The core issue right now is that there is no content really to match player power levels. While we do have Elite versions of TFOs, the main issue is non Elite content and players being "overpowered" compared to said content. As of right now the only means of determining a player's ability to handle Elite content is DPS numbers. Something that players have to figure out on their own. There is no gear score to determine if a player is ready for a certain level of difficulty. The game itself is geared towards not pushing DPS for story progression. A player with a decently geared T5 can still complete all story missions just fine. There is no paywall to do any content whatsoever.
This makes STO pretty player friendly in accessability. It also means opening up areas of the game not meant to be slammed by high performance builds to high performance builds. Now... one way STO has attempted to combat this in some zones is level scaling. For example Nimbus III is level scaled to the 20s. You can be a lv 65 top geared player, but you're still going to be performing at an approximate equivelent level. And for mission replays, the game actually scales the content up to your level and preferred difficulty level. Except for the space NPCs in the TOS arc for some reason on TOS characters. You get scaled down to first run level, while enemy NPCs are your actual level for some dumb reason.
Anyways... make more content that challenges the top end, you may see the top players actually using that more. Also better level scaling might help curb things a bit in public areas like Battlezones. The only variable there would end up being how well synergized a player's build and tactics are. The level scaling seems to work better on ground though than in space as there aren't as many things synergizing with other things to boost performance.
A hard cap on DPS doesn't help anyone. Its a punishment for overperforming or challenging yourself to go beyond a certain point. Most of these top DPS players do it because they want to see how far they can push their builds. To them, that is fun. Yea to a casual that may not be fun, but some people do enjoy getting into the deep mechanics of squeezing every last decimal point of performance out of a ship. It is as much a puzzle as it is a performance boost. What works with what? What boosts what? How does this affect that?
What a hard DPS cap does... is tell people they are not allowed to have fun that way. That their fun is wrong. That they must conform to a certain playstyle.
Sounds a bit like the reverse of what I've typically stood against, which is the more extreme views on DPS where you MUST fly things a certain way, and a certain way ONLY, or you are playing the game wrong.
That kind of hardline stance on how others play is something I oppose. Fun for all does not mean "my way or the highway".
However: those that can't invest the same time you invested, why do they need to be punished?
Those that cannot buy the same stuff, why do they need to be left back?
And there you fall into the common fatal flaw.. looking at things through no perpective other then your own.
On the other side, I have been here week in week out for years. Doing all the events for the 'shineys' playing content, grouping with my fleet and even sometimes spending money to improve and get myself to where I want to be. So from my side, what gives you the right to just come back day one and have everything I have? How is it fair for you and I to be equal when I have put in the effort and you have not?
You see, it cuts both ways. Your solution of 'hard capping DPS' has come up before and it's nothing but a short sided way to try and bring down higher end players so that new and lower geared players don't have to put forth any additional effort. The game already offers missions playable on 3 difficulties, the game is very playable by new players and 'DPS Gods' alike. Battle Zones do tend to throw all types of players together, but that hardly punishes lower geared players. Oh no.. you are now guaranteed to complete the zone in time.. how awful for you.
If you have a problem and your solution is to cap others so you don't have to do anything.. your solution is flawed.
What a hard DPS cap does... is tell people they are not allowed to have fun that way. That their fun is wrong. That they must conform to a certain playstyle.
let alone a science type build. Did they get a console/trait proc, did their weapons proc, what level of EPG and such are they running, what ship are they using (boff layout determines powers that can be used), and down the line. Again capping damage simply puts an artificial barrier in the way and takes away the incentive to better, to learn and grow and master your build.
Why specifically Science?
Why not Tactical or Engineer?
And how so it creates a barrier?
Also: how does it remove the incentive to better oneself, to learn, to grow, or to master?
Whatever the build you're using, it creates a barrier by simply existing, because a cap on DPS - no matter where it comes from - it's a limit that cannot be surpassed no matter what you do.
And that is also why it remove the incentive to do better, because if you cannot go above that, what's the point?
If all I do, all I try out, amount to the maximum same amount there's no point in trying to improve.
Once I hit that ceiling, why would I choose to continue improving when it won't matter?
Because it is not ONLY about damage, is it?
It's about skill, it's about defence, tactics, TRIBBLE, reading...
Erm, no, forget reading...
Defense comes from gear, skills and traits... if you hard cap dps - unless you touch only the damage from weapons and epg powers - then you hard cap defense, too. So, there's your first mistake.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
Not to mention that in battlezones tactics have never been there.
Badlands? Just go in, interact if you need to, otherwise trash everything. Done.
Defera? Same as above.
Gon'kra? Gamma? Kobali prime? The Dyson Sphere? Again, same as above.
Sure, damage is a big thing, but it surely ain't ALL.
There are plenty other fields to improve upon...
Prove me wrong here...
We don't have to prove you wrong, no matter how many you put in your posts, because you did it by yourself: if you think that DPS comes solely from gear, then boy you have a lot to learn.
