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The Enterprise War. DSC Enterprise vs Kelvin-Timeline Enterprise
jake477
Member Posts: 526 Arc User
Standard Armaments for both vessels, captained by their standard crews, Chris Pine's Jim Kirk vs Anson Mount's Christopher Pike.
We have both seen the new Enterprises in action, while aesthetically in my opinion the Discovery Enterprise both inside and out is far superior to JJ Abrams Enterprise. The Abram's Enterprise to me seems like a parody rather then a natural update. The Discovery Enterprise I could easily see being used in TOS rather then the classic design, in fact I would love to see Discovery's Enterprise in a updated version of TOS much like the "remastered Blu-Rays"
However, this is a one on one fight. 2 different versions of the Constitution-Class. Personally I think the Original TOS version is more powerful then both of them. Star Trek Enterprise's "In a Mirror Darkly" the original Connie looked far more powerful, granted she was in the 22nd Century but the weapons looked like she could turn JJ's Enterprise into a cloud of dust.
In terms of speed, Abram's Enterprise has the advantage, because it seems in that universe Starfleet cracked the trans-warp code long before the 24th Century because of Borg technology made available due to the Romulans of our universe.
The Enterprise design is one the few things I find Discovery did absolutely right and I love the design more then the Constitution-Refit which I thought was the best looking Enterprise ever to be put on film till now.
We have both seen the new Enterprises in action, while aesthetically in my opinion the Discovery Enterprise both inside and out is far superior to JJ Abrams Enterprise. The Abram's Enterprise to me seems like a parody rather then a natural update. The Discovery Enterprise I could easily see being used in TOS rather then the classic design, in fact I would love to see Discovery's Enterprise in a updated version of TOS much like the "remastered Blu-Rays"
However, this is a one on one fight. 2 different versions of the Constitution-Class. Personally I think the Original TOS version is more powerful then both of them. Star Trek Enterprise's "In a Mirror Darkly" the original Connie looked far more powerful, granted she was in the 22nd Century but the weapons looked like she could turn JJ's Enterprise into a cloud of dust.
In terms of speed, Abram's Enterprise has the advantage, because it seems in that universe Starfleet cracked the trans-warp code long before the 24th Century because of Borg technology made available due to the Romulans of our universe.
The Enterprise design is one the few things I find Discovery did absolutely right and I love the design more then the Constitution-Refit which I thought was the best looking Enterprise ever to be put on film till now.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] "This planet smells, it must be the Klingons"
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Give me DSC's Enterprise any day of the week against the floating lifeless Apple Store Abrams calls "Enterprise". Sure it maybe fight similar bout of the Enterprise E vs Scimitar battle at the Basin Rift but at least I'll look like an actual Starfleet Captain while doing it instead of one of Tim Cook's fantasy dreams.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The Konni is designed by Ryan Church not Abrams and it's not the same ship. It's a brand new ship built at the end of the 50s built from scratch. It's not an update of anything unlike the Conni which is an ageing hulk from the early 40s that needed constant refits to even stay relevant up to the 90s.
The TOS and TMP Conni are decades newer than the DSC and KT versions so will be obviously more powerful.
The KT does not have transwarp. It has normal warp and the same plot relevant speeds that all Trek starships have.
The Nerada haven't been confirmed to have Borg tech in the first place. Secondly, it was the Klingons that captured Nero, not Starfleet (possibly why they lost Praxis so early in the KT), and finally the Federation had Borg stuff as early as ENT from the crashed Sphere.
The KT Enterprise is much smaller than the DSC and TOS versions. The Konni is 366m (365.4 in BEY), the Conni 433m (459.4 in TMP), and the DSC Conni 442m. Even then the majority of the Konni's length is nacelle. The hull itself is shorter, shallower, and thinner than even the TOS version. The saucer is about a third of the other versions as well.
