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Power Creep, Issues, and a Solution...

Everyone knows that power creep is a constant in MMO's...but this is natural in all things that advance, so like any MMO, STO power creep is inevitable, and most of the time at the sacrifice of prior acquired items or ships. Thus, my solution is to incorporate the old with the new WITHOUT shafting or pissing off the long played userbase and addressing power creep for those who want a challenge.

1.) Please Cryptic DON'T EVER make T7s...this most likely won't happen, but just in case someone is putting this on the whiteboard...immediately remove it as an option. I mean seriously not even in 10 years or more if the game stays around that long...it defeats the point of having T6 in the first place and would make my upcoming suggestion worthless.

2.) Address power creep in ships and console by adding Elite missions to all TFO's and improving the AI to actually play differently than Advanced and Normal. This will inspire people to achieve Elite level ships and if you do like the current Advanced queue of random, the rewards would be that much better. Now, a warning needs to be added to Elite queues when you try to choose the Elite random option. Now to put in perspective the power creep that will be added to enemies...one will be Epic weapons on enemies, Borg Nanite weapons for Borg, and all the other special type of weapons on the other race ships also. Again this is only to address power creep not to discourage playing TFOs, thus Advanced and Normal shall remain unchanged.

3.) The Power Creep begins with improving ship console setup. First, all the consoles on any ship packs or consoles that come with a particular ship needs to have their own slot. This can be done through an Fleet Holdings unlock or by buying all the T5 and T6 version of said ship. This eventually would also include all the consoles on said ship packs and super packs. Second, making such a change would reward those who have purchased every type of ship, fleet version of those said ships would also benefit from the normal extra console slot. This means, all the powers that would normally be part of a particular ship would be available without sacrificing tactical, engineer, or science slots for other unique or stat improving consoles.

4.) Power creep #2...starts by adding specific slot for torpedoes. I don't really understand full Star Trek ships without torpedoes...shuttles, mini-fighters maybe but full ships having no torpedoes seems dumb. Thus, adding a dedicated torpedo slot, or two for larger ships just makes sense. This again would be a clear power creep, however; this would also give people more options and make different builds and gear more appealing WITHOUT making something as dumb as T7. Attach this to a reputation unlock so as to not lean so much on Fleets, as some still hate joining or making fleets.

5.) Make Elite play differently...please. I know this sounds like a lot of work, but it could be very rewarding. Doing this would give a goal beyond just getting more gear and accolades, and without forcing people into PVP which many do not like--we can address that at another time. Make the Borg scary again...have the Voth make you feel inferior as their tech is actually WAY more advanced than the Federation or the Klingons...etc. I think some of the real problems in this game are in the details, this game lacks a significant amount in places like crafting and modding, thus my last suggestion on power creep is pretty obvious.

6.) Power Creep #3...make many of the mods and crafting X4 and moddable for all weapons including lockbox ones. This is a very unique request, crafting/modding needs to be unleashed. Pen, Thrust, Snare, Over, Rapid need to be able to be X2, X3, x4 based on testing for making sense for crafting weapons...again power creep obviously. Also, lockbox weapons need to be able to add mods like X1 Pen, Over, Rapid, etc. Obviously things like Arc could only be modded for torpedoes that currently don't have Arc, sorry no 360 torpedoes, and No additional mods can be added to weapons that have said mods already if crafted. However, being able to make some weapons that are not as useful into viable weapons through mod changes just sounds obvious. Story weapons are the worst for this and need to be moddable in the current system immediately.

Now for a note...I am not saying this should happen tomorrow, or even over the next year. This is a long term suggestion instead of making the more common, and damaging mistake of bring out T7 ships at some point. Cryptic has options, and yes power creep is inevitable like it is in real like...just ask Tesla, but it doesn't have to be one dimensional and old ships in the game don't have to become more obsolete than they already are...just saying.
Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges...
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Comments

  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,480 Arc User
    Some good suggestions, especially weapon loadouts, which I mentioned on many occasion. However number 6 is just not feasible because everyone is going to go Pen x4. Pen is ALWAYS on compared to the other mods. Weapon mods don't need this improvement, especially as there are a number of consoles that give greater Pen stats that what a crafted Pen on a weapon gives.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • dark4blooddark4blood Member Posts: 960 Arc User
    I can understand people always going for Penx4, but remember crafting mods/procs are random thus to get Pen X4 would be like a .0000005 % chance. This would make having that weapon type ridiculously rare. Just in case Pen X4 would be OP, make it stop at Pen X2 but still give it the odds of .000005 to happen. The X2, X3, X4 would only be for crafted items....the random added mods/procs would apply to story items, reputation items, and lockbox items. Again make mods within reason, and make X2 Pen the rariest and maybe X3/X4 Over the second rarest.
    Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges...
  • somtaawkharsomtaawkhar Member Posts: 6,627 Arc User
    dark4blood wrote: »
    2.) Address power creep in ships and console by adding Elite missions to all TFO's and improving the AI to actually play differently than Advanced and Normal. This will inspire people to achieve Elite level ships and if you do like the current Advanced queue of random, the rewards would be that much better.
    This isn't how people work. People don't do, or strive for, elite level content as is not because enemies don't have better AI, and not because the rewards aren't massively jacked up compared to normal or advance, but simply because most people play games to have fun, and don't find huge difficulty fun. This is why most games don't do the "improve the AI" thing with their difficulty settings, and instead just jack up enemy HP and damage values. They know most people wouldn't take advantage of the extra work anyways, so why bother.

