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✯✯✯ STAR TREK PICARD ✯✯✯ (reactions and discussion WITH SPOILERS)

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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    The whole "the foe was unarmed and defenseless therefore killing them is wrong" always makes me laugh WHEN the villain has been shown to be an unrepentant monster with various evil minions still under their orders and who makes it clear they will keep doing their monstrous actions once they get the chance.

    In Star Trek? Yes, it does seem out of place. In other sci fi? Not so much.

    Did she have to vaporize her? Nope. Easily could have taken her in and, you know, let the courts decide. Is that not the Federation way?
    They're not in Federation space. And Seven isn't Starfleet.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    flash525 wrote: »
    Regarding the style of the Picard show, and I suppose to some degree, both Discovery and the later seasons of DS9, there's only so much peace loving you can do with a fictional show. Roddenberry had this utopian vision for humanity, and that was great, but lets be realistic here; if we ever reach the stars, we're going to be more like the Terran Empire than we are the Federation.

    Greed, Power and Resources are always going to be at the forefront of what humanity aspire toward - not all of us, but the few who just so happen to control (one way or another) the many. You can look at any nation on Earth today, and for the most part, it's the minority in power that're controlling the majority below them. It's always been that way, and it'll always be that way. Space travel and recolonisation isn't going to change that.

    As much as Trek is fictional, I find I prefer it when it's more realistic, and I further feel that the dark and gritty episodes of Trek are that realism which Roddenberry didn't want to deal with, which I suppose is ironic as he was hardly a saint himself, but we'll not go there.

    Star Trek of old (so TOS and TNG) I don't believe would appeal to the audience of today. We've gotta' remember, it's not just the Picard show that's gone dark and gritty; there's plenty of other space opera shows that have gone that route too, because that's what people are going to tune in and watch. Despite what some people choose to believe, the audience of today is very different from the audience of 25/30+ years ago.

    Star Trek Discovery and Star Trek Picard do what they need too, both for their targeted audience, and for the times we're in.

    You are right in that the current Hollywood sci-fi trend towards grimdark is a case of running out of ideas (though you would be surprised at how much more "peace loving" they actually could do if they put their minds to it). Like most creative pursuits though it is not really a case of having covered all possible terrain, it is more that they are running low on things visible from the rut they are currently travelling in across that creative terrain.

    And part of what is causing those ruts is a strange sounding truth about Hollywood: the audience is not the primary customer. Instead, due to the way it is set up it is (and pretty much always has been) the executives of the big studios and networks who are the customer. The industry is a big tangle of contractors, subcontractors and supply chains, and what exactly is made in Hollywood comes down to a surprisingly small number of people. The trends are not so much reflective of the tastes of the overall viewership pool (which a number of studies indicate does not change that much except for fads), it is more a matter of the tastes of the execs (and to some degree the prevailing market analysis theories).

    I do not know why people keep confusing post-scarcity for utopia. Roddenberry said numerous times that the Federation is not a utopia, they just do not have as much crime, corruption, and social divisiveness because people's basic needs are met without having to turn to crime or resort to hoarding to close the gap and make sure the wolf does not come sniffing at one's door. There are still plenty of stories to be told in that kind of environment (though not as many of them are typical cop stories as there are today).

    And Roddenberry was not trying to avoid realism at all, what is realistic for today's rampant inequality situation is not realistic for a post-scarcity, nearly classless, society.

    On the style and tone side, while Hollywood's version of sci-fi realism is fine for some things it is not appropriate for all of them. The idea that the future looks just like today, only with smaller more powerful versions of the (mostly) same gadgets is actually not any more realistic than the sci-fi futurist styles. And that is true regardless of whether it is optimistic or dark.

    Novel based sci-fi runs the entire gambit, and you can find movies that have looks varying away from the norm, but TV series designers seem to think that a bridge that looks like a submarine mated with a hotel lobby is about the only way to go anymore, which is a shame since there are so many other styles to choose from for variety.

    In general plot writing, Hollywood science-fiction is going though the same kind of phases as the comic book industry did, it just that the industry is bigger and cycles slower.


