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Should Star Wars Have Two official Timelines like what Star Trek dose that is Cannon?

ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 453 Arc User
Hi I been watching a lot of Star Wars lately and with the Rise of Skywalker Warning Spoilers here I come to think Should the whats known now as Legends should be an Alternate Timeline like the Kelvin Universe and Prime Timeline are now called? I think So and here is why; With Star Trek Rebooted in 2009 with the Birth of the Kelvin or JJ Universe it also gave birth to the Prime Timeline or the Original Timeline on witch allowed new stories be tooled in the 23rd Century and did not erase what came before but added on. So Why not Star Wars do the Same have a like a Disney Universe and Lucas film Universe on where Everything after Jedi is considered Legend can still be Cannon just be in an Alternate Reality they did established the Multiverse with in Star Wars all ready in Rebels and other media why not do it Star Trek Did it why not Star Wars
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,591 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Actually, they do. The Star Wars Expanded Universe still exists though Disney lumped it into the category "Legends" and it is no longer maintained as it was under Lucas (In fact, Disney does not allow any new EU material to be published, contrary to what they implied while negotiating with Lucasfilm). It is referred to as "Star Wars EU" or sometimes as "The Old Canon", (and a few people actually call it "Legends" though that has other connotations for those familiar with the SW EU so it is almost exclusively used in places like Wookiepedia where they have to be very careful and "politically correct" with their terminology to avoid Disney's notorious attack lawyers).
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    While some elements of the old Canon/EU have been brought over, such as Thrawn being in Rebels, what phoenixc said is true.
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  • jake477jake477 Member Posts: 504 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    No it should not. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars was always about Luke Skywalker and his family. The earliest Star Wars materials said and I quote "The continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker". Star Trek by contrast has multiple crews across different sectors of the franchises Galaxy all with with their own unique flavor and storytelling which allows for things like alternate realities and timelines. Star Wars is a gigantic epic with a family drama attached to it, it wouldn't make any sense for a family history to have alternate interpretations or timelines. Star Trek was about a group of people exploring the galaxy and overcoming challenges in an optimistic and albeit dangerous future.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    jake477 wrote: »
    No it should not. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars was always about Luke Skywalker and his family. The earliest Star Wars materials said and I quote "The continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker. Star Trek by contrast has multiple crews across different sectors of the franchises Galaxy all with with their own unique flavor and storytelling which allows for things like alternate realities and timelines. Star Wars is a gigantic epic with a family drama attached to it, it wouldn't make any sense for a family history to have alternate interpretations or timelines. Star Trek was about a group of people exploring the galaxy and overcoming challenges in an optimistic and albeit dangerous future.

    Countered by the Prequel Trilogy, which was set before Luke was born, and the existance of movies like Rogue One and Solo (which have NOTHING to do with Luke Skywalker), the existance of The Mandalorian, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance...

    So like Star Trek, Star Wars has evolved to be a whole universe full of stories that can be told. It is not just about Luke Skywalker anymore.

    Saying that the earliest materials say it ONLY follows Luke Skywalker makes it sound like they are not allowed to expand upon the universe whatsoever. It would be like saying that Star Trek is originally only about the continuing adventures of Captain Kirk and the crew of the USS Enterprise.
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  • jake477jake477 Member Posts: 504 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    jake477 wrote: »
    No it should not. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars was always about Luke Skywalker and his family. The earliest Star Wars materials said and I quote "The continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker. Star Trek by contrast has multiple crews across different sectors of the franchises Galaxy all with with their own unique flavor and storytelling which allows for things like alternate realities and timelines. Star Wars is a gigantic epic with a family drama attached to it, it wouldn't make any sense for a family history to have alternate interpretations or timelines. Star Trek was about a group of people exploring the galaxy and overcoming challenges in an optimistic and albeit dangerous future.

    Countered by the Prequel Trilogy, which was set before Luke was born, and the existance of movies like Rogue One and Solo (which have NOTHING to do with Luke Skywalker), the existance of The Mandalorian, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance...

    So like Star Trek, Star Wars has evolved to be a whole universe full of stories that can be told. It is not just about Luke Skywalker anymore.

    Saying that the earliest materials say it ONLY follows Luke Skywalker makes it sound like they are not allowed to expand upon the universe whatsoever. It would be like saying that Star Trek is originally only about the continuing adventures of Captain Kirk and the crew of the USS Enterprise.

    You are right to a point.

    1. The Prequels were designed to set up Luke Skywalker and told the story of HIS father.

    2. Rogue One explained why Luke was able to destroy the Death Star in the first movie

    3. The Clone Wars were again introduced in the very first Star Wars movie. Luke even brought them up.

    Like I said earlier, its a greater EPIC with a family drama attached. In some way or another it all connects back to Skywalker or his family.