Or what, you think good DPSers - not even the top scores, mind you - just rely on gear?
And again, as I've already said: there's very few content in this game that requires something different than pure DPS.
But I guess it's easier to come to the forums and shame other people because, through the years, they've put in the time and effort to get where they are now.
I'm not a top DPSer by any means, and while I'd prefer if those capable of finishing an ISA in 24 seconds flat would stay solely on Elite as to avoid making it extremely difficult for other players to not get an AFK penalty, hard-capping DPS is not the solution for the problem.
Give us something to do, with proper tactics and fail conditions, improve the combat log so that it's reliable on every map and not just one, force people to think about what they're doing and we'll start to see the results.
Implementing proper raids in this game is impossible because there will always be a (very vocal) minority, of which you're clearly a member, that will complain loudly that it's too hard and that people that do well should be nerfed.
It's exactly the reason why we are where we are now in the game, with all the new queues being nothing but "sit down somewhere and wait for the queue to finish itself".
But sure, the solution is to hard-cap people that have actually put in the effort to understand how the mechanics works, to find what goes where, what boost what and so and so on... all because "I came back after years of not playing, I can't do anything, therefore I DEMAND that people get brought down to my level so that I won't feel useless".
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
The core issue right now is that there is no content really to match player power levels. While we do have Elite versions of TFOs, the main issue is non Elite content and players being "overpowered" compared to said content. As of right now the only means of determining a player's ability to handle Elite content is DPS numbers. Something that players have to figure out on their own. There is no gear score to determine if a player is ready for a certain level of difficulty. The game itself is geared towards not pushing DPS for story progression. A player with a decently geared T5 can still complete all story missions just fine. There is no paywall to do any content whatsoever.
That's exactly it. There is simply nothing for good players to do in the game but curbstomp newbie content, because all the worthwhile content in the game is newbie-level. Elites don't have meaningful reward incentives so they count for nothing (and quite frankly some of the Elites are newbie-level, too).
This makes STO pretty player friendly in accessability. It also means opening up areas of the game not meant to be slammed by high performance builds to high performance builds. Now... one way STO has attempted to combat this in some zones is level scaling. For example Nimbus III is level scaled to the 20s. You can be a lv 65 top geared player, but you're still going to be performing at an approximate equivelent level. And for mission replays, the game actually scales the content up to your level and preferred difficulty level. Except for the space NPCs in the TOS arc for some reason on TOS characters. You get scaled down to first run level, while enemy NPCs are your actual level for some dumb reason.
I've never seen any game where level scaling worked well. All it usually does is stop struggling players from grinding a few extra levels to make the content easier. Certainly in STO, a lv65 scaled down to 20 isn't anywhere near equal to a real 20.
Nor do I see any reason why people in vastly different stages of the game should be playing the same content to begin with. We have instances and difficulty settings for a reason. They could just make higher-level instances of battlezones and stuff for better players to challenge, so that weaker players could have the easy versions to themselves.
But of course, that would require Cryptic being willing to head off the inevitable complaints that the advanced versions are "too hard" by telling the complainers to play an easier one. Something which they so historically haven't been willing to do with the TFOs, either.
Anyways... make more content that challenges the top end, you may see the top players actually using that more. Also better level scaling might help curb things a bit in public areas like Battlezones. The only variable there would end up being how well synergized a player's build and tactics are. The level scaling seems to work better on ground though than in space as there aren't as many things synergizing with other things to boost performance.
More challenging content yes, but most especially more rewards incentives. It doesn't matter if challenging content exists, as long as it's more profitable for the top players to keep one-shotting the easy content instead.
You know DAMN why it will kill the game because I said so in the post you quoted and than promptly cut. So...yeah protest all you want, but that sort of game design is why D&D almost died at 4th ed. It's why a lot of PvP games that attempt perfect balance fails and dies. It is a bloody moronic approach to game design.
Sure, I get it, you no likee-likee, but WHY would it kill the game.
You have not answered that one.
Sheck for yourself, sir.
Because it is not ONLY about damage, is it?
It's about skill, it's about defence, tactics, TRIBBLE, reading...
Erm, no, forget reading...
Defense comes from gear, skills and traits... if you hard cap dps - unless you touch only the damage from weapons and epg powers - then you hard cap defense, too. So, there's your first mistake.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
Not to mention that in battlezones tactics have never been there.
Badlands? Just go in, interact if you need to, otherwise trash everything. Done.
Defera? Same as above.
Gon'kra? Gamma? Kobali prime? The Dyson Sphere? Again, same as above.
Capping DPS is NOT capping skills, equipment, ships...
Defense is NOT tied to DPS, both are entirely different codes and amounts.
Dropping DPS will NOT affect your defense, at all.
As for Tactics?
True, those went out the door when uber DPS became a thing, thank you, for pointing that one out.
I forgot to add that to my previous posts.