  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    So now Seven is a crazy murderer. I'm not sure why that is remotely believable. She doesn't even try to save Icheb.
    Ah yes, with all of her vast medical expertise, and ready access to advanced surgical equipment - oh, wait.

    Icheb was dying. Don't know how much more plain it could have been made, apart from dialog along the lines of, "Oh, no, Icheb! You're dying!" "Yes, I'm dying. You can't stop it. You're a vigilante, not a doctor." "Oh, my poor dying Icheb! You're going to die!"

    The only equipment she carried on that mission was a phaser. All she was able to do was make his death quick and painless; the only alternative was leaving it slow and painful. What, precisely, did you expect Seven the Fenris Ranger to do? Call the Voyager to beam them up?

    I don't know, I guess you're right. It's not like there was a ship nearby with an advanced EMH that she could have tried to contact.
    And what ship would that have been, exactly? This was a flashback - she didn't go down from the La Sirena to find Icheb.
    I don't imagine injecting him with some fresh borg nanites could have rebuilt anything either.
    Probably not, because nanites are about repurposing systems for the benefit of the Borg Collective - they tended to simply kill drones injured on missions. Anything too badly injured to fight doesn't seem to have concerned them.
    Surely none of the tools in the room could have been useful either.
    Describe the surgical techniques needed to rescue a former Borg who had had most of his implants violently removed without either anaesthesia or concern for his surviving the procedure. Be specific. Should be easy, since you expect a former astrographer turned vigilante to know exactly how to proceed while enemy forces are closing in.

    Actually I assume that every ship big enough for a med bay has an advanced EMH at this point in time. Voyager showed us they have ships that can be run solely by EMHs and computers (Prometheus) so the benefits of an EMH are obvious. Any populated planet is likely to have ships within communication range. This is known, colonized space, even if not Federation space. Chances are it is within range of some traders, who would almost certainly have an EMH over an actual doctor. There might even be a Starfleet ship in range.

    Nanites built his Borg parts in the first place, destroying some existing organs. I'm sure they could be used to replace what was lost. It isn't unreasonable to imagine that.

    And I agree, she wouldn't know what to do as far as surgeries, the equipment though, might. It is obviously medical gear with some tweaks, and almost certainly came with some default programming that she could reset, and try to get it to perform medically.

    Again though, the point isn't that she should succeed, the point is that she should have tried something, anything. She shouldn't have just killed him. There were things to try, even if they were doomed to failure.
  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    However I loved what they did with Captain Pike and thought that actor portrayed him very well. Made me wonder why CBS, Paramount, or Viacom seems so disinterested in just doing the actual prequel to TOS covering Pike's tenure on the Enterprise with a younger Spock?
    There's no denying Anson's Pike was a highlight of Discovery's Season 2, and there's still time for CBS or whoever to get a Pike series underway, however I'm concerned that they'll miss their obvious window with this. It should've been picked up by now if it was going to happen.
    That being said, Ethan Peck is no Zachary Quinto. Peck did not pull off his role at all, yet I daresay that "as written" the character of Spock was not included nor present during their second season? Would like to have seen more of Number One, Romijn did well with her limited screen time.
    I thought Ethan did a fine job. Gotta' remember, he wasn't playing Lenord's or Zachary's Spock (both of whom relied on logic). Ethan's Spock was torn between logic and emotion, and so the playing of the character required something a little different.
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    flash525 wrote: »
    However I loved what they did with Captain Pike and thought that actor portrayed him very well. Made me wonder why CBS, Paramount, or Viacom seems so disinterested in just doing the actual prequel to TOS covering Pike's tenure on the Enterprise with a younger Spock?
    There's no denying Anson's Pike was a highlight of Discovery's Season 2, and there's still time for CBS or whoever to get a Pike series underway, however I'm concerned that they'll miss their obvious window with this. It should've been picked up by now if it was going to happen.