    The Mandalorian breaks that mold and has zero connect to anything Skywalker. This is the first time that has ever happened.

    Star Trek by contrast starts off fresh with every crew and starship/station. Sure they may reference Kirk's past missions but very few are truly connected which opens up the playbook for more other world adventures. Star Wars had no such luxury till Mando came along. Why do you think Disney killed off Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi?
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  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,591 Arc User
    jake477 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    jake477 wrote: »
    No it should not. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars was always about Luke Skywalker and his family. The earliest Star Wars materials said and I quote "The continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker. Star Trek by contrast has multiple crews across different sectors of the franchises Galaxy all with with their own unique flavor and storytelling which allows for things like alternate realities and timelines. Star Wars is a gigantic epic with a family drama attached to it, it wouldn't make any sense for a family history to have alternate interpretations or timelines. Star Trek was about a group of people exploring the galaxy and overcoming challenges in an optimistic and albeit dangerous future.

    Countered by the Prequel Trilogy, which was set before Luke was born, and the existance of movies like Rogue One and Solo (which have NOTHING to do with Luke Skywalker), the existance of The Mandalorian, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance...

    So like Star Trek, Star Wars has evolved to be a whole universe full of stories that can be told. It is not just about Luke Skywalker anymore.

    Saying that the earliest materials say it ONLY follows Luke Skywalker makes it sound like they are not allowed to expand upon the universe whatsoever. It would be like saying that Star Trek is originally only about the continuing adventures of Captain Kirk and the crew of the USS Enterprise.

    You are right to a point.

    1. The Prequels were designed to set up Luke Skywalker and told the story of HIS father.

    2. Rogue One explained why Luke was able to destroy the Death Star in the first movie

    3. The Clone Wars were again introduced in the very first Star Wars movie. Luke even brought them up.

    Like I said earlier, its a greater EPIC with a family drama attached. In some way or another it all connects back to Skywalker or his family.

    The Mandalorian breaks that mold and has zero connect to anything Skywalker. This is the first time that has ever happened.

    Star Trek by contrast starts off fresh with every crew and starship/station. Sure they may reference Kirk's past missions but very few are truly connected which opens up the playbook for more other world adventures. Star Wars had no such luxury till Mando came along. Why do you think Disney killed off Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi?

    Actually, a big part of why Disney killed off Luke Skywalker was because that was the only way Mark Hamill would reprise his role as Luke, just like why Solo was killed off in the movie before that one. Carrie Fisher was the only one of the three who did not mind doing all three of the new movies (though she never got the chance to finish them all).
  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    jake477 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    jake477 wrote: »
    No it should not. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars was always about Luke Skywalker and his family. The earliest Star Wars materials said and I quote "The continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker. Star Trek by contrast has multiple crews across different sectors of the franchises Galaxy all with with their own unique flavor and storytelling which allows for things like alternate realities and timelines. Star Wars is a gigantic epic with a family drama attached to it, it wouldn't make any sense for a family history to have alternate interpretations or timelines. Star Trek was about a group of people exploring the galaxy and overcoming challenges in an optimistic and albeit dangerous future.

    Countered by the Prequel Trilogy, which was set before Luke was born, and the existance of movies like Rogue One and Solo (which have NOTHING to do with Luke Skywalker), the existance of The Mandalorian, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance...

    So like Star Trek, Star Wars has evolved to be a whole universe full of stories that can be told. It is not just about Luke Skywalker anymore.

    Saying that the earliest materials say it ONLY follows Luke Skywalker makes it sound like they are not allowed to expand upon the universe whatsoever. It would be like saying that Star Trek is originally only about the continuing adventures of Captain Kirk and the crew of the USS Enterprise.

    You are right to a point.

    1. The Prequels were designed to set up Luke Skywalker and told the story of HIS father.

    2. Rogue One explained why Luke was able to destroy the Death Star in the first movie

    3. The Clone Wars were again introduced in the very first Star Wars movie. Luke even brought them up.

    Like I said earlier, its a greater EPIC with a family drama attached. In some way or another it all connects back to Skywalker or his family.

    The Mandalorian breaks that mold and has zero connect to anything Skywalker. This is the first time that has ever happened.

    Star Trek by contrast starts off fresh with every crew and starship/station. Sure they may reference Kirk's past missions but very few are truly connected which opens up the playbook for more other world adventures. Star Wars had no such luxury till Mando came along. Why do you think Disney killed off Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi?