We don't have to prove you wrong, no matter how many you put in your posts, because you did it by yourself: if you think that DPS comes solely from gear, then boy you have a lot to learn.
If you had read earlier posts, you would have actually seen that I said the very opposite to what you claim here.
And again: one does NOT have to touch ANYTHING else but the outgoing damage.
If I want to change the tire of a car, I change just that, and nothing else.
You seem to affect the whole car for changing a tire.
Also, for specific zones this hardcap can be adjusted, where needed.
Nimbus 3 was brought up, good example.
But sure, the solution is to hard-cap people that have actually put in the effort to understand how the mechanics works, to find what goes where, what boost what and so and so on... all because "I came back after years of not playing, I can't do anything, therefore I DEMAND that people get brought down to my level so that I won't feel useless".
Really, you need to learn to read all posts.
And if you have issues, REread these.
I clearly stated, I did darn well, that I too would 'have to give in', so please... don't do this, OK.
Secondly, ALSO DAMN CLEARLY SAID: I gave ideas, not even SUGGESTIONS, and yes, i come up for these, since these are logical.
It occurs to me, that you do not grasp a simple tiny fact: to fix the issues... one HAS to give in on other things.
One CANNOT have all, you CANNOT have tactics and AT THE SAME TIME UBER DPS!
One kills the other.
Before you post again, reread the topic, please...
Because these insinuations you made at me are just unfair.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
it is maybe the real problem of sto.
It is, and DPS alone killed it of.
If you can one shot something, you just need no tactics, you only need the fire button.
Amarite?
@rattler2@warpangel
I will not intervene with you two, those are nice posts, I'll just hang out in the back and follow your convo.
Well done so far, chaps!
Klingons don't get drunk.
They just get less sober.
Because it is not ONLY about damage, is it?
It's about skill, it's about defence, tactics, TRIBBLE, reading...
Erm, no, forget reading...
Defense comes from gear, skills and traits... if you hard cap dps - unless you touch only the damage from weapons and epg powers - then you hard cap defense, too. So, there's your first mistake.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
Not to mention that in battlezones tactics have never been there.
Badlands? Just go in, interact if you need to, otherwise trash everything. Done.
Defera? Same as above.
Gon'kra? Gamma? Kobali prime? The Dyson Sphere? Again, same as above.
Capping DPS is NOT capping skills, equipment, ships...
Defense is NOT tied to DPS, both are entirely different codes and amounts.
Dropping DPS will NOT affect your defense, at all.
As for Tactics?
True, those went out the door when uber DPS became a thing, thank you, for pointing that one out.
I forgot to add that to my previous posts.
Valdore Console and Energy Refrequencer are dps based defense.
I'll agree with your point that DPS has crippled tactics in this game, but capping it has serious mechanical issues and just punishes people who have figured out how to do more and more DPS.
I am a newer player. Started back in December. I am at level 65. All my equipment is mk xii green, blue, and purple. I play normal level. Slow grind to get better equipment.
What I experience often in many TFO’s and especially the Battle of Two Suns is either some ace players kill the enemy in just a few shots or drop a giant orange vortex in the center of the map and suck in the Klingons. It makes it hard to get shots with so much rapid destruction.
To play I had to adapt myself to stay away from these aces, go off on my own on the fringes and pick off DaSpu cruisers and Birds of Prey and focus on rescuing escape pods. If I do not do that, and fly amongst the aces, I hardly am able to do much.
So funny thing for me is the challenge is not the enemy, but keeping a distance from the aces of my team so I can do some damage and have fun in the game.
Valdore Console and Energy Refrequencer are dps based defense.
I'll agree with your point that DPS has crippled tactics in this game, but capping it has serious mechanical issues and just punishes people who have figured out how to do more and more DPS.
Well... not really.
DPS values are totally apart from ANYTHING else.
Klingons don't get drunk.
They just get less sober.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
it is maybe the real problem of sto.
Agreed. Again, I don't expect to see proper raids with multiple bosses each of which has more than one phase.
That, I think, would be asking too much, but the things we're being feeded right now? They're so simple it's not even funny. You just need to shoot and, maybe, interact with something.
That's it, that's all the tactics required.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Valdore Console and Energy Refrequencer are dps based defense.
I'll agree with your point that DPS has crippled tactics in this game, but capping it has serious mechanical issues and just punishes people who have figured out how to do more and more DPS.
Well... not really.
DPS values are totally apart from ANYTHING else.
No, they are not
But go on saying that, maybe in a million years that will be true
Also, coming from other games where tactics and UBER DPS coexist perfectly. Why? Because:
a) tactics are actually there
b) tactics cannot be circunvented by brute forse - which is something that they have started to implement in STO with the recent changes done to Infected. But it's not enough
Shame you can't seem to grasp a simple concept, which is that you can't punish players because they put in time and effort to... *shocked gasp* play!
As for your other post... big yawn. You continue to insist on points that are undefendable solely because you don't want to get better and prefers to have other people brought down to your level.
