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✯✯✯ STAR TREK PICARD ✯✯✯ (reactions and discussion WITH SPOILERS)

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    "No hope"? We're seven episodes in, and while things started off on the dark side, the bad guys are getting their plans thwarted every week.

    Did you think that DS9 "wasn't Star Trek" either? Because parts of the Dominion War arc made PIC look like Mister Rogers' Neighborhood!
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  • saurializardsaurializard Member Posts: 4,385 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    starkaos wrote: »
    I agree, the Rikers are IMHO the best example of what Picard is trying to show us. Life isn't perfect, it's messy, tragedy happens, not everyone who should live will, but carry on, push through, and things can work out and you can be happy.

    I have no problem with Riker's kid dying, but the problem is linking his death to the Synth ban. Everything to do with the Synth ban is just idiotic in Star Trek including the fact that the Federation is willing to create a slave race.

    the prequal novel explains they weren't actually complex eneugh to be sentient. although that really should have been specificly said in the show given that people look at them and see "mass produced datas"
    Wait, this wasn't made clear in the show for some people?

    I mean... Just by the "Hell yeah" and "a stick" interactions, you can already see they're even (much) less sentient than the S1 Doctor.
    And that's not even getting into the implications of... pretty much everything about them, from the numbers, their lack of concern of looking identical, their lack of issues about being treated like crud, them being literally stored in a tight room and having to be activated to even function.


    The only thing that should be addressed in the show is why they decided to give them the same body features than a sentient, even sapient, Federation hero who was at the heart of an important trial created to determine if he had a soul, stopped the first attempted Borg assimilation of Earth, and died saving it and the Federation flagship.

    If I ever tried to make a whole industry-worth of janitor robots with Lincoln's beard, distinct wrinkled face and top hat, I think the least of the things I would be worried about would be twitter comments saying I'm insulting him, one of his biggest achievements and a huge chapter in US History.
    Compared, of course to thousands of death threats a day, countless lawsuits, various members of the US executive, legislative, and judicial branches wanting a word or 2 with me, and various assassination attempts.
    And that's assuming I'm not stopped right in my tracks after unveiling the prototype and way before getting the chance to mass-product them.
    #TASforSTO
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    "No hope"? We're seven episodes in, and while things started off on the dark side, the bad guys are getting their plans thwarted every week.

    Did you think that DS9 "wasn't Star Trek" either? Because parts of the Dominion War arc made PIC look like Mister Rogers' Neighborhood!

    when people say "no hope" what they mean is "So far the evidance is none of our old fan favs got a happy ending" and I understand that, thus far we've seen the following characters return: Data/B4 (we find out that there was no hope of B4 turning into Data, too primative brain) Seven of Nine who lost Icheb and is in a personal dark place (that said seven is returning in future episodes so with her we need to remember this is part of her personal journy.) and Will Riker and Deanna Troi, whom are married with a wonderful daughter, and who lost their son due to a rare illness, likely one picked up on some rare world the Titan visted (man maybe children shouldn't be put at risk exploring deep space. how many children likely died when the Borg cube ripped a cylinder sized slice out of the enterprise D?

    so yeah I can get what their saying I just disagree with it. more accuratly would be for them to say "I want to see someone with a happy ending"
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    given the android project was the brain child of 3 people, 2 of whom where Geordi la Forge and Bruce Maddox as such we can explain it in two ways. 1: It was la Forge and Maddox attempting to honor data 2: Data's body was a model they where familer with and where positve they could replicate.

    I suspect it may be a little of both.

    regarding your Abe Lincoln comaprison, ok first of all comparing Data to Lincoln is pretty silly, we dunno how celebrated Data was outside the enterprise crew. he clearly was of great intreast to robotics researchers etc given people have had to explain who data is to sojhi and dajh he clearly isn't the house hold name Abe Lincoln is (EVERYONE knows who Lincoln is, I'm not even American and I know. ) secondly the federation government was the people building the things in the first place. if you constructed a wholel line of robots to help build the greatest fleet the USA had ever produced, and you choose to model said robots after one of the greatest heros of the USA.. WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO ARGUE?! most people'd be saying how awesome it was
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,231 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣
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  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Especially since the writers of threshold though that was just regular evolving like they had no real idea of what evolution was.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    That seems to be the new favorite thing in Hollywood sci-fi. It used to be the ridiculous intelligent virus that takes over people (and often mutates them) in so many different sci-fi shows, and now it seems to be the equally idiotic silicon virus that is making the rounds. The series "Another Life" just used it this season for example
    (that one compounded the idiocy by making the nervous system (minus the brain) of the victims rip out and run around like spidery centipedes before they dropped dead)
    .