    Actually, a big part of why Disney killed off Luke Skywalker was because that was the only way Mark Hamill would reprise his role as Luke, just like why Solo was killed off in the movie before that one. Carrie Fisher was the only one of the three who did not mind doing all three of the new movies (though she never got the chance to finish them all).
    [citation needed]

    I follow Hamill on Twitter. His only "reluctance" came with the idea of ever playing Luke again; as he put it, "I told Disney, if Harrison Ford signs on, so will I." He was as shocked as anyone to read his character's fate in TLJ, although unlike a fair number of fans he thought Luke's end fit in perfectly with what Yoda kept telling us of the Jedi philosophy in TESB, especially the part about a Jedi using the Force "only for defense, never for attack". He also expects to be back in future installments, even if only in a translucent glowing blue form.
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  • evilmark444evilmark444 Member Posts: 5,829 Arc User
    I personally wish they would start producing Legends continuity novels again, and possibly some animated adaptations of Legends stories for Disney+. In addition to that I think something they introduced in Rebels, the world between worlds, provides a potential means for a crossover between the timelines.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    At least they canonized Thrawn.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    At least they canonized Thrawn.

    Now if they only canonize Mara Jade.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    Yup. We need Mara Jade. Unfortunately its looking like she won't be Mara Jade Skywalker though. Unless somehow Luke met her before TFA.
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    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
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    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • ryurangerryuranger Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    Well I think what Disney is doing is using legends as a references Guide for Star Wars for Producers to use and I think everything before the formation of the Galactic Republic (Old Republic) should remain Cannon and everything after Jedi before Disney bought Lucas films should be consider Legends or Alternate Universe or Beta Cannon like the Novels and Comics for Star Trek Are
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yup. We need Mara Jade. Unfortunately its looking like she won't be Mara Jade Skywalker though. Unless somehow Luke met her before TFA.

    Her story is good with the whole former Emperor's Hand finally redeems herself and becomes a Jedi without the need for Luke Skywalker's romance. I personally think that the new Star Wars movies would be far better with Mara Jade or her daughter as the protagonist instead of Rey.
  • starswordcstarswordc Member Posts: 10,945 Arc User
    starkaos wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Yup. We need Mara Jade. Unfortunately its looking like she won't be Mara Jade Skywalker though. Unless somehow Luke met her before TFA.

    Her story is good with the whole former Emperor's Hand finally redeems herself and becomes a Jedi without the need for Luke Skywalker's romance. I personally think that the new Star Wars movies would be far better with Mara Jade or her daughter as the protagonist instead of Rey.

    The Palpatine geas and her romance with Luke weren't actually connected: the Thrawn trilogy and Hand of Thrawn take place ten years apart. (She actually had a flirtation with Lando in the Jedi Academy trilogy, although that was retconned as being part of a cover identity.)
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  • jonsillsjonsills Member Posts: 9,288 Arc User
    It may be worth noting at this point that the Star Wars Legends timeline isn't, strictly speaking, an "alternate timeline"; rather, it's supposed to be the legends that are told around the galaxy about the characters' adventures. Kind of like the legends of King Arthur, who may or may not have had a historical antecedent but most certainly did not ever rule the entire island-nation of England and ensure peace and prosperity across the region; or the stories spread by writers like Mason Locke Weems about the supposed childhood of George Washington (how many people here believe the tale of young George chopping down a cherry tree, then turning himself in? Show of hands!); or Australian aborigine tales of the Dreamtime; or... well, let's just say that "history" is replete with legends that can't be verified, or that can be shown to be false, but which people believe fervently because it pleases them to do so.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    It may be worth noting at this point that the Star Wars Legends timeline isn't, strictly speaking, an "alternate timeline"; rather, it's supposed to be the legends that are told around the galaxy about the characters' adventures. Kind of like the legends of King Arthur, who may or may not have had a historical antecedent but most certainly did not ever rule the entire island-nation of England and ensure peace and prosperity across the region; or the stories spread by writers like Mason Locke Weems about the supposed childhood of George Washington (how many people here believe the tale of young George chopping down a cherry tree, then turning himself in? Show of hands!); or Australian aborigine tales of the Dreamtime; or... well, let's just say that "history" is replete with legends that can't be verified, or that can be shown to be false, but which people believe fervently because it pleases them to do so.

