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so Picard.. occurs in 2399?

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    duasyn wrote: »
    it's quite simple. alternate universe. not like it hasn't been done before

    Pretty much the Discovery Universe, imo. Which in my head-canon is the universe where old Spock of the Star Trek 2009 movie came from.

    By my count there are 3 major Trek parallel universes:
    1. Canon Trek (aka TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT)
    2. Kelvin Trek
    3. Prime Trek (old Spock's & Nero's home, Romulus exploding, Discovery, Picard)

    If you think about it, it's the logical way to group them due to glaring fundamental differences between them.
    I'd put STO mostly in the Prime because of the Romulus exploding thing. But really STO would be its own parallel universe cause its such a mash up of everything due to being a game.

    So yeah, Picard takes place in 2399, but its not really 10yrs before STO since its not really the same universe. So nobody knows what really happens in Picard's universe in 2409. ... Except maybe Michael Burnham. :D


    Prime Trek is canon trek.

    that said, offically there seem to be 4 distinct timelines in play in trek.

    Prime/Canon Trek: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT/DIS/PIC
    Kelvin Trek
    STO
    - the, for lack of a better term, Novelverse

    There are people who don't want to consider Discovery and Picard to be the same timeline as Enterprise-Voyager, when you factor in the visuals present in the shows. People like that really like to hold on to the idea that there's a natural progression of styles from series.

    Was there a natural progression of styles? I seem to recall one of the problems people had with Enterprise was it seemed more advanced than TOS.
    Your pain runs deep.
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  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    khan5000 wrote: »
    duasyn wrote: »
    it's quite simple. alternate universe. not like it hasn't been done before

    Pretty much the Discovery Universe, imo. Which in my head-canon is the universe where old Spock of the Star Trek 2009 movie came from.

    By my count there are 3 major Trek parallel universes:
    1. Canon Trek (aka TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT)
    2. Kelvin Trek
    3. Prime Trek (old Spock's & Nero's home, Romulus exploding, Discovery, Picard)

    If you think about it, it's the logical way to group them due to glaring fundamental differences between them.
    I'd put STO mostly in the Prime because of the Romulus exploding thing. But really STO would be its own parallel universe cause its such a mash up of everything due to being a game.

    So yeah, Picard takes place in 2399, but its not really 10yrs before STO since its not really the same universe. So nobody knows what really happens in Picard's universe in 2409. ... Except maybe Michael Burnham. :D


    Prime Trek is canon trek.

    that said, offically there seem to be 4 distinct timelines in play in trek.

    Prime/Canon Trek: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT/DIS/PIC
    Kelvin Trek
    STO
    - the, for lack of a better term, Novelverse

    There are people who don't want to consider Discovery and Picard to be the same timeline as Enterprise-Voyager, when you factor in the visuals present in the shows. People like that really like to hold on to the idea that there's a natural progression of styles from series.

    Was there a natural progression of styles? I seem to recall one of the problems people had with Enterprise was it seemed more advanced than TOS.

    Only from TOS to TNG. Enterprise and Discovery both have tech styled after TNG. Which both these ships should have precursor and TOS styles. So yes, both where actually more advanced than the TOS ships.
    Post edited by trennan on
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 5,406 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    trennan wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    duasyn wrote: »
    it's quite simple. alternate universe. not like it hasn't been done before

    Pretty much the Discovery Universe, imo. Which in my head-canon is the universe where old Spock of the Star Trek 2009 movie came from.

    By my count there are 3 major Trek parallel universes:
    1. Canon Trek (aka TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT)
    2. Kelvin Trek
    3. Prime Trek (old Spock's & Nero's home, Romulus exploding, Discovery, Picard)

    If you think about it, it's the logical way to group them due to glaring fundamental differences between them.
    I'd put STO mostly in the Prime because of the Romulus exploding thing. But really STO would be its own parallel universe cause its such a mash up of everything due to being a game.

    So yeah, Picard takes place in 2399, but its not really 10yrs before STO since its not really the same universe. So nobody knows what really happens in Picard's universe in 2409. ... Except maybe Michael Burnham. :D


    Prime Trek is canon trek.

    that said, offically there seem to be 4 distinct timelines in play in trek.

    Prime/Canon Trek: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT/DIS/PIC
    Kelvin Trek
    STO
    - the, for lack of a better term, Novelverse

    There are people who don't want to consider Discovery and Picard to be the same timeline as Enterprise-Voyager, when you factor in the visuals present in the shows. People like that really like to hold on to the idea that there's a natural progression of styles from series.

    Was there a natural progression of styles? I seem to recall one of the problems people had with Enterprise was it seemed more advanced than TOS.