    Unfortunately true, all the signs definitely point to CBS having no interest in spinning off a Pike series. While making one seems like a no brainer since the interest is high and they already have the sets they are probably concerned by the still considerable error of closure between DSC and TOS aesthetics and history (along with the specter of Pike's accident), the fanbase turmoil effect of which of will of course only get worse the closer the timeline approaches TOS. On the other hand, it is possible they are waiting for some resolution in DSC to happen, like a paradox getting resolved that resets the timeline to something reasonably close to TOS, but that is highly doubtful.
    flash525 wrote: »
    That being said, Ethan Peck is no Zachary Quinto. Peck did not pull off his role at all, yet I daresay that "as written" the character of Spock was not included nor present during their second season? Would like to have seen more of Number One, Romijn did well with her limited screen time.
    I thought Ethan did a fine job. Gotta' remember, he wasn't playing Lenord's or Zachary's Spock (both of whom relied on logic). Ethan's Spock was torn between logic and emotion, and so the playing of the character required something a little different.

    Technically Peck is playing Nimoy's Spock, the one in the early to mid 2250s who "briefly explored" his human side. The changes could be played out as trauma from his capture and whatnot, and a Pike series could have him slowly retreating into logic to deal with it long term as part of his thread.
    Post edited by phoenixc#0738 on
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    Alot of folks are pissed not just that they killed Icheb, but at the utter way they disrespected the actor who played him for years, that really damaged the show for me.

    I like 90% of Picard, but that was serious uncool, poorly done, and they didn't even have the basic human decency to give the actor a heads up before time. WTF is wrong with these people, they owe him a huge apology. He even thought they might cast him for season 2 of Picard until he saw them kill his character, played by someone else, and not even the actor who briefly played the older Icheb on Voyager! Shameful.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    > @lordgyor said:
    > Alot of folks are pissed not just that they killed Icheb, but at the utter way they disrespected the actor who played him for years, that really damaged the show for me.
    >
    > I like 90% of Picard, but that was serious uncool, poorly done, and they didn't even have the basic human decency to give the actor a heads up before time. WTF is wrong with these people, they owe him a huge apology. He even thought they might cast him for season 2 of Picard until he saw them kill his character, played by someone else, and not even the actor who briefly played the older Icheb on Voyager! Shameful.

    There’s a rather specific reason he wasn’t asked back. He came out in support of Kevin Spacey and victim blamed Anthony Rapp.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    khan5000 wrote: »
    > @lordgyor said:
    > Alot of folks are pissed not just that they killed Icheb, but at the utter way they disrespected the actor who played him for years, that really damaged the show for me.
    >
    > I like 90% of Picard, but that was serious uncool, poorly done, and they didn't even have the basic human decency to give the actor a heads up before time. WTF is wrong with these people, they owe him a huge apology. He even thought they might cast him for season 2 of Picard until he saw them kill his character, played by someone else, and not even the actor who briefly played the older Icheb on Voyager! Shameful.

    There’s a rather specific reason he wasn’t asked back. He came out in support of Kevin Spacey and victim blamed Anthony Rapp.

    so in other words he killed his career.
  • flash525flash525 Member Posts: 5,441 Arc User
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Unfortunately true, all the signs definitely point to CBS having no interest in spinning off a Pike series. While making one seems like a no brainer since the interest is high and they already have the sets they are probably concerned by the still considerable error of closure between DSC and TOS aesthetics and history (along with the specter of Pike's accident), the fanbase turmoil effect of which of will of course only get worse the closer the timeline approaches TOS. On the other hand, it is possible they are waiting for some resolution in DSC to happen, like a paradox getting resolved that resets the timeline to something reasonably close to TOS, but that is highly doubtful.

    Here’s the thing, we don’t know the precise year of Pike’s accident - only that it happens in the 2260’s.

    For the purpose of a Pike series, we could still have ten years of story to tel before he’s promoted to fleet captain and goes on the mission which results in his accident.

    The ascetics and set developments are a product of the modern era, and if fans of Trek really want to cry about that, then they simply aren’t mature enough to appreciate Trek as it develops.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    So now Seven is a crazy murderer. I'm not sure why that is remotely believable. She doesn't even try to save Icheb.
    Ah yes, with all of her vast medical expertise, and ready access to advanced surgical equipment - oh, wait.

    Icheb was dying. Don't know how much more plain it could have been made, apart from dialog along the lines of, "Oh, no, Icheb! You're dying!" "Yes, I'm dying. You can't stop it. You're a vigilante, not a doctor." "Oh, my poor dying Icheb! You're going to die!"