  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    westx211 wrote: »
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Especially since the writers of threshold though that was just regular evolving like they had no real idea of what evolution was.

    There might be an environment that evolves or devolves humans into salamanders. However, the majority of Paris' evolutions make no sense not just the salamander. Evolving into an energy-based lifeform makes far more sense than evolving into a species where oxygen is toxic. In order, to evolve into salamanders or develop the ability to breathe a toxic environment requires environmental pressures to force a specific evolutionary change. It is far more likely that Paris didn't evolve, but being in all spaces at once contaminated him with alien genetics instead of Paris going through the various stages of evolution that humans will eventually go through.
    Post edited by starkaos on
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    That seems to be the new favorite thing in Hollywood sci-fi. It used to be the ridiculous intelligent virus that takes over people (and often mutates them) in so many different sci-fi shows, and now it seems to be the equally idiotic silicon virus that is making the rounds. The series "Another Life" just used it this season for example
    (that one compounded the idiocy by making the nervous system (minus the brain) of the victims rip out and run around like spidery centipedes before they dropped dead)
    .

    Another Life is easily not only the worst sci fi show in existence, I think it may be the worst television show in existence as well. Its awe inspiring just how abhorrently awful it is.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • guljarol wrote: »
    was he romulan or vulcan, though?​​

    He was Romulan. He clearly states that, as an example that as a Romulan he was taught to hate humans, but after de-assimilation, in spite of that, he could work together with the cooperative.

    But yeah, if those guys (Frasier's cooperative) never returned, Hugh couldn't have known that there were others. Even if Janeway wrote some kind of report, he wouldn't have access to it.

    Still bears the question, why the guy's brain didn't fry like other assimilated Rommies. Maybe it's more individual matter.

    Indeed it does, though they did say 'something went wrong' with their assimilation, though they didn't say what it was. I assume thats going to be explained at some point

    Also, on the 'hugh should have known what he said wasn't accurate' side of things, I had almost forgotten, they mention romulans being assimilated even in early tng. Remember all those border colonies that got scooped up by what turned out to be the borg? There were fed and romulan colonies involved in that

    On a related note, you have to wonder if the collective started in a similar way to the cooperative and similar claim of benevolence. The cooperative didn't think twice about forcing cooperation when it suited their interests to do so and they did force everyone on the planet into another collective against their will. That is a dangerously slippery slope on their part


    The Collective probably did start out as Cooperative type XB's. XB's that sought eternal life to fulfill their ideology of wanting to see all that could be seen, to be part of all that is able to be connected to. The XB's were probably religious extremists who either developed their augmentations or that a virus infected them and re-coded their DNA to become the essence of Natural Selection.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    guljarol wrote: »
    was he romulan or vulcan, though?​​

    He was Romulan. He clearly states that, as an example that as a Romulan he was taught to hate humans, but after de-assimilation, in spite of that, he could work together with the cooperative.

    But yeah, if those guys (Frasier's cooperative) never returned, Hugh couldn't have known that there were others. Even if Janeway wrote some kind of report, he wouldn't have access to it.

    Still bears the question, why the guy's brain didn't fry like other assimilated Rommies. Maybe it's more individual matter.

    Indeed it does, though they did say 'something went wrong' with their assimilation, though they didn't say what it was. I assume thats going to be explained at some point

    Also, on the 'hugh should have known what he said wasn't accurate' side of things, I had almost forgotten, they mention romulans being assimilated even in early tng. Remember all those border colonies that got scooped up by what turned out to be the borg? There were fed and romulan colonies involved in that

    On a related note, you have to wonder if the collective started in a similar way to the cooperative and similar claim of benevolence. The cooperative didn't think twice about forcing cooperation when it suited their interests to do so and they did force everyone on the planet into another collective against their will. That is a dangerously slippery slope on their part


    The Collective probably did start out as Cooperative type XB's. XB's that sought eternal life to fulfill their ideology of wanting to see all that could be seen, to be part of all that is able to be connected to. The XB's were probably religious extremists who either developed their augmentations or that a virus infected them and re-coded their DNA to become the essence of Natural Selection.