It also has gods awful shields as seen in the films. It's weapons also have less coverage than the TOS and DSC versions or at least the TOS version seen in ENT.
It is neither larger nor outfitted with weapons based on scans of the Narada.
The actual answer is 'which does the writer of the situation want to win?'. This is the franchise where a BoP took out a Galaxy Class so relative match ups are pointless.
On paper the TMP era refit is the most powerful as it has the most advanced tech out of all the various versions, but if the writer of the scenario wants a different version to win, then it will.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
They both have very poor fire control systems and probably could not hit each other if they were more than a half kilometer away, and both have very weak looking weapons that have to be fired in mass to bee-sting the other ship to death.
The JJprise has a size disadvantage in that it is a bigger target so the Discoprise might actually be able to hit it more often. The Discoprise also has that TARDIS shuttlebay that can hold ridiculous numbers of shuttles, but the JJprise sailing-ship broadside missile tubes would more than make up for it I think. Also if it gets in trouble the JJprise could always chuck warp cores at the Discoprise, with the beer factory setup I doubt they would miss a half-dozen or so cores if they had to.
Of course both of them together would be torn apart by the TOS version since of the three it is the only one that can warp-strafe the others (sort of like how the Orion intruder did Enterprise, but without burning itself out), plus it has a considerable weapons and sensor range advantage on top of that.
The official size according to CBS has it as large as a Galaxy class, and Abrams himself said in an interview that the reason it is so different from the TOS Connie is because of ideas Starfleet got from the encounter with the Narada.
You also mention the TMP Connie a few times but that ship is irrelevant to this thread, the specific question the OP asked was which ship would win in a battle between the Discoprise and JJPrise.
As for the size issues...
The Kelvin Connie's all over the place, but realistically she should be around 366 meters due to on screen details. Only that stupid shuttlebay scene before they leave Earth in 09 says 700+, which is immediately countered when Pike leaves Enterprise at Vulcan.
So for the most part the Kelvin and Discovery Connies are relatively in the same size category, give or take some length.
Weapon wise, we have the Kelvin Connie mounting rapid, bolt firing phaser emitters and a relatively fast reloading Photon Torpedo launcher. The Discovery Connie has sustained, beam firing phaser emitters and Photon Torpedos. I haven't actually seen Enterprise in combat yet in Discovery. Haven't gotten that far yet, however she's probably comparable to TOS in terms of fire rate of torps.
Defense wise I would probably put them on an equal footing. Only reason the Kelvin Enterprise kept getting hammered so much is because she was ALWAYS facing a vastly superior adversary. The Narada in 09, the Vengeance in Into Darkness, and then killed by swarmers in Beyond. Against an equivelent opponent she would hold her own just as well as any other ship we know of.
The primary variables here are:
In the Prime Universe, the Constitution Class was one of the power houses of Starfleet. The Enterprise herself was launched in 2245. However they were held back during the Klingon War, for reasons I don't know. The Consitution Class was able to hold her own against Klingon D7 Battlecruisers in the 2260s, which are apparently a newer design than the Connie based on what we learned in Discovery.
In the Kelvin Timeline, the scans of the Narada by the Kelvin Crew dramatically altered the design of the Constitution Class, and pushed back deployment by a little over 10 years, with the Enterprise being launched around 2259 or so. Using data from the Kelvin, various systems were improved, and technology was most likely advanced at least a couple decades.
Now... the first variable can be countered by the second variable. But if we assume that both ships are manned by equally skilled crews and not the famous crews of the Enterprises of each era, then the advantage would fall to the Kelvin Connie due to the potential of superior tactical systems. But it wouldn't be a curbstomp as the Discovery Connie is no slouch either. I'd say... maybe 6-7/10 in the Kelvin Connie's favor.
Now... we throw in the variable of crew skill... that would dramatically change the battle. In that case... I'd call it 50-50 as both crews would be actively figuring each other out, and the skill of the Captain managing each ship. Pike is a skilled Captain with years of experience. Kelvin Kirk, on the other hand, is a wildcard. inexperienced, yet flexable.