    The only equipment she carried on that mission was a phaser. All she was able to do was make his death quick and painless; the only alternative was leaving it slow and painful. What, precisely, did you expect Seven the Fenris Ranger to do? Call the Voyager to beam them up?

    I don't know, I guess you're right. It's not like there was a ship nearby with an advanced EMH that she could have tried to contact.
    And what ship would that have been, exactly? This was a flashback - she didn't go down from the La Sirena to find Icheb.
    I don't imagine injecting him with some fresh borg nanites could have rebuilt anything either.
    Probably not, because nanites are about repurposing systems for the benefit of the Borg Collective - they tended to simply kill drones injured on missions. Anything too badly injured to fight doesn't seem to have concerned them.
    Surely none of the tools in the room could have been useful either.
    Describe the surgical techniques needed to rescue a former Borg who had had most of his implants violently removed without either anaesthesia or concern for his surviving the procedure. Be specific. Should be easy, since you expect a former astrographer turned vigilante to know exactly how to proceed while enemy forces are closing in.

    Actually I assume that every ship big enough for a med bay has an advanced EMH at this point in time.
    What ship would that be? That little flitter she was in at the end of the last ep wasn't big enough for an EMH, or any other sophisticated systems.
    Voyager showed us they have ships that can be run solely by EMHs and computers (Prometheus)...
    Starfleet has such ships. There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone else has these ships, particularly privateers like the Fenris Rangers. And I reiterate, for your benefit (as Phoenix points out, everyone else seems to be aware), Seven was not in Starfleet at this time.
    Any populated planet is likely to have ships within communication range. This is known, colonized space, even if not Federation space.
    This is a planet in the former Romulan Neutral Zone, during a period in which the Federation has turned inward and... let's say "de-prioritized" that region of space, or in fact anything outside the Federation proper. Or are you arguing that someone could run a kidnapping ring big enough to take Federation citizens at will in spaces where the Federation has any interests at all, but they'll just let it slide until Seven calls them? Because that's what's going on here - former Borg are being kidnapped and vivisected, and Icheb was a Federation citizen when he was taken. If Starfleet had any power in the area, they would have been combing space for him. They weren't.
    Again though, the point isn't that she should succeed, the point is that she should have tried something, anything. She shouldn't have just killed him. There were things to try, even if they were doomed to failure.
    All she could do was prolong his pain - or perhaps worsen it. There was nothing she could do that had any least chance of success. Killing him quickly was the merciful move.

    I think you're remembering too many series episodes where McCoy or Crusher or Bashir would pull some medical miracle out of their back pocket, while the away team would be able to stabilize the patient with a hypospray dispensed by the medical tricorder. This was one woman, alone behind enemy lines, with no support, nobody in orbit backing her up, no superscience Fleet-issue gear, and no time - there's no way that the people in that one lab were the only criminal conspirators in the building, much less on the planet. She could save Icheb from more pain right now, or she could join him as a subject of vivisection for her rather remarkable array of still-functioning Borg parts.

    I dunno, maybe you just don't want to see someone have to make the hard choice. Life's like that sometimes, though - sometimes the best you can do for someone is to let them go.
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  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    All she could do was prolong his pain - or perhaps worsen it. There was nothing she could do that had any least chance of success. Killing him quickly was the merciful move.

    No Jon, she "could" have done anything. This isn't real, so there is no one "right" answer to what she "could" have done. Literally anything that anyone can reasonable imagine "could" have happened, and this is just what the writers happened to write, this time. Another time they may write a very similar situation differently and have someone saved.

    But I'm going to give you a challenge. I'm going to ask you to use your imagination for just a second. Pretend instead of what we saw, we actually did see her trying to do something. Frantically looking around the room to see what was available, even if she eventually realized it was useless. Have you imagined that so far? Let's keep going:

    Now imagine someone was here in this thread saying "she shouldn't have bothered even trying. She should have just killed him! It was stupid to see her trying to save him when there was obviously no chance". Would you honestly be here agreeing with that person, or would you actually be making the complete OPPOSITE argument that you are making now?

    We obviously will never know, but I 100% believe you would be arguing against the person saying that, and defending her trying to save him.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    All she could do was prolong his pain - or perhaps worsen it. There was nothing she could do that had any least chance of success. Killing him quickly was the merciful move.