    You mean Cyborgs. XBs are Picard's version of Liberated Borg.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    "No hope"? We're seven episodes in, and while things started off on the dark side, the bad guys are getting their plans thwarted every week.

    Did you think that DS9 "wasn't Star Trek" either? Because parts of the Dominion War arc made PIC look like Mister Rogers' Neighborhood!

    when people say "no hope" what they mean is "So far the evidance is none of our old fan favs got a happy ending" and I understand that, thus far we've seen the following characters return: Data/B4 (we find out that there was no hope of B4 turning into Data, too primative brain) Seven of Nine who lost Icheb and is in a personal dark place (that said seven is returning in future episodes so with her we need to remember this is part of her personal journy.) and Will Riker and Deanna Troi, whom are married with a wonderful daughter, and who lost their son due to a rare illness, likely one picked up on some rare world the Titan visted (man maybe children shouldn't be put at risk exploring deep space. how many children likely died when the Borg cube ripped a cylinder sized slice out of the enterprise D?

    so yeah I can get what their saying I just disagree with it. more accuratly would be for them to say "I want to see someone with a happy ending"

    Most Federation ships do not carry families, that was an odd feature of the Galaxy class in peacetime as part of their possibly ultra-long range scientific mission. In wartime the dependents were offloaded, and 6000 fully equipped troops took their place as the ship switched to its alternate role as a tanky, very heavily armed troop carrier (as seen in DS9). The Titan probably did not carry any dependents at all, just like the Enterprise-E was implied to not carry dependents.

    As for the grimdark stuff, DSC actually fits a watered down definition of it and from what I have been hearing it appears PIC does too. It is not about previous series people getting happy endings, (though that does have some bearing), it is the fact that the implied philosophy of the show fits several of the grimdark definitions (in this case mainly those of Shurin and Bourke). Think about it, in DSC (and possibly PIC) how many times has the light at the end of the tunnel not been an oncoming train?



  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    guljarol wrote: »
    was he romulan or vulcan, though?​​

    He was Romulan. He clearly states that, as an example that as a Romulan he was taught to hate humans, but after de-assimilation, in spite of that, he could work together with the cooperative.

    But yeah, if those guys (Frasier's cooperative) never returned, Hugh couldn't have known that there were others. Even if Janeway wrote some kind of report, he wouldn't have access to it.

    Still bears the question, why the guy's brain didn't fry like other assimilated Rommies. Maybe it's more individual matter.

    Indeed it does, though they did say 'something went wrong' with their assimilation, though they didn't say what it was. I assume thats going to be explained at some point

    Also, on the 'hugh should have known what he said wasn't accurate' side of things, I had almost forgotten, they mention romulans being assimilated even in early tng. Remember all those border colonies that got scooped up by what turned out to be the borg? There were fed and romulan colonies involved in that

    On a related note, you have to wonder if the collective started in a similar way to the cooperative and similar claim of benevolence. The cooperative didn't think twice about forcing cooperation when it suited their interests to do so and they did force everyone on the planet into another collective against their will. That is a dangerously slippery slope on their part


    The Collective probably did start out as Cooperative type XB's. XB's that sought eternal life to fulfill their ideology of wanting to see all that could be seen, to be part of all that is able to be connected to. The XB's were probably religious extremists who either developed their augmentations or that a virus infected them and re-coded their DNA to become the essence of Natural Selection.

    That theme actually goes back as far as TOS, the Vaalians ("The Apple") and the inhabitants of Beta III ("Return of the Archons") were part of a biological/machine cooperative that slipped into a sort of machine-ruled collective, though they were not quite cyborgs in the usual sense. Roddenberry was a humanist so that kind of technological transhumanism made for a very creepy evil for a "warning" style story in his point of view.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    Well, I think I implied/inferred that pretty clearly in what I said, but maybe it should be stressed. When you add in the positronic thing that the boy supposedly needed it makes even less sense. Why is an android specific part useful to fight a virus, any virus?

    I mean it sounds like someone saying your dog broke his fender, so you need to take it to get a new operating system installed.

    What would have made more sense is to say the boy had some unusual brain disease, maybe just some injury, and they need to hook his body up to and install his consciousness into a positronic brain while they regrow/do surgery on his brain. Then they can say that because of the android ban, they destroyed all existing positronic brains and they were trying to rush build a new one, but without any of the facilities that once built androids, they had to start from scratch and didn't quite make it in time.

