn't have FTL yet - ramscoop-powered robot probes were dispatched to likely stars with instructions to maser a message to Earth if they found a habitable spot. Then one-way colony "slowship" were dispatched, with colonists in suspended animation, and only then did they find out that the spot was either small, like Plateau with its 40 square miles atop Mt. Lookitthat, or seasonal, like We Made It with its summer and winter 200-mph surface winds. After they bought the hyperdrive shunt from the Outsiders, they stopped colonizing marginal worlds and started going to places like Down.)

    The Romulans could not live with that kind of star as their primary, but they could very well live around an F, G, or K that is in a distant binary system (those can range out to lightweeks or lightmonths between the stars) which contains a massive enough star to supernova. For example, if Alpha Centauri were to mysteriously explode the light from it would take about 76 days to reach its binary companion star Proxima Centauri.

    With that setup not only would the timing would work out well without even having to resort to FTL explosions of some sort, it could also have been a good allegory about the hot current issue of government controlled science.

    For example, the party line could have been that the big hot main star of the system was definitely going to be they type that skips the supernova stage and quietly slips into the black hole stage, and any scientists who said otherwise were muzzled by the state to avoid "unnecessary panic" or whatever, over time they could have started believing their own propaganda and then when it blew up in their faces they were ill-prepared to deal with it and the people across the empire lost confidence in the government with set off a wave of fragmentation, power struggles, and perhaps even rebellions. It is a classic, but they chose to do the silly "supernova is eating the empire" thing instead.
  • mneme0mneme0 Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    The Romulans could not live with that kind of star as their primary, but they could very well live around an F, G, or K that is in a distant binary system (those can range out to lightweeks or lightmonths between the stars) which contains a massive enough star to supernova.

    Star Trek references numerous astrophysically... unlikely... stars as hosting inhabited systems.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    even if they went with star charts (again) and made romulus a binary system, the system's stars are M class (which is a red dwarf) and K class (which isn't given a proper classification, but given it was located in between class M and class G - which is yellow dwarfs like sol - one would assume K class stars are also dwarf stars) - neither of which is big enough to supernova​​
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 588 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    There's also the fact that Romulan physiology implies that their home sun is a G-type like the Sun, or one of the dimmer F-types at most - and those stars simply don't go supernova, they lack the mass.
    Yeah, but Romulans are originally from Vulcan and migrated to Romulus.
    They still couldn't live under the sort of star that can go supernova - it wouldn't support a Vulcanoid planet. Same reason why we don't bother looking for Earth-sized planets orbiting B-type stars, because they wouldn't do us any good anyway. And in order to go supernova, the star not only has to be much more massive than the Sun, but also needs to have left the main sequence. So no, the Romulans wouldn't have settled on a planet orbiting such a star, not if they had the resources needed to mount interstellar colonization expeditions in the first place. (Niven's Known Space is the only series I know of with humans occupying grossly unsuitable planets, and in each case it was because they didn't have FTL yet - ramscoop-powered robot probes were dispatched to likely stars with instructions to maser a message to Earth if they found a habitable spot. Then one-way colony "slowship" were dispatched, with colonists in suspended animation, and only then did they find out that the spot was either small, like Plateau with its 40 square miles atop Mt. Lookitthat, or seasonal, like We Made It with its summer and winter 200-mph surface winds. After they bought the hyperdrive shunt from the Outsiders, they stopped colonizing marginal worlds and started going to places like Down.)

    The Romulans could not live with that kind of star as their primary, but they could very well live around an F, G, or K that is in a distant binary system (those can range out to lightweeks or lightmonths between the stars) which contains a massive enough star to supernova. For example, if Alpha Centauri were to mysteriously explode the light from it would take about 76 days to reach its binary companion star Proxima Centauri.

    With that setup not only would the timing would work out well without even having to resort to FTL explosions of some sort, it could also have been a good allegory about the hot current issue of government controlled science.

