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Just realized the Jupiter Class Carrier is bigger then DS9

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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 6,889 Arc User
    meimeitoo wrote: »
    trennan wrote: »
    The size of the Galaxy was dictated by having families aboard and the facilities to support them.

    Federation Council Member A - "I have a great idea! Let's make super huge ships and fill them full of families, including kids. Then we can send the off into space where the chance of death is extremely high."

    Every other council member: "Yeah, that is a GREAT idea."

    This only shows that the Federation doesn't actually care about it's people. Since they're creating ways to get rid of them.


    No, it shows the writers goofed. The idea of huge Galaxy class ship, for deep-space exploration, that could carry both personnel and their families, was in itself a perfectly good idea. Things started getting messed up, when the writers of TNG (and also movies) suddenly made the Galaxy Starfleet's most formidable warship as well. It was suddenly the 'flagship' of the Federation (aka, their most prominent ship for battle).

    Makes sense to me. Of all the ships to go up against the Borg Cube in BoBW only the Enterprise survived, so clearly the Galaxy Class was already well designed for combat.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 56,087 Community Moderator
    The Galaxy Class was a product of peace. She was well armed for combat yes, but she was designed as a long range exploration ship. The idea of having families on board was to help the crew members who have families not be seperated from their families for years on end.

    As a peacetime idea it worked pretty well for morale. The fact that the Galaxy Class was also basically the most powerful ship was because it was the cutting edge of technology at the time she was launched. I believe when tensions with the Dominion started going up, the practice of having families on starships was dropped due to shifting to a more war footing, as Galaxy class ships were, as mentioned, some of the more powerful ship designs Starfleet had.
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  • meimeitoomeimeitoo Member Posts: 12,415 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The Galaxy Class was a product of peace. She was well armed for combat yes, but she was designed as a long range exploration ship. The idea of having families on board was to help the crew members who have families not be seperated from their families for years on end.

    As a peacetime idea it worked pretty well for morale. The fact that the Galaxy Class was also basically the most powerful ship was because it was the cutting edge of technology at the time she was launched. I believe when tensions with the Dominion started going up, the practice of having families on starships was dropped due to shifting to a more war footing, as Galaxy class ships were, as mentioned, some of the more powerful ship designs Starfleet had.


    Good summation. :)

    Keep in mind, though, that while the Galaxy was certainly designed for combat too, already in Encounter at Farpoint the senior staff moves to the ship's battle bridge to do the actual fighting. Which is in line with the idea that one does not generally take entire families into combat. Using the battle bridge was soon thereafter abandoned. Probably because it gave the ship an oddball, 'amputated' look (like the first Robocop blowing up, and just its legs still standing). Also, the Galaxy's Phasers, if I understood things correctly, are firing from pretty much a 360 degree ring around the saucer: that too would break with just the battle bridge going it alone.

    Anyway, I'm fine with it all, really. I think it's more about what's right in the feels than anything else. The Galaxy class is a very iconic ship: ppl simply want to see it with saucer. And they want it to be the flagship. And that's all she wrote.
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  • avoozuulavoozuul Member Posts: 3,042 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    They could've given the Galaxy class a mechanic where when you use saucer separation the commander engi seat turns into a commander tac seat.
  • legendarylycan#5411 legendarylycan Member Posts: 37,017 Arc User
    trennan wrote: »
    The size of the Galaxy was dictated by having families aboard and the facilities to support them.

    Federation Council Member A - "I have a great idea! Let's make super huge ships and fill them full of families, including kids. Then we can send the off into space where the chance of death is extremely high."

    Every other council member: "Yeah, that is a GREAT idea."

    This only shows that the Federation doesn't actually care about it's people. Since they're creating ways to get rid of them.

