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✯✯✯ STAR TREK PICARD ✯✯✯ (reactions and discussion WITH SPOILERS)

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    ltminns wrote: »
    Note that the Treaty of Algeron was mentioned, which would indicate it is still in force. Unless parts of it were scrapped, that would seem to still limit Federation use of Cloaks on ships. This is for all those that have been stating in other Threads that the Treaty was null and void and full steam ahead on Cloaks, and yadda, yadda, yadda.

    Which could mean some version of the RSE still exists
    Your pain runs deep.
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  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    truewarper wrote: »
    If they do have a Second Season, they better have someone who knows how to remove Plot Holes in Picard. If I had a car, al my axles would be broken. :p
    Nobody's named these "plot holes" yet. What exactly are they? A representative sample would do.

    Jon,

    I dig that you enjoyed it. I liked the series more than disliked it too. And agree that if we accept Somtaawkhar's definition of "plot hole" than there probably aren't any. But we would have to be very generous to ignore all the drama and surprises that seemed to come out of left field in Picard.

    Critical viewing reveals a lot of points that did not feel "authentic" to me. Maybe that is a better term than "plot holes." Many points felt very contrived. But I have only watched 2 of the episodes more than once. I have not seen the conclusion. Although, I have read enough about it here to have a strong sense of what it entails.

    I think other people are seeing something fake, inauthentic, or contrived that has them saying--"weak writing" or "plot holes." I would have to read the script and go over the episodes beat-by-beat to really talk about the problems at great length. I would be interested in doing that at some point.

    But for now. Here is a Wired article that talks about some of the issues. You are welcome to read the whole article and dismiss their points as you see fit. I would happily read your argument. But I tend to agree with their assessment, although it is more of an "unrepresentative sample" perhaps.
    Andy Vandervell: The final episode was a microcosm of the whole series, really. It was way too easy for Narek to convince Raffi and Rios to help him. It was way too easy for Dr. Jurati to spring Picard. They invented a magic story gadget to fix the ship and then create projections to fool the Romulans. Soji’s journey from confused Android to genocidal hatred of "organics" was never earned.

    Basically, it felt like they had a bunch of objectives to reach and how they got there didn’t really matter. And one of those objectives, of course, was ending the show with Picard and his crew together, ready to go on cool space adventures.

    https://www.wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review
    Post edited by qultuq on
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    qultuq wrote: »
    But we would have to be very generous to ignore all the drama and surprises that seemed to come out of left field in Picard.
    Such as? This still just amounts to "there's plot holes, but I wont say what they are!"

    No, Sir, that is reductio ad absurdum. Please play again.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    But if you want. I will talk about an "inauthentic scene" right. I can talk about that probably without having the argument reduced to a "plot hole" because it is not necessarily a logical inconsistency. It is just a whole 10 minutes of a show which feel very artificial.

    So Soji meets Rios and he flips out and sits in his cabin, presumably drinking, although we are only to made to assume that by the empty bottle. Right. Here we are asked to emotionally identify with Rios. And unlike many of these New-Trek scenes. He is not crying. That is good. There are other ways to show emotional distress that we should embrace.

    And Rafi cannot get to him, but pieces the problem together through his EM system. Which is a cool Star Trek idea. No problem there. But Rios is still in some denial about his captains death. His preclusion to drink was only established by the hung over Spanish- speaking hollogram--which honestly is more stereotypical about "Mexicans" than dependent on good writing.

    Rios' response seems completely alien because we have no indicators that he would go to withdrawal as a coping mechanism. And that coping is relatively foreign to Star Trek. Is that good? I don't know. Is it interesting--certainly. Was it emotionally receptive--I do not think so. Is that a "plot hole" you would say no. There is no argument. So what kind of example would you prefer?

    I agreed that most of the problems I have with Picard are not "plot holes" but questions of aesthetics, implications, and yes there are some big dangling threads to me...

    If Maddox was essential to finding more. How did we go from he was discovered, to he is dead, to so what... to he is some father figure with Soong. That is really weird to me. And maybe watching closer or listing to your theories will clarify that. I don't know.

    So I put forward a lot of problems with Picard as I see them. Again, you are welcome to dismiss them with one sentence as you see fit.
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User

    This is exactly the kind of thing I mean. People saying outright bizarre things like "There was no previous indication Rios would go to drinking beyond the hologram!" when literally one of the first two things we see about him is that he drinks.