    Only from TOS to TNG. Enterprise and Discovery both have tech styled after TNG. Which both these ships should have precursor and TOS styles. So yes, both where actually more advanced than the TOS ships.

    Well of course it would look more advanced because of technological advances in our century. Who knows what TOS would have looked like if it had not had a shoestring budget plus the technological limitations they had to deal with. Also, the Discovery had the classified spore drive ( a new invention) and the Glenn also was working on that technology. Enterprise was a prototype and was more military, cramped, than TOS. I had no problem seeing the engines on ENT being a precursor to TOS. Just as I do not see a problem between the period of ENT and TOS, where Star Trek: Discovery resides. Again, this argument just does not convince me. A better argument would convince me to maybe change my mind.
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    sthe91 wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    khan5000 wrote: »
    duasyn wrote: »
    it's quite simple. alternate universe. not like it hasn't been done before

    Pretty much the Discovery Universe, imo. Which in my head-canon is the universe where old Spock of the Star Trek 2009 movie came from.

    By my count there are 3 major Trek parallel universes:
    1. Canon Trek (aka TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT)
    2. Kelvin Trek
    3. Prime Trek (old Spock's & Nero's home, Romulus exploding, Discovery, Picard)

    If you think about it, it's the logical way to group them due to glaring fundamental differences between them.
    I'd put STO mostly in the Prime because of the Romulus exploding thing. But really STO would be its own parallel universe cause its such a mash up of everything due to being a game.

    So yeah, Picard takes place in 2399, but its not really 10yrs before STO since its not really the same universe. So nobody knows what really happens in Picard's universe in 2409. ... Except maybe Michael Burnham. :D


    Prime Trek is canon trek.

    that said, offically there seem to be 4 distinct timelines in play in trek.

    Prime/Canon Trek: TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT/DIS/PIC
    Kelvin Trek
    STO
    - the, for lack of a better term, Novelverse

    There are people who don't want to consider Discovery and Picard to be the same timeline as Enterprise-Voyager, when you factor in the visuals present in the shows. People like that really like to hold on to the idea that there's a natural progression of styles from series.

    Was there a natural progression of styles? I seem to recall one of the problems people had with Enterprise was it seemed more advanced than TOS.

    Only from TOS to TNG. Enterprise and Discovery both have tech styled after TNG. Which both these ships should have precursor and TOS styles. So yes, both where actually more advanced than the TOS ships.

    Well of course it would look more advanced because of technological advances in our century. Who knows what TOS would have looked like if it had not had a shoestring budget.

    I think this is not a good argument. Regardless of what technology we have in filming, the TOS aesthetics have been respected as canon throughout the shows, even in ENT. Only Kurtzmann's new installments decided to actively redesign it.​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 12,569 Arc User
    Mt. McKinley
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
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    'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
    l don't know.
    l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
    That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    edited March 2020
    They respected the TOS asthetic with the Enterprise in Discovery, while bringing it up to Discovery level tech appearance. We had the same Bridge layout, the hand grip things on the turbolift, The Chair, the viewer thing that Spock looks into, they even brought in that weird hypno pattern on Spock's console.

    It is possible to keep many elements while updating the look, and I think they pretty much nailed it with the Enterprise.

    Now... I have some headcanon on why most Discovery ships have squared off nacelles vs the Enterprise's round ones. Other than the Shenzhou, most of the ships are probably newer than 2245, which is the year Enterprise was built. Now... if we look at designs to come, such as the Miranda and Refit Connie... what do they have? Rectangular nacelles. Most of the Discovery era ships have squared off nacelles. So to me that means they're starting to shift towards the rectangular nacelles of the TMP era. Kind of like a precursor to it.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • shredder75shredder75 Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I think this is not a good argument. Regardless of what technology we have in filming, the TOS aesthetics have been respected as canon throughout the shows, even in ENT. Only Kurtzmann's new installments decided to actively redesign it.​​
    This isn't a good argument for one major reason.

    Specifically, the TOS aesthetic has only shown up in one or two episodes per post-TOS show. These episodes are done specifically as nostalgia bait episodes, and, in those situations, you don't have enough time to fundamentally redesign the aesthetic and expect people to buy it. Not to mention that kind of fundamentally defeats the point of the nostalgia bait.

    In something like Discovery, its a whole new show where you can have the entire series be in the new aesthetic, and people have the whole series to get used to it.

    In the case if Discovery, the whole aesthetic doesn't fit into Star Trek at all. Discovery itself is basically the IDIC with 2 warp nacelles slapped onto it. The Walker class is really the only Federation ship in the series that actually fits into the aesthetic, besides the Constitution (which they did an excellent job on.) The Klingon ships apparently were all designed by the great Klingon shipwright HR Geiger. The Section 31 ships looked like they were from another sci-fi series entirely.