    Also, the fact that the game rewards so well on normal and advance as is(not to mention all the other ways to get rewards like Endeavors or RTFOs) means that even if you further increased elite level rewards, most people wouldn't care because elite isn't necessary to do in order to get rewards in a reasonable time span. The only way to make an increase to elite level rewards mean anything would be to massively nerf normal and advance level rewards, and that would just TRIBBLE off a bunch of people and cause(justified) complaints about Cryptic making the game pay-2-win, as people now feel like they have to spend real money on the better ships and gear just to play the game at a reasonable rate.
  • nixie50nixie50 Member Posts: 502 Arc User
    edited November 17
    None of you suggestions will work long term. If I have a T-4 Nebula which i love and fly all the time, where is the impetus to buy the T5 Sovvy which I like if they are the same? I don't, so I don't put money into the game so the game dies.
    It's an oversimplification, but it's a basic fact of all games. No one buys X,Y,or Z unless it makes thier toon more powerful.
    After Beta if you did 10K DPS you were some sort of God. Now if you do 20KDPS you get ridiculed as a nOOb/Loser/reason pug tfos suck/fill in your own derision. Why? Because shiny new toys became available that 90% of the users paid for/will pay for.
    80d.gif
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,086 Arc User
    Cryptic has said many times that they have no plans for T7. And honestly if you think about it, T6 still has LOTS of room for lateral growth because you can make new spec trees, and thus a need for new Specialist ships. With T7 they would have to come up with some NEW gimmick on top of T6 ship leveling and traits.

    As for the console idea... no. The idea with the consoles is either use them or don't. Not only that, there are whole console sets too, ranging from at least 3 to upwards of 6 consoles (Vestas and Andorian Escorts come to mind). If you open the door to having a ship console slot reserved for these particular consoles, you'll get calls for having the ability to slot the entire related set as well with their own dedicated console slots. Bad idea because then not only do you get the full console sets, you get the ability to min/max your consoles as if you didn't have to sacrifice any console slots in the first place. By NOT having dedicated slots, you the player have to decide what fits your build better. You have to decide what to slot in.

    For torpedos... its fine as is. Many players still slot in torpedos rather than going all energy because they want to. Not only that, a dedicated torpedo slot would remove the ability to create a Torp boat. And yes they are still a thing. Just not as common these days. But still fun to play around with.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • wideningxgyrewideningxgyre Member Posts: 581 Arc User
    It seems to me that the majority of OP's suggestions would contribute to and exacerbate the power creep problem, rather than ameliorate it.

    Adding weapons slots for torpedoes, console slots for more consoles, and the like would simply accelerate power creep, not to mention creating new "elite" missions where enemies are powered up would drive people further toward min/max builds.

    To address power creep, I would suggest that the focus be on rebalancing, not nerfing, key elements of the game.

    1. Damage vs. survivability. Ships have a finite amount of power. However, the tradeoff between damage and survivability should be much more pronounced. In-game, glass cannons aren't very "glassy" or fragile. Tanks aren't truly tanky.

    2. Shields. Shield and the need to power them should be much more important - a corollary to item #1 about rebalancing damage and survivability. Shields should actually protect you and should require a tradeoff in other areas that is much more pronounced.

    3. Weapon/energy types. Greater build diversity could be achieved by greater variation in weapon and energy types. It's good that quad cannons don't come in all energy types - it forces choices and tradeoffs. We need more of that - not every energy type and every weapon set should have every option under the sun. Also, rather than increasing damage, weapons should, you guessed it, trade off. If the energy types increases crit, base damage should be much lower. If it drains shields, then damage should be lower. If it has a high base damage, shield pen or bleed through should be reduced.

    4. Scale back on "universal" everything. While it's nice to be able to slot a console in whichever slot is available, the choice of consoles should reflect a meaningful choice in where a player wants to prioritize. It's good that some of the sets use TAC-only consoles, so that if you want the bonus, you have to sacrifice some damage, as well as likely Crt D or H.

    Power creep comes from not having to make tradeoffs in a build.
  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    dark4blood wrote: »
    Obviously things like Arc could only be modded for torpedoes that currently don't have Arc, sorry no 360 torpedoes


    I am going to have to disagree with you here. There are Torpedo Turrets in Canon. We see them in use on Deep Space 9.


  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,086 Arc User
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,480 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.

    It sure did and the launchers were massive due to all the machinery et al. I just can't get behind the request of some people for everything to be 360 degrees, especially as it's nigh on impossible to do this on a ship with all it's bumps, humps and nacelles in the way, as you need a completely clear field of view for just 1 360 weapon; having another hardpoint on the same plane would obscure the other.