    Cool. Do you think the Maddox plot was acceptable. How about the criticisms in the Wired article? I am interested in hearing your insights.
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    truewarper wrote: »
    If they do have a Second Season, they better have someone who knows how to remove Plot Holes in Picard. If I had a car, al my axles would be broken. :p
    Nobody's named these "plot holes" yet. What exactly are they? A representative sample would do.

    Sir, my reference was a joke on the theme. Reduce thy ire to impulse, if you may.

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  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 644 Arc User
    nrobbiec wrote: »
    Why does the censor on these forums block out a term for a male homosexual. That's actually kind of offensive.
    Because the term is near universally used only as an insult

    I've never seen the 'G' word used as an insult, only the three letter 'F' word. Now when I was young people would occasionally use the 'G' word like so:

    Person 1: "I got cut from the team!"
    Person 2: "That's ***!"

    However, I haven't heard anyone say that kind of idiotic thing since I was in High School, and I graduated sixteen years ago in 2004. Censoring the 'G' word is outdated and offensive imo, akin to pretending homosexual men don't exist at all.

    Anyway, back on topic the only other things that annoyed me about the finale were that Narek just disappears halfway through with no explanation for what his ultimate fate was, Sutra had a very anti-climactic ending, and Jurati suddenly doesn't have to face the consequences for murdering Maddox and gets to fly off free with Rios??

    Allot of it is cultural to be honest. In the UK the word "foxtrot alpha golf" actualy means a cigarette and where I come from the word "foxtrot alpha golf golf oscar tango" is a food, however it's not exactly a delicacy more poor people's food from the bad old days but some folks still eat them.

    I do agree the lack of consequence for all involved is jarring and the lack of conclusion for Narek or the borg cube is annoying.

    Also, not being funny, but they had over 200 Romulan warships and NOBODY saw the federation fleet coming on long range sensors?

  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    qultuq wrote: »
    His preclusion to drink was only established by the hung over Spanish- speaking hollogram--which honestly is more stereotypical about "Mexicans" than dependent on good writing.
    1) That was Portuguese, commonly spoken in South America. (The game he was playing with the soccer ball is also South American - it's designed for one person to play in a limited area.)

    2) The stereotype you're thinking of is Irish or Russian, not Mexican. (The Mexican stereotype is lazy and wearing a sombrero, not drunken.)

    Seems to me the only issues here are yours.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    truewarper wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    truewarper wrote: »
    If they do have a Second Season, they better have someone who knows how to remove Plot Holes in Picard. If I had a car, al my axles would be broken. :p
    Nobody's named these "plot holes" yet. What exactly are they? A representative sample would do.

    Sir, my reference was a joke on the theme. Reduce thy ire to impulse, if you may.

    A joke... is a story with a humorous climax.
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    I rewatched Redemption last night, some in the Federation were racist during TNG times so it's not unrealistic to see that they became where we saw them at the start of this series.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    Well, not my type of tea in the end, i wish them good luck with the second season.
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  • sennahcheribsennahcherib Member Posts: 2,823 Arc User
    well, after thinking a lot of this tv show, and after watching some others; I have to change my judgment.

    First of all, Star Trek Picard is not a bad tv show, but it is not going to stay a long time in my memory. it is not even in my top 10.
    The characters are a little bit empty. Excepted 2 of them, they lack of charisma, and are not interesting at all. The CG work is good, but not spectacular.
    The big disappointment for me comes from the story itself which seems to have been rushed to finish the season. At least, 2 seasons would have been necessary to develop everything (Maddox's life, Soji's life and why she left the planet etc). There is also the fact that Soji want to be only a basic human, instead of accept her true nature and complete the call of the Super synths. Oh's behavior is strange, she has a "sacred" mission, and finally she accepts to do nothing; it is really weird.

    The overall tone of the show is childish, and lack definitely depth.

    Star trek Picard is an average tv show, nothing more, nothing less. Something is missing to make this tv show an excellent one. Maybe the screenwriters should be replaced or it is even all the star trek franchise which needs a total rethinking. well! I don't know.

    As much Westworld is in my top ten, and will remain so, but I have already forgotten Star Trek Picard. I'm not even waiting for the next season.

  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.