    The uniforms, phasers and whatnot were fine but the ships were pretty jarring due to all the hard edges, rather than smooth lines of all TOS and pre-TOS ships. I'm not a purist when it comes to the TOS look. The visual updates in Enterprise didn't bother me, nor did the Discovery updates to the Constitution/D7. I especially liked what they did to the interior of the Enterprise and the bridge. It kept the original theme but also modernized it to actually look like the bridge of a star ship. Overall it was very well done.

    I agree on the earlier TOS post-TOS shows. They were all done with a nostalgic flair, but it wasn't entirely to be nostalgic. Part of it was due to re-using old TOS scenes. They really had no choice given the context of the episode. Trials and Tribble-ations would have turned out really odd otherwise.

    DTdLcywVwAAuysL.jpg
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    shredder75 wrote: »
    Discovery itself is basically the IDIC with 2 warp nacelles slapped onto it.
    The Constitution-class is basically a pancake and a large sausage with two warp nacelles slapped onto it.

    See how easy it is to dismiss a design because you squint and try to imagine what else it could look like?
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    keep in Mind discovery is basicly some old phase 2 concept art IIRC
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 57,973 Community Moderator
    keep in Mind discovery is basicly some old phase 2 concept art IIRC

    Which isn't the first time old concept art was given life as something else. The Nova class was once concept art for the USS Defiant.
    db80k0m-89201ed8-eadb-45d3-830f-bb2f0d4c0fe7.png?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZDQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTgyMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7InBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcL2ExOGQ4ZWM2LTUyZjQtNDdiMS05YTI1LTVlYmZkYmJkOGM3N1wvZGI4MGswbS04OTIwMWVkOC1lYWRiLTQ1ZDMtODMwZi1iYjJmMGQ0YzBmZTcucG5nIn1dXSwiYXVkIjpbInVybjpzZXJ2aWNlOmZpbGUuZG93bmxvYWQiXX0.8G-Pg35Qi8qxiKLjAofaKRH6fmNH3qAAEI628gW0eXc
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out many packs. The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    keep in Mind discovery is basicly some old phase 2 concept art IIRC

    Which isn't the first time old concept art was given life as something else. The Nova class was once concept art for the USS Defiant.

    Still waiting on this concept art to make it in game, the Nausicaan female.
    d2mr3Ut.jpg
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • nrobbiecnrobbiec Member Posts: 959 Arc User
    > @trennan said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Still waiting on this concept art to make it in game, the Nausicaan female.
    > (Image)

    That does look cool but they would probably spoil them like they did with Reman females.
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 11,001 Arc User
    Why can't the fella on the left be the Nausicaan female? pig-1.gif Women aren't always super lean cat burglars, you know...​​
    lFC4bt2.gif
    ^ Memory Alpha.org is not canon. It's a open wiki with arbitrary rules. Only what can be cited from an episode is. ^
    "No. Men do not roar. Women roar. Then they hurl heavy objects... and claw at you." -Worf, son of Mogh
    "A filthy, mangy beast, but in its bony breast beat the heart of a warrior" - "faithful" (...) "but ever-ready to follow the call of the wild." - Martok, about a Targ
    "That pig smelled horrid. A sweet-sour, extremely pungent odor. I showered and showered, and it took me a week to get rid of it!" - Robert Justman, appreciating Emmy-Lou
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    duasyn wrote: »
    Pretty much the Discovery Universe, imo. Which in my head-canon is the universe where old Spock of the Star Trek 2009 movie came from.

    By my count there are 3 major Trek parallel universes:
    1. Canon Trek (aka TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT)
    2. Kelvin Trek
    3. Prime Trek (old Spock's & Nero's home, Romulus exploding, Discovery, Picard)

    Not only is your headcanon completely wrong (Spock has a photo of the TOS crew from TUC) you also can't count. There are many alternate timelines (not universes), Yesterday's Enterprise, Endgame, The City on the Edge of Forever, Yesteryear, All Good Things, Parallels and so on.
    duasyn wrote: »
    If you think about it, it's the logical way to group them due to glaring fundamental differences between them.

    It's logical if you ignore all significant differences before 2009 and pretend any differences after 2009 are much larger than they are. In the real world it's just a failure of logic.
    There are people who don't want to consider Discovery and Picard to be the same timeline as Enterprise-Voyager, when you factor in the visuals present in the shows. People like that really like to hold on to the idea that there's a natural progression of styles from series.