    While it would still be sad, that scenario would stop the Federation from being the draconic badguy when it tries to help and fix the problem, and it could be used as an excuse to loosen the law, because there were unforseen consequences, and save lives in the future which gives it a minor positive note to the situation, not the meaningless tragedy it is.
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Yeah that was definitely bad. If they had realized how bad it was, they could have quickly fixed it by having Janeway wake up abruptly after a nightmare. "Last time I try Neelix's coffee."

    At least Threshold was one episode, not ten. At this point STP feels chock full of filler because so many of the episodes just don't even matter to the plot.
  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
    > @foxrockssocks said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Well, I think I implied/inferred that pretty clearly in what I said, but maybe it should be stressed. When you add in the positronic thing that the boy supposedly needed it makes even less sense. Why is an android specific part useful to fight a virus, any virus?
    >
    > I mean it sounds like someone saying your dog broke his fender, so you need to take it to get a new operating system installed.
    >
    > What would have made more sense is to say the boy had some unusual brain disease, maybe just some injury, and they need to hook his body up to and install his consciousness into a positronic brain while they regrow/do surgery on his brain. Then they can say that because of the android ban, they destroyed all existing positronic brains and they were trying to rush build a new one, but without any of the facilities that once built androids, they had to start from scratch and didn't quite make it in time.
    >
    > While it would still be sad, that scenario would stop the Federation from being the draconic badguy when it tries to help and fix the problem, and it could be used as an excuse to loosen the law, because there were unforseen consequences, and save lives in the future which gives it a minor positive note to the situation, not the meaningless tragedy it is.
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Yeah that was definitely bad. If they had realized how bad it was, they could have quickly fixed it by having Janeway wake up abruptly after a nightmare. "Last time I try Neelix's coffee."
    >
    > At least Threshold was one episode, not ten. At this point STP feels chock full of filler because so many of the episodes just don't even matter to the plot.

    I think you're not quite understanding the issue with the silicon virus.

    Human beings are biologically incompatible with silicon based viruses. And I don't mean like we'd be hurt by it. No, I mean literally it is biologically impossible, no matter what happens for a silicon virus to affect us, because we are carbon based lifeforms. A silicon virus would need silicon based cells in order to replicate and infect. Inside a human being(or any carbon based lifeform) such a virus would just die because it physically can't reproduce. And there is no level of looking someone up to a positronic brain, or getting them cybernetics or anything like that that could change it, a silicon virus just can't hurt carbon life.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    Well, I think I implied/inferred that pretty clearly in what I said, but maybe it should be stressed. When you add in the positronic thing that the boy supposedly needed it makes even less sense. Why is an android specific part useful to fight a virus, any virus?

    I mean it sounds like someone saying your dog broke his fender, so you need to take it to get a new operating system installed.

    What would have made more sense is to say the boy had some unusual brain disease, maybe just some injury, and they need to hook his body up to and install his consciousness into a positronic brain while they regrow/do surgery on his brain. Then they can say that because of the android ban, they destroyed all existing positronic brains and they were trying to rush build a new one, but without any of the facilities that once built androids, they had to start from scratch and didn't quite make it in time.

    While it would still be sad, that scenario would stop the Federation from being the draconic badguy when it tries to help and fix the problem, and it could be used as an excuse to loosen the law, because there were unforseen consequences, and save lives in the future which gives it a minor positive note to the situation, not the meaningless tragedy it is.
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Yeah that was definitely bad. If they had realized how bad it was, they could have quickly fixed it by having Janeway wake up abruptly after a nightmare. "Last time I try Neelix's coffee."

    At least Threshold was one episode, not ten. At this point STP feels chock full of filler because so many of the episodes just don't even matter to the plot.

    True, it makes no sense whatsoever as a "silicon virus". I think the writer who came up with that virus nonsense is confusing nanites with a virus.

    A virus is (to simplify it) a string of DNA wrapped in a natural insertion tool. It depends totally on the host cells to replicate, and since it is the hijacked host cells doing all the work the inserted DNA cannot force them to make anything the cells cannot naturally make.

    Nanites on the other hand are more self-contained and do not depend on hijacking the host cells, so they can in theory break down cells for raw materials to build something entirely different. Technically there still would not be enough silicon and metals and whatnot in human cells to produce the cyborg modifications you see in Borg, but since they do not have to stay internal they could leach it from the surroundings so the Borg stuff is at least remotely plausible.