    It depends on if the novel is before Return of the Jedi or after. If it is part of Legends and before Return of the Jedi, then it can be classified as a legend told by inhabitants of the Star Wars universe. If it is after Return of the Jedi, then it is an alternate timeline. After all, I don't remember seeing Jacen Solo, Jaina Solo, Ben Skywalker, or Yuuzhan Vong in any of the movies.
  • mirrorchaosmirrorchaos Member Posts: 9,817 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    rattler2 wrote: »
    jake477 wrote: »
    No it should not. Unlike Star Trek, Star Wars was always about Luke Skywalker and his family. The earliest Star Wars materials said and I quote "The continuing adventures of Luke Skywalker. Star Trek by contrast has multiple crews across different sectors of the franchises Galaxy all with with their own unique flavor and storytelling which allows for things like alternate realities and timelines. Star Wars is a gigantic epic with a family drama attached to it, it wouldn't make any sense for a family history to have alternate interpretations or timelines. Star Trek was about a group of people exploring the galaxy and overcoming challenges in an optimistic and albeit dangerous future.

    Countered by the Prequel Trilogy, which was set before Luke was born, and the existance of movies like Rogue One and Solo (which have NOTHING to do with Luke Skywalker), the existance of The Mandalorian, The Clone Wars, Rebels, Resistance...


    Solo is directly connected to Luke Skywalker through Han Solo and how he hooked up with Chewbacca. Chewbacca helped Yoda escape Kashyyyk as well. Yoda couldn't train Luke years later without Chewbacca's help, and Luke wouldn't of gotten as far as he had without Han's help. So saying they had nothing to do with Luke is a complete lie by itself.

    Rogue one introduced the suicide crew that stole the deathstar plans that helped Luke in his starfighter find where to go and what to do, while the force guided his actions to the target, he wouldn't of known about that exhaust port to fire down, or where to go on the surface without those plans. So another lie.

    The Clone wars establishes Luke's father as the person he was and the history of the man, that helps you learn how Luke was able to reach his father in the end and indirectly Obi-wan Kenobi, who would not only save Luke from Maul but help Luke realise his own potential. so another lie.

    Rebels recounts of the storied history of how the Rebellion worked in the earlier days and how Princess Leia was connected to it, just like she was with Rogue one, and how she managed to do her part to help Luke later on with the Deathstar. Without the Rebels being there to help Leia in her missions the Rebellion wouldn't been able to take on the empire as effectively as they had. That had a direct bearing on events leading to Luke. indirectly another lie.

    Resistance is indirectly connected by Luke through the events of the destruction of the old empire and the death stars and how the main character is tied to it by way of Princess Leia, who couldn't of been in the position she had or even Kazuda without the empire being destroyed first. another indirect lie.


    Too soon to say if the Mandalorian has no connection to Luke Skywalker, it has only been one season. Minimally on the face of it, the three new republic fighters taking down that old space station hints indirectly about empires destruction and Luke's role.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    Too soon to say if the Mandalorian has no connection to Luke Skywalker, it has only been one season. Minimally on the face of it, the three new republic fighters taking down that old space station hints indirectly about empires destruction and Luke's role.

    There is some connection with Yoda and Baby Yoda being from the same species, but not everything has to go back to Luke.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    Yea... honestly its all a big stretch to tie EVERYTHING to Luke like that.
    "Oh it IS about Luke because this is how they got this so he could do that" is a bit generic of a reason. Just because it was Luke who pulled the trigger doesn't mean anything. It could have been ANY pilot that made that shot. Hell... Red Leader almost made the shot himself.

    The only things tied directly to the Skywalker family is the main nine movies. Rogue One is the story of how they got the Death Star plans before Ep4. Solo was about how Han became the rogue we know, how he met Chewie, and how he got the Falcon. None of these are dependant on Luke at all. It could have been some guy named Moe who made the shot, and the events of Rogue One and Solo would still be exactly the same.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    edited January 2020
    ryuranger wrote: »
    With Star Trek Rebooted in 2009

    Star Trek was never rebooted. The KT films are a continuation series that branch off into an alternate timeline. That's not a reboot.

    The Star Wars ST is a part of a reboot because the entire SW canon was recreated. The KT films don't touch the canon status of any part of the Trek franchise as they're just another three films in a series where only the films and shows are canon.
    ryuranger wrote: »
    with the Birth of the Kelvin or JJ Universe

    Kelvin Timeline. Not universe, no mention of the director of the first film, timeline.
    kt-blu-set.jpg

    It has an official series name which is taken from the setting of the films in the same way Deep Space 9, Voyager, Enterprise, and Discovery are. It would be like calling the former Deep Space 6 or the Piller/Behr show, i.e. completely wrong.
    ryuranger wrote: »
    it also gave birth to the Prime Timeline or the Original Timeline on witch allowed new stories be tooled in the 23rd Century and did not erase what came before but added on.

