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Can we get an "Official" Moderator rather than what we have??

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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,635 Community Moderator
    Just so we're clear, it's OK to have general moderation discussions going forward? As long as no specific details are being discussed? Or will the next person that does it get their thread closed even though the OP of this thread didn't?

    I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, so I guess I'd have to ask for a clarification of this question. I will say that we're not going to allow discussion or debate of specific moderation actions. We have a job to do here, and we do it to the best of our abilities. While we may clarify in private, actions taken with the individual involved, any such dialogue would not be an invitation to debate. Your court of appeals is the Community Manager.

    That's exactly why a lot of people post "off topic" things in general; because, as you just admitted, other boards get far less viewership. And yet, most other off topic posts are typically moved to the "correct" board. So...why do most people get their off topic posts hidden away while the OP of this thread gets to have viewership?


    It seems like, for whatever reason, the OP of this thread is getting very special treatment, which is unfair to other people who get their threads closed or moved for the same type of behavior.

    For the record, I don't agree with the OP's specific issues. However the fact that the rules aren't being enforced on him the same way I have seen them be enforced on others in the past is actually kind of making his case more accurately than he did himself.

    Point taken. It is preferable that topics be posted in the correct subforum. Especially bug reports, folks, or even suspected bugs. I cannot stress this enough, because there is at least one QA dev looking over that subforum each week for your reports. They're not looking anywhere else for them. That said, it's not about "hiding away" threads, but putting them where they should be, because theoretically, they should be easier to find where they belong. In the past, we have allowed some topics to linger in General Discussion for the sake of exposure before moving them to the another subforum, so it is not special treatment for this particular OP per se. If a particular topic is thought to have enough or potential general appeal, we may consider letting it linger here, though, on a case-by-case basis.
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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 7,424 Arc User
    edited November 5
    Well, the thread *was* civil, sigh.

    It is possible to disagree with someone without resorting to unsupported personal attacks, and when you restrain yourself from doing that people will take you more seriously.
  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 10,048 Arc User
    Lingering like the stickied Kemocite Feedback. Release its shackles already, it is ready to sail into the West. :)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • coldnapalmcoldnapalm Member Posts: 7,711 Arc User
    1) The mods for the most part do a decent job of moderating this forum. Doesn't mean I agree with EVERYTHING they do. But at the end of the day, they do a mostly decent job at something that is quite frankly a thankless job.

    2) If you have a SPECIFIC problem with something a mod did, you can contract the CM @ambassadorkael#6946 or e-mail their [email protected] However as they do not discuss internal affairs, don't expect a reply back to what has been done because of your request. They dealt with it as how they deemed appropriate. The CM is a paid, official person of cryptic.

    3) You are a guest on this forum. Don't be a bad guest. I am a terrible guest and they allow me to stay anyways...don't be worse than me.
  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,635 Community Moderator
    To be clear, the complaint here is that the moderation is arbitrary and capricious, with an inconsistent application of vague rules, an inconsistent application that is further demonstrated by more vague words by the moderator here. The mere mention "I just happen to be familiar with certain forum personalities due to their and my forum longevity, and so I read them better than others who may not post as often." is appalling on its very face for someone who is supposed to enforce a set of rules uniformly. A verbal assault is a verbal assault. And if you dare to use the report function on the aforementioned "buddies" (and bear in mind- the moderator actually knows who we're talking about), you will get warned/banned.

    And this due process is completely false. Unannounced permanent shadow bans do not constitute an appropriate disciplinary measure. The link submitted to appeal is broken and leads to making a ticket which is declined by support who say they are not the appropriate people to voice concerns to. There is little accountability in this mechanism, despite claims to the contrary.

    Make no mistake, this explanation with a tinge of self-pity and false self-sacrifice is repugnant and misleading.

    Well, that certainly is an opinion, Mr/Ms "Alt-Account-I-Just-Created-To-Prevent-My-Real-Account-From-Being-Moderated-Or-Circumventing-A-Ban-I-Already-Received."