    One suggestion for that unusual disease could some sort of prion disease that they could get rid of but not quickly enough to save some essential part of the brain so it would have to be replaced with positronics like Bashier did in that DS9 episode where they had to keep a negotiator going while his body was breaking down. Such a procedure on a child might require some kind of nanite support that turns out to have been illegally developed from Borg tech or something which tragically gets shut down by the Federation medical board or whatever just before the boy can get it, and that could have been the tie-in to the conspiracy the show apparently revolves around.

    And a prion disease could even be caused by some kind of exposure to exotic particles or even a tiny, unnoticed billions-to-one-odds transporter error.

    The "chock full of filler" feel is one of the potential pitfalls of narrow format serials that are not naturally complex enough to support the number of hours they need to fill. That is why serials fell into disfavor for TV outside of soap operas and kid shows back in the late '50s in the first place.

    Hybrids that are based on episodic format but with strong serial threads (like Babylon5) are a best of both worlds solution since they are far less susceptible to the problem (viewers are not expecting every single thing to have bearing on the main plot for one instance) but they have problems when there are not enough episodes per season to support both self-contained stories and the metaplot threads (which, along with the shortening "hour" because more time is given to commercials, is probably why the serial is returning in "cable" and streaming shows with so few episodes per season).
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    starkaos wrote: »

    They weren't complex enough to be sapient not sentient. The Doctor was sentient during the first season of Voyager, but sentient and sapient in later seasons. So without standard memory wipes or some other method of limiting sapience, then the Synths could have become sapient as well.

    Love this. Sapience here must mean something closer to a lived wisdom vs. sentient awareness of person-hood... Wiki uses this third definition..


    From wiktionary:

    "1. Attempting to appear wise or discerning.
    2. (dated) Possessing wisdom and discernment; wise, learned.
    3, (chiefly science fiction) Of a species or life-form, possessing intelligence or self-awareness.
    Synonyms"

    This is new headcannon tech for me... So to clarify: Is the wisdom from experience ``a posteriori`` it is not something the EMH had in all of its medical libraries? Do you have other examples or sources for this sapience-sentience dichotomy?
  • qultuqqultuq Member Posts: 988 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    westx211 wrote: »
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Especially since the writers of threshold though that was just regular evolving like they had no real idea of what evolution was.

    I think though, most biologists think of evolution as more just random. Evolution vs. De-evolution are value judgement based on some idea of what "more favorable life are" not just wow some gene mutated. Lets see how that works-- or the process that actually occurs in nature. Would have to watch the episode again, but I remember it being bad. That time Geordi transformed into a chameleon was way better. Maybe it just felt more novel because I was younger...
  • crypticarmsmancrypticarmsman Member Posts: 4,102 Arc User
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    Well, I think I implied/inferred that pretty clearly in what I said, but maybe it should be stressed. When you add in the positronic thing that the boy supposedly needed it makes even less sense. Why is an android specific part useful to fight a virus, any virus?

    I mean it sounds like someone saying your dog broke his fender, so you need to take it to get a new operating system installed.

    What would have made more sense is to say the boy had some unusual brain disease, maybe just some injury, and they need to hook his body up to and install his consciousness into a positronic brain while they regrow/do surgery on his brain. Then they can say that because of the android ban, they destroyed all existing positronic brains and they were trying to rush build a new one, but without any of the facilities that once built androids, they had to start from scratch and didn't quite make it in time.

    While it would still be sad, that scenario would stop the Federation from being the draconic badguy when it tries to help and fix the problem, and it could be used as an excuse to loosen the law, because there were unforseen consequences, and save lives in the future which gives it a minor positive note to the situation, not the meaningless tragedy it is.
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Yeah that was definitely bad. If they had realized how bad it was, they could have quickly fixed it by having Janeway wake up abruptly after a nightmare. "Last time I try Neelix's coffee."

    At least Threshold was one episode, not ten. At this point STP feels chock full of filler because so many of the episodes just don't even matter to the plot.

    True, it makes no sense whatsoever as a "silicon virus". I think the writer who came up with that virus nonsense is confusing nanites with a virus.

    A virus is (to simplify it) a string of DNA wrapped in a natural insertion tool. It depends totally on the host cells to replicate, and since it is the hijacked host cells doing all the work the inserted DNA cannot force them to make anything the cells cannot naturally make.