    There is a slight difference between the genetic engineering ban and the synth ban. The genetic engineering ban was the result of a bunch of genetically engineered humans trying to take over Earth and a few hundred years in the future had a good genetically engineered human. Genetic engineering was still allowed in the Federation to fix genetic problems like Down Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis, and Sickle Cell Anemia. The synth ban had a good synthetic and a couple of decades later had a rebellion with a bunch of mediocre synths that didn't have the mental capacity to rebel without external help.
  • truewarpertruewarper Member Posts: 928 Arc User
    well, after thinking a lot of this tv show, and after watching some others; I have to change my judgment.

    First of all, Star Trek Picard is not a bad tv show, but it is not going to stay a long time in my memory. it is not even in my top 10.
    The characters are a little bit empty. Excepted 2 of them, they lack of charisma, and are not interesting at all. The CG work is good, but not spectacular.
    The big disappointment for me comes from the story itself which seems to have been rushed to finish the season. At least, 2 seasons would have been necessary to develop everything (Maddox's life, Soji's life and why she left the planet etc). There is also the fact that Soji want to be only a basic human, instead of accept her true nature and complete the call of the Super synths. Oh's behavior is strange, she has a "sacred" mission, and finally she accepts to do nothing; it is really weird.

    The overall tone of the show is childish, and lack definitely depth.

    Star trek Picard is an average tv show, nothing more, nothing less. Something is missing to make this tv show an excellent one. Maybe the screenwriters should be replaced or it is even all the star trek franchise which needs a total rethinking. well! I don't know.

    As much Westworld is in my top ten, and will remain so, but I have already forgotten Star Trek Picard. I'm not even waiting for the next season.

    That is the part that bothered me, why did they do that...and it was like showing their lack of experience in doing a story, or better yet, they were doing it just to get the money?

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    Departing from Sol *Earth* by Carlos A Smith,on Flickr
    SPACE---The Last and Great Frontier. A 14th-year journey
    Vna res, una mens, unum cor et anima una. Cetera omnia, somnium est.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    starkaos wrote: »
    If there is plot holes in Picard, it would be how easy it was for the Federation to implement the Synth Ban due to how loyal Data was and how easily Picard lost his Admiral rank due to Picard saving the Federation a few times. Commodore Oh wouldn't have enough power to kick out Picard and force a Synth Ban on the Federation.

    This is the same organization that banned genetic engineering based on the actions of a few several centuries ago. When Bashir was instrumental in helping to win the Dominion War that ban wasn’t recalled.
    Picard didn’t lose his commission. He resigned. Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    Commodore Oh didn’t kick Picard out.

    There is a slight difference between the genetic engineering ban and the synth ban. The genetic engineering ban was the result of a bunch of genetically engineered humans trying to take over Earth and a few hundred years in the future had a good genetically engineered human. Genetic engineering was still allowed in the Federation to fix genetic problems like Down Syndrome, Cystic Fibrosis, and Sickle Cell Anemia. The synth ban had a good synthetic and a couple of decades later had a rebellion with a bunch of mediocre synths that didn't have the mental capacity to rebel without external help.

    I don’t think they’re allowed to fix genetic defects. Wasn’t that the whole issue with Bashir? His parents were trying to fix a defect. His dad went to prison over that.
    All the Federation knew at that point was...the synthetics rebelled and destroyed UP. They didn’t know they got TRIBBLE. For all they know the synths could have evolved into sentience.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    no, fixing genetic defects IS legal in federation space...if they're defects capable of causing crippling or life-threatening issues down the line - not only did bashir's specific issue NOT fall within those parameters, his father didn't stop there once it was fixed; he went full augment, and that's why he got incarcerated once bashir's genetic enhancements became public knowledge​​
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    valoreah wrote: »
    I had no idea that was Isa Briones singing "Blue Skies" on Picard. What an absolutely beautiful voice she has! Definitely the best thing of an otherwise piece of TRIBBLE show.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QTKxGG3-4o

    Now I realize that Data was basically dying to the sound of his daughter singing... :'(

    Sad is like happy, but for deep people...

    Mustrum "Technically, it might just us viewers hearing the song, but still" Ridcully
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  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    > @valoreah said:
    > I had no idea that was Isa Briones singing "Blue Skies" on Picard. What an absolutely beautiful voice she has! Definitely the best thing of an otherwise piece of TRIBBLE show.