    For example, the party line could have been that the big hot main star of the system was definitely going to be they type that skips the supernova stage and quietly slips into the black hole stage, and any scientists who said otherwise were muzzled by the state to avoid "unnecessary panic" or whatever, over time they could have started believing their own propaganda and then when it blew up in their faces they were ill-prepared to deal with it and the people across the empire lost confidence in the government with set off a wave of fragmentation, power struggles, and perhaps even rebellions. It is a classic, but they chose to do the silly "supernova is eating the empire" thing instead.

    Funny you mention that, the novel outright has the romulans muzzling scientists.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    K-type stars are popularly referred to as "orange dwarfs", and include such notable examples as Alpha Centauri B, Epsilon Indi, and Sigma Draconis. The mnemonic I was taught in astronomy classes was "Oh, Be A Fine Girl (or Guy, depending), Kiss Me Now", for the range from O-type blue-white stars down to N-type brown dwarfs.

    It's true that Trek has chosen, ah, unlikely stars from time to time, which is probably why the nomenclature used in TNG and later didn't match to any known systems. Gamma Trianguli, for instance, which I unwittingly repurposed in one of my Ten Forward stories using its true nature, is an A-type star about 2.7 times as massive as the Sun, and rotates so rapidly that rather than any planets it's still surrounded by a disc of rocky debris. In TOS:"The Apple", however, it hosts the M-class planet Gamma Trianguli VI, an Edenic world held in developmental stasis by an ancient computer posing as a god.

    This is unrelated to discussions of Romulus, as to the best of my knowledge there has never been an attempt to assign that system a real-world stellar reference - unlike, say, Vulcan, which is supposed to orbit in the 40 Eridani trinary system. (If we assume the large world visible in some Vulcan sky shots is a gas giant which Vulcan itself orbits, that would make it the largest moon of 40 Eridani Ab, an identified gas-giant planet. This would, of course, fit in with Spock's statement in TOS:"The Man Trap" that "Vulcan has no moon" - it can't very well have a moon if it is a moon, now can it?)
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    well, from what we see of the star at the beginning of nemesis, romulus' star appears to be a yellow dwarf - just like earth's​​
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,632 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    well, from what we see of the star at the beginning of nemesis, romulus' star appears to be a yellow dwarf - just like earth's​​

    Actually from the visuals Romulus's sun could be F, G, or K since they are shadings and not vivid primary color differences. It is more like the difference between cool white and warm white light bulbs than it is distinct colors like Christmas tree lights. In fact, from the ground the atmospheric effect (the way noon sun and evening sun have different colors on Earth) would probably drown out the difference. The difference between an A and an M (or either of them and a G) would most likely be obvious even with the atmosphere effect though so it is almost certainly one of the first three.

    Vulcan's immediate primary is a K class star and they show the sky as blue some of the time (probably around noon) and various redish shades at other times for instance. Their "morning" and "evening" skies probably last for more of the day than they do on Earth and they may even have a slightly "warmer" tone at noon. Using that logic an F type star would probably result in more blue skies over the course of the day and a slightly "colder" shade at noon than Earth has. And of course a lot of it would depend on how much dust there is in the atmosphere at any given time and other atmospheric factors.

    One interesting thing is that the 40 Eridani trinary system has an M4 flare star as one of its stars which would rather neatly explain the need for the Vulcan inner eyelid.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    edited April 2020
    One interesting thing is that the 40 Eridani trinary system has an M4 flare star as one of its stars which would rather neatly explain the need for the Vulcan inner eyelid.
    Fortunately, that star orbits at a sufficient distance that the flares, while annoyingly bright, would not regularly scrub the planet bare of life - one of the reasons the super-earth orbiting Proxima Centauri is a poor candidate for extraterrestrial life (along with the fact that it's probably tidally locked to its primary, which isn't really conducive to the whole "life" thing outside the shadow meridian).
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 35,849 Arc User
    proxima centauri can't support humanoid life anyway - its entire atmosphere is saturated with a toxic substance that's fatal to human life...at least until it's purged from the planet by the nue-guyen​​
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    A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
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    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,290 Arc User
    Also, I'd have to ascribe the reddish tinge to sand and dust suspended in the atmosphere - the blue part has to do with the diffraction index of oxygen. Just about any world habitable to humans will have a blue sky, of one shade or another. Heck, even Mars' sky is blue, when the wind is calm and the sand is down.
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