    That started with Mirror Mirror in TOS (or possibly one of the other time travel story's, I haven't seen much TOS) not with the 09 film.
    ryuranger wrote: »
    So Why not Star Wars do the Same have a like a Disney Universe and Lucas film Universe on where Everything after Jedi is considered Legend can still be Cannon just be in an Alternate Reality they did established the Multiverse with in Star Wars all ready in Rebels and other media why not do it Star Trek Did it why not Star Wars

    Why? Lucas didn't like most of the EU and was the reason most of it was relegated to those bizarre 'levels' of canon. There's also no split between Disney and Lucasfilm, Disney owns the whole lot, everything Star Wars related, all of it.

    Besides, there's no mechanism for alternate universes or timeline in Star Wars where as Star Trek does (dozens of them, not just the Kelvin Timeline) and even if there was it wouldn't suddenly make all the old EU bollocks canon. You would also need alternate timelines to put all the pre-RotJ EU material in.
    ryuranger wrote: »
    Alternate Universe or Beta Cannon like the Novels and Comics for Star Trek Are

    The Star Trek novels are neither alternate timelines to the canonical material nor canonical material of any sort (beta canon is a made up fan term).

    And a 'cannon' is a weapon for firing shells at ships, the word you're looking for is 'canon'.

    The IP owners of SW decided they wanted to change what material was considered canon to them, if you are bothered about the jettisoned material feel free to include it in your own headcanon. Canon is a tool for IP protection, rights management, and story direction not fans.
    Post edited by artan42 on
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    As much as I like parts of the Star Wars EU, is it even canon? I figure it is as much canon as Star Trek Online or the Typhon Pact novels. We can argue that the EU, Star Trek Online, and Typhon Pact exist in alternate realities, but even before the Disney buyout, Lucasfilms would have done the same thing that Disney did if they ever decided to make a sequel.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    artan42 wrote: »
    Besides, there's no mechanism for alternate universes or timeline in Star Wars where as Star Trek does (dozens of them, not just the Kelvin Timeline) and even if there was it wouldn't suddenly make all the old EU bollocks canon. You would also need alternate timelines to put all the pre-RotJ EU material in.

    Well... I think there was something that was brought up in Rebels that could be viable. Other than that there are no KNOWN anomalies or tears in the fabric of space/time that could facilitate crossover events like we see in Star Trek.
    Closest we got to a confirmed anomaly is The Maw, but... that's a black hole cluster.
    There just isn't the scientific expeditions or anything in Star Wars that we see in Star Trek.

    Could they exist? Yes.
    Does the Republic, Empire, or whatever comes up now after Rise of Skywalker? Probably not. Star Wars tech has been somewhat stagnant for... thousands of years? At best weapons tech has been improved. The only real instance of anything beyond weapons tech being developed that we've seen is the Hyperspace Tracker the First Order had, and that was being used in a military capacity.

    Hell... other than more effecient components, the Ebon Hawk from KoTOR would probably be a match for the Millennium Falcon, and they're thousands of years apart from each other! Speed wise Falcon wins. Firepower wise... probably goes to the Hawk.
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Well... I think there was something that was brought up in Rebels that could be viable.

    That world between the worlds thing? It just seems to be a Force heavy place that allows for glimpses of the past/future and some interaction (such as rescuing Ashoka). There's nothing in it that sugests it's anything other than an extension of the Force Visions.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    There just isn't the scientific expeditions or anything in Star Wars that we see in Star Trek.

    It doesn't need to be 'scientific', the Force is magic and magic can lead to time travel and alternate timelines, it just doesn't in SW.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Star Wars tech has been somewhat stagnant for... thousands of years? At best weapons tech has been improved. The only real instance of anything beyond weapons tech being developed that we've seen is the Hyperspace Tracker the First Order had, and that was being used in a military capacity.

    Canonically the tech has been stagnant since slightly prior to the Battle of Naboo as that's the earliest time period seen. That's only about 70 years.
    starkaos wrote: »
    As much as I like parts of the Star Wars EU, is it even canon? I figure it is as much canon as Star Trek Online or the Typhon Pact novels.

    The pre-Disney EU is exactly as canon now as the ST games and books are, i.e. not at all. The current EU (i.e. any material not a film or TV series) are mostly canon with some exceptions (e.g. gameplay mechanics, some junior novelisation etc.).
    starkaos wrote: »
    We can argue that the EU, Star Trek Online, and Typhon Pact exist in alternate realities

    The latter do. Because ST has the mechanics to make that happen. The former is called 'Legends' because they don't have that mechanic so they're promoted to in-universe tales.
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    Norway and Yeager dammit... I still want my Typhoon and Jupiter though.
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    '...The Federation. Starfleet. We're not a military agency.' Scotty: Beyond
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    artan42 wrote: »
    The latter do. Because ST has the mechanics to make that happen. The former is called 'Legends' because they don't have that mechanic so they're promoted to in-universe tales.

