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A third faction, being no faction.

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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,613 Arc User
    Keep in mind we DO see traders and rogues in Star Trek. And almost all of them have something in common. Let's take Harry Mudd, whom is proably the most notorious rogue in star trek. We've seen a few differant types of ships he's flown, but they've all been fairly small ships, often not much bigger then a runabout. compared to a federation, klingon etc starship they're under engined, undergunned etc.

    then there's also a matter of CREW, I don't think people stop and think how much crew a full fledged starship needs.

    A Defiant class starship required a crew of fifty individuals. and thats considered fairly small. meanwhile a Intrepid class ship, which is considered very modern and highly automated, requires 150 crew (and it's about the same size as a TOS era conny which ahd a 300 man crew)

    crewing a civilian transport with that many people wouldn't be easy
    It should be noted that military vessels do have more crew then civilian ships of equal size (no need for damage control teams or marines on civilian ships after all). That said a merc or pirate ships would have crew sizes similar to military ships and yes Starships would need damage control teams you can't survive in hard vacuum.

    Also in regards to the OP cryptic would not make faction exclusive storyline, none of the factions has had exclusive storylines beyond the intro after the Romulans were introduced. While one can argue about the quality of the writing all factions have access to same missions after a certain point, with our latest faction having exactly 1 unique "true" mission that being their tutorial. A faction with mostly if not 100% unique storyline and TFOs isn't gonna happen, Cryptic simply doesn't have the resources for it.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    yeah crew is a big one, I think some people forget how much crew a ship has, it's more then just bridge officers.
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 644 Arc User
    Not just crew but cost. A civilian privateer wouldn't have the resources to own and run a capital ship.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    The game only has two factions: Starfleet and the Klingon Empire. They pass off the others as factions, but every other character creation option soon becomes shoehorned into one of those.

    As a Star Trek fan nearing my sixtieth year, just turned 58 this month; emotionally the Agents of Yesterday era starter is my personal favorite within the game. I would dearly love to see them create more episodes within that TOS time frame. I grant you that this is highly unlikely to occur, but given all of the time traveling that has gone on in STO, doing so seems a no-brainer to me?

    Every new episode drop does not have to be part of the overarching whole in my estimation. Doing some good quality standalone missions that is inclusive of all those "factions" Cryptic offers seems like it should be part of the mix too?
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,308 Arc User
    The game only has two factions: Starfleet and the Klingon Empire. They pass off the others as factions, but every other character creation option soon becomes shoehorned into one of those.

    As a Star Trek fan nearing my sixtieth year, just turned 58 this month; emotionally the Agents of Yesterday era starter is my personal favorite within the game. I would dearly love to see them create more episodes within that TOS time frame. I grant you that this is highly unlikely to occur, but given all of the time traveling that has gone on in STO, doing so seems a no-brainer to me?

    Every new episode drop does not have to be part of the overarching whole in my estimation. Doing some good quality standalone missions that is inclusive of all those "factions" Cryptic offers seems like it should be part of the mix too?

    I too doubt the devs would do that, which is a shame since they tend to be the best scenarios (the only really bad one is the TFO where you feed warp cores to the Doomsday Machine). The TOS character start they made for AoY definitely is the best starter scenario and it ties in well with later stuff (like the Lukari missions).

    My favorite scenario after you get to the "present" of the game is Spectres, and it was positioned in a very good place in the leveling progression, especially for TOS-generated characters. Unfortunately, since the moved it to the "availible" tab (which is misnamed btw, since a lot of it is NOT available until level 65 or other weird undocumented requirements are met) it has become a lot less relevant because of the huge gap between where it was designed to be and where it now is, and like Wasteland and the Kobali crisis stuff also in that tab it can be a seriously buggy and difficult hassle to get it to start.

    Endgame is all about TFOs, special events, chasing character and ship costume pieces and whatnot so it is not a good place for intricately crafted episodes to be exiled to, especially ones that have references to them much earlier in the game, like the spectres running around Drozanna with no explanation except for in that episode.