    Nanites on the other hand are more self-contained and do not depend on hijacking the host cells, so they can in theory break down cells for raw materials to build something entirely different. Technically there still would not be enough silicon and metals and whatnot in human cells to produce the cyborg modifications you see in Borg, but since they do not have to stay internal they could leach it from the surroundings so the Borg stuff is at least remotely plausible.


    One suggestion for that unusual disease could some sort of prion disease that they could get rid of but not quickly enough to save some essential part of the brain so it would have to be replaced with positronics like Bashier did in that DS9 episode where they had to keep a negotiator going while his body was breaking down. Such a procedure on a child might require some kind of nanite support that turns out to have been illegally developed from Borg tech or something which tragically gets shut down by the Federation medical board or whatever just before the boy can get it, and that could have been the tie-in to the conspiracy the show apparently revolves around.

    And a prion disease could even be caused by some kind of exposure to exotic particles or even a tiny, unnoticed billions-to-one-odds transporter error.

    The "chock full of filler" feel is one of the potential pitfalls of narrow format serials that are not naturally complex enough to support the number of hours they need to fill. That is why serials fell into disfavor for TV outside of soap operas and kid shows back in the late '50s in the first place.

    Hybrids that are based on episodic format but with strong serial threads (like Babylon5) are a best of both worlds solution since they are far less susceptible to the problem (viewers are not expecting every single thing to have bearing on the main plot for one instance) but they have problems when there are not enough episodes per season to support both self-contained stories and the metaplot threads (which, along with the shortening "hour" because more time is given to commercials, is probably why the serial is returning in "cable" and streaming shows with so few episodes per season).

    Lets see they have a Transporter that can flawlessly (in seconds) convert your billions of cells to energy; transport it via a beam; and reassemble all those billions of cells perfectly (and you can even still talk during the process) -- yet, a Silicon virus is "too ridiculous" for Trek...okay...;)
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  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
    > @crypticarmsman said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Lets see they have a Transporter that can flawlessly (in seconds) convert your billions of cells to energy; transport it via a beam; and reassemble all those billions of cells perfectly (and you can even still talk during the process) -- yet, a Silicon virus is "too ridiculous" for Trek...okay...;)

    You're misunderstanding and ignoring the other posts. A silicon virus isn't ridiculous. In face as we know silicon based life is possible, its 100% possible that a silicon virus could or already does exist. The problem is... as I pointed out in another post SILICON VIRUSES ARE INCOMPATIBLE WITH CARBON LIFE. There is absolutely no way a silicon pathogen could ever harm a carbon lifeform as its incapable of interacting with carbon cells(if it wasn't a virus them maybe an argument could be made for it, but with how viruses work it's just not possible). That is why it's ridiculous.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • olddad78#2157 olddad78 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    I dont know guys.... Girls get sillyconed implants all the time.... Every day...

    They use sillycone for a reason. Its very compatible. And sometimes gals get an infection from the silicone implant. Have even died.

    So, somehow the infection able to take hold.....
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    I dont know guys.... Girls get sillyconed implants all the time.... Every day...

    They use sillycone for a reason. Its very compatible. And sometimes gals get an infection from the silicone implant. Have even died.

    So, somehow the infection able to take hold.....

    No, they use silicone implants because the silicone does not interact with body processes, it is essentially inert as far as the human body is concerned. The infections have nothing to do with the silicone itself, what happens is that normal infection organisms get into the capsule around the implant just out of reach of antibodies and produce more organisms that attack the body, it is the same sort of infection that happens to metal joints and other foreign objects inside the body.

    Those infection organisms are larger and more self-sufficient than a virus, they tend to poison the body and divide to reproduce, not highjack cells to manufacture more of themselves like a virus does. Carbon based cells cannot possibly produce silicon based viruses, and even if the silicon virus contained DNA instead of some other coding medium it probably would not be readable by those cells so the virus would have no way to multiply in a carbon based body.