And just a suggestion? When you say stuff like "I gave ideas, not even SUGGESTIONS, and yes, i come up for these, since these are logical" you're implying that your ideas are the only one that works, therefore you ARE suggesting - and demanding - that this is the solution to apply so that the problem might be solved.
Again, hard-capping DPS - which is indeed tied to a lot of other things, same as defense, and you not knowing that shows how much you actually know about the game - is not the solution.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
No, they are not
But go on saying that, maybe in a million years that will be true
Also, coming from other games where tactics and UBER DPS coexist perfectly. Why? Because:
a) tactics are actually there
b) tactics cannot be circunvented by brute forse - which is something that they have started to implement in STO with the recent changes done to Infected. But it's not enough
Shame you can't seem to grasp a simple concept, which is that you can't punish players because they put in time and effort to... *shocked gasp* play!
As for your other post... big yawn. You continue to insist on points that are undefendable solely because you don't want to get better and prefers to have other people brought down to your level.
And just a suggestion? When you say stuff like "I gave ideas, not even SUGGESTIONS, and yes, i come up for these, since these are logical" you're implying that your ideas are the only one that works, therefore you ARE suggesting - and demanding - that this is the solution to apply so that the problem might be solved.
Again, hard-capping DPS - which is indeed tied to a lot of other things, same as defense, and you not knowing that shows how much you actually know about the game - is not the solution.
Are you familiar with either coding and/or modding?
I am.
ALL values ARE COMPLETELY separate and independent of the other.
Changing X will NOT affect Y or Z.
Damage is not defence, not recharge, not pole dancing, nor speed.
Klingons don't get drunk.
They just get less sober.
As far as defense and offense, one can make that happen in the same build. As other have said a mix of skills, traits, specialities and gear. What you are about to to see is what I call the poor man's build for my Maquis raider. I could could improve upon this with some gear change out, and also acquiring the the 6th active doff slot and 5th trait from a fleet. But the one thing you will notice, is that the gear is mostly rep/crafted/episode. The only pieces that aren't the aforementioned are the lukari "oh no heal me console", a phased-poloran dbb(that I accidently equipped when I meant to sell them), the Voice of the Prophets from the Bajoran escort, and plasma storm which came with the raider itself.
Now as far as instance population goes. Here I can tell you, it won't help to lower, especially not any lag. I've been in instances with just 2 people in it, and rubber banding like I'm stuck in some kind of time warp, and I've been in the higher population instances of ESD and Summer Ever, which Loluhnat has the highest population count at 50 per instance, and the game runs smooth as silk. So, it's not going to help at all here.
As for NPC population on like Nimbus, New Rom, Nukara, Defara and such. While instance population can make doing things here a bit of a headache. There two ways once can overcome this. The first one is to beam up and back down, hoping to land in a lower population instance. The second, like all socail/adventure zones, is the instance name top middle of the mini-map. If you double click this, it will bring up the instances for that map. If there's no lower pop one currently, close it, wait a bit, and check again. This requires a bit of patience, but you can usually get to a lower pop instance this way, and then you have all the mobs. Granted, while you wait, you can get any kills you can for endeavors.
Now could Cryptic increase NPC spawn balanced around instance population? Yeah, I'm pretty sure they could.
Are they going to? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. Well, at least not any time soon.
Are you familiar with either coding and/or modding?
I am.
This statement basically declares that you don't intend to have a meaninful discussion or debate because you declare that you have superior knowledge on a given subject, in this case computer code, and therefor no one else knows what they are talking about.
The PROBLEM with making these kinds of declarations is that you can't actually prove that to us. All we see are your words on a screen. Not only that, until that kind of statement comes out we are all on an equal footing. As soon as that statement comes out, the person using it is trying to elevate themselves higher than all those around them.
Intentional or not, it doesn't actually add anything to the discussion whatsoever, and just, as least by appearance to the rest of us, serves to stroke an ego.
I'm not trying to tear you down on this. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't actually help your case. In fact, it may very well hurt it as much as being combative.
There is also the fact that NONE of us actually know anything about the Code for STO in particular. In my experience it is probably best described as speggetti code. Used to be that whenever Cryptic fixed something, the Borg would break. One time Cryptic did a bug fix, and we ended up with Borg Spheres with UBER Emergency Power to Engines that shot them half way across the UNIVERSE.
And this is coming from someone who had trouble coding a simple processor to blink two LED lights in an alternating pattern.
I was doing it right, but my timing was off. My teacher actually showed me an easier way to do it after looking over my work.
Anyways... just wanted to bring that up for future reference. Its ok to have a civil debate, but trying to prove you're right by declaring familiarity with the subject doesn't actually do anything.
That's more than enough with the flamethrowers. Yall need to dial it WAY back. If you folks can't keep it civil I will lock the thread. This is the only time I'm going to say it.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
That's more than enough with the flamethrowers. Yall need to dial it WAY back. If you folks can't keep it civil I will lock the thread. This is the only time I'm going to say it.