    More TOS era content would be great, but CBS seems hellbent on marginalizing or eliminating TOS and replacing it with DSC as much as possible so it seems rather unlikely we will be getting any more of it in STO.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    by marginalizing you mean "not flogging a 60 year old series and instead flogging the stuff they're currently producing"?
  • sthe91sthe91 Member Posts: 4,154 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    I personally don't want a third faction until they work on getting more stuff for all the factions and not just the Federation. The Romulan hairstyles they added last week or two weeks ago was a good start.
    Where there is a Will, there is a Way.
  • captainwellscaptainwells Member Posts: 718 Arc User
    by marginalizing you mean "not flogging a 60 year old series and instead flogging the stuff they're currently producing"?

    Um, pretty much ANYTHING done in the name of Star Trek would qualify as flogging a series that yes, has lasted that long. I do NOT care for Discovery at all, but absolutely do not mind anyone else enjoying it. Easily done by changing that channel or not carrying the streaming service. I do like the new Picard show however!
  • docmimedocmime Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    docmime wrote: »

    sure except those people aren't going to be involved in big events. you can't expect to attend important international summits as a random person.
    Star Trek has never had Han Solo types saving the day

    And that's a shame, even on picard even though they are technically rogues they are also all technically former starfleet and I have a feeling any help they get along the way will be either former starfleet or any friends he still has in current starfleet, but I'm sure there are hansolo types that stumble into big events all the time we as viewers of the show are only shown things from the viewpoint of what ever federation ship or station the show is focused on. even in our own history rogues have served the bigger picture, like during the revolutionary war many pirate's were attacking British ships, during WW2 MOB bosses were helping keep commercial docks free of spys attempting to get into our country. In the startrek universe I'm sure "Section 31" has tapped many "HanSolo" types via blackmail or good ole Latnum. same with the romulans(I doubt Klingons would stoop to that kinda warfair through sneakery).

    Sure and none of those privateers ever got invited to the peace discussions after the war and where dropped by the US government faster than a hot potato after that treaty was signed. Also those privateers where never more than a nuisance.

    There is plnety of scope for these individuals on the small scale but the nature of sto does mean such individuals won't get the kit and access that a regular officer would.

    To take your privateer analogy, show me a privateer during the revolutionary war who commanded a 3 deck ship of line and led a fleet? In Picard the "hero" ship is a small raider, try getting anything like a Battlecruiser or Dreadnought as a "han solo" type. It's like the US military letting a pirate take command of the USS Nimitz.

    Actually many of them became the US Navy, but yes many of them also went back to being just plain ole pirates, but you have to figure there was not american navy prior to that war, just a colonial Coast Guard, then the "continental navy" in 1775, which were basically state funded privateers(Think of a militia on water) the navy as we know it today wasn't formed until 1794 I think
  • edxelledxell Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    I don't suppose anyone here reads Schlock Mercenary? It's a webcomic about a tiny mercenary company who have blundered their way into all sorts of important events and millitary grade hardware. My point is that if Cryptic wanted to do a privateer faction it wouldn't be impossible to write something in to explain how I'm at the summit in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere in my stolen Acheros Battlecruiser.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,767 Arc User
    edxell wrote: »
    I don't suppose anyone here reads Schlock Mercenary? It's a webcomic about a tiny mercenary company who have blundered their way into all sorts of important events and millitary grade hardware. My point is that if Cryptic wanted to do a privateer faction it wouldn't be impossible to write something in to explain how I'm at the summit in the Jenolan Dyson Sphere in my stolen Acheros Battlecruiser.
    It might, however, be difficult to explain why you're not in danger of being arrested by one or all other parties present - as I recall, Tagon's Toughs are still persona non grata in all spaces controlled by the UN, and if it weren't for the ongoing conflict with the Pa'anuri even Petey's influence might not keep Tagon and his people safe from a visit by a battleplate.
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    Besides, I'd not use a online comedy webcomic set in another universe to justify mercenaries with starships in Star Trek.