    I've said this numerous times before, if STO honoured true weapon arcs and loadouts, slower shield regen, live damage and repairs, and power-management then gameplay would be far truer and more varied, but unfortunately we're playing a game where things are made too easy for even less effort because of the 'theme-park' method the Dev's went for. It's not a bad thing, but it's not ground-breaking either, but it's still way, way better a game than the P2W ST:Alien Domain and Star Trek Fleet Command.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 7,450 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.

    It sure did and the launchers were massive due to all the machinery et al. I just can't get behind the request of some people for everything to be 360 degrees, especially as it's nigh on impossible to do this on a ship with all it's bumps, humps and nacelles in the way, as you need a completely clear field of view for just 1 360 weapon; having another hardpoint on the same plane would obscure the other.

    I've said this numerous times before, if STO honoured true weapon arcs and loadouts, slower shield regen, live damage and repairs, and power-management then gameplay would be far truer and more varied, but unfortunately we're playing a game where things are made too easy for even less effort because of the 'theme-park' method the Dev's went for. It's not a bad thing, but it's not ground-breaking either, but it's still way, way better a game than the P2W ST:Alien Domain and Star Trek Fleet Command.

    That level of complexity might make more sense for a turn-based tactical game. Otherwise it would overwhelm and drive away people who just want to pew pew.
  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,086 Arc User
    Sounds a bit more like the older Starfleet Command games too.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
    I can't take it anymore! Could everyone just chill out for two seconds before something CRAZY happens again?!
    The nut who actually ground out a Delta Pack, Temporal Pack, and Gamma Pack
    The resident forum voice of reason (I HAZ FORUM REP! YAY!)
  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,903 Community Moderator
    While I don't work on games at the studio level like STO, I have a fair amount of experience with modding older games like Star Trek Armada II. Several of my levels and maps were also EA recommended for months at a time during my Timsplitters Future Perfect days. Game balance is a delicate thing and too much or too little in certain areas can make something too weak or too strong. There's some interesting suggestions in here certainly, but I don't think some of them have been thought through as much as they need to be. I'm going to start with the suggestions made by the OP.

    1: They've already said they have no plans for T7. Some years down the road we might see them, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. If T7 were to ever come into play, it would be at least 5 years down the road minimum imo. The other reason is T7 would need to bring something to the table to make people want to upgrade their ships, otherwise it would come off purely as a cash grab which would cause an uproar that would make the Yellowstone Park Super Volcano jealous. Folks forget just how much T6 actually brought to the table. Before T6 and Delta Rising we didn't have specialist seating, starship mastery, starship traits, t5u or t6. T7 would need to at least match those features in terms of value or even exceed them to get people to upgrade. Otherwise if it's purely just another 1-2 weapon slots, console slot etc, then it will feel like a cash grab to people. Personally I think Cryptic overplayed their hand and blew all of their cards too soon on T6. I don't see what they could bring to the table to make T7 feel like a legitimate upgrade and not a cash grab via carbon copy and basic skin changes.

    2: I agree with improving things for the AI for those that want the challenge. Those that just want to shoot fish in a barrel could do their thing as normal. I would also institute a dungeon journal that gives folks a basic overview of the queues, and different special drops to the queues that folks could pick up such as vanity options. I would also institute a proving grounds similar to the one in WoW that folks could actually better test builds and stuff. Give people the information, give them a place to test and measure themselves etc. Give people basic resources they can use to test and do better.

    3 4 & 6: I've said for awhile a single dedicated torpedo slot would be great to see. I don't see 1 slot as being severely game breaking and I do agree it feels more Trek-ish for ships to have a torp from the immersion wise arguments. Just my thought on that. The big problem I see in this instance is you don't want too many items that are bound only to certain ships. That sort of thing is extremely un-fun and creates too many niche builds that are hard to balance around and such. I also find it extremely hard to believe that if console A on a ship could correct a flaw with console B or make the second ship do better, that Starfleet wouldn't move over a copy of console A to fix the issue. Personally I just don't think that makes good gameplay. Having too many piddly restrictions on what can be used where sucks the fun out of things.

    Overall there needs to be more challenges to accomodate that power creep and such.


    "Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations

    Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,480 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.

    It sure did and the launchers were massive due to all the machinery et al. I just can't get behind the request of some people for everything to be 360 degrees, especially as it's nigh on impossible to do this on a ship with all it's bumps, humps and nacelles in the way, as you need a completely clear field of view for just 1 360 weapon; having another hardpoint on the same plane would obscure the other.

    I've said this numerous times before, if STO honoured true weapon arcs and loadouts, slower shield regen, live damage and repairs, and power-management then gameplay would be far truer and more varied, but unfortunately we're playing a game where things are made too easy for even less effort because of the 'theme-park' method the Dev's went for. It's not a bad thing, but it's not ground-breaking either, but it's still way, way better a game than the P2W ST:Alien Domain and Star Trek Fleet Command.

    That level of complexity might make more sense for a turn-based tactical game. Otherwise it would overwhelm and drive away people who just want to pew pew.