    ​​
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  • mustrumridcully0mustrumridcully0 Member Posts: 12,961 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The Galaxy Class was a product of peace. She was well armed for combat yes, but she was designed as a long range exploration ship. The idea of having families on board was to help the crew members who have families not be seperated from their families for years on end..
    Exactly imagine cooping up 1000 people on a spaceship and tell them to on a deep space exploration mission for the next 2 decades, with no chance to visit their home and families because that will always be in the opposite direction they are flying, with one of the fastest ship available to the Galaxy.

    And besides that... Space in Star Trek is even more dangerous than it is in reality. There are weird space phenomena going on all the time, and Borg, Crystalline Entities, or some other newly discovered hostile species could easily destroy your home.

    At least if your family is with you aboard the starship, there is a chance you can do something to protect them, instead of just getting a subspace message informing you of the destruction of your home world due to some cosmic amobea.

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  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,684 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    The Galaxy Class was a product of peace. She was well armed for combat yes, but she was designed as a long range exploration ship. The idea of having families on board was to help the crew members who have families not be seperated from their families for years on end..
    Exactly imagine cooping up 1000 people on a spaceship and tell them to on a deep space exploration mission for the next 2 decades, with no chance to visit their home and families because that will always be in the opposite direction they are flying, with one of the fastest ship available to the Galaxy.

    And besides that... Space in Star Trek is even more dangerous than it is in reality. There are weird space phenomena going on all the time, and Borg, Crystalline Entities, or some other newly discovered hostile species could easily destroy your home.

    At least if your family is with you aboard the starship, there is a chance you can do something to protect them, instead of just getting a subspace message informing you of the destruction of your home world due to some cosmic amobea.
    I wonder how much of that is true and how much of that is illusion due to Starfleet going out of their way to look for those phenomena they're a exploration and sciencientific organization first and the UFP navy second.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 8,105 Community Moderator
    This was a Jupiter thread, though, yes?
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  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    > @spiritborn said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Small craft are intentionally up-scaled as if they were realistically scaled they would be practically invisible. In the end gameplay is more important that accurate scaling

    Ironically the Callistos are not upscale, they are about the size they should be appearance wise, but it looks weird when its by pets that are up scaled. Plus many of the fighters are really stand ins for dozens upon dozens of fighters the ship really would be equip with.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    > @rattler2 said:
    > The Galaxy Class was a product of peace. She was well armed for combat yes, but she was designed as a long range exploration ship. The idea of having families on board was to help the crew members who have families not be seperated from their families for years on end.
    >
    > As a peacetime idea it worked pretty well for morale. The fact that the Galaxy Class was also basically the most powerful ship was because it was the cutting edge of technology at the time she was launched. I believe when tensions with the Dominion started going up, the practice of having families on starships was dropped due to shifting to a more war footing, as Galaxy class ships were, as mentioned, some of the more powerful ship designs Starfleet had.

    Agreed families on board was a peace time practice which is why as the Dominion War began or the threat of Borg attacks and other dangers increased the practice stopped mostly (although some really distant exploration ships likely would not have had a chance to divest their families, but would have been too far from the battle lines to really need to anyways).
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    > @baddmoonrizin said:
    > This was a Jupiter thread, though, yes?

    That was my plan yes. Bringing it back to that, am I the only one who would love to see a JAYCE’S NAVY INTERSTELLAR article for the Jupiter Carrier?
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,684 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    > @spiritborn said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > Small craft are intentionally up-scaled as if they were realistically scaled they would be practically invisible. In the end gameplay is more important that accurate scaling

    Ironically the Callistos are not upscale, they are about the size they should be appearance wise, but it looks weird when its by pets that are up scaled. Plus many of the fighters are really stand ins for dozens upon dozens of fighters the ship really would be equip with.

    The Callisto is a Corvette that's about 100 meters or so in length, most shuttles are less then 1/5 of its length (Runabout are 25 meters are considered huge for small crafts. Type 6 shuttles are 6 meters according to Memory Alpha and Type J (aka the TOS shuttle) is about 7-7.5 meters, rest I don't have data on but are typically depicted to be with the same range.