    Our opinions on the show may be polar opposites but we can certainly agree she does have a wonderful singing voice.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Leaving/rejoining Star Fleet seems to be as easy as just saying “ I’m out” or “I’m back”.
    That's pretty much how Worf handled it in TNG, yeah. And Picard didn't even blink at his coming back to his old role, rank, and assignment to the Enterprise after the Klingon Civil War ended.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    no, fixing genetic defects IS legal in federation space...if they're defects capable of causing crippling or life-threatening issues down the line - not only did bashir's specific issue NOT fall within those parameters, his father didn't stop there once it was fixed; he went full augment, and that's why he got incarcerated once bashir's genetic enhancements became public knowledge​​

    At least Bashir's father found a decent genetic engineer instead of the other Augments we saw in DS9. Genetic Engineering would be involved for most of the hybrids on Star Trek. Phlox is credited for creating a gene therapy for Human/Vulcan hybrids.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    There is a big difference between a well thought out and consistent "intelligent show" that people have been asking for and the sloppy, shallow, plot hole ridden show that CBS delivered. Hopefully they step back next season and actually bother to craft the stories instead of just slinging them off the top of their heads the way this season seems to do. It has nothing to do with outright stating things as such, it just requires conveying the right impressions, something they apparently fell short of.
    Name said plot holes that make the show "ridden" with them. Because I can't think of any, and most of the supposed plot holes I've seen mentioned thus far, aren't, since they were explained. Such as
    -Why did Maddox leave synth world and send Dahj and Soji to Earth/The Artifact?
    -Who did the attacks on Mars?
    -What do you mean Seven of Nine is TRIBBLE?
    starkaos wrote: »
    Not the first time a deleted scene would have explained a certain plot hole.
    I really hate how people misuse the term plothole.

    A plothole, by definition, is something that goes against the consistency, or established logic, of a narrative. Seeing Narek get obliterated into ash by a phaser rifle set to kill, only to have him come back the next episode perfectly fine, and with no mention of how he does so, is a plot hole.

    Them not explaining where Narek went after we last saw him isn't a plot hole, its just an unexplained event.

    Pretty much nothing in that video you posted is a plot hole, regardless of if the deleted scenes happened to exist or not.

    Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.

    To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.

    As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:

    https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review

    One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.

    There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.

    Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    According to Chabon the supernova threatened Romulus and about 15 Romulan colonies of equal population
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Actually that definition is not correct, there are more than just narrative plot holes. In fact, there are generally considered to be five: narrative, McGuffin, character, logic, and deus ex machina. From what I have read PIC seems to hit all five at some point or another (no way to be certain of course working with second-hand sources). And plot holes do not have to be big active glaring things like somtaawkhar's hypothetical Narek example to qualify as a plot hole, they can actually be rather subtle and they do not have to even be internal inconsistencies, especially in a world shared by multiple series and movies.
    >
    > To be fair, almost all movies and series do to some extent, but some handle it better than others and what I have heard of PIC makes me think they did not handle them well.
    >
    > As for specific examples, the Wired article qultuq already linked to brings up a lot of those, and there are even more. For convenience here is the link again:
    >
    > https://wired.co.uk/article/star-trek-picard-finale-review
    >
    > One that they did not address in that article (possibly because it seems to be mainly in the novelization more than the filmed part) was the supernova, which would fall into the logic plothole type, and it would not be a plothole as such if they were not using the starmap they did (just incredibly poor writing). The problem is that in order for the supernova to do the damage described to the RSE, the RSE would have had to be set up as a sphere with Romulus in the center and everything radiating out in shells like the model of an atom, yet the map they use shows the RSE as a long ellipsoid with Romulus at one end, pretty much jammed up against the Federation.
    >
    > There is simply no way the supernova could do significant damage to anything but the capital system itself and maybe one or two major colony worlds without also taking out significant Federation worlds as well (in fact Romulus is closer to Earth than it is to the center of RSE territory along the long axis). And the Romulans would need to start out with more than that to be considered one of the major powers of the quadrant.
    >
    > Also, character backstory that is not properly seeded before the reveal is a form of plot hole, and there have been plenty of people talking about how PIC does that with several characters, along with bungling Chekov's Gun moments that lead to lost or glossed over threads, poorly handled deus ex machina solutions and other things that fall into the five types.

    There is only one rule in tv/movie writing: “Don’t be boring”. Audiences will forgive a lot as long as they are entertained. Raiders of the Lost Ark breaks every writing “rule” and is still regarded as one of the best movies ever made. No one wondered how Indy knew that they needed to shut their eyes or that ultimately Indy didn’t impact the story when they walked out of the movie.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
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