    Worked fine in SFC 1, 2, and 3, which although a far simpler game than STO, the space combat was truer despite only being on a single 2D plain, and that wasn't turn-based either.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • borg0vermindborg0vermind Member Posts: 406 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.

    It sure did and the launchers were massive due to all the machinery et al. I just can't get behind the request of some people for everything to be 360 degrees, especially as it's nigh on impossible to do this on a ship with all it's bumps, humps and nacelles in the way, as you need a completely clear field of view for just 1 360 weapon; having another hardpoint on the same plane would obscure the other.

    I've said this numerous times before, if STO honoured true weapon arcs and loadouts, slower shield regen, live damage and repairs, and power-management then gameplay would be far truer and more varied, but unfortunately we're playing a game where things are made too easy for even less effort because of the 'theme-park' method the Dev's went for. It's not a bad thing, but it's not ground-breaking either, but it's still way, way better a game than the P2W ST:Alien Domain and Star Trek Fleet Command.

    That level of complexity might make more sense for a turn-based tactical game. Otherwise it would overwhelm and drive away people who just want to pew pew.

    Worked fine in SFC 1, 2, and 3, which although a far simpler game than STO, the space combat was truer despite only being on a single 2D plain, and that wasn't turn-based either.

    I'd choose SFC ship2ship combat over STO ship2ship combat any day.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,480 Arc User
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.

    The thing you are missing here is that Torpedoes are classed typically as heavy weapons, and the fact you can use the same slot for energy or torps or mines is questionable. If STO used the SFC loadouts, which were very true and logical, then play would be better suited and more canonical for ST ships. It would also allow for a greater variety of game-play and ship choice, as some ships were typically Torp boats (Nebula for example). Literally every ship shown on screen had torpedo capability, so having a ship with just beam weapons is quite short-sighted if the enemy has fantastic shields and armour. Just look at the Sovereign and the Miranda. The Sovereign canonically would easily overwhelm the Miranda, but in-game they literally have the same loadout, despite the Sovereign having more than double (in canon) the hardpoints the Miranda actually should have. The Intrepid has 10 or so Phaser Arrays and 4 Torpedo launchers in canon, but offensively in-game is weaker than the Miranda, having only 6 hardpoints. The SFC series (and a number of other ST titles) never had this issue as it 'respected' canon loadout options (and you were lucky to get 1 Omni weapon). STO's loadout, and in fact, the entire Ship based combat is purely theme-park oriented and lends to alot of issues in 'engineering sense' as well (Why does a T6 Connie have almost better HP and the same amount of hardpoints than a Universe Class for instance? Why can the Universe Class be literally obliterated by an T6 NX that is about 20 smaller?)(And yes I know it's 'just a game'). There's too much emphasis in making the game 'easy for all' at the moment.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • reyan01reyan01 Member Posts: 12,890 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.

    The thing you are missing here is that Torpedoes are classed typically as heavy weapons, and the fact you can use the same slot for energy or torps or mines is questionable. If STO used the SFC loadouts, which were very true and logical, then play would be better suited and more canonical for ST ships. It would also allow for a greater variety of game-play and ship choice, as some ships were typically Torp boats (Nebula for example). Literally every ship shown on screen had torpedo capability, so having a ship with just beam weapons is quite short-sighted if the enemy has fantastic shields and armour. Just look at the Sovereign and the Miranda. The Sovereign canonically would easily overwhelm the Miranda, but in-game they literally have the same loadout, despite the Sovereign having more than double (in canon) the hardpoints the Miranda actually should have. The Intrepid has 10 or so Phaser Arrays and 4 Torpedo launchers in canon, but offensively in-game is weaker than the Miranda, having only 6 hardpoints. The SFC series (and a number of other ST titles) never had this issue as it 'respected' canon loadout options (and you were lucky to get 1 Omni weapon). STO's loadout, and in fact, the entire Ship based combat is purely theme-park oriented and lends to alot of issues in 'engineering sense' as well (Why does a T6 Connie have almost better HP and the same amount of hardpoints than a Universe Class for instance? Why can the Universe Class be literally obliterated by an T6 NX that is about 20 smaller?)(And yes I know it's 'just a game'). There's too much emphasis in making the game 'easy for all' at the moment.

    Have to admit, I have VERY few ships that don't have at least one torpedo launcher equipped.

    Granted, it's a personal thing - but I hate flying a ship with clearly visible torpedo launchers but no torpedoes equipped. Although to offset that somewhat, the torpedo I equip tends to be one of the energy based ones, like the Agony Phaser torpedo for example. I do have the Dark Matter one equipped on at least one ship too, as the two-piece bonus with the tactical console (and the console itself actually) is pretty nice.
    3U3C0SJ.jpg

  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.