    No Jon, she "could" have done anything. This isn't real, so there is no "one" right answer to what she "could" have done. This is just what the writers happened to write, this time. Another time they may write a very similar situation differently.
    .

    So basicly rather then accept the premise of what happened you're screaming bloody murder because the writers didn't write in a magical space miracle to make you feel better? yeah ok you're done.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > No Jon, she "could" have done anything. This isn't real, so there is no "one" right answer to what she "could" have done. This is just what the writers happened to write, this time. Another time they may write a very similar situation differently.
    >
    > But I'm going to give you a challenge. I'm going to ask you to use your imagination for just a second. Pretend instead of what we saw, we actually did see her trying to do something. Frantically looking around the room to see what was available, even if she eventually realized it was useless. Have you imagined that so far? Let's keep going:
    >
    > Now imagine someone was here in this thread saying "she shouldn't have bothered even trying. She should have just killed him! It was stupid to see her trying to save him when there was obviously no chance". Would you honestly be here agreeing with that person, or would you actually be making the complete OPPOSITE argument that you are making now?
    >
    > We obviously will never know, but I 100% believe you would be arguing against the person saying that, and defending her trying to save him.

    Bingo. Oh hell the room was filled with medical equipment and worse comes to worse she could have used her phaser to cauterize the wound.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    jonsills wrote: »
    All she could do was prolong his pain - or perhaps worsen it. There was nothing she could do that had any least chance of success. Killing him quickly was the merciful move.

    No Jon, she "could" have done anything. This isn't real, so there is no "one" right answer to what she "could" have done. This is just what the writers happened to write, this time. Another time they may write a very similar situation differently.
    .

    So basicly rather then accept the premise of what happened you're screaming bloody murder because the writers didn't write in a magical space miracle to make you feel better? yeah ok you're done.

    People that actually have valid points to make don't have to resort to hyperbole.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,820 Arc User
    Manu apologized for the Spacy tweet and either way it doesn't justify cancelling him, Amber Heard has done far, far worse things (domestic abuse against Johnny Depp among other things), then a tweet, yet she gets to keep her career and Manu and Icheb fans get screwed over a tweet. Hollywood really sucks.
  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    > @lordgyor said:
    > > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > > (Quote)
    > >
    > > No Jon, she "could" have done anything. This isn't real, so there is no "one" right answer to what she "could" have done. This is just what the writers happened to write, this time. Another time they may write a very similar situation differently.
    > >
    > > But I'm going to give you a challenge. I'm going to ask you to use your imagination for just a second. Pretend instead of what we saw, we actually did see her trying to do something. Frantically looking around the room to see what was available, even if she eventually realized it was useless. Have you imagined that so far? Let's keep going:
    > >
    > > Now imagine someone was here in this thread saying "she shouldn't have bothered even trying. She should have just killed him! It was stupid to see her trying to save him when there was obviously no chance". Would you honestly be here agreeing with that person, or would you actually be making the complete OPPOSITE argument that you are making now?
    > >
    > > We obviously will never know, but I 100% believe you would be arguing against the person saying that, and defending her trying to save him.
    >
    > Bingo. Oh hell the room was filled with medical equipment and worse comes to worse she could have used her phaser to cauterize the wound.

    Just being in a room full of medical equipment doesn’t mean Seven has the knowledge to use them.
    Jadzia died on DS9 within a few feet of the medical lab with a certified surgeon on hand.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Just being in a room full of medical equipment doesn’t mean Seven has the knowledge to use them.
    Jadzia died on DS9 within a few feet of the medical lab with a certified surgeon on hand.


    I have to ask, did you actually read what I wrote? Do you actually think I wrote that she knew how to use the equipment? I hope you don't, because I didn't write that.

    But you missed my actual point. I asked you to imagine we saw her at least TRYING to find something to help him, even if she failed. IF we had seen that, would you honestly be saying she shouldn't have tried?