    It would be like pouring lumps of coal or uranium into your internal combustion engine powered car's gas tank and expecting the engine to be able to run because there is a "fuel" in the tank even though it is totally unusable by the car's engine.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    westx211 wrote: »
    > @foxrockssocks said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Well, I think I implied/inferred that pretty clearly in what I said, but maybe it should be stressed. When you add in the positronic thing that the boy supposedly needed it makes even less sense. Why is an android specific part useful to fight a virus, any virus?
    >
    > I mean it sounds like someone saying your dog broke his fender, so you need to take it to get a new operating system installed.
    >
    > What would have made more sense is to say the boy had some unusual brain disease, maybe just some injury, and they need to hook his body up to and install his consciousness into a positronic brain while they regrow/do surgery on his brain. Then they can say that because of the android ban, they destroyed all existing positronic brains and they were trying to rush build a new one, but without any of the facilities that once built androids, they had to start from scratch and didn't quite make it in time.
    >
    > While it would still be sad, that scenario would stop the Federation from being the draconic badguy when it tries to help and fix the problem, and it could be used as an excuse to loosen the law, because there were unforseen consequences, and save lives in the future which gives it a minor positive note to the situation, not the meaningless tragedy it is.
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Yeah that was definitely bad. If they had realized how bad it was, they could have quickly fixed it by having Janeway wake up abruptly after a nightmare. "Last time I try Neelix's coffee."
    >
    > At least Threshold was one episode, not ten. At this point STP feels chock full of filler because so many of the episodes just don't even matter to the plot.

    I think you're not quite understanding the issue with the silicon virus.

    Human beings are biologically incompatible with silicon based viruses. And I don't mean like we'd be hurt by it. No, I mean literally it is biologically impossible, no matter what happens for a silicon virus to affect us, because we are carbon based lifeforms. A silicon virus would need silicon based cells in order to replicate and infect. Inside a human being(or any carbon based lifeform) such a virus would just die because it physically can't reproduce. And there is no level of looking someone up to a positronic brain, or getting them cybernetics or anything like that that could change it, a silicon virus just can't hurt carbon life.

    No, I understand that completely. That is why the silicon virus annoys me so much to post about it.

    I was suggesting a different illness in this post to still keep the theme of why the boy died with side effects of the android ban.
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    Well, I think I implied/inferred that pretty clearly in what I said, but maybe it should be stressed. When you add in the positronic thing that the boy supposedly needed it makes even less sense. Why is an android specific part useful to fight a virus, any virus?

    I mean it sounds like someone saying your dog broke his fender, so you need to take it to get a new operating system installed.

    What would have made more sense is to say the boy had some unusual brain disease, maybe just some injury, and they need to hook his body up to and install his consciousness into a positronic brain while they regrow/do surgery on his brain. Then they can say that because of the android ban, they destroyed all existing positronic brains and they were trying to rush build a new one, but without any of the facilities that once built androids, they had to start from scratch and didn't quite make it in time.

    While it would still be sad, that scenario would stop the Federation from being the draconic badguy when it tries to help and fix the problem, and it could be used as an excuse to loosen the law, because there were unforseen consequences, and save lives in the future which gives it a minor positive note to the situation, not the meaningless tragedy it is.
    The death of Riker's child is so utterly unbelievable, it is just contrived. A silicon virus kills carbon life forms with only trace amounts of silicon in their bodies, and didn't affect the parents?
    You left out step 1: how does a silicon based virus affect a humanoid at all? This isn't the first time in Star Trek the idea has been used but it was dumb the first time. How can a silicon based organism replicate in an environment devoid of silicon(IE the inside of a person)? Human biochemistry doesn't include silicon at all.

    This was definitely a big plot hole, but at least it's not as bad as humans devolving into salamanders like in Threshold 🤣

    Yeah that was definitely bad. If they had realized how bad it was, they could have quickly fixed it by having Janeway wake up abruptly after a nightmare. "Last time I try Neelix's coffee."

    At least Threshold was one episode, not ten. At this point STP feels chock full of filler because so many of the episodes just don't even matter to the plot.

    True, it makes no sense whatsoever as a "silicon virus". I think the writer who came up with that virus nonsense is confusing nanites with a virus.

    A virus is (to simplify it) a string of DNA wrapped in a natural insertion tool. It depends totally on the host cells to replicate, and since it is the hijacked host cells doing all the work the inserted DNA cannot force them to make anything the cells cannot naturally make.

    Nanites on the other hand are more self-contained and do not depend on hijacking the host cells, so they can in theory break down cells for raw materials to build something entirely different. Technically there still would not be enough silicon and metals and whatnot in human cells to produce the cyborg modifications you see in Borg, but since they do not have to stay internal they could leach it from the surroundings so the Borg stuff is at least remotely plausible.


    One suggestion for that unusual disease could some sort of prion disease that they could get rid of but not quickly enough to save some essential part of the brain so it would have to be replaced with positronics like Bashier did in that DS9 episode where they had to keep a negotiator going while his body was breaking down. Such a procedure on a child might require some kind of nanite support that turns out to have been illegally developed from Borg tech or something which tragically gets shut down by the Federation medical board or whatever just before the boy can get it, and that could have been the tie-in to the conspiracy the show apparently revolves around.