    Moderation is neither arbitrary nor capricious. The rules are not vague, as they are clearly spelled out in the Terms of Services, Community Rules, and FCT. That some users do not bother to familiarize themselves with those rules is on them. Due process? This isn't a court of law, and it is not you who determines what is/isn't appropriate disciplinary measures. The link is not broken, but yes, it does lead to filing a ticket with Support, because that's the way PWE wants it done. Alternatively, you can direct message the Community Manager. And you're wrong, there is accountability. I've been questioned more than once in response to such reports about moderation actions taken. But if you are coming for me, come with something more than "moderator was mean and unfair to me," because as I said, I document everything, and just because your flaming rant post disappeared from the general public, doesn't mean it's disappeared from ours, and I will point out every post, thread, PM, wall post, instance of violation I find to support my actions.

    And now you are beginning to discuss specific moderation, so I will caution you to quit while you're ahead.
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,635 Community Moderator
    ltminns wrote: »
    Lingering like the stickied Kemocite Feedback. Release its shackles already, it is ready to sail into the West. :)

    I honestly have no idea what you're talking about here. I'm not aware of this thread still being stickied anywhere.
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  • darkbladejkdarkbladejk Member Posts: 1,898 Community Moderator
    My cohort has pretty well summed everything up. Without going into details I can say this much, most of the time when I have had to take action it's not what has been said but how it was said. Folks are free to voice their disagreement with various decisions made and such provided it's done in a respectful and civil manor. Finally the chief thing I wanted to clarify a bit involves bugs. One of the chief reasons we don't allow bug reporting in gen disc is because of how quickly things disappear in gen disc if there's alot of activity. Because of that if a bug were to get reported it could quickly get buried under random stuff that gets posted and thus it would be missed meaning a longer time before it gets fixed, which none of us want.

    By posting in the bug forums it's all in one easy to view space. The devs can check that forum on the regular even if they don't always respond to it. In addition to forum moderation duty I also help to bug bash and report bugs for fixing whenever I come across them, either naturally through my own means, or if I see them in the bug reporting areas. Which feel free to tag me in those bug reports, especially if it's reached "OMG the server is on fire" type of bug.
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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 33,345 Arc User
    it is the third announcement down from the top in this very subforum and has been since july - before that, it was the second down since march; i honestly don't understand how you could possibly NOT be seeing it​​
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  • baddmoonrizinbaddmoonrizin Member Posts: 6,635 Community Moderator
    Because on my end, it's not there.
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  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 8,214 Arc User
    edited November 5
    I agree that Kael does not do a good job answering questions, sorry.. but it's true. I can't remember the last time I saw him respond to anything on this forum. I like him as a person, he's a good dude and I think he has the best of intentions, but he absolutely does not interact with the community outside of live streams.

    BMR does a good job. Anyone that knows me knows I'm not 'sucking up,' BMR and I have even had a few clashes in the past but it's always resolved amicably because he's an open minded and rational person. I have been a forum mod in the past and I know from experience that it's completely impossible to please everyone.. it can't be done. There will always be those that think you're censoring them even if those people are clearly breaking rules. Heck, the fact that he's left this thread open for discussion is proof enough to me. If a thread doesn't break any rules, it shouldn't be closed.. closed threads do nothing but stiffle discussion and clearly BMR has welcomed the exchange, hard to find fault in that.

    I'm not going to comment on any other moderator, I'll just say that BMR does a good job and personally I am happy he's here. Even if we don't always agree, I at least know he's fair and that he will listen to the other side of the argument.

    That's all you can ask for in a moderator.
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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 10,048 Arc User
    Well, lo and behold, Kemocite has sailed into the West. Funny thing that. ;)
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • peterconnorfirstpeterconnorfirst Member Posts: 5,498 Arc User
    edited November 5
    Unlike Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, Twitch or what else I don’t feel like using when looking for an STO related exchange of ideas or general information this place is moderated indeed well. Perhaps a bit strict at times but for most players that feels necessary, including me. :p

    When I read the title I got a bit confused as I would put it exactly the other way around: “Can we get an unofficial community manager?” because unlike about our forum mod(s) I sadly don’t have anything positive to say about Kael so I better choose not to say anything at all. :/
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  • foxrockssocksfoxrockssocks Member Posts: 737 Arc User
    edited November 5
    I'd say the rules are the problem, not the moderators. Some of the autocensoring of words as TRIBBLE is nonsensical and plainly absurd.