    The thing you are missing here is that Torpedoes are classed typically as heavy weapons, and the fact you can use the same slot for energy or torps or mines is questionable. If STO used the SFC loadouts, which were very true and logical, then play would be better suited and more canonical for ST ships. It would also allow for a greater variety of game-play and ship choice, as some ships were typically Torp boats (Nebula for example). Literally every ship shown on screen had torpedo capability, so having a ship with just beam weapons is quite short-sighted if the enemy has fantastic shields and armour. Just look at the Sovereign and the Miranda. The Sovereign canonically would easily overwhelm the Miranda, but in-game they literally have the same loadout, despite the Sovereign having more than double (in canon) the hardpoints the Miranda actually should have. The Intrepid has 10 or so Phaser Arrays and 4 Torpedo launchers in canon, but offensively in-game is weaker than the Miranda, having only 6 hardpoints. The SFC series (and a number of other ST titles) never had this issue as it 'respected' canon loadout options (and you were lucky to get 1 Omni weapon). STO's loadout, and in fact, the entire Ship based combat is purely theme-park oriented and lends to alot of issues in 'engineering sense' as well (Why does a T6 Connie have almost better HP and the same amount of hardpoints than a Universe Class for instance? Why can the Universe Class be literally obliterated by an T6 NX that is about 20 smaller?)(And yes I know it's 'just a game'). There's too much emphasis in making the game 'easy for all' at the moment.

    This has nothing to do with power creep, and wants instead, a fundamental redesign of the game. Yes STO is silly with ship designs and how powerful they all are. The thing is, they are largely identically powerful.

    What you suggest, to do more canonical loadouts, creates a myriad of new problems and almost certainly a ridiculous level of power creep. How do you have a T6 Connie and T6 universe class in the same tier without giving them near identical weapon loadout options? I don't see how you can. If you give them canon weapon loadouts, how can they be remotely balanced?
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,480 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.

    The thing you are missing here is that Torpedoes are classed typically as heavy weapons, and the fact you can use the same slot for energy or torps or mines is questionable. If STO used the SFC loadouts, which were very true and logical, then play would be better suited and more canonical for ST ships. It would also allow for a greater variety of game-play and ship choice, as some ships were typically Torp boats (Nebula for example). Literally every ship shown on screen had torpedo capability, so having a ship with just beam weapons is quite short-sighted if the enemy has fantastic shields and armour. Just look at the Sovereign and the Miranda. The Sovereign canonically would easily overwhelm the Miranda, but in-game they literally have the same loadout, despite the Sovereign having more than double (in canon) the hardpoints the Miranda actually should have. The Intrepid has 10 or so Phaser Arrays and 4 Torpedo launchers in canon, but offensively in-game is weaker than the Miranda, having only 6 hardpoints. The SFC series (and a number of other ST titles) never had this issue as it 'respected' canon loadout options (and you were lucky to get 1 Omni weapon). STO's loadout, and in fact, the entire Ship based combat is purely theme-park oriented and lends to alot of issues in 'engineering sense' as well (Why does a T6 Connie have almost better HP and the same amount of hardpoints than a Universe Class for instance? Why can the Universe Class be literally obliterated by an T6 NX that is about 20 smaller?)(And yes I know it's 'just a game'). There's too much emphasis in making the game 'easy for all' at the moment.

    This has nothing to do with power creep, and wants instead, a fundamental redesign of the game. Yes STO is silly with ship designs and how powerful they all are. The thing is, they are largely identically powerful.

    What you suggest, to do more canonical loadouts, creates a myriad of new problems and almost certainly a ridiculous level of power creep. How do you have a T6 Connie and T6 universe class in the same tier without giving them near identical weapon loadout options? I don't see how you can. If you give them canon weapon loadouts, how can they be remotely balanced?

    Indeed, you make a great point, but that's the problem in that a Connie and Universe class shouldn't at all be 'balanced'. The problem introduced by Cryptic is ships whizzing around like they are Vipers from BSG with near infinite power levels, no live damage/wear and tear, infinite torpedoes, and HP levels that just don't make sense. Yes, I agree I'm making a point for better complexity, but ships don't behave like they do on-screen or even within simplistic relative physics limitations, which is something that people would prefer over the 'theme-park' ride we get. That's not to say that a Connie couldn't 'match' a Universe, because it obviously would be faster and more agile, but it's number of hardpoints shouldn't be on a level with a ship many, many times it's size. Just compare to the Scimitar with it's 50+ Disruptors and 25+ Torpedo launchers in ST:Nemesis that couldn't even be beaten by Starfleet's most advanced Sovereign class as a prime example of how 'unrealistically' simple things are in STO.

    It leads into the fact 'there is no peril and very little consequence' in this game, and really needs more 'realism' to enhance variety. Would I still fly my Intrepid or Vesta if they did make things more 'canon', of course I would but as the OP suggests, the least they could do is give the ships seperate Torp/Mine slots and Energy Weapon slots.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 755 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.

