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Traditional MMO?

Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

Thanks!
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  • mneme0mneme0 Member Posts: 469 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Not a bit. This game is all DPS, and a tank is just a DPS engine that can heal itself longer.

    As for variations I'd say there are fast DPS ships, slow DPS ships, and science crowd control DPS ships. But no "support" build is really viable endgame.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,225 Arc User
    donluining wrote: »
    Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

    Thanks!

    Nope. Any career can be self-sufficient in DPS and Healing. Reverse Shield Polarity (Be sure to get hold of the Doff to increase up time for this skill) and Hazard Emitters Boff skills ensure longevity.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    donluining wrote: »
    Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

    Thanks!

    Well, not any more. Once upon a time it was. But that's has long since went the way of the dinosaur.
    Mm5NeXy.gif
  • donluiningdonluining Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    Okay, thanks for answering guys!
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    I would like to see it come back, it gives purpose, it gives comradery, brings people together in these somewhat lonely or less social times...
    But that is just me.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    Kinda glad I went tactical, was going to do engineer tank for my main as I played tanks in other mmos. This is a whole different mmo
  • laughinxanlaughinxan Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    > @kiksken said:
    > I would like to see it come back, it gives purpose, it gives comradery, brings people together in these somewhat lonely or less social times...
    > But that is just me.

    I do not play holy trinity games. I do not log into a game to wait 2-3 hours for a healer to join whos very likely to be a narcissist in disguise. I had enough of that in guild wars during the start of my college days. I won't go back when I have a 40 hour work week and half hour drive to and from work.


    This is the year 2020. There are better ways to encourage team play than forced roles.


    It takes a strong man to deny whats right in front of him. And when the truth is undeniable, you create your own. - Conrad - Spec ops the Line

    Every time I see a wannabe-pro-gamer, the tryhard, I'm instantly thinking of how they often think they are the heroes of supposedly hard games. How it's there words that make sense only to them, but in the end, they are the ones actually hurting and harming the challenging game industry. From defending obvious game-breakers, or demanding others use a mechanic that fundamentally removes challenge. Sorry dudes, your not helping. Your not even helping games become challenging or hard in a good way again.

    Games don't feel like games when you can't lose, and also don't feel the same if you can't win fairly either.
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 2,814 Community Moderator
    edited March 2020
    donluining wrote: »
    Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

    Thanks!

    You can do a setup with the traditional trinity type in mind but it's not needed. The most common you will see in this game is DPS and Tanks. So if anything this is more of a Holy Duo game than a traditional trinity setup. While dedicated healers can be done, DPS and Tanks can heal themselves pretty well.
    mneme0 wrote: »
    Not a bit. This game is all DPS, and a tank is just a DPS engine that can heal itself longer.

    As for variations I'd say there are fast DPS ships, slow DPS ships, and science crowd control DPS ships. But no "support" build is really viable endgame.

    No, no it's not, not even* close. There is more to tanking than purely DPS and just "healing itself longer". Also healing builds are possible, just not the most potent things ever. I really wish this "DPS is everything" mentality would disappear already.
    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

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  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    It is very different, indeed.
    Unless they should return back to the original idea with classes and specifications for these.
    I believe it would bring far more players in... then, I could be wrong there, of course.
    With humans, one cannot guarantee anything at all. XD

    I wonder how many would welcome back the more traditional approach from back in the days...

    Then again, Engi or Sci are fun too if you're into that. ;)
    Having several slots, you can experiment around.
    I suggest, actually, that you do that...
    Who knows what you feel best with in the end.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • laughinxanlaughinxan Member Posts: 161 Arc User
    One way to look at it. Engineers can be very survivable and still do truckloads with an exotic damage build. But they can be tanky if you go for a good damage output and also make use of skills to boost agro. There is some fun to be had playing an escort or raptor as an engineer to. Just be aware you'll need far better gear on an engineer to get good damage compared to a tac. And good piloting skills.

    You also have to remember that very high dps makes more difference only on higher health enemies. Not all tfos are made for dps records.