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • khan5000khan5000 Member Posts: 3,007 Arc User
    > @lordgyor said:
    > Manu apologized for the Spacy tweet and either way it doesn't justify cancelling him, Amber Heard has done far, far worse things (domestic abuse against Johnny Depp among other things), then a tweet, yet she gets to keep her career and Manu and Icheb fans get screwed over a tweet. Hollywood really sucks.

    I didn’t say they were canceling him. However I don’t know how Rapp feels about all this but as a producer I wouldn’t use him and potentially have a situation where these two men are in the same room together at Vegas or Comic-Con. It comes down to siding with a cast member of the flagship show or a guest actor who is only shooting one scene.
    Your pain runs deep.
    Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 5,165 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    Manu apologized for the Spacy tweet and either way it doesn't justify cancelling him, Amber Heard has done far, far worse things (domestic abuse against Johnny Depp among other things), then a tweet, yet she gets to keep her career and Manu and Icheb fans get screwed over a tweet. Hollywood really sucks.

    I'm not a fan of "cancelling", but I definitely get it. I mean, Anthony Rapp is a main character on a current Trek show. Since Icheb was never a main character or some kind of essential role, they aren't going to risk peeing off Rapp just to cast a guy in a short scene where they kill him off.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

    og9Zoh0.jpg
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 5,459 Arc User
    flash525 wrote: »
    > @phoenixc#0738 said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Unfortunately true, all the signs definitely point to CBS having no interest in spinning off a Pike series. While making one seems like a no brainer since the interest is high and they already have the sets they are probably concerned by the still considerable error of closure between DSC and TOS aesthetics and history (along with the specter of Pike's accident), the fanbase turmoil effect of which of will of course only get worse the closer the timeline approaches TOS. On the other hand, it is possible they are waiting for some resolution in DSC to happen, like a paradox getting resolved that resets the timeline to something reasonably close to TOS, but that is highly doubtful.

    Here’s the thing, we don’t know the precise year of Pike’s accident - only that it happens in the 2260’s.

    For the purpose of a Pike series, we could still have ten years of story to tel before he’s promoted to fleet captain and goes on the mission which results in his accident.

    The ascetics and set developments are a product of the modern era, and if fans of Trek really want to cry about that, then they simply aren’t mature enough to appreciate Trek as it develops.

    Actually, from dialog Kirk took command of the Enterprise directly from Pike in 2264, and The Menagerie which shows Pike in the life support chair happened in early 2265 so that narrows it down rather precisely. That leaves about six years available, and the way streaming quickly chews up and spits out shows that is plenty of time.

    Also there is the fact that streaming shows tend to only have a half or even one third the number of episodes (and they are usually jammed together, essentially a long single movie broken up into smaller pieces) so they are only showing a few weeks or less of in-setting time per season usually so they could show the events of a single year over the course of two or three seasons or more if they wanted to.

    As for the aesthetics, those were already set by TOS, and people who cry about how about how they hate them so much are the ones not being realistic. Note that I am not saying they have to use 1960s TV production standards and set construction techniques, that is an entirely different matter from the aesthetics.

    In fact, in the following clip the details in the before and after parts are different but the core aesthetics are the same:
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=kCPdmOuzYrM&feature=emb_logo


    What is immature is what Moonves did in insisting that DSC look nothing like TOS because he personally hated the show. The mature way to have gone about it would be to treat it like a real-world historical setting show, and do it in an inclusive way, not as some total remake. Mixing TOS/ENT style ships with DSC style ships would have been great, but having signs in big screaming bold letters in the design rooms saying "NO ROUND ENGINES!!!" and other nonsense like that is childish.

    It is also childish to think that the original aesthetics could not be used with modern set building materials and techniques so it would absolutely have to look exactly like it did with the limitations of '60s production values.

    That aside, the problem is NOT just aesthetics, it is also disconnects with history and culture between the shows. Enough has already been said about the differences in both Klingon and Federation cultures between TOS and DSC so I will not go into it again here, but there are other problems linked with those.

    For one thing, there is the matter of Garth of Izar. He was supposed to be a great war hero in a major war, so when and where is that war in DSC? It is also implied (both on-screen and in the original series bible) that the cold war with the Klingons was the result of a major war (again, by inference most likely the one Garth was in). Also, according to dialog Kirk studied Garth's battle tactics in the academy. So when and where is that war in the DSC timeline?