    The thing you are missing here is that Torpedoes are classed typically as heavy weapons, and the fact you can use the same slot for energy or torps or mines is questionable. If STO used the SFC loadouts, which were very true and logical, then play would be better suited and more canonical for ST ships. It would also allow for a greater variety of game-play and ship choice, as some ships were typically Torp boats (Nebula for example). Literally every ship shown on screen had torpedo capability, so having a ship with just beam weapons is quite short-sighted if the enemy has fantastic shields and armour. Just look at the Sovereign and the Miranda. The Sovereign canonically would easily overwhelm the Miranda, but in-game they literally have the same loadout, despite the Sovereign having more than double (in canon) the hardpoints the Miranda actually should have. The Intrepid has 10 or so Phaser Arrays and 4 Torpedo launchers in canon, but offensively in-game is weaker than the Miranda, having only 6 hardpoints. The SFC series (and a number of other ST titles) never had this issue as it 'respected' canon loadout options (and you were lucky to get 1 Omni weapon). STO's loadout, and in fact, the entire Ship based combat is purely theme-park oriented and lends to alot of issues in 'engineering sense' as well (Why does a T6 Connie have almost better HP and the same amount of hardpoints than a Universe Class for instance? Why can the Universe Class be literally obliterated by an T6 NX that is about 20 smaller?)(And yes I know it's 'just a game'). There's too much emphasis in making the game 'easy for all' at the moment.

    This has nothing to do with power creep, and wants instead, a fundamental redesign of the game. Yes STO is silly with ship designs and how powerful they all are. The thing is, they are largely identically powerful.

    What you suggest, to do more canonical loadouts, creates a myriad of new problems and almost certainly a ridiculous level of power creep. How do you have a T6 Connie and T6 universe class in the same tier without giving them near identical weapon loadout options? I don't see how you can. If you give them canon weapon loadouts, how can they be remotely balanced?

    Indeed, you make a great point, but that's the problem in that a Connie and Universe class shouldn't at all be 'balanced'. The problem introduced by Cryptic is ships whizzing around like they are Vipers from BSG with near infinite power levels, no live damage/wear and tear, infinite torpedoes, and HP levels that just don't make sense. Yes, I agree I'm making a point for better complexity, but ships don't behave like they do on-screen or even within simplistic relative physics limitations, which is something that people would prefer over the 'theme-park' ride we get. That's not to say that a Connie couldn't 'match' a Universe, because it obviously would be faster and more agile, but it's number of hardpoints shouldn't be on a level with a ship many, many times it's size. Just compare to the Scimitar with it's 50+ Disruptors and 25+ Torpedo launchers in ST:Nemesis that couldn't even be beaten by Starfleet's most advanced Sovereign class as a prime example of how 'unrealistically' simple things are in STO.

    It leads into the fact 'there is no peril and very little consequence' in this game, and really needs more 'realism' to enhance variety. Would I still fly my Intrepid or Vesta if they did make things more 'canon', of course I would but as the OP suggests, the least they could do is give the ships seperate Torp/Mine slots and Energy Weapon slots.

    You're still asking for something well beyond the scope of a balance pass or adding increased difficulties. It isn't realistic for STO, however much it would be nice to not have Connies zipping around alongside Universes. The problem, of course, is that in abstract, the Connie and Uni of STO are on par with each other, having similar capabilities in tech, despite their canon. This is done so people can play the ships they like and sidestep the balance problems from ship designs 500 years apart.

    There is no realistic way a Connie can stand up to a Universe unless it could get ultra close, as in hiding the Millenium Falcon against a Star Destroyer close, but there's no reason to believe it could get that close if the Universe is paying attention.

    The point on suggesting the Connie could run circles around a Universe is actually not remotely likely. Just for example, the fastest battleships in the US Navy during WW2 were also the heaviest, with the best armor schemes, and biggest guns. Why? They were the most advanced design. There is every reason to believe the Universe can do things the Connie can't hope to, with more power, better engines, more advanced targeting systems, etc. Size doesn't matter in Star Trek as inertial dampners make mass irrelevant. It has traditionally been the rule that the bigger ship is better on screen.

    I get it, ships are very samey-same, and they are sticking very close to their formulas to keep them in some sort of balance. While I think it would be great to go outside that, what can they do realistically to give ships more diversity and keep balance? You can't have a ship with 20+ weapons in STO and have any kind of balance to it. Maybe they could go up to 10 total weapons for some ships, but how would that balance out? Where's the tradeoff? Broadsiding with the cruiser power drain reduction and the priors world console and they are not hurt by power drain as much as an escort running 4/3 cannons/turrets without either. That's a problem.

    Torpedo only slots, while maybe there is something there, how does that even affect people like me who have torpedoes on nearly every ship? What is the point of that?
  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.

    The point was that they exist. Some ships, like the Akira, had 360 torpedo coverage.

  • rattler2rattler2 Member Posts: 49,086 Arc User
    jslyn wrote: »

    The point was that they exist. Some ships, like the Akira, had 360 torpedo coverage.

    Which I believe was covered by the Torpedo Point Defense console on one of the later C-Store ships.
    66998372863950ee98cf7da9786e2ea9-db80k0m.png
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  • jslynjslyn Member Posts: 1,629 Arc User
    rattler2 wrote: »
    Which I believe was covered by the Torpedo Point Defense console on one of the later C-Store ships.