    Next to the 650 meter GCS a Type 6 would be practically invisible at any reasonble playing distance if scaled correctly, in fact the smaller hangar pets tend to be practically invisible next to the larger ships as it is. the Callisto-class isn't up scaled because it's visible without needing to be upscaled something that's not true for shuttles or fighters.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    > @spiritborn said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > The Callisto is a Corvette that's about 100 meters or so in length, most shuttles are less then 1/5 of its length (Runabout are 25 meters are considered huge for small crafts. Type 6 shuttles are 6 meters according to Memory Alpha and Type J (aka the TOS shuttle) is about 7-7.5 meters, rest I don't have data on but are typically depicted to be with the same range.
    >
    > Next to the 650 meter GCS a Type 6 would be practically invisible at any reasonble playing distance if scaled correctly, in fact the smaller hangar pets tend to be practically invisible next to the larger ships as it is. the Callisto-class isn't up scaled because it's visible without needing to be upscaled something that's not true for shuttles or fighters.

    True, but the consquences of that is that fighters and Callistos look wrong beside each other.

    Btw where did you find out that Callistos are 100 meters roughly?
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,684 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    > @spiritborn said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > The Callisto is a Corvette that's about 100 meters or so in length, most shuttles are less then 1/5 of its length (Runabout are 25 meters are considered huge for small crafts. Type 6 shuttles are 6 meters according to Memory Alpha and Type J (aka the TOS shuttle) is about 7-7.5 meters, rest I don't have data on but are typically depicted to be with the same range.
    >
    > Next to the 650 meter GCS a Type 6 would be practically invisible at any reasonble playing distance if scaled correctly, in fact the smaller hangar pets tend to be practically invisible next to the larger ships as it is. the Callisto-class isn't up scaled because it's visible without needing to be upscaled something that's not true for shuttles or fighters.

    True, but the consquences of that is that fighters and Callistos look wrong beside each other.

    Btw where did you find out that Callistos are 100 meters roughly?
    Well the klingon equilevant is a Bird of Prey and those are roughly 100 meters, so the Callistos shouldn't really be much bigger nor much smaller as they seem to be built like starship rather then like a small craft. Also I went with my higher end estimate as it was more favorable to your point.

    yeah it's deduction but a one that makes sense. Though I suppose Callisto's could as low as 50 meters though that could make only twice as long as a Runabout and 5 times the length of typical shuttle.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    > @spiritborn said:
    > (Quote)
    > Well the klingon equilevant is a Bird of Prey and those are roughly 100 meters, so the Callistos shouldn't really be much bigger nor much smaller as they seem to be built like starship rather then like a small craft. Also I went with my higher end estimate as it was more favorable to your point.
    >
    > yeah it's deduction but a one that makes sense. Though I suppose Callisto's could as low as 50 meters though that could make only twice as long as a Runabout and 5 times the length of typical shuttle.

    Your logic seems sound to me, plus if it was smaller then 100 metres it would be hard to justify its wickedly high hull points for a pet.
  • spiritbornspiritborn Member Posts: 3,684 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    > @spiritborn said:
    > (Quote)
    > Well the klingon equilevant is a Bird of Prey and those are roughly 100 meters, so the Callistos shouldn't really be much bigger nor much smaller as they seem to be built like starship rather then like a small craft. Also I went with my higher end estimate as it was more favorable to your point.
    >
    > yeah it's deduction but a one that makes sense. Though I suppose Callisto's could as low as 50 meters though that could make only twice as long as a Runabout and 5 times the length of typical shuttle.

    Your logic seems sound to me, plus if it was smaller then 100 metres it would be hard to justify its wickedly high hull points for a pet.

    There's also the fact that the Callistos are classified as "corvettes" which traditionally have been the lightest of true warships (opposed to armed boats) so that entails a degree of firepower that probably isn't possible with a small hull (there's no room for the reactor).