    It really depends on how you setup your bridge officers and use them and how you pair any duty officers to the bridge off abilities.


    It takes a strong man to deny whats right in front of him. And when the truth is undeniable, you create your own. - Conrad - Spec ops the Line

    Every time I see a wannabe-pro-gamer, the tryhard, I'm instantly thinking of how they often think they are the heroes of supposedly hard games. How it's there words that make sense only to them, but in the end, they are the ones actually hurting and harming the challenging game industry. From defending obvious game-breakers, or demanding others use a mechanic that fundamentally removes challenge. Sorry dudes, your not helping. Your not even helping games become challenging or hard in a good way again.

    Games don't feel like games when you can't lose, and also don't feel the same if you can't win fairly either.
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 633 Arc User
    Engineer seems like a good casual/pugging class
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 5,260 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    I will add a dissonant note here....

    There actually is some elements of a "trinity" setup in the game... though it is not as distinct as in other games. It is mostly, however, only a factor on ground maps.

    Why? In space and on ground, while everything else is roughly equal and available to all, you do get 3 or 4 captain-specific skills, which are profession specific. On the ground, there are also profession-based limits on most slottable abilities.

    So there are a number of things that are only accessible to Tacs, only accessible to Sci or only accessible to Eng.

    The space Tac abilities are mainly damage boosters, Sci is mainly buff/resistance removers, and Engineering are mostly indirect general self-boosters. They do affect the overall performance of builds (a Tac and a Sci and an Eng can all be flying the same ship with the same setup, but will NOT have identical results). That effect is however relatively small.

    On the ground, the percentage of your "ability arsenal" that is profession-specific (which in space is maybe 10%) jumps to about 35-40%.

  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 8,809 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    Captain role makes the most difference on the ground. Tac throws grenades and dies, Eng builds drones, turrets and mortars that distract enemies and takes damage instead of him, Sci self-heals and does some AOE damage + debuff.

    In space, ships and boff powers matter more than the captain types though captain type does get you a few extra powers to fit the type.
  • cirran1cirran1 Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    No, no it's not, not even* close. There is more to tanking than purely DPS and just "healing itself longer". Also healing builds are possible, just not the most potent things ever. I really wish this "DPS is everything" mentality would disappear already. [/quote]

    It is interesting how this is how the game is perceived/viewed. Literally watch in game chat in ESD, or Sector Space and when someone asks, they are told DPS is king, don't waste your time doing anything else. How would you change that?

    Cirran

    Edit: This is directed to darkbladejk, Not sure what happen when I quoted your post, tried to fix this and it just got worse. I am afraid to mess with it any more.
  • westmetalswestmetals Member Posts: 5,260 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    cirran1 wrote: »

    It is interesting how this is how the game is perceived/viewed. Literally watch in game chat in ESD, or Sector Space and when someone asks, they are told DPS is king, don't waste your time doing anything else. How would you change that?

    Cirran

    They're not entirely wrong, but that does not mean there is one way to do it. A "tank" still has to do a decent amount of DPS in order to be effective, and what that actual amount is depends on the DPS of your teammates. (If you have a neighbor who is doing more DPS than you, and you are trying to tank, you need threat multipliers in order to draw fire away from them... and while there are a lot of threat modifiers out there, it is not infinite.)

    And on the other side of that coin, a "glass cannon" type build, which some record-chasing Tac DPS builds are, can sometimes suffer because of a lack of survivability.

    My take on it is simply that there is a certain amount of DPS (I am not going to throw out a number, but it's somewhere around the mathematical average of all builds out there, or maybe a touch lower) that is necessary in order to pull your weight in Advanced-level TFOs, and that same amount will also allow you to breeze through nearly all single-player content in the game without much difficulty. If you are NOT reaching that level, then yes, you need to work on your DPS.