    But you're missing a big issue here. Moderators, official or otherwise, are only human. There will be a bias there will be mistakes, there will be misperceptions based on that particular human's point of view. There is no way around that. It happens in law, it happens in governments, it's why the most advanced governments in the world today are set up to prevent centralized power, because it will be abused, even with the best of intentions, and even then there is still abuse of power because those governments are made up of nothing but humans.

    So having an "official" moderator wouldn't change anything.
  • valoreahvaloreah Member Posts: 10,339 Arc User
    edited November 5
    The claims that the mods here show bias or preferential treatment is a false one. I've been here long enough to see that even "forum regulars" get modded and their posts edited. I've had my share of warnings and posts edited over the years and in each instance it was the correct thing to do as I deserved it. If anyone feels they can do better, volunteer to be a mod. Personally, the ones we have now have my respect and they are doing a thankless job for free in my view.
    Post edited by valoreah on
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  • ucgsquawk#5883 ucgsquawk Member Posts: 149 Arc User
    I lurk on these forums daily and for the most part the moderators seem fair. It's been a long time since I was a forum moderator on other game forums but I remember it's nice to always easy to stay impartial.

    I do notice time to time that it may seem that BMR is a bit heavy handed or even snarky (usually just on one day) but as far as I'm aware they are human (that's the rumour anyway, we have to take it on faith that BMR is at least humanoid)...people have off days and they may seem a bit out of sorts or they may make judgement calls others disagree with, it happens.

    Until the day comes when the internet becomes aware and starts self moderating then you work with what you have and be glad that the moderators ARE pretty fair and not someone with secret agendas and grudges.
    Trust me, the moderating here is far better and more balanced than some other forums and could be far worse.
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    edited November 5
    SNIP
    You're of course free to feel like this, though as usual the thinly veiled insults could've been left behind in favour of a little bit of decency, but I'm afraid that's wishful thinking.
    What you're not free to do is to create a secondary account to avoid repercussions on your "real" one.
    If you have something to say, by all means... BDM is pretty clearly ready to listen and to answer to people in this thread.
    So, if you want to be an TRIBBLE just because you got a post removed or a thread closed, then at least have the guts of "showing" your face while doing it.

    That said, I have disagreed with BDM in a number of different occasions in the past. I've never argued his moderations' decisions, as per the forum rules, but I've commented on them with my fleetmates and in the privacy of my house and while, yes, I think that sometimes he should dial the snarky comments down a bit - just as I'm sure he has thought about me and many others - as others have already said: he's only human. Humans are not perfect, impartiality is not always easy to maintain and we can all have bad days. Does it means he's never acting in good faith? That his impartiality is non-existent? Nope. Again, he's only human. And at least he have the balls of coming into these forums and share his opinion publicly, instead of hiding behind false accounts.​​
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    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,482 Arc User
    edited November 5
    What you're not free to do is to create a secondary account to avoid repercussions on your "real" one.​​

    Apparently he is. From the very fact that he has done so, been called out by BMZ, and the alt account still exists. No, he isn't supposed to. But for some reason it's being allowed to happen. Go figure.

    **edit**

    I just checked the forum rules and it is NOT against the rules to create alt accounts UNLESS it is to circumvent a ban/suspension. That means if your account is NOT banned or suspended, there is no rule saying you cannot create an alt account.

    So while it may not be "ethical", there is actually no rule that says you can't post with alt accounts (unless one of them is banned).
    Post edited by thegrandnagus1 on

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  • ltminnsltminns Member Posts: 10,048 Arc User
    Yes, and his proofreading skills related to Announcement Blogs leaves much to be desired.
    'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!
    Judge Dan Haywood
  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    What you're not free to do is to create a secondary account to avoid repercussions on your "real" one.