True, my bad, I got carried away, my apologies.
Klingons don't get drunk.
They just get less sober.
Valdore Console and Energy Refrequencer are dps based defense.
I'll agree with your point that DPS has crippled tactics in this game, but capping it has serious mechanical issues and just punishes people who have figured out how to do more and more DPS.
Well... not really.
DPS values are totally apart from ANYTHING else.
Yeah, no. And LOL. DPS is rather illusive when trying to predict it (based on gear, time in game, etc). I'd say only about 20% of DPS is more-or-less predictable, based on gear, goodness of your ships, and the like. In fact, DPS is for the most part (that other 80%) entirely related to that 'ANYTHING else.' Piloting skills, and such.
OK: let me make an analogy.
A person stands on a building and jumps down.
We take in account three primary values:
Height of the building.
His mass.
His armour.
His life bar.
Gravity.
Hardness of the floor.
Height x gravity = acceleration wich leads to speed.
Value is A.
Value A x mass = damage upon arrival.
This is Value B.
This damage is now affected by:
Hardness of the floor.
Value C.
Calculate:
Your armour.
Your health.
This becomes now value D of total damage.
And value D can be edited... without touching ANYTHING else.
Note, I am aware this is VERY simplistic, but this is how the system works...
Look it up.
Even simpler put: you alter the numbers you see when shooting a ship, without touching anything else.
Can't be that hard to understand?
Klingons don't get drunk.
They just get less sober.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
OK: let me make an analogy.
A person stands on a building and jumps down.
We take in account three primary values:
Height of the building.
His mass.
His armour.
His life bar.
Gravity.
Hardness of the floor.
Height x gravity = acceleration wich leads to speed.
Value is A.
Value A x mass = damage upon arrival.
This is Value B.
This damage is now affected by:
Hardness of the floor.
Value C.
Calculate:
Your armour.
Your health.
This becomes now value D of total damage.
And value D can be edited... without touching ANYTHING else.
Note, I am aware this is VERY simplistic, but this is how the system works...
Look it up.
Even simpler put: you alter the numbers you see when shooting a ship, without touching anything else.
Can't be that hard to understand?
All the above shows you have no clue. And that's not a flame. But you really appear to know nothing about DPS. DPS, truly is primarily dependent on piloting skills: in what order you activate things, and when exactly, and how good you are are at avoiding small mis-timings. And, of course, literal piloting skills, like how fast you can move, how precise you can land at a specific spot, etc. Doing the math post-hoc is relatively straightforward, as your log will tell you how, and what you did. But predicting your outcome is extremely difficult (like for a Dev).
Also, you'll notice your own DPS has gone up significantly too when in a good team. And that's because DPS is function of dmg over time -- and not just for you alone, but for your entire team. Play in a worse team, and watch your own DPS tank too.
And to make things even more complicated, your DPS can also go down, when you're team is good, but much better than you (basically because you won't be able to get a shot in edge-wise).
Even simpler put: you alter the numbers you see when shooting a ship, without touching anything else.
Can't be that hard to understand?
Yeah, where do they come from? Is it solely the damage from the weapons? Is it from the relative skills? Is it from a console? A set? The fact that you're perfectly aligned so you can shoot with all your weapons? Are you sure that single beam you put in your left slot on the rear arc is shooting? And what about damage coming from exotic abilities? Do you cap them, too, or do you simply cap that character's EPG? What about tactical fleet? Frenzy? All passives you get from the different specializations? Also, do you nerf long-range targeting sensors? What about accuracy? Penetration? Critical Chance and Critical Damage?
As we have tried saying, again and again, DPS is dependent on a lot of different things and, once again, you have just proven you have no idea how any of that works.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Even simpler put: you alter the numbers you see when shooting a ship, without touching anything else.
Can't be that hard to understand?
Yeah, where do they come from? Is it solely the damage from the weapons? Is it from the relative skills? Is it from a console? A set? The fact that you're perfectly aligned so you can shoot with all your weapons? Are you sure that single beam you put in your left slot on the rear arc is shooting? And what about damage coming from exotic abilities? Do you cap them, too, or do you simply cap that character's EPG? What about tactical fleet? Frenzy? All passives you get from the different specializations? Also, do you nerf long-range targeting sensors? What about accuracy? Penetration? Critical Chance and Critical Damage?
As we have tried saying, again and again, DPS is dependent on a lot of different things and, once again, you have just proven you have no idea how any of that works.
It would seem we are in full agreement in this thread. Always nice to see.
No more than 10 players or NPCs are allowed per Instance.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I agree. Time to drop this argument.
Its going nowhere, and getting into the deep mechanics of DPS measurement is only causing a brushfire. As others have said, its not just simple numbers. There are MANY variables that are at play such as traits, abilities, positioning, allies, enemies...
Its not simple at all.