    Personally I try to avoid using things like hit points when trying to determine how big a ship should be as those are only an "estimate" as to what endurance of the hull is and a sturdly built shuttlecraft would be able to take more damage then a poor built corvette, also HP is subject to gameplay limitations and compromises.
  • christopher082christopher082 Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    Thought this would be relevant. Fan Made Jupiter MSD on Redit
    https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/4fz89x/i_made_a_jupiter_class_carrier_msd/

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  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 644 Arc User
    As much as I am a Klingon fanboy and hate the whole goody goody fed theme (I loved the darker edge of DS9 and discovery) the federation design ethos makes perfect sense if you stop and think about it.

    The main starfleet cruisers are jack of all trades, built for exploration, defence, science and any role they may need to take on. If the feds have to go on a war footing they can recall something like the galaxy to a starbase or friendly planet and off-load the civvies.
  • captainbrian11captainbrian11 Member Posts: 724 Arc User
    Keep in mind in the era when the Galaxy was designed and built, starfleet hadn't (as far as we know) fought a major war in a century. Once the Khitmor Accords where signed, you basicly had a century of total peace, sure the UFP fought wars, but they where border skirmishes with regional powers (you never got the feeling the cardassian war that ended in the 2360s was a federation threatning war) so you saw ships designed to reflect this, they where designed to be roomy, comfortable to work on, with lots of space for science labs, or just general recreation. thus they where large, fairly tall etc. Meanwhile if you look at the ships built after the Klingon war of the 2250s ,the exelsior and constellation for example, they're fairly sleek and compact, offering reduced target profiles. flash forward to post wolf 359 ships, intrepid, soverign, Promethus, Defiant, they're all compact with reduced target profiles.

    the UFP's got a "war time" ship design philophesy. and a "peace time" design philophsy/
  • fallenkezef#4581 fallenkezef Member Posts: 644 Arc User
    > @captainbrian11 said:
    > Keep in mind in the era when the Galaxy was designed and built, starfleet hadn't (as far as we know) fought a major war in a century. Once the Khitmor Accords where signed, you basicly had a century of total peace, sure the UFP fought wars, but they where border skirmishes with regional powers (you never got the feeling the cardassian war that ended in the 2360s was a federation threatning war) so you saw ships designed to reflect this, they where designed to be roomy, comfortable to work on, with lots of space for science labs, or just general recreation. thus they where large, fairly tall etc. Meanwhile if you look at the ships built after the Klingon war of the 2250s ,the exelsior and constellation for example, they're fairly sleek and compact, offering reduced target profiles. flash forward to post wolf 359 ships, intrepid, soverign, Promethus, Defiant, they're all compact with reduced target profiles.
    >
    > the UFP's got a "war time" ship design philophesy. and a "peace time" design philophsy/

    There are real world examples of this if you look at the Britain's royal navy. In the 30's our cruiser designs such as the County and Town class where built as workhorses to patrol, defend and support the empire trade routes. They had good range, varied capabilities and where rugged.

    During the war our "war" cruisers such as the Dido class where smaller, less range and all about combat effectiveness.

    Now we are back to building multi-role ships for various maritime roles.
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,723 Arc User
    spiritborn wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    spiritborn wrote: »
    angrytarg wrote: »
    STO has a general problem with supersizing ships. Every new ship needs to be bigger than the last. Canonically, the Galaxy Class is the largest Starfleet ship class and it is already a flying city. In STO, every second ship is larger than that, the Oddyssey is even dwarfed already. Supercruisers and supercruisers wherever you look.​​

    You can't really blame the Universe on STO though as it's from canon and was insanely large even before it was included in STO.

    Some of the scaling is pretty bad though, for example the Fed runabout pets are as big if not bigger than my Calisto frigates

    Small craft are intentionally up-scaled as if they were realistically scaled they would be practically invisible. In the end gameplay is more important that accurate scaling

    Doesn't mean that a shuttle has to be the size of a escort...
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,723 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    trennan wrote: »
    The size of the Galaxy was dictated by having families aboard and the facilities to support them.