    Right off the bat it was not Burnham's war. Why? Two things, first there is apparently no Garth in it in any capacity, much less a pivotal major hero in it. Second, in order for Garth's tactics to be required reading for Kirk at the academy it would have to have happened sometime before he graduated and was posted to USS Farragut, which happened around the same time Burnham's war did, give or take a year or two, which would not be enough time for publication much less a graduation requirement.
  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,556 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    jonsills wrote: »
    So now Seven is a crazy murderer. I'm not sure why that is remotely believable. She doesn't even try to save Icheb.
    Ah yes, with all of her vast medical expertise, and ready access to advanced surgical equipment - oh, wait.

    Icheb was dying. Don't know how much more plain it could have been made, apart from dialog along the lines of, "Oh, no, Icheb! You're dying!" "Yes, I'm dying. You can't stop it. You're a vigilante, not a doctor." "Oh, my poor dying Icheb! You're going to die!"

    The only equipment she carried on that mission was a phaser. All she was able to do was make his death quick and painless; the only alternative was leaving it slow and painful. What, precisely, did you expect Seven the Fenris Ranger to do? Call the Voyager to beam them up?

    I don't know, I guess you're right. It's not like there was a ship nearby with an advanced EMH that she could have tried to contact.
    And what ship would that have been, exactly? This was a flashback - she didn't go down from the La Sirena to find Icheb.
    I don't imagine injecting him with some fresh borg nanites could have rebuilt anything either.
    Probably not, because nanites are about repurposing systems for the benefit of the Borg Collective - they tended to simply kill drones injured on missions. Anything too badly injured to fight doesn't seem to have concerned them.
    Surely none of the tools in the room could have been useful either.
    Describe the surgical techniques needed to rescue a former Borg who had had most of his implants violently removed without either anaesthesia or concern for his surviving the procedure. Be specific. Should be easy, since you expect a former astrographer turned vigilante to know exactly how to proceed while enemy forces are closing in.

    Actually I assume that every ship big enough for a med bay has an advanced EMH at this point in time.
    What ship would that be? That little flitter she was in at the end of the last ep wasn't big enough for an EMH, or any other sophisticated systems.

    Seven could have modified her ship to have more advanced first aid systems and other sophisticated systems. However, we don't know what ship she used to try to rescue Icheb. It is likely that since Seven put Icheb out of his misery, then there was no saving him even if Seven had a fully functional med bay.
    Voyager showed us they have ships that can be run solely by EMHs and computers (Prometheus)...
    Starfleet has such ships. There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone else has these ships, particularly privateers like the Fenris Rangers. And I reiterate, for your benefit (as Phoenix points out, everyone else seems to be aware), Seven was not in Starfleet at this time.

    EMHs would be extremely common in the Federation and the Doctor modified his programming to be a ECH. So a talented enough hologram programmer would be able to create a ship with a hologram crew and AI. However, the Zhat Vash would likely destroy it if they find out about it. For a vigilante organization, it makes more sense to have ships with holographic crews or one-man ships than have fully crewed ships.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 10,354 Arc User
    "Cauterize the wound"? Which wound? Are you suggesting she could have tried to save him by shooting him in the eye socket?? And that was just one of the implants torn from him - without anaesthetic, I remind you.

    Never mind, y'all want to think that a former Borg drone turned vigilante is a fully-trained Starfleet officer, a graduate of the Academy, with a fully-stocked starship and crew right there in orbit. You go ahead and think that. I'm finished here.
    Lorna-Wing-sig.png
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    A lot of what Seven could of done to try save Icheb didn't exist in a make believe scenario. But that room used is one to dissect Borg devices from Icheb, there was never going be anything but these specific devices on a table to the right of Icheb up against the wall.

    Icheb had a device that drilled into the side of his head around the temple and then had his eye pulled out and endings cut, on the side of the bed around his head there was a lot of blood and Icheb's eye socket was all puffed up, as well as the indentations of the borg device pulled from inside of his right eye, this suggests strongly that he had massive internal injuries to his head and may have been incapable of standing let alone surviving very long.