Comments
This makes STO pretty player friendly in accessability. It also means opening up areas of the game not meant to be slammed by high performance builds to high performance builds. Now... one way STO has attempted to combat this in some zones is level scaling. For example Nimbus III is level scaled to the 20s. You can be a lv 65 top geared player, but you're still going to be performing at an approximate equivelent level. And for mission replays, the game actually scales the content up to your level and preferred difficulty level. Except for the space NPCs in the TOS arc for some reason on TOS characters. You get scaled down to first run level, while enemy NPCs are your actual level for some dumb reason.
Anyways... make more content that challenges the top end, you may see the top players actually using that more. Also better level scaling might help curb things a bit in public areas like Battlezones. The only variable there would end up being how well synergized a player's build and tactics are. The level scaling seems to work better on ground though than in space as there aren't as many things synergizing with other things to boost performance.
A hard cap on DPS doesn't help anyone. Its a punishment for overperforming or challenging yourself to go beyond a certain point. Most of these top DPS players do it because they want to see how far they can push their builds. To them, that is fun. Yea to a casual that may not be fun, but some people do enjoy getting into the deep mechanics of squeezing every last decimal point of performance out of a ship. It is as much a puzzle as it is a performance boost. What works with what? What boosts what? How does this affect that?
What a hard DPS cap does... is tell people they are not allowed to have fun that way. That their fun is wrong. That they must conform to a certain playstyle.
Sounds a bit like the reverse of what I've typically stood against, which is the more extreme views on DPS where you MUST fly things a certain way, and a certain way ONLY, or you are playing the game wrong.
That kind of hardline stance on how others play is something I oppose. Fun for all does not mean "my way or the highway".
And there you fall into the common fatal flaw.. looking at things through no perpective other then your own.
On the other side, I have been here week in week out for years. Doing all the events for the 'shineys' playing content, grouping with my fleet and even sometimes spending money to improve and get myself to where I want to be. So from my side, what gives you the right to just come back day one and have everything I have? How is it fair for you and I to be equal when I have put in the effort and you have not?
You see, it cuts both ways. Your solution of 'hard capping DPS' has come up before and it's nothing but a short sided way to try and bring down higher end players so that new and lower geared players don't have to put forth any additional effort. The game already offers missions playable on 3 difficulties, the game is very playable by new players and 'DPS Gods' alike. Battle Zones do tend to throw all types of players together, but that hardly punishes lower geared players. Oh no.. you are now guaranteed to complete the zone in time.. how awful for you.
If you have a problem and your solution is to cap others so you don't have to do anything.. your solution is flawed.
Yeah.. that...
I could have just said that.
And that is also why it remove the incentive to do better, because if you cannot go above that, what's the point?
If all I do, all I try out, amount to the maximum same amount there's no point in trying to improve.
Defense comes from gear, skills and traits... if you hard cap dps - unless you touch only the damage from weapons and epg powers - then you hard cap defense, too. So, there's your first mistake.
Tactics? What tactics? There's very few queues in this game that requires something different than going in and trashing everything in front of you... and most of those queues are completely ignored in favor of easier, auto-completing, timed drivels.
Not to mention that in battlezones tactics have never been there.
Badlands? Just go in, interact if you need to, otherwise trash everything. Done.
Defera? Same as above.
Gon'kra? Gamma? Kobali prime? The Dyson Sphere? Again, same as above.
We don't have to prove you wrong, no matter how many
Or what, you think good DPSers - not even the top scores, mind you - just rely on gear?
And again, as I've already said: there's very few content in this game that requires something different than pure DPS.
But I guess it's easier to come to the forums and shame other people because, through the years, they've put in the time and effort to get where they are now.
I'm not a top DPSer by any means, and while I'd prefer if those capable of finishing an ISA in 24 seconds flat would stay solely on Elite as to avoid making it extremely difficult for other players to not get an AFK penalty, hard-capping DPS is not the solution for the problem.
Give us something to do, with proper tactics and fail conditions, improve the combat log so that it's reliable on every map and not just one, force people to think about what they're doing and we'll start to see the results.
Implementing proper raids in this game is impossible because there will always be a (very vocal) minority, of which you're clearly a member, that will complain loudly that it's too hard and that people that do well should be nerfed.
It's exactly the reason why we are where we are now in the game, with all the new queues being nothing but "sit down somewhere and wait for the queue to finish itself".
But sure, the solution is to hard-cap people that have actually put in the effort to understand how the mechanics works, to find what goes where, what boost what and so and so on... all because "I came back after years of not playing, I can't do anything, therefore I DEMAND that people get brought down to my level so that I won't feel useless".
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
it is maybe the real problem of sto.
I've never seen any game where level scaling worked well. All it usually does is stop struggling players from grinding a few extra levels to make the content easier. Certainly in STO, a lv65 scaled down to 20 isn't anywhere near equal to a real 20.