    Apparently he is. From the very fact that he has done so, been called out by BMZ, and the alt account still exists. No, he isn't supposed to. But for some reason it's being allowed to happen. Go figure.
    By "not free to do" I didn't mean "this behaviour is not allowed by the forum rules" but more like "morally" (or "ethically" or whatever other word you might think of that apply here. I'd have an easier time defining it more clearly if I was writing in my native language, instead of English, but I hope I made my point a little clearer now).
    As you said, the account still exists and it's not really my place to say whether it should be deleted or not.​​
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,482 Arc User
    What you're not free to do is to create a secondary account to avoid repercussions on your "real" one.

    Apparently he is. From the very fact that he has done so, been called out by BMZ, and the alt account still exists. No, he isn't supposed to. But for some reason it's being allowed to happen. Go figure.
    By "not free to do" I didn't mean "this behaviour is not allowed by the forum rules" but more like "morally" (or "ethically" or whatever other word you might think of that apply here. I'd have an easier time defining it more clearly if I was writing in my native language, instead of English, but I hope I made my point a little clearer now).
    As you said, the account still exists and it's not really my place to say whether it should be deleted or not.​​

    I both understand and agree with your point. And you explained it perfectly well; we were simply looking at it from different perspectives (yours being ethical, mine being the forum rules).

    That said, I need to issue a correction to my previous post. I just checked the forum rules and it is NOT against the rules to create alt accounts UNLESS it is to circumvent a ban/suspension. That means if your account is NOT banned or suspended, there is no rule saying you cannot create an alt account.

    So while it may not be "ethical", there is actually no rule that says you can't post with alt accounts (unless one of them is banned).

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    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • davefenestratordavefenestrator Member Posts: 7,424 Arc User
    What you're not free to do is to create a secondary account to avoid repercussions on your "real" one.

    Apparently he is. From the very fact that he has done so, been called out by BMZ, and the alt account still exists. No, he isn't supposed to. But for some reason it's being allowed to happen. Go figure.
    By "not free to do" I didn't mean "this behaviour is not allowed by the forum rules" but more like "morally" (or "ethically" or whatever other word you might think of that apply here. I'd have an easier time defining it more clearly if I was writing in my native language, instead of English, but I hope I made my point a little clearer now).
    As you said, the account still exists and it's not really my place to say whether it should be deleted or not.​​

    I both understand and agree with your point. And you explained it perfectly well; we were simply looking at it from different perspectives (yours being ethical, mine being the forum rules).

    That said, I need to issue a correction to my previous post. I just checked the forum rules and it is NOT against the rules to create alt accounts UNLESS it is to circumvent a ban/suspension. That means if your account is NOT banned or suspended, there is no rule saying you cannot create an alt account.

    So while it may not be "ethical", there is actually no rule that says you can't post with alt accounts (unless one of them is banned).

    Interesting. Many of the other forums I've frequented did have a "no sockpuppets" rule so I figured these forums would too.

    Hopefully we won't see a flood of 1-post accounts telling us how the game needs more PVP ;)
  • wingedhussar#7584 wingedhussar Member Posts: 126 Community Moderator
    What you're not free to do is to create a secondary account to avoid repercussions on your "real" one.

    Apparently he is. From the very fact that he has done so, been called out by BMZ, and the alt account still exists. No, he isn't supposed to. But for some reason it's being allowed to happen. Go figure.
    By "not free to do" I didn't mean "this behaviour is not allowed by the forum rules" but more like "morally" (or "ethically" or whatever other word you might think of that apply here. I'd have an easier time defining it more clearly if I was writing in my native language, instead of English, but I hope I made my point a little clearer now).
    As you said, the account still exists and it's not really my place to say whether it should be deleted or not.​​

    I both understand and agree with your point. And you explained it perfectly well; we were simply looking at it from different perspectives (yours being ethical, mine being the forum rules).

    That said, I need to issue a correction to my previous post. I just checked the forum rules and it is NOT against the rules to create alt accounts UNLESS it is to circumvent a ban/suspension. That means if your account is NOT banned or suspended, there is no rule saying you cannot create an alt account.