    That's because those people are wrong. TOS is completely and utterly different from anything else in the franchise in both style and continuity. It takes a massive leap of nostalgia to imagine that happens in the same universe as DS9 but then also to simultaneously pretend DS9 and PIC aren't in the same timeline.
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Was there a natural progression of styles? I seem to recall one of the problems people had with Enterprise was it seemed more advanced than TOS.

    ENT has now slipped into that magical area where it can have all its flaws overlooked whereas DSC and PIC are still too new for that.

    As it is anyway, ENT (and DSC and PIC) fit perfectly, like every other series, by ignoring TOS.
    trennan wrote: »
    Only from TOS to TNG. Enterprise and Discovery both have tech styled after TNG. Which both these ships should have precursor and TOS styles. So yes, both where actually more advanced than the TOS ships.

    DSC does not have tech styled after TNG nor should it have ships that are precursors to the Conni as the Conni is an older ship. I really don't know why that bit is so hard to grasp.

    TOS is set in the 2260s, there are no ships built in the 2260s seen in TOS (or ships other than the Conni), the Enterprise was launched in the 40s and the class could be even older. The Crossfield is brand spanking new in the 50s. The next ships seen are the new builds of the 70s which take after the DSC ships not the TOS Conni. It's really not difficult.

    The tech deliberately is drawn from the TOS pilots and series. It's got blue ship phasers, a nonsense warp scale, boxy tricorders, hand phasers based on the Cage ones. There is nothing in it from beyond TNG.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    I think this is not a good argument. Regardless of what technology we have in filming, the TOS aesthetics have been respected as canon throughout the shows, even in ENT. Only Kurtzmann's new installments decided to actively redesign it.​​

    Probably because Kurtzman realised how ridiculous the TOS stuff looked against the much better designs of ENT, TNG, and DS9.

    TOS does not match any other part of the franchise and now it's finally getting redesigned to fit.

    Also, TOS is still respected as canon because it's still canon, a retcon doesn't change that.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Now... I have some headcanon on why most Discovery ships have squared off nacelles vs the Enterprise's round ones. Other than the Shenzhou, most of the ships are probably newer than 2245, which is the year Enterprise was built. Now... if we look at designs to come, such as the Miranda and Refit Connie... what do they have? Rectangular nacelles. Most of the Discovery era ships have squared off nacelles. So to me that means they're starting to shift towards the rectangular nacelles of the TMP era. Kind of like a precursor to it.

    That's not headcanon, it's shown in the show. Other than the Walker, every other ship in DSC shares parts with the Crossfield meaning they're of the same age (like how we know the Constellation is the same age as the Miranda or the Freedom is the same age as the Galaxy).

    It's not just the nacelles. The DSC ships have aztecing, they have the shapes of the TMP era ships overall, they use the same lettering etc.

    The Walker doesn't share things with the main DSC ships other than the deflector. It's rounded not angular, it has completely different nacelles, and it's specifically stated to be old.
    shredder75 wrote: »
    In the case if Discovery, the whole aesthetic doesn't fit into Star Trek at all. Discovery itself is basically the IDIC with 2 warp nacelles slapped onto it.

    Oh look it's the lazy anti-Defiant argument reimagined for a new decade. How original.
    shredder75 wrote: »
    The Walker class is really the only Federation ship in the series that actually fits into the aesthetic, besides the Constitution (which they did an excellent job on.)

    All the Federation ships look exactly like they should and all fit perfectly as successors to the primitive Conni and predecessors to the Excelsior
    shredder75 wrote: »
    The Klingon ships apparently were all designed by the great Klingon shipwright HR Geiger.

    No. Two did, the Cleave ship and BoP. I can see this lazy argument being used when the show was new and all we had were the awful battlescenes where you couldn't see the ships, but now we have actual images of them, there's no need to keep getting things so wrong.
    shredder75 wrote: »
    The Section 31 ships looked like they were from another sci-fi series entirely.

    No they didn't.
    shredder75 wrote: »
    The uniforms, phasers and whatnot were fine but the ships were pretty jarring due to all the hard edges, rather than smooth lines of all TOS and pre-TOS ships.

    They're not TOS ships so shouldn't look like TOS ships. There are no TOS ships anyway.
    keep in Mind discovery is basicly some old phase 2 concept art IIRC

    Planet of the Titans. That ship actually did turn up in TMP and another version in TNG which makes the people saying the Crossfield doesn't look like any other ship look even more silly, it looks like at least two others.
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Why can't the fella on the left be the Nausicaan female? pig-1.gif Women aren't always super lean cat burglars, you know...​​

    I still maintain the Nausicaans from TNG/DS9 are the males and the ones from ENT are the females.
    22762792376_ac7c992b7c_o.png
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