    The good news is that a well-thought-out, well-informed, well-designed build can hit those levels of DPS even with VR Mk XII gear - meaning top end loot drops, fleet vendor items, and stuff you can get off the exchange, or craft, without upgrading.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 53,032 Community Moderator
    I think a total revamp to the Threat system might be needed. As it is now, without threat multipliers whoever is doing the most damage draws the most hate from the enemy. So its pretty much always going to be someone in a DPS build drawing aggro even with a tank. We need more options to support tank builds in order to draw aggro more effeciently even with high DPS ships around.

    Now it probably won't be 100% effective, as there are some builds that literally melt everything in sight, but if something is established to help those who prefer a more traditional tank role, and also support that as well, I'm sure we'll see a shift away from "DPS or GTFO mah game" to more strategic thinking. Another issue is that the tank does need to be able to weather the firestorm as well, so an increase in resistances, heals, and maybe even defense capabilities.
    On the other hand I already foresee people not using anything geared more towards tanking in favor of the DPS meta. The current thinking is "It cannot hurt you if it is already dead", which means pile on the DPS. And unfortunately... the current thinking actually works.
    westmetals wrote: »
    My take on it is simply that there is a certain amount of DPS (I am not going to throw out a number, but it's somewhere around the mathematical average of all builds out there, or maybe a touch lower) that is necessary in order to pull your weight in Advanced-level TFOs, and that same amount will also allow you to breeze through nearly all single-player content in the game without much difficulty. If you are NOT reaching that level, then yes, you need to work on your DPS.

    On average from a parser, if you can manage approx 10k DPS in Infected Advanced (give or take a bit) with an average team, you're good. Gear wise that would generally mean at least mk XII purple weapons and fill all your tac consoles with mk XII purple basic damage consoles that match your energy type. From there its down to what BOff abilities you use and how you fly. But the basics are the weapons and damage booster consoles. Optimally you'd want damage Locator consoles from a Fleet Spire, but it can be done with basic damage consoles.

    Word is that Cryptic does want to set up a system you can go to for build testing. However it has been a while since we heard anything about it.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • cirran1cirran1 Member Posts: 196 Arc User
    westmetals wrote: »
    cirran1 wrote: »

    It is interesting how this is how the game is perceived/viewed. Literally watch in game chat in ESD, or Sector Space and when someone asks, they are told DPS is king, don't waste your time doing anything else. How would you change that?

    Cirran

    They're not entirely wrong, but that does not mean there is one way to do it. A "tank" still has to do a decent amount of DPS in order to be effective, and what that actual amount is depends on the DPS of your teammates. (If you have a neighbor who is doing more DPS than you, and you are trying to tank, you need threat multipliers in order to draw fire away from them... and while there are a lot of threat modifiers out there, it is not infinite.)

    And on the other side of that coin, a "glass cannon" type build, which some record-chasing Tac DPS builds are, can sometimes suffer because of a lack of survivability.

    My take on it is simply that there is a certain amount of DPS (I am not going to throw out a number, but it's somewhere around the mathematical average of all builds out there, or maybe a touch lower) that is necessary in order to pull your weight in Advanced-level TFOs, and that same amount will also allow you to breeze through nearly all single-player content in the game without much difficulty. If you are NOT reaching that level, then yes, you need to work on your DPS.

    The good news is that a well-thought-out, well-informed, well-designed build can hit those levels of DPS even with VR Mk XII gear - meaning top end loot drops, fleet vendor items, and stuff you can get off the exchange, or craft, without upgrading.

    Are you saying the impression is correct and that can not be changed? My question to darkbladejk was how do you change that?

    Cirran
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 3,685 Arc User
    donluining wrote: »
    Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

    Thanks!

    Nope - the "Trinity" is dead in STO. There's very little content that even really requires coordination to successfully complete. The MMO is probably the most casual MMO in tears of high end endgame. Yes, there are peope measuring their Epeens that can do bettween 100K to 300K DPS <--- But that's overkill for 99% of the content in STO.
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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    PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
  • warmaker001bwarmaker001b Member Posts: 9,164 Arc User
    When T5U was the endgame, there were sharper differences between damage dealing and tanky builds. When T6 came out, the line was irreversibly blurred.

    With the arrival of T6 ships, there are now many, many ships that are both offensively strong while still being quite sturdy.