So yea... in my opinion... ultimately neither ship can dominate the other. Its an even fight despite the differences in ships.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
One thing that is definitely known about the DSC Enterprise's torpedoes if it is indeed the same ship Kirk flew is that it has at least SIX forward torpedo tubes (Kirk ordered "load forward tubes two, four, and six" in Journey to Babel, and both Roddenberry and Jefferies have said that they used the US WWII submarine standard of six forward, four rear). It was not until the refit that they cut it back to two forward, one rear.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Not how they do it in TUC, but in TNG the breach was long enough to load something like five or ten torpedoes nose-to-tail in it and then fire off however many were needed sort of like a real-world Metalstorm rifle. The Constitution refit goiter seems to be too small for that, but the Galaxy had plenty of room in its neck to support tubes that long.
use a revolver style cylinder to load the torpedos up, push them out of the tube rapidly one after another.
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> use a revolver style cylinder to load the torpedos up, push them out of the tube rapidly one after another.
Or the vertical loading like The NX Enterprise used
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
i don't think it was a standard photon either, but something more powerful
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Which is why I ultimately said that neither ship can dominate the other. In a standard 1v1 with no modifiers like Captain and crew, Kelvin Connie edges out a little but still won't win all engagements. Throw in the crews, and it becomes a much more even fight.
Its like what R Lee Ermy once said about the Thompson vs MP-40. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but ultimately it comes down to who's doing the shooting.
The Vengeance is explicitly mentioned in dialogue as having a 40m gap between the saucer and bridge (i.e. where Harrison jumped) and as being twice the size of the Konni. That makes the Dreadnought 820m long and the Konni therefore 410m long, Harrison is clearly not being literal with exactly twice the size so the difference between 410m and 366m (as per per Ryan Church) is well within reasonable for the figure of speech.
Most of the sizes on MA come from non-canon BtS stuff that have no impact on the films. There's only three sizes in the films, the 366m ship with two deck saucer, one deck shuttlebay, one deck bridge, et. (i.e. the actual size), the dramatic 800m ship seen when the ship crashes and the two deck shuttlebay, and the 1,200m, the one to fit the Budweiser Brewery and National Ignition Facility inside.
Obviously the last can be discounted, the second doesn't match the deck plan that features heavily in ID and BEY when the ship is damaged so the first size stands as it's the only one supported by both dialogue and visual evidence.
JJ Abrams does not have a Conni named after him nor is the Konni bigger than the Conni. It has larger nacelles but is overall much smaller.
And the canonical size from Paramount's film (which trumps any BtS stuff) has it about the same bulk as the Intrepid class.
Remember that the 'official' size of the Prometheus is smaller than the Defiant and the 'official' size of the K't'inga is 30% larger than the D7. Official is not the same as canon and is meaningless comparatively. As pointed out above by khan5000, there are apparently nine different 'official' sizes for the Konni whereas the films show only three and one exists only as a rationalisation for the stupid decision to film at a Budweiser Brewery and the National Ignition Facility rather than using CGI or building some bloody sets.
And Lindelof though the two alien twins in ID were Catians despite not being cats. Unless it's onscreen it's headcanon and considering how little Abrams knows about Trek I'm inclined to ignore him unless he could be arsed to put it onscreen.
Also, it's clearly the TMP Conni built earlier, it shares zero features with the Nerada.
It's more likely the Prime Conni designer got moved onto a different project after the destruction of the Kelvin and the refit designer got chosen to take over. (Note; this is my headcanon made by applying Oakham's Razor to the film rather than copying fanfiction written before DSC was made).
Despite that, the OP keeps dragging the TOS refit in so I'm dragging the TMP refit in.
And none of them are canon so you're right, they can be ignored without debate.