    The best evidance for mercenaries would be the Nausican Pirates we see pop up occasionally (most often in the employ of Damon Madran. even one's favorite Feranghi punching bag) thing is, if Nausicans represent the normal type of mercenary etc out there, then yeah no they won't work for the game because well.. they're not trust worthy.. AT ALL
  • edxelledxell Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    I thought of a better one. In the TNG episode Rascals those Ferengi privateers got hold of some surplus Klingon ships and struck out for themselves.

    There are multiple ways of writing in playable privateers. Whether I think it would be a good use of Cryptic's resources to add in another f(r)action is an entirely different question.
  • docmimedocmime Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    n
    edxell wrote: »
    I thought of a better one. In the TNG episode Rascals those Ferengi privateers got hold of some surplus Klingon ships and struck out for themselves.

    There are multiple ways of writing in playable privateers. Whether I think it would be a good use of Cryptic's resources to add in another f(r)action is an entirely different question.

    Or an even better example the Pakleds, which are a playable race for starfleet, in the TNG episode "Samaritan Snare" they were shown to be kinda socially dimwitted but creative and smart when it comes to being able to cludge together ships from pieces and parts of other ships, Basically a whole race of autistic savants, who scavenge, steal and copy tech from other races. the answer to how privateers could get starships is the fact that they are all over the place, intact parts found in space junk, deralect ships floating in space where the crew died centuries ago cause some virus got aboard, a warp core here a plasma array there, a wrecked warbird with an intact singularity drive floating in some systems kyperbelt, a wrecked fed ship with an intact torpedo bay floating around since the borg conflict led by Locutous. You gotta figure there are abandoned space stations, repair facilities built by long extinct races that have been found or stumbled upon and moved into by non-aligned people that have been turned into "used ship lots" selling said "pieced together" ships.
  • docmimedocmime Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    Besides, I'd not use a online comedy webcomic set in another universe to justify mercenaries with starships in Star Trek.

    The best evidance for mercenaries would be the Nausican Pirates we see pop up occasionally (most often in the employ of Damon Madran. even one's favorite Feranghi punching bag) thing is, if Nausicans represent the normal type of mercenary etc out there, then yeah no they won't work for the game because well.. they're not trust worthy.. AT ALL

    But who says everyone who is non-aligned is automatically untrustworthy? just because they don't answer directly to some government?
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,613 Arc User
    docmime wrote: »
    Besides, I'd not use a online comedy webcomic set in another universe to justify mercenaries with starships in Star Trek.

    The best evidance for mercenaries would be the Nausican Pirates we see pop up occasionally (most often in the employ of Damon Madran. even one's favorite Feranghi punching bag) thing is, if Nausicans represent the normal type of mercenary etc out there, then yeah no they won't work for the game because well.. they're not trust worthy.. AT ALL

    But who says everyone who is non-aligned is automatically untrustworthy? just because they don't answer directly to some government?

    Well it isn't so much that they're automitically untrustworthy but rather the risk is high for that they are, there's generally a reason why they don't answer to goverments and also that reason generally is something that makes goverments not trust them with their secrets (a goverment that has no secrets what so ever is a badly disfunctional one since for a nation to function a goverment must be able to make unpopular but necessery calls sometimes, the problem isn't that goverment have secrets but rather when the authorities keep things secret to hide their corruption).
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,308 Arc User
    A privateer is intrinsically tied to a faction though, technically they are a kind of mercenary with more than the usual self-direction. The same type of ship and crew that operates without a sponsor is called a pirate, and no government likes them.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,613 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    A privateer is intrinsically tied to a faction though, technically they are a kind of mercenary with more than the usual self-direction. The same type of ship and crew that operates without a sponsor is called a pirate, and no government likes them.

    technically yes, though I've found that privateer and mercenary are often used interchangedbly here in common discussion.

    So while if we go by the exact defination a "privateer" is pirate with essentially a license to raid the shippings of a enemies of the nation who granted the license, so the way it's used here it's considered "a mercenary with their own ship".