Nor do I see any reason why people in vastly different stages of the game should be playing the same content to begin with. We have instances and difficulty settings for a reason. They could just make higher-level instances of battlezones and stuff for better players to challenge, so that weaker players could have the easy versions to themselves.
But of course, that would require Cryptic being willing to head off the inevitable complaints that the advanced versions are "too hard" by telling the complainers to play an easier one. Something which they so historically haven't been willing to do with the TFOs, either.
More challenging content yes, but most especially more rewards incentives. It doesn't matter if challenging content exists, as long as it's more profitable for the top players to keep one-shotting the easy content instead.
You have not answered that one.
Sheck for yourself, sir.
Capping DPS is NOT capping skills, equipment, ships...
Defense is NOT tied to DPS, both are entirely different codes and amounts.
Dropping DPS will NOT affect your defense, at all.
As for Tactics?
True, those went out the door when uber DPS became a thing, thank you, for pointing that one out.
I forgot to add that to my previous posts.
If you had read earlier posts, you would have actually seen that I said the very opposite to what you claim here.
And again: one does NOT have to touch ANYTHING else but the outgoing damage.
If I want to change the tire of a car, I change just that, and nothing else.
You seem to affect the whole car for changing a tire.
Also, for specific zones this hardcap can be adjusted, where needed.
Nimbus 3 was brought up, good example.
Well if you want tactics... uber DPS has to go...
Extreme simple logic.
Really, you need to learn to read all posts.
And if you have issues, REread these.
I clearly stated, I did darn well, that I too would 'have to give in', so please... don't do this, OK.
Secondly, ALSO DAMN CLEARLY SAID: I gave ideas, not even SUGGESTIONS, and yes, i come up for these, since these are logical.
It occurs to me, that you do not grasp a simple tiny fact: to fix the issues... one HAS to give in on other things.
One CANNOT have all, you CANNOT have tactics and AT THE SAME TIME UBER DPS!
One kills the other.
Before you post again, reread the topic, please...
Because these insinuations you made at me are just unfair.
It is, and DPS alone killed it of.
If you can one shot something, you just need no tactics, you only need the fire button.
Amarite?
@rattler2 @warpangel
I will not intervene with you two, those are nice posts, I'll just hang out in the back and follow your convo.
Well done so far, chaps!
They just get less sober.
Valdore Console and Energy Refrequencer are dps based defense.
I'll agree with your point that DPS has crippled tactics in this game, but capping it has serious mechanical issues and just punishes people who have figured out how to do more and more DPS.
What I experience often in many TFO’s and especially the Battle of Two Suns is either some ace players kill the enemy in just a few shots or drop a giant orange vortex in the center of the map and suck in the Klingons. It makes it hard to get shots with so much rapid destruction.
To play I had to adapt myself to stay away from these aces, go off on my own on the fringes and pick off DaSpu cruisers and Birds of Prey and focus on rescuing escape pods. If I do not do that, and fly amongst the aces, I hardly am able to do much.
So funny thing for me is the challenge is not the enemy, but keeping a distance from the aces of my team so I can do some damage and have fun in the game.
DPS values are totally apart from ANYTHING else.
They just get less sober.
That, I think, would be asking too much, but the things we're being feeded right now? They're so simple it's not even funny. You just need to shoot and, maybe, interact with something.
That's it, that's all the tactics required.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
But go on saying that, maybe in a million years that will be true
Also, coming from other games where tactics and UBER DPS coexist perfectly. Why? Because:
a) tactics are actually there
b) tactics cannot be circunvented by brute forse - which is something that they have started to implement in STO with the recent changes done to Infected. But it's not enough
Shame you can't seem to grasp a simple concept, which is that you can't punish players because they put in time and effort to... *shocked gasp* play!
As for your other post... big yawn. You continue to insist on points that are undefendable solely because you don't want to get better and prefers to have other people brought down to your level.
And just a suggestion? When you say stuff like "I gave ideas, not even SUGGESTIONS, and yes, i come up for these, since these are logical" you're implying that your ideas are the only one that works, therefore you ARE suggesting - and demanding - that this is the solution to apply so that the problem might be solved.
Again, hard-capping DPS - which is indeed tied to a lot of other things, same as defense, and you not knowing that shows how much you actually know about the game - is not the solution.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Encoded Cypher
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I am.
ALL values ARE COMPLETELY separate and independent of the other.
Changing X will NOT affect Y or Z.
Damage is not defence, not recharge, not pole dancing, nor speed.
They just get less sober.
Now as far as instance population goes. Here I can tell you, it won't help to lower, especially not any lag. I've been in instances with just 2 people in it, and rubber banding like I'm stuck in some kind of time warp, and I've been in the higher population instances of ESD and Summer Ever, which Loluhnat has the highest population count at 50 per instance, and the game runs smooth as silk. So, it's not going to help at all here.