    But how can any novel that occurred after Return of the Jedi be considered as in-universe tales or legends? There is no sane reason for the Star Wars universe to create tales about Han and Leia's fictional children or a fictional romance with Luke Skywalker. The EU after Return of the Jedi would essentially be celebrity fanfiction, tabloids, or fake news.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    I don't see how they can be "in-universe tales" either. Honestly I think its just for us in the real world to differenciate between the old EU and current canon.
    artan42 wrote: »
    That world between the worlds thing? It just seems to be a Force heavy place that allows for glimpses of the past/future and some interaction (such as rescuing Ashoka). There's nothing in it that sugests it's anything other than an extension of the Force Visions.

    We're not sure as to the full extent honestly. For all we know it IS fully capable of cross dimentional travel. We literally just scratched the surface.
    It doesn't need to be 'scientific', the Force is magic and magic can lead to time travel and alternate timelines, it just doesn't in SW.
    That we're aware of.
    Canonically the tech has been stagnant since slightly prior to the Battle of Naboo as that's the earliest time period seen. That's only about 70 years.
    I believe it was implied that Hyperspace tech has been relatively unchanged for far longer than 70 years. Mostly improvements to effeciency, which leads to some faster speeds. Other than that... it all seems to be relatively the same. An old pre-Clone Wars Naboo Blaster is just as effective as an F-11 Blaster Rifle used by the First Order in Rise of Skywalker.The only advances seems to be in microsizing existing tech. We saw FO TIEs with Hyperdrives, when Imperial TIEs didn't. And those are TINY craft.

    But for the most part it feels like the tech that existed at the Battle of Naboo has been basically the same as that for quite a while. Maybe minor improvements here and there, but otherwise unchanged.
    Probably the biggest offender on the stagnation is the fact that most tech seems to be pretty much Galactic Standardization. A CIS Providence pretty much had the same exact systems and processing capabilities as a Republic Venator. The weapons had the exact same performance...

    I think the most we hear about foreign tech is the control systems on Mon Cal ships being geared for Mon Cals, the organic tech used by the Gungans, and the tech used by the bugs on Genosis. Other than that... most of the galaxy's tech is standardized.
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  • starkaosstarkaos Member Posts: 11,473 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Canonically the tech has been stagnant since slightly prior to the Battle of Naboo as that's the earliest time period seen. That's only about 70 years.
    I believe it was implied that Hyperspace tech has been relatively unchanged for far longer than 70 years. Mostly improvements to effeciency, which leads to some faster speeds. Other than that... it all seems to be relatively the same. An old pre-Clone Wars Naboo Blaster is just as effective as an F-11 Blaster Rifle used by the First Order in Rise of Skywalker.The only advances seems to be in microsizing existing tech. We saw FO TIEs with Hyperdrives, when Imperial TIEs didn't. And those are TINY craft.

    But for the most part it feels like the tech that existed at the Battle of Naboo has been basically the same as that for quite a while. Maybe minor improvements here and there, but otherwise unchanged.
    Probably the biggest offender on the stagnation is the fact that most tech seems to be pretty much Galactic Standardization. A CIS Providence pretty much had the same exact systems and processing capabilities as a Republic Venator. The weapons had the exact same performance...

    I think the most we hear about foreign tech is the control systems on Mon Cal ships being geared for Mon Cals, the organic tech used by the Gungans, and the tech used by the bugs on Genosis. Other than that... most of the galaxy's tech is standardized.

    There is not much difference between the technology in The Old Republic and the Star Wars movies. So that is at least 3000 years of stagnant growth according to non-canon.
  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 2,591 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Well... I think there was something that was brought up in Rebels that could be viable.

    That world between the worlds thing? It just seems to be a Force heavy place that allows for glimpses of the past/future and some interaction (such as rescuing Ashoka). There's nothing in it that sugests it's anything other than an extension of the Force Visions.

    There is also Mortis, it apparently existed outside of the "normal" space of Star Wars like the World Between Worlds does, who's to say that other realms could not be out there besides just Mortis and the WBW, maybe even including a big (and more solid) one containing the old SW EU. For that matter, even hyperspace could be a sign that other dimensions/timelines exist, in some sci-fi that sort of jumpspace is actually the barrier between space-time continuums. It is an issue that has simply never been directly addressed in canon.
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    There just isn't the scientific expeditions or anything in Star Wars that we see in Star Trek.

    It doesn't need to be 'scientific', the Force is magic and magic can lead to time travel and alternate timelines, it just doesn't in SW.