The films show Yorktown alone as something that doesn't exist in the Prime Timeline. The Konni is smaller and weaker than the DSC Conni, the Vengeance is nothing compared to the Prime S31 drone ships, the Konni is stuck with forward facing only weapons and got destroyed by drones, the DSC Conni has all sides covered and won against drones. You need to stop mixing up headcanon with what actually happens onscreen. Just because the KT is shiny it doesn't make it more advanced.
They're not though. All the bulk of the Konnis are in the nacelles. Their lengths might be similar but the bulk is very different.
The size and mass isn't massively important for these ships, as they all have about the same amount of hardpoints (just different distributions) but it would factor into other ships.
I don't recall seeing it use torps in DSC at all. Only beams.
I don't know if you've seen the battle against Control yet or not but the DSC Conni faces a similar enemy to one of those and comes out massively better than the Konni does.
Not really borne out in either TOS or DSC. It's not very effective against the Miranda and those things blow up with a light touch.
The Enterprise was held back, not the Connis in general. That was a moral thing with Pike not the ship.
None of that is canon other than the ship launching 10 years later. There are no systems or technologies seen in the KT that are not in DSC.
The fanfiction that it's somehow 'more advanced' only started because the KT was made in 2009 and TOS was made in the 60s. Now DSC has shown what the prime timeline looked like at the same time as the KT it can be seen there's essentially no difference.
You may want to finish DSC S2 before saying the Konni has 'superior tactical systems'.
Why Kirk? Why not put Prime and Kelvin Pike against each other? It'd be more fun.
Is that the tube Spock and McCoy were in whilst conducting 'surgery' on a torpedo?
The bays are seen in TWoK as well. The gantry they load the torps onto could easily hold ten in a line but I can't see more than one getting through the emitter at a time.
Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
JJ Trek The Kelvin Timeline is just Trek and it's fully canon... get over it. But I still prefer TAR.
#TASforSTO
'...I can tell you that we're not in the military and that we intend no harm to the whales.' Kirk: The Voyage Home
'Starfleet is not a military organisation. Its purpose is exploration.' Picard: Peak Performance
'This is clearly a military operation. Is that what we are now? Because I thought we were explorers!' Scotty: Into Darkness
'...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
'I'm not a soldier anymore. I'm an engineer.' Miles O'Brien: Empok Nor
'...Starfleet could use you... It's a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada...' Admiral Pike: Star Trek
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but revolver or line style torpedo launches isn't what i was referring to (that's basically what in STO is represented as THY) but the scene of enterprise firing what looked like a SINGLE torpedo in...yesterday's enterprise? where it split into several a second after launch - if they were all the same size as standard torpedoes, the launch tubes on a galaxy would have to be significantly larger than the ones we saw in TUC to be able to fire off a group simultaneously
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
I have a feeling that the loading mechanism is actually a lot faster, but was manually slowed down to allow for Spock and McCoy to modify the torpedo en route to cut down on the time needed to actually fire the modded torp. So I figure its more of an auto loader system that has multiple torpedos queued up.
A: We know more about Kelvin Kirk's tactics. We haven't actually seen Kelvin Pike in combat other than managing the evasive action over Vulcan before buying Enterprise time to disable the drill. The actual ship combat was Kirk.
B: The OP specifically mentioned Kelvin Kirk.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
Every other time multiple torpedoes are fired they come out with at least a little space between them in a stutter pattern that looks very much like how a single barrel metalstorm gun fires.
#LegalizeAwoo
A normie goes "Oh, what's this?"
An otaku goes "UwU, what's this?"
A furry goes "OwO, what's this?"
A werewolf goes "Awoo, what's this?"
"It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."
"We said 'no' to Mr. Curiosity. We're not home. Curiosity is not welcome, it is not to be invited in. Curiosity...is bad. It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed, and more importantly...it makes you poor!"
And I think it looks much nicer than the Disco or Kelvin.