    EDIT:what people also seem to forget (since the game doesn't really draw attention to it) goverment owned forces would have "free" repairs and restocking at any goverment facility. While an independent faction would have to "pay" for everything (maybe not literally but thru some form of compensation) as the goverment wouldn't just give them the resources needed to run a starship.
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,767 Arc User
    Mercs are also sponsored by someone - they don't just go out committing violence freelance, that once again brings us back to "pirate". My previous example, tr'Sevel, was a merc, has a merc crew, and is currently in the employ of the Romulan Republic, who hired them in the wake of Virinat. (He also has a personal stake in taking down everything Hakeev ever did - mnei'sahe demands no less.)

    So, if you want to play a privateer or mercenary, that's simple enough - just have them hired by one of the powers that be (probably Romulan or Klingon, though, as I have trouble envisioning the Feds relaxing their standards enough to hire outside contractors for their business). Then role-play the character, and mentally alter all your orders to sound more like an employer to an employee and less like a superior to a subordinate.
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    As I said wouldn't work via the story, you attend a fair number of high level events in STO. off the top of my head you attend the grand opening of the iconian gate on new Romulus. several important military and diplomatic summits. Work on development of a temporal "super weapon" are selected to represent your faction in the future signing of the temporal accords. The temporal stuff wouldn't be trusted to anyone but an officer of starfleet/theKDF etc. And the diplomatic stuff, well... Imagine if your country went to a high level military conferance and a nation just sent a PMC as their representive, it'd be insulting
  • edxelledxell Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    As I said wouldn't work via the story, you attend a fair number of high level events in STO. off the top of my head you attend the grand opening of the iconian gate on new Romulus. several important military and diplomatic summits. Work on development of a temporal "super weapon" are selected to represent your faction in the future signing of the temporal accords. The temporal stuff wouldn't be trusted to anyone but an officer of starfleet/theKDF etc. And the diplomatic stuff, well... Imagine if your country went to a high level military conferance and a nation just sent a PMC as their representive, it'd be insulting

    Make it a level 60 sub f(r)action like Jem'Hadar. They skip all of those events you mentioned and start off with the conflict with the Hur'q. It makes a bit more sense that an alliance which has been weakened by several previous conflicts would hire people to help them deal with the Hur'q. From there your captain gets wrapped up in various events and earns the trust of the alliance. Previous missions could just be your captain's Holonovels.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    sure except those events are just examples of the type of things we do, there will no doubt be future missions like that.
  • edxelledxell Member Posts: 47 Arc User
    sure except those events are just examples of the type of things we do, there will no doubt be future missions like that.

    And by the time we get to those missions your character will have gained the trust of the alliance like I said. This is a problem that could be written around.
  • oclosoclos Member Posts: 35 Arc User
    edited February 2020
    If anything, we should get at least insignia that is player defined and depending the toon. Let's just say, on Character creation we get to select factions, races, costumes and insignia/badges we want on our crews. I don't see why not. If anything, I could make a Ferengi that employs Orion, Nausicaan, Gorn, etc. if I wanted and use on them a possible Ferengi badge and unis or on the other hand if I wanted a Fed, Rom, Kling, Jem etc. ambassador, attache, councilor etc. on my crew I could still get them to keep their respective badge and looks(since the Captain is Ferengi what would that make the crew? Who is responcible to get the latinum flowing and for instance pay for the uniforms and equipment in such a case so that they look presentable? But also that they can keep their identity intact if it works well that way?).

    And if there are differences with Canon, it could label the toon "Alternate Universe Citizen" as it contradicts canon. Btw, as this (STO) takes place in a future that hasn't yet been explored in canon, it is possible it could be an alternate version already and so nothing we do that contradicts canon could damage it seriously. So, we could actually say "well from that point on, on that toon a parallel or alternate universe was created, while the core one still exists". Like they've done with the Kelvinverse.
    Adm. Necheyev didn't own ANY Starfleet ships. Starfleet did. Also she didn't make one bolt, connect a single wire, gelpack or device, or otherwise helped on making them. I find it presumptuous she claimed it was HER ships. In fact saying as much would probably warranty a reprimand from any of her superiors in Federation and possibly not participating in said actions as other superior personnel do, would in our days(2409 onwards) result in herself facing the same fate as what she has threatened, in that same penal colony.
  • docmimedocmime Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    edxell wrote: »
    As I said wouldn't work via the story, you attend a fair number of high level events in STO. off the top of my head you attend the grand opening of the iconian gate on new Romulus. several important military and diplomatic summits. Work on development of a temporal "super weapon" are selected to represent your faction in the future signing of the temporal accords. The temporal stuff wouldn't be trusted to anyone but an officer of starfleet/theKDF etc. And the diplomatic stuff, well... Imagine if your country went to a high level military conferance and a nation just sent a PMC as their representive, it'd be insulting