As for NPC population on like Nimbus, New Rom, Nukara, Defara and such. While instance population can make doing things here a bit of a headache. There two ways once can overcome this. The first one is to beam up and back down, hoping to land in a lower population instance. The second, like all socail/adventure zones, is the instance name top middle of the mini-map. If you double click this, it will bring up the instances for that map. If there's no lower pop one currently, close it, wait a bit, and check again. This requires a bit of patience, but you can usually get to a lower pop instance this way, and then you have all the mobs. Granted, while you wait, you can get any kills you can for endeavors.
Now could Cryptic increase NPC spawn balanced around instance population? Yeah, I'm pretty sure they could.
Are they going to? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen. Well, at least not any time soon.
Yes, all values are tied, and excrete a NEW value.
THAT SODDING value can without interfering anything else be reduced.
My God, man.
They just get less sober.
This statement basically declares that you don't intend to have a meaninful discussion or debate because you declare that you have superior knowledge on a given subject, in this case computer code, and therefor no one else knows what they are talking about.
The PROBLEM with making these kinds of declarations is that you can't actually prove that to us. All we see are your words on a screen. Not only that, until that kind of statement comes out we are all on an equal footing. As soon as that statement comes out, the person using it is trying to elevate themselves higher than all those around them.
Intentional or not, it doesn't actually add anything to the discussion whatsoever, and just, as least by appearance to the rest of us, serves to stroke an ego.
I'm not trying to tear you down on this. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't actually help your case. In fact, it may very well hurt it as much as being combative.
There is also the fact that NONE of us actually know anything about the Code for STO in particular. In my experience it is probably best described as speggetti code. Used to be that whenever Cryptic fixed something, the Borg would break. One time Cryptic did a bug fix, and we ended up with Borg Spheres with UBER Emergency Power to Engines that shot them half way across the UNIVERSE.
And this is coming from someone who had trouble coding a simple processor to blink two LED lights in an alternating pattern.
I was doing it right, but my timing was off. My teacher actually showed me an easier way to do it after looking over my work.
Anyways... just wanted to bring that up for future reference. Its ok to have a civil debate, but trying to prove you're right by declaring familiarity with the subject doesn't actually do anything.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
They just get less sober.
Yeah, no. And LOL. DPS is rather illusive when trying to predict it (based on gear, time in game, etc). I'd say only about 20% of DPS is more-or-less predictable, based on gear, goodness of your ships, and the like. In fact, DPS is for the most part (that other 80%) entirely related to that 'ANYTHING else.'
A person stands on a building and jumps down.
We take in account three primary values:
Height of the building.
His mass.
His armour.
His life bar.
Gravity.
Hardness of the floor.
Height x gravity = acceleration wich leads to speed.
Value is A.
Value A x mass = damage upon arrival.
This is Value B.
This damage is now affected by:
Hardness of the floor.
Value C.
Calculate:
Your armour.
Your health.
This becomes now value D of total damage.
And value D can be edited... without touching ANYTHING else.
Note, I am aware this is VERY simplistic, but this is how the system works...
Look it up.
Even simpler put: you alter the numbers you see when shooting a ship, without touching anything else.
Can't be that hard to understand?
They just get less sober.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
All the above shows you have no clue. And that's not a flame. But you really appear to know nothing about DPS. DPS, truly is primarily dependent on piloting skills: in what order you activate things, and when exactly, and how good you are are at avoiding small mis-timings. And, of course, literal piloting skills, like how fast you can move, how precise you can land at a specific spot, etc. Doing the math post-hoc is relatively straightforward, as your log will tell you how, and what you did. But predicting your outcome is extremely difficult (like for a Dev).
Also, you'll notice your own DPS has gone up significantly too when in a good team. And that's because DPS is function of dmg over time -- and not just for you alone, but for your entire team. Play in a worse team, and watch your own DPS tank too.
And to make things even more complicated, your DPS can also go down, when you're team is good, but much better than you (basically because you won't be able to get a shot in edge-wise).
Tl;dr: good luck predicting someone's DPS.
Yeah, where do they come from? Is it solely the damage from the weapons? Is it from the relative skills? Is it from a console? A set? The fact that you're perfectly aligned so you can shoot with all your weapons? Are you sure that single beam you put in your left slot on the rear arc is shooting? And what about damage coming from exotic abilities? Do you cap them, too, or do you simply cap that character's EPG? What about tactical fleet? Frenzy? All passives you get from the different specializations? Also, do you nerf long-range targeting sensors? What about accuracy? Penetration? Critical Chance and Critical Damage?
As we have tried saying, again and again, DPS is dependent on a lot of different things and, once again, you have just proven you have no idea how any of that works.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
It would seem we are in full agreement in this thread. Always nice to see.
No more than 10 players or NPCs are allowed per Instance.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Its going nowhere, and getting into the deep mechanics of DPS measurement is only causing a brushfire. As others have said, its not just simple numbers. There are MANY variables that are at play such as traits, abilities, positioning, allies, enemies...
Its not simple at all.