    It was and that would be fine as a torpedo turret if anyone could use it but that was one of the ship locked consoles.
  • vetteguy904vetteguy904 Member Posts: 2,731 Arc User
    Power creep is a given, but Cryptic has been irresponsible in doling it out. it would TRIBBLE off a LOT of players, and they should bite the bullet, but the first step would be remove the second hangar from flight deck cruisers or, reduce the weapons hardpoints to 5. second, mkae power balance more meaningful. as someone above mentioned, the Sovvy and the Miranda are the "same" so maybe balance it out by making the sovvy have 10 energy and the miranda 7, so some thought has to be given to energy allotment. maybe do the same with shields. it's laughable that the Defiant's shieldss are remotely as powerful as the Jupiter's. finally make any stacking extremely limited. for example if the Domino console and the quantum phase console both boost phaser by 25%, equipping both will reduce one boost by 2/3rds
    Spock.jpg

  • phoenixc#0738 phoenixc Member Posts: 937 Arc User
    edited November 19
    leemwatson wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    I don't see how more power creep combats power creep. What we have right now is the problem of the wild range of power between the super powered and under powered. This is the situation that has given us the ridiculous torpedo spread nonsense, from Tzenkethi especially, that some people/ships/builds can shrug off, and others wait to respawn having previously been at full health.

    Many of the ideas here would only serve to dramatically increase that spread further. Some I don't even understand like the torpedo slot, just equip a torpedo.

    In principle its fine to ensure that elite stuff is sufficiently challenging, but because of the wide power range in the game, even at elite you'll find those who aren't quite capable, but are far too powerful for advanced, and those who are overpowered for it. And any of these people who drop down from elite to advanced with their wildly OP gear are going to make a miserable experience for the other people who are a good fit for advanced.

    About the only idea I think would work well, and to really dynamically deal with power creep, is to have private queues that have some difficulty sliders where you can change the damage enemies do, how much health they have, etc. Get some friends and play with the sliders to give yourselves a good challenge. Making AI smarter is probably not a realistic solution.

    The thing you are missing here is that Torpedoes are classed typically as heavy weapons, and the fact you can use the same slot for energy or torps or mines is questionable. If STO used the SFC loadouts, which were very true and logical, then play would be better suited and more canonical for ST ships. It would also allow for a greater variety of game-play and ship choice, as some ships were typically Torp boats (Nebula for example). Literally every ship shown on screen had torpedo capability, so having a ship with just beam weapons is quite short-sighted if the enemy has fantastic shields and armour. Just look at the Sovereign and the Miranda. The Sovereign canonically would easily overwhelm the Miranda, but in-game they literally have the same loadout, despite the Sovereign having more than double (in canon) the hardpoints the Miranda actually should have. The Intrepid has 10 or so Phaser Arrays and 4 Torpedo launchers in canon, but offensively in-game is weaker than the Miranda, having only 6 hardpoints. The SFC series (and a number of other ST titles) never had this issue as it 'respected' canon loadout options (and you were lucky to get 1 Omni weapon). STO's loadout, and in fact, the entire Ship based combat is purely theme-park oriented and lends to alot of issues in 'engineering sense' as well (Why does a T6 Connie have almost better HP and the same amount of hardpoints than a Universe Class for instance? Why can the Universe Class be literally obliterated by an T6 NX that is about 20 smaller?)(And yes I know it's 'just a game'). There's too much emphasis in making the game 'easy for all' at the moment.

    This has nothing to do with power creep, and wants instead, a fundamental redesign of the game. Yes STO is silly with ship designs and how powerful they all are. The thing is, they are largely identically powerful.

    What you suggest, to do more canonical loadouts, creates a myriad of new problems and almost certainly a ridiculous level of power creep. How do you have a T6 Connie and T6 universe class in the same tier without giving them near identical weapon loadout options? I don't see how you can. If you give them canon weapon loadouts, how can they be remotely balanced?

    Indeed, you make a great point, but that's the problem in that a Connie and Universe class shouldn't at all be 'balanced'. The problem introduced by Cryptic is ships whizzing around like they are Vipers from BSG with near infinite power levels, no live damage/wear and tear, infinite torpedoes, and HP levels that just don't make sense. Yes, I agree I'm making a point for better complexity, but ships don't behave like they do on-screen or even within simplistic relative physics limitations, which is something that people would prefer over the 'theme-park' ride we get. That's not to say that a Connie couldn't 'match' a Universe, because it obviously would be faster and more agile, but it's number of hardpoints shouldn't be on a level with a ship many, many times it's size. Just compare to the Scimitar with it's 50+ Disruptors and 25+ Torpedo launchers in ST:Nemesis that couldn't even be beaten by Starfleet's most advanced Sovereign class as a prime example of how 'unrealistically' simple things are in STO.

    It leads into the fact 'there is no peril and very little consequence' in this game, and really needs more 'realism' to enhance variety. Would I still fly my Intrepid or Vesta if they did make things more 'canon', of course I would but as the OP suggests, the least they could do is give the ships seperate Torp/Mine slots and Energy Weapon slots.

    There really is no practical way make the ships more realistic to the source material since it not only spans a considerable length of time, it also encompasses multiple timelines where the technology just works differently.