    You can see this with the Galaxy. The T5 version was quite weak offensively with a poor amount of Tactical BOFF slots, but it had a high amount of Engineering BOFF capability.

    When the T6 Galaxy came out, it got a LtCmdr TAC station and now all the sudden it can do damage more easily.

    Lots of T5 Escorts were lucky if they got a Lt ENG station. At T6, LtCmdr ENG is a given for Escorts.
    XzRTofz.gif
  • duasynduasyn Member Posts: 458 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    donluining wrote: »
    Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

    Thanks!


    If you and some friends set your ships up for those roles, I'd guess it can make an effective team. Some do tank builds in STO effectively. But mostly it's "kill em fast and they can't hurt you" type of thing.

    The more common distinction is HOW you want to kill things? Beams? Torps? Sci-build? Hell, Timberwolf just did a 200k Minefield build. His buddy runs a tank build so he can DPS w/o worrying about being blown up.
  • iraakiraak Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I can easily say you can make a fully dedicated heal/support ship in this game; but yes most the time people just play DPS but go try to experiment at your own pace!
    Commander of the 421st Wrecker company!

    'never a dull moment when you're a Wrecker!'- wrecker motto
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    cirran1 wrote: »
    It is interesting how this is how the game is perceived/viewed. Literally watch in game chat in ESD, or Sector Space and when someone asks, they are told DPS is king, don't waste your time doing anything else. How would you change that?

    Cirran
    Well, as to how to fix the DPS terror...
    I addressed this in a different, now locked, post.
    DPS hardcap could fix this without touching anything other such as skills, defence, you name it.
    Basically you add an ingame "reversed cheat" that addresses a specific address and tunes that value down.
    It's dead easy to accomplish.

    Sadly, folks will go apeshit if you do this...
    And no, I TOO will have to give in plenty if they did this, BUT I can distance myself from this.
    The need of many outweighs (in this case) the needs of the game.
    And I for one would gladly sacrifice for the greater good....

    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 4,225 Arc User
    kiksken wrote: »
    cirran1 wrote: »
    It is interesting how this is how the game is perceived/viewed. Literally watch in game chat in ESD, or Sector Space and when someone asks, they are told DPS is king, don't waste your time doing anything else. How would you change that?

    Cirran
    Well, as to how to fix the DPS terror...
    I addressed this in a different, now locked, post.
    DPS hardcap could fix this without touching anything other such as skills, defence, you name it.
    Basically you add an ingame "reversed cheat" that addresses a specific address and tunes that value down.
    It's dead easy to accomplish.

    Sadly, folks will go apeshit if you do this...
    And no, I TOO will have to give in plenty if they did this, BUT I can distance myself from this.
    The need of many outweighs (in this case) the needs of the game.
    And I for one would gladly sacrifice for the greater good....

    You don't need to DPS cap ANYTHING! The issue is, the game has been dumbed down that much that anyone can handle it. There used to be PvE missions that required more than 15 minutes of your time, but some complained it was too long for them. There used to be challenging enemies, but some complained it took to long to defeat them. Even with some missions having puzzles, some people still complained they couldn't figure it out. The game is nothing more than a theme-park in space at the moment.

    The 'trinity', however isn't required, and not really supported in canon either. Both Picard and Janeway were Science-focused and Janeway even had a great grasp of engineering; but both were excellent tacticians!
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • postagepaidpostagepaid Member Posts: 2,777 Arc User
    Back in the day the game did have the unholy trinity although it seemed to be less heal reliant than other titles with groups being more like tank, control and pewpew in space.

    Nowadays there's less need for a tank as power creep has run rampant and other than the occasional new gimmick all the space content is just a generic mindless phaser fest. For example, the hurq being butt-nibblers annoyed the more mindless of the pewpewers because they avoided a frontal arc but were actually only dangerous when they blew up en masse inside your ship due to hitboxes being wonky.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
    donluining wrote: »
    Hey people! So a simple question, Im used to the traditional MMO with the tanks and healers. Is STO this kind of game? Are healers needed at endgame?