    Make it a level 60 sub f(r)action like Jem'Hadar. They skip all of those events you mentioned and start off with the conflict with the Hur'q. It makes a bit more sense that an alliance which has been weakened by several previous conflicts would hire people to help them deal with the Hur'q. From there your captain gets wrapped up in various events and earns the trust of the alliance. Previous missions could just be your captain's Holonovels.

    thats a pretty good idea.

  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    A faction kind of like these already exists in lore. It was called the Maquis.
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  • trillbuffettrillbuffet Member Posts: 861 Arc User
    This is basically the way the dev's view and want players to view these factions. Their stories are modeled around the federation and the klingon empire being the "good guys" so the allied part means that you can play them but it also doesn't eliminate the aspect of story telling which is the same basis Worf had in TNG with the Klingon Empire. So essentially they could do a third faction but the basis of it would be nothing at all because you wouldn't belong to any organization or government so what they would basically do is add in some systems that help balance the game economy with such a faction but they wouldn't have missions like the federation and kdf have.

    Which also if you look at it from this perspective a third faction can work with doing almost nothing with it. Reasoning behind this is the ground work for it on the basis of a civilian faction is that it could create an aspect of live player to player based patrols. It could go as far as playing the game as a complete pirate with no ties to any faction and be what they tried to do with the kdf like 9 years ago where they tried turning the freighter patrol the kdf has into pvp missions. Biggest reason it failed besides the fact that the 12% were heavily outnumbered in these as their pvp system seemed to not have any kind of balance infrastructure they have a lot more advancements now in the game so even if this has no pvp in it still works as a viable faction. Also this opens up a new venue of ships that they have never built before on the basis of civilian ships. Ships that are not designed for combat and more so on trading and speed as their main functions.

    So overall when you look at everything that this could do for the game you would see Cryptic and PWE pushing this out big time. Even with federation and kdf it also promotes new possibilities for types of ships that were never really conceivable before or there not being much focus towards. Especially the aspects of non-combat Star Trek canon is known for that could occur like space anomalies, temporal problems, pirates, etc. So you could see them pushing out more raiders to defend these players and get their dilithium that way and even could design it where the success of the person you are defending determines how much you get automatically. Also could pump out new kinds of officers and ship types like for example Dr. Crushers medical ship that could be potentially a new captain type and ship classification in the game. As well as science ships and newer ones that can be customized to take on more non-combative elements. So its really not a if it will ever happen its going to be a when this happens kind of thing because its a completely untapped market to create within the game which has been steadily over time declining. Being its never been done they could start it off properly like most things that got rushed into implementation.

    Personally I would be all for this in any way they could push it out because its that missing peg for the table for ships that a lot of star trek fans want to see but because of popularity with hero ships and such they never get made because of no overwhelming demand for them. I just hope if they do this that we be given abilities to convert existing characters into these roles like for example all my nausicaans, letheans, orions etc they would do great in a new area like this.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 4,308 Arc User
    edited March 2020
    This is basically the way the dev's view and want players to view these factions. Their stories are modeled around the federation and the klingon empire being the "good guys" so the allied part means that you can play them but it also doesn't eliminate the aspect of story telling which is the same basis Worf had in TNG with the Klingon Empire. So essentially they could do a third faction but the basis of it would be nothing at all because you wouldn't belong to any organization or government so what they would basically do is add in some systems that help balance the game economy with such a faction but they wouldn't have missions like the federation and kdf have.