    And a prion disease could even be caused by some kind of exposure to exotic particles or even a tiny, unnoticed billions-to-one-odds transporter error.

    The "chock full of filler" feel is one of the potential pitfalls of narrow format serials that are not naturally complex enough to support the number of hours they need to fill. That is why serials fell into disfavor for TV outside of soap operas and kid shows back in the late '50s in the first place.

    Hybrids that are based on episodic format but with strong serial threads (like Babylon5) are a best of both worlds solution since they are far less susceptible to the problem (viewers are not expecting every single thing to have bearing on the main plot for one instance) but they have problems when there are not enough episodes per season to support both self-contained stories and the metaplot threads (which, along with the shortening "hour" because more time is given to commercials, is probably why the serial is returning in "cable" and streaming shows with so few episodes per season).

    Lets see they have a Transporter that can flawlessly (in seconds) convert your billions of cells to energy; transport it via a beam; and reassemble all those billions of cells perfectly (and you can even still talk during the process) -- yet, a Silicon virus is "too ridiculous" for Trek...okay...;)

    Yes. Silicon in the human body is an absolute tiny fraction of a percent. Unless the Riker kid was eating sand, there is no way his body could exist as a food source for a silicon based lifeform to reproduce, even a microscopic one. A silicon virus could easily enter our bodies at any time and do nothing at all, because it can't do anything besides starve to death. Even carbon based diseases may have no effect on different species.

    Transporters aren't flawless. Mirror, mirror showed us that in TOS, and transporter accidents were a recurring thing in the series. Ent even showed us how dangerous they were at first, and how well they have refined the tech over time.

    Is it magic? Yes. It is very much magic. It is, however, theoretically possible to have site to site instantaneous transport. We have no idea how it works, as it is way beyond our science and capabilities in the present day. ST transporters are advanced tech we have yet to discover, assuming it is possible at all, just like those tiny hand held communicators were. Now we have cell phones.
  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,950 Arc User
    Silicon in the human body is an absolute tiny fraction of a percent. Unless the Riker kid was eating sand, there is no way his body could exist as a food source for a silicon based lifeform to reproduce, even a microscopic one. A silicon virus could easily enter our bodies at any time and do nothing at all, because it can't do anything besides starve to death. Even carbon based diseases may have no effect on different species.

    They never said what the virus actually did, only that it caused a fatal disease. Maybe it's mere presence caused issues with cellular functions or triggered some kind of autoimmune disease. Needing a positronic matrix to cure it is the part that doesn't make sense to me.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    coldnapalm wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    "No hope"? We're seven episodes in, and while things started off on the dark side, the bad guys are getting their plans thwarted every week.

    Did you think that DS9 "wasn't Star Trek" either? Because parts of the Dominion War arc made PIC look like Mister Rogers' Neighborhood!

    We are 7 episodes into a 10 episode season. So...yeah you can draw some conclusions at this point.

    It's called "moving the goal posts". First, it's "it's only the first episode, you can't judge yet". Next it's "it's only the first season, you can't judge yet". No matter how many episodes or seasons there are, the goal posts will always be moved further.

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  • westx211westx211 Member Posts: 42,206 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    @foxrockssocks Sorry that was meant to be me quoting Cryptic armsman apparently I quoted you on accident instead.

    Alos EvilMark, it doesn't matter what the virus did, Silicon is incompatible with carbon, there is literally no way a carbon based lifeform could be harmed by a silicon based virus. The cells just aren't compatible. Its presence wouldn't do jack TRIBBLE to a carbon life form it is 100% incapable of doing anything in any way shape or form to a carbon lifeform. It wouldn't even trigger an autoimmune disease or maybe even an immune response since our cells are incapable of interacting with silicon cells.
    Men are not punished for their sins, but by them.
  • hawku001xhawku001x Member Posts: 10,758 Arc User
    I'll probably put my sub on hiatus after this month and until Discovery.
  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,963 Arc User
    Did you really cancel your cbs because of Picard, or did you cancel it because there aren't any shows you want to watch?

    One would be a nonsensical spiteful reaction that would deserve ridicule for the attempt at stirring up drama, the other... standard operating procedure for streaming services and barely warrants a post.
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