    Thanks!

    They're not needed, but STO has a wide variety of items, traits, skills that allow you to build your ship any way you want.

    Most of the game's newer content is time-gated, where enemies will simply keep appearing for a given amount of time until the next phase of the mission starts.

    While most of those enemies will be killed very fast by many players you will encounter, the fact that them shooting stuff faster does not complete the mission faster, means that you can basically fly any type of ship you want and still contribute in some way.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • fleetcaptain5#1134 fleetcaptain5 Member Posts: 2,416 Arc User
    As for the people claiming the game is only about DPS:

    That is, thus, simply not true in most of the game's more recently released content. DPS will not get you anywhere in terms of completing the content faster in those missions.

    Check the current state of the game before giving advice please, the game has evolved beyond only ISA/ISE and things that might have been true a couple of months/years ago and even then in only a part of the missions, no longer are.



    Besides, you don't want to know how often I encounter players dealing large amounts of DPS (and I have no trouble killing stuff on my own so I'm really talking about the more powerful players here) who seem to have close to zero survivability.


    If the OP wants to fly a tank or a healer, that is a viable strategy. There's more than only DPS.
    [4:46] [Combat {self}] Your Haymaker deals 23337 (9049) Physical Damage(Critical) to Spawnmother

    [3/25 10:41][Combat (Self)]Your Haymaker deals 26187 (10692) Physical Damage(Critical) to Orinoco.
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 863 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    kiksken wrote: »
    cirran1 wrote: »
    It is interesting how this is how the game is perceived/viewed. Literally watch in game chat in ESD, or Sector Space and when someone asks, they are told DPS is king, don't waste your time doing anything else. How would you change that?

    Cirran
    Well, as to how to fix the DPS terror...
    I addressed this in a different, now locked, post.
    DPS hardcap could fix this without touching anything other such as skills, defence, you name it.
    Basically you add an ingame "reversed cheat" that addresses a specific address and tunes that value down.
    It's dead easy to accomplish.

    Sadly, folks will go apeshit if you do this...
    And no, I TOO will have to give in plenty if they did this, BUT I can distance myself from this.
    The need of many outweighs (in this case) the needs of the game.
    And I for one would gladly sacrifice for the greater good....

    You don't need to DPS cap ANYTHING! The issue is, the game has been dumbed down that much that anyone can handle it. There used to be PvE missions that required more than 15 minutes of your time, but some complained it was too long for them. There used to be challenging enemies, but some complained it took to long to defeat them. Even with some missions having puzzles, some people still complained they couldn't figure it out. The game is nothing more than a theme-park in space at the moment.

    The 'trinity', however isn't required, and not really supported in canon either. Both Picard and Janeway were Science-focused and Janeway even had a great grasp of engineering; but both were excellent tacticians!

    Perfectly put.

    Unfortunately, at the moment, while you can absolutely build your ship to be a tank or a healer, there's basically no need for it - unless you go for some elite queues.
    Not to mention, for tanks specifically as @rattler2 said, the higher DPS will generate more aggro, therefore a tank must be able to compete with that DPS to keep the enemy fixed on themselves.
    A possible solution would be to actually put in tactics that needs to be followed and cannot be circumvented by pure DPS alone.
    That'd force people to actually think about what they're doing instead of just going in trashing everything.

    But until that change comes, and comes in a meaningful way, I'm afraid DPS will always be regarded as the only viable way of doing things.​​
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  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    You don't need to DPS cap ANYTHING!
    For the record, I replied to a QUESTION asked by sir Cirran.
    I was not saying this should be done, merely that it CAN be done, and that IF it were to be done, I too had to give in.

    So, no need for anger or frustration, is it.
    Might be a good thing to READ before REACTING.
    Just pointing out what should be obvious.
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
  • kikskenkiksken Member Posts: 664 Arc User
    By the way, DPS is actually a big problem to some.
    How fun is this: enter zone, FaW, FaW, all dead, mission ends.

    God...
    Klingons don't get drunk.
    They just get less sober.
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