    True, whether it is scientific or magical is irrelevant to the observation of the relatively stagnant nature of any sort of magical or scientific discovery in Star Wars. However, in theory, the same sort of dimensional phenomena that is in Star Trek could be in Star Wars but since no one seems to be interested in looking for it (or any other kind of quantum/magical weirdness for that matter) they would not know about it unless someone stumbled on it by accident (and even then it would probably not generate any noticeable interest in the general population).
    artan42 wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Star Wars tech has been somewhat stagnant for... thousands of years? At best weapons tech has been improved. The only real instance of anything beyond weapons tech being developed that we've seen is the Hyperspace Tracker the First Order had, and that was being used in a military capacity.

    Canonically the tech has been stagnant since slightly prior to the Battle of Naboo as that's the earliest time period seen. That's only about 70 years.
    starkaos wrote: »
    As much as I like parts of the Star Wars EU, is it even canon? I figure it is as much canon as Star Trek Online or the Typhon Pact novels.

    The pre-Disney EU is exactly as canon now as the ST games and books are, i.e. not at all. The current EU (i.e. any material not a film or TV series) are mostly canon with some exceptions (e.g. gameplay mechanics, some junior novelisation etc.).
    starkaos wrote: »
    We can argue that the EU, Star Trek Online, and Typhon Pact exist in alternate realities

    The latter do. Because ST has the mechanics to make that happen. The former is called 'Legends' because they don't have that mechanic so they're promoted to in-universe tales.

    Actually, the way Disney worded it the EU is still canon, just not active canon. They specifically said that they were not destroying the EU, they were setting it aside intact and only considered the Movies and whatever they make the active canon (then later they brought in the Clone Wars series to the active canon). They were at least smart enough to realize the fans would have crucified them and boycotted if they did not frame it as splitting the canon instead of destroying it outright.

    So technically they do have two continuities, not just one, even if the they only gave lip service to it and shoved the old one in a box and have their attack lawyers sitting on it like Cerberus guarding the gates to the Underworld to keep anyone from doing anything with it.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    Also they have adapted some elements of Legends into Canon. Prime example, fan favorite novel character Admiral Thrawn.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • artan42artan42 Member Posts: 10,450 Bug Hunter
    starkaos wrote: »
    artan42 wrote: »
    The latter do. Because ST has the mechanics to make that happen. The former is called 'Legends' because they don't have that mechanic so they're promoted to in-universe tales.

    But how can any novel that occurred after Return of the Jedi be considered as in-universe tales or legends? There is no sane reason for the Star Wars universe to create tales about Han and Leia's fictional children or a fictional romance with Luke Skywalker. The EU after Return of the Jedi would essentially be celebrity fanfiction, tabloids, or fake news.

    I don't know, you'll have to take it up with Disney not me. I didn't come up with it.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    We're not sure as to the full extent honestly. For all we know it IS fully capable of cross dimentional travel. We literally just scratched the surface.

    Yes, but that still means there's no reason to assume it actually can be used for that any more than we could assume that hyperspace could be used for that purpose.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    That we're aware of.

    My point was using existing in-universe mechanisms for alternate timelines/universes not adding functions onto unrelated concepts.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    I believe it was implied that Hyperspace tech has been relatively unchanged for far longer than 70 years. Mostly improvements to effeciency, which leads to some faster speeds. Other than that... it all seems to be relatively the same. An old pre-Clone Wars Naboo Blaster is just as effective as an F-11 Blaster Rifle used by the First Order in Rise of Skywalker.The only advances seems to be in microsizing existing tech. We saw FO TIEs with Hyperdrives, when Imperial TIEs didn't. And those are TINY craft.

    But for the most part it feels like the tech that existed at the Battle of Naboo has been basically the same as that for quite a while. Maybe minor improvements here and there, but otherwise unchanged.
    Probably the biggest offender on the stagnation is the fact that most tech seems to be pretty much Galactic Standardization. A CIS Providence pretty much had the same exact systems and processing capabilities as a Republic Venator. The weapons had the exact same performance...

    I think the most we hear about foreign tech is the control systems on Mon Cal ships being geared for Mon Cals, the organic tech used by the Gungans, and the tech used by the bugs on Genosis. Other than that... most of the galaxy's tech is standardized.

    My point was that there's stagnation for at least 70 years (maybe up to 100 by taking into account the standardisation between all forces in TPM) and not 1000s of years in canon.

    They're also not exactly equal, the CIS was winning the Clone Wars because their droids were produced quicker than clones and the B1s were more or less identical in performance to the mook level clones in TCW and the B2s and Destroyer Droids were much better than Clones.
    The Rebel ships also seemed better than Imperial stuff, especially the B and X Wings compared to all but the TIE Defenders.
    starkaos wrote: »
    There is not much difference between the technology in The Old Republic and the Star Wars movies. So that is at least 3000 years of stagnant growth according to non-canon.