    Federation Council Member A - "I have a great idea! Let's make super huge ships and fill them full of families, including kids. Then we can send the off into space where the chance of death is extremely high."

    Every other council member: "Yeah, that is a GREAT idea."

    This only shows that the Federation doesn't actually care about it's people. Since they're creating ways to get rid of them.

    To be honest the era of TNG was like the golden era for Starfleet. Starfleet was advanced...treaty with the Klingons...rough treaty with the Cardassians (but they could keep ships with families away from them usually and remember Starfleet tech was superior to Cardassian) Romulans were keeping to themselves...not even in their darkest nightmares could the come up with something like the Borg.

    Things were great when a ship like the Galaxy class was designed...
  • angrytargangrytarg Member Posts: 10,928 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Keep in mind in the era when the Galaxy was designed and built, starfleet hadn't (as far as we know) fought a major war in a century. Once the Khitmor Accords where signed, you basicly had a century of total peace, sure the UFP fought wars, but they where border skirmishes with regional powers (you never got the feeling the cardassian war that ended in the 2360s was a federation threatning war) so you saw ships designed to reflect this, they where designed to be roomy, comfortable to work on, with lots of space for science labs, or just general recreation. thus they where large, fairly tall etc. Meanwhile if you look at the ships built after the Klingon war of the 2250s ,the exelsior and constellation for example, they're fairly sleek and compact, offering reduced target profiles. flash forward to post wolf 359 ships, intrepid, soverign, Promethus, Defiant, they're all compact with reduced target profiles.

    the UFP's got a "war time" ship design philophesy. and a "peace time" design philophsy/

    I really do not understand where people are always getting these ideas from. "War" or "Peace" is irrelevant for the design of the Galaxy Class and Starfleet's general orgnaization. The Galaxy Class is a explorer, it's meant to operate without support far away from home in badly known or even completely unknown regions of space where the crew will frequently find semi-omnipotent creatures that like to horribly murder your face for sport. The Galaxy and a lot of other exploration ships are power houses in their own right, made to face smaller fleets on their own. There is no "peaceful exploration" or "total peace" in ship design for Starfleet and it is the constant mischaracterization people have that create a lot of made up so called "errors" one likes to complain about.

    Granted, in a hot war situation you probably need to rapidly deploy numbers. We saw that in the Dominion war. Using on-screen examples and fluff from the Technical Manual, "wartime ships" are scrambled, understaffed and ill-equipped hulls thrown into service to support the well equipped heavy ships. Starfleet is always ready to perform defensive duties, at any time, because those Explorers are super heavy capital ships.​​
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,723 Arc User
    angrytarg wrote: »
    Keep in mind in the era when the Galaxy was designed and built, starfleet hadn't (as far as we know) fought a major war in a century. Once the Khitmor Accords where signed, you basicly had a century of total peace, sure the UFP fought wars, but they where border skirmishes with regional powers (you never got the feeling the cardassian war that ended in the 2360s was a federation threatning war) so you saw ships designed to reflect this, they where designed to be roomy, comfortable to work on, with lots of space for science labs, or just general recreation. thus they where large, fairly tall etc. Meanwhile if you look at the ships built after the Klingon war of the 2250s ,the exelsior and constellation for example, they're fairly sleek and compact, offering reduced target profiles. flash forward to post wolf 359 ships, intrepid, soverign, Promethus, Defiant, they're all compact with reduced target profiles.

    the UFP's got a "war time" ship design philophesy. and a "peace time" design philophsy/

    I really do not understand where people are always getting these ideas from. "War" or "Peace" is irrelevant for the design of the Galaxy Class and Starfleet's general orgnaization. The Galaxy Class is a explorer, it's meant to operate without support far away from home in badly known or even completely unknown regions of space where the crew will frequently find semi-omnipotent creatures that like to horribly murder your face for sport. The Galaxy and a lot of other exploration ships are power houses in their own right, made to face smaller fleets on their own. There is no "peaceful exploration" or "total peace" in ship design for Starfleet and it is the constant mischaracterization people have that create a lot of made up so called "errors" one likes to complain about.