    For example, Vengeance was bristling with weapons and easily pounded the JJPrise practically to scrap metal, but the smaller TOS Enterprise with its fewer weapons mounts than the Kelvin Enterprise could easily destroy it without even getting its ceramic coat scratched by simply fighting the way they did in TOS by keeping warp mobility (the average fight speed was about warp four) and standing off to the 40,000 kilometer average range of TOS combat (or even as far out as 90,000km which was the longest range TOS engagement shown) and the Vengeance would never be able to hit them.

    Discovery ships would fair even worse, it is repeatedly shown that a ship can escape combat simply by going to warp, and ships in warp apparently cannot see out well enough to avoid things like asteroid fields even denser than Saturn's rings much less aim at another ship with weapons from warp. That would not work in any other series, a ship trying to "escape into" warp would simply be chased by the other ships and a running battle would ensue (assuming the other side wished to pursue of course), and they did that as early as the latter part of ENT so it is not something that was developed in the short gap between DSC and TOS.

    A Miranda (and probably even an Oberth) could pick apart the largest DSC dreadnaught eventually without worrying about return fire unless they did something stupid like approach the DSC ship too closely in sublight (DSC ranges seem to only be a few kilometers at best) or they simply ran out of torpedoes and energy and had to break away for resupply. And the range TNG ships can fight at? Maxwell chased down a Cardassian freighter and her escort destroyer in warp and destroyed them using two different weapons systems (presumably torpedoes and phasers since that is what Nebula class ships are armed with) at a range of a little over 250,000km according to Data's monologue in "The Wounded".

    That would not be very fun in a game however, so a certain amount of fudging has to happen in order to be able to visit all of the Treks on a reasonably level field, along with being able to do the Star Wars like dogfighting that STO favors.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,343 Arc User
    It seems to me that the majority of OP's suggestions would contribute to and exacerbate the power creep problem, rather than ameliorate it.

    I agree and will also say that to me personally, every suggestion made in this thread to "control powercreep" will not work either - nor should it. Power creep is not a bad thing so long as there is content designed for it.
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  • foxman00foxman00 Member Posts: 695 Arc User
    valoreah wrote: »
    It seems to me that the majority of OP's suggestions would contribute to and exacerbate the power creep problem, rather than ameliorate it.

    I agree and will also say that to me personally, every suggestion made in this thread to "control powercreep" will not work either - nor should it. Power creep is not a bad thing so long as there is content designed for it.

    I think the "content is designed for it" is the problem. The devs seem to be going the opposite way by making content so easy you can sleep through or AFK through it and still get max rewards
    kXx65VK.jpg
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 3,480 Arc User
    foxman00 wrote: »
    valoreah wrote: »
    It seems to me that the majority of OP's suggestions would contribute to and exacerbate the power creep problem, rather than ameliorate it.

    I agree and will also say that to me personally, every suggestion made in this thread to "control powercreep" will not work either - nor should it. Power creep is not a bad thing so long as there is content designed for it.

    I think the "content is designed for it" is the problem. The devs seem to be going the opposite way by making content so easy you can sleep through or AFK through it and still get max rewards

    Indeed. Whilst the content is decent and you have alot of control, it's just a case of a Grav Well + Tac Beam + Structural Analysis + some other AoE attack.......and maybe I'll fire my weapons to take down an HP sponge NPC that can't even escape the Well; you also have a considerable number of people that AFKleech, and worse still, some will openly say 'why should they take part when it has a time-gate or select number of enemies'. Once you have the basics down and reasonable equipment, STO becomes a walk in the park, with combat really only 'challenging' up to level 30, if that. I'd really like more TFO's to have Elite level so we can have Random TFO Elite, but like I've said earlier, I would like more variety, more peril and more consequence in Space Combat, and yes I do realise they won't comprehensively re-do ship combat, just wishful thinking.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • dark4blooddark4blood Member Posts: 960 Arc User
    I think many are confused by my topic...I am addressing power creep not trying to reduce it. There is no way reduce power creep. As I said, give more skill options that already are in the game and then increase difficulty and obviously rewards for elite difficulty. One, give Elite missions a different feel completely. The enemies move differently, the conversations seem to come more from Star Trek cannon. Make each enemy that is ridiculous in the show i.e. the Borg, the Voth, the Undine seems like the monsters they are, and with the new skills and setups--players will have to figure it out if they want or not.
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  • annemarie30annemarie30 Member Posts: 1,694 Arc User
    jslyn wrote: »
    rattler2 wrote: »
    But we never saw them on SHIPS, and I'm pretty sure DS9 had multiple torpedo launchers to cover all arcs.

    The point was that they exist. Some ships, like the Akira, had 360 torpedo coverage.

    it's amusing that everyone assumes it from a 10 second torpedo spread in STFC. but that nonsense aside,
    if you want a dedicated torpedo hardpoint then for the love of all thats's holy you need to add ammunition.
    adding a dedicated torpedo slot and not limiting how many it can fire is simply dumb.
    something as small as the NX should only have a couple dozen. I think the undiscovered country bu the Enterprise's loadout at 70 something.
    giphy.gif
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