    Therefore can be ignored as the fanfiction it is.

    Until Disney create some Old Republic content we know nothing of that period beyond Darth Bane's appearance in TCW.
    There is also Mortis, it apparently existed outside of the "normal" space of Star Wars like the World Between Worlds does, who's to say that other realms could not be out there besides just Mortis and the WBW, maybe even including a big (and more solid) one containing the old SW EU.

    Mortis didn't exist outside normal space it was just impossible to access unless you were brought in. The Son wanted a Starship (flashbacks of ST:V there) to escape it.
    For that matter, even hyperspace could be a sign that other dimensions/timelines exist, in some sci-fi that sort of jumpspace is actually the barrier between space-time continuums. It is an issue that has simply never been directly addressed in canon.

    From the way it interacts with normal space it's clearly just another spatial dimension. Obviously it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it could be used to create the mechanism for alternate timelines/universes, by writers not paying attention to how it's worked in the past, but there's nothing to indicate that which is why I never considered it a possibility for creating alternate timelines which is the entire point.
    True, whether it is scientific or magical is irrelevant to the observation of the relatively stagnant nature of any sort of magical or scientific discovery in Star Wars. However, in theory, the same sort of dimensional phenomena that is in Star Trek could be in Star Wars but since no one seems to be interested in looking for it (or any other kind of quantum/magical weirdness for that matter) they would not know about it unless someone stumbled on it by accident (and even then it would probably not generate any noticeable interest in the general population).

    From a narrative point of view there is no reason at all why not.
    From a in-universe perspective there is a reason to assume things don't work the same. The existence of a Galaxy (potentially Universe) spanning field of magic written into the functioning of life isn't a thing in ST (locally on Bajor potentially, but not Galaxy-wide), similarly time travel in SW is limited to the single instance of Ezri rescuing Ashoka from Melakor with no mention (even out of universe) of paradoxes or alternate timelines, it's simply how the events always played out. Whereas in Trek there's several different forms of time travel with all sorts of different consequences.
    Actually, the way Disney worded it the EU is still canon, just not active canon.

    No, it's now no longer part of the main SW canon.
    They may be doing some sort of thing like Buffy is doing where there are two canons running almost in parallel (the BOOM reboot and the old TV/comic continuation canon that's still getting the occasional work) but that still essentially works out to the same thing because they're two separate entities. Probably done for the same reason as the Buffy example as TOR MMO is still live and cutting it off completely would probably be bad for business.
    They specifically said that they were not destroying the EU, they were setting it aside intact and only considered the Movies and whatever they make the active canon (then later they brought in the Clone Wars series to the active canon).

    TCW was added immediately, it was always the 6 saga films and TCW and then any future material, the only pre-Disney material they added was the Sons of Dathomir comic from IDW (or Dark Horse) because the new licence was with Marvel.
    They were at least smart enough to realize the fans would have crucified them and boycotted if they did not frame it as splitting the canon instead of destroying it outright.

    The majority of fans wouldn't even notice, the percentage of the population that watched TFA that noticed it wasn't The Dark Empire would have been insignificant.
    So technically they do have two continuities, not just one, even if the they only gave lip service to it and shoved the old one in a box and have their attack lawyers sitting on it like Cerberus guarding the gates to the Underworld to keep anyone from doing anything with it.

    That's a lot of hyperbole for an IP owner expressing their rights over their IP.
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Also they have adapted some elements of Legends into Canon. Prime example, fan favorite novel character Admiral Thrawn.

    It's not the same Thrawn.
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  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 52,992 Community Moderator
    edited January 2020
    artan42 wrote: »
    It's not the same Thrawn.

    Its still Thrawn. He still was incredably smart. He still studied art to learn about his opponents... the main difference is when he is introduced. A lot earlier than he was originally.

    Looking at Legends... earliest we technically see him I believe is around Empire Strikes Back as seen in the game TIE Fighter. There may have been some novels that brought him in as early as the Clone Wars in some form or another. However he was best known for his portrayal in the post Endor New Republic time period as seen in what is commonly referred to as the Thrawn Trilogy. Just because he is not the exact same as he was in the books doesn't make him any less Thrawn. Fans would have raged if he was shown to be just another mook Imperial Admiral. They didn't. They adapted the character from Legends, maintaining many of the elements that made him a fan favorite. For all intents and purposes... he is Thrawn. Just introduced earlier in the timeline, and he's still out there.
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