    Granted, in a hot war situation you probably need to rapidly deploy numbers. We saw that in the Dominion war. Using on-screen examples and fluff from the Technical Manual, "wartime ships" are scrambled, understaffed and ill-equipped hulls thrown into service to support the well equipped heavy ships. Starfleet is always ready to perform defensive duties, at any time, because those Explorers are super heavy capital ships.​​

    In TOS Starfleet was considered a military organization by some or many, in TNG it was slanting more towards either being or wanting to be considered more explorers than military. While you're right you about the unknown being well, unknown...back in the known galaxy Starfleet really didn't have to worry about the major powers that were a threat to them back when Starfleet was seen as more of a military organization.

    Treaty with the Klingons and Romulans were self-isolated...Galaxy class being the premier Federation Cruiser would wipe the floor with the premier Cardassian Cruiser the Galor class. The Galaxy class was well armed, designed for exploration, and had a family element to it...something that wouldn't have been considered in the more dangerous times of Kirk's era.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    > @christopher082 said:
    > Thought this would be relevant. Fan Made Jupiter MSD on Redit
    > https://www.reddit.com/r/sto/comments/4fz89x/i_made_a_jupiter_class_carrier_msd/
    >
    > (Image)

    I have that picture and I adore it, simply adore it. It was the background on my previous computer thank you for reminding me to put it on my new computer I got for Christmas.
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    Is there even an out side chance that one of the Legacy Bundle Ships could be a Legacy Jupiter Carrier?
  • lordgyorlordgyor Member Posts: 2,818 Arc User
    https://adobeindd.com/view/publications/5d7ffcd8-7cf8-4561-a13a-5df451ef0511/hn8y/publication-web-resources/pdf/Jayce_Article.pdf

    This is mostly on the T6 Oddy's (except the new Legendary Verity Dreadnaught Version), but there are a few minor mentions of the Jupiter.
  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    spiritborn wrote: »
    The Callisto is a Corvette that's about 100 meters or so in length, most shuttles are less then 1/5 of its length (Runabout are 25 meters are considered huge for small crafts. Type 6 shuttles are 6 meters according to Memory Alpha and Type J (aka the TOS shuttle) is about 7-7.5 meters, rest I don't have data on but are typically depicted to be with the same range.
    lordgyor wrote: »
    Btw where did you find out that Callistos are 100 meters roughly?

    The Callisto is almost 200m (most likely 190m) long not 100. It's an Aquarius with a different wing setup (the fully folded wings on the Aquarius take it's length up to 200m).

    I don't know if there's a difference between the pet and playable models but it doesn't really matter, the size of the ship relative to the Odyssey makes it around 200m long making the Callisto more or less the same length. That's longer than the Defiant (170m in STO)

    The TOS shuttle is the Type F not the Type J.
    the UFP's got a "war time" ship design philophesy. and a "peace time" design philophsy/

    No it hasn't. It's got a 'tall ship' and 'short ship' philosophy. The only Starfleet ships that have a high vertical profile are the Conni (all versions of it), the Bonaventure from TAS, the Huron freighter from TAS, Galaxy, Niagara, Ambassador (all versions of it), and the Olympic. Other than those 7 classes every other Starfleet ship from the SS Emmett to the USS Sovereign all have long flat profiles no matter what era they were built in.

    Oh, and the Kelvin Timeline's Dreadnought Class, that's tall but not really a general Starfleet design.
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  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 7,723 Arc User
    lordgyor wrote: »
    Is there even an out side chance that one of the Legacy Bundle Ships could be a Legacy Jupiter Carrier?

    I would like a better Jupiter but I doubt it...so far all of the pack we know of has to do with ships seen on screen be it TV or movie.
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