    Even if there was a medical kit, it wouldn't of been enough, he would of needed someone who knew medicine and had a surgical bay to perform immediate surgery, but even then it would be touch and go if he'd survive the procedure, much less the trauma of the event. Seven was no doctor or medic. There was only one thing she could do, end Icheb's existence and preserve what dignity he had left as an individual.

    Icheb was stationed on the USS Coleman as a science officer, held the rank of Lieutenant. The crew of that ship may not know where he was, after all if Bjayzl wanted to extract those devices for the Zhat Vash, she wouldn't want it done where Starfleet could find Icheb or her, let alone leave a trail of evidence.
    khan5000 wrote: »
    Just being in a room full of medical equipment doesn’t mean Seven has the knowledge to use them.
    Jadzia died on DS9 within a few feet of the medical lab with a certified surgeon on hand.

    The difference between them is huge. Jadzia had some crazy stuff happen to her body at the hands of a Pah-Wraith, and who knows what lingering effects there was on her body afterwards. Jadzia's situation was out of Bashir's hands as whatever the Pah-Wraith did probably went beyond the biological and technological and into some crazy space voodoo. And would you think Bashir would of given up on her?

    Icheb's situation was one of trauma to his head and if he had the services of Bashir and his infirmary, he would of had a far better chance to survive than Jadzia as it is all biological and he can do something about that. but even with a better chance, that doesn't automatically mean he would of survived even so, as there is only so much a humanoid body can take before it cries enough and gives up.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    the episode does note that those assimilated as children have a lot of borg tech left in them because it becomes unsafe to remove it if they grow up with the hardware. which BTW neatly explains why Seven has the borg implants on her but Picard doesn't


  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,844 Arc User
    the episode does note that those assimilated as children have a lot of borg tech left in them because it becomes unsafe to remove it if they grow up with the hardware. which BTW neatly explains why Seven has the borg implants on her but Picard doesn't


    Any former Borg can't survive without all their implants taken out, a balance has to be struck between the biological and technological components. Picard was once assimilated as a Borg and had those visible elements removed from his body after being severed from the collective, but internally he would still have some Borg technology within him.

    It was alluded to in First Contact that Picard still had some kind of connection to the collective still:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPzJSBHG4pI

    at 3:18 a voice is heard that Picard understood before ordering the fleet to a specific coordinate on the cube to destroy it.
    It suggests at the very least that he still has Borg devices within him and the queen was attempting to communicate in some fashion.

    i doubt any person assimilated would be free of the technology after being freed from the collective irrespective of their age.
    T6 Miranda Hero Ship FTW.
    Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 2,482 Arc User
    reyan01 wrote: »
    the episode does note that those assimilated as children have a lot of borg tech left in them because it becomes unsafe to remove it if they grow up with the hardware. which BTW neatly explains why Seven has the borg implants on her but Picard doesn't


    Any former Borg can't survive without all their implants taken out, a balance has to be struck between the biological and technological components. Picard was once assimilated as a Borg and had those visible elements removed from his body after being severed from the collective, but internally he would still have some Borg technology within him.

    It was alluded to in First Contact that Picard still had some kind of connection to the collective still:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPzJSBHG4pI

    at 3:18 a voice is heard that Picard understood before ordering the fleet to a specific coordinate on the cube to destroy it.
    It suggests at the very least that he still has Borg devices within him and the queen was attempting to communicate in some fashion.

    i doubt any person assimilated would be free of the technology after being freed from the collective irrespective of their age.

    Can't help but wonder if the tech that Picard already had within him, namely his artifical heart, had any influence on matters. I mean, entirely possible that they replaced the new one that he received in 'Samaritan Snare' when they 'reversed' his assimilation, but it wasn't stated one way or the other.
    'Tapestry' indicated that the artifical heart was a pretty sensitive piece of tech.

    I always wondered why they couldn't just give him a pill to grow a new one.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 733 Arc User
    proaly cause not even star trek science is at the point where you can regrow organs with a simple pill
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,276 Arc User
    um...doctor mccoy would like a word with you
    In 1986, Dr. Leonard McCoy gave a kidney pill to an elderly woman in San Francisco who was suffering from "kidney dialysis." The pill apparently caused the spontaneous growth of a new kidney. (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home)
    ​​
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