    Which also if you look at it from this perspective a third faction can work with doing almost nothing with it. Reasoning behind this is the ground work for it on the basis of a civilian faction is that it could create an aspect of live player to player based patrols. It could go as far as playing the game as a complete pirate with no ties to any faction and be what they tried to do with the kdf like 9 years ago where they tried turning the freighter patrol the kdf has into pvp missions. Biggest reason it failed besides the fact that the 12% were heavily outnumbered in these as their pvp system seemed to not have any kind of balance infrastructure they have a lot more advancements now in the game so even if this has no pvp in it still works as a viable faction. Also this opens up a new venue of ships that they have never built before on the basis of civilian ships. Ships that are not designed for combat and more so on trading and speed as their main functions.

    So overall when you look at everything that this could do for the game you would see Cryptic and PWE pushing this out big time. Even with federation and kdf it also promotes new possibilities for types of ships that were never really conceivable before or there not being much focus towards. Especially the aspects of non-combat Star Trek canon is known for that could occur like space anomalies, temporal problems, pirates, etc. So you could see them pushing out more raiders to defend these players and get their dilithium that way and even could design it where the success of the person you are defending determines how much you get automatically. Also could pump out new kinds of officers and ship types like for example Dr. Crushers medical ship that could be potentially a new captain type and ship classification in the game. As well as science ships and newer ones that can be customized to take on more non-combative elements. So its really not a if it will ever happen its going to be a when this happens kind of thing because its a completely untapped market to create within the game which has been steadily over time declining. Being its never been done they could start it off properly like most things that got rushed into implementation.

    Personally I would be all for this in any way they could push it out because its that missing peg for the table for ships that a lot of star trek fans want to see but because of popularity with hero ships and such they never get made because of no overwhelming demand for them. I just hope if they do this that we be given abilities to convert existing characters into these roles like for example all my nausicaans, letheans, orions etc they would do great in a new area like this.

    That's the thing though, it is a role and not really a faction. People already roleplay characters like that, and making privateers a pseudo-faction like the Dominion would not really add to that since all the missions except for the "starter" scenario would the same ones as everyone else (just like it is for the horneytoads).

    They could add in pirate hangouts and add a background checkbox or something that says "privateer" to trigger different dialog or whatever but the devs are convinced that social areas are a waste of resources to create and maintain (and they are probably right considering the low population of the more out of the way social zones) and the game has drifted too far from a PvP enabling balance to easily make that a thing again.

    Also, judging from comments here in the forums and in the game chat people would probably rather they expand the current factions, and maybe even making the Dominion into something actually resembling a faction instead of just a fancy race unlock, adding more Romulan content, or bringing out more support for subfactions. While subfactions are almost all Fed there has been a lot of interest in expanding the Orions to a full subfaction of the KDF for instance (or at least giving them more support, like more ships and gear at the very least), along with making Kelvin and possibly Cardassians and/or Xindi official Fed subfactions like TOS and DSC.

    A big question in game design is weather a particular difference actually makes a difference, and the privateer thing probably does not make that cut unless they somehow decide to make STO another EVE Online.
  • trennantrennan Member Posts: 2,839 Arc User
    For those that doubt that this may ever happen, my self included. We have to keep in mind @ambassadorkael#6946 once ask the question, "What if we made an evil faction?" This was two or three years ago now.

    Granted, from what I remember reading, most of the players responses were in favor of this. However, it would also mean they'd have to do something about PvP, it would have to be a part of this. Which we all know they haven't really supported PvP since 2013. So, whatever became of this, I do not know.

    Just popping the reminder in there, that that did ask about this once. So it has at least been considered
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  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 686 Arc User
    the problem with a genuinely evil faction is they'd also need an entirely differant series of missions because said faction wouldn't nesscarily be working with the alliance. personally if they wanted to go that way I'd rather they just adjust mission text a bit more to account for the Klingons and Romulans. and occasionally even give optional objectives based around the factions so the Klingons and Jem Hadr might have a option to bash heads, the feddies to talk it out, and the romul;ans to sneaky sneaky. Much like how some episodes have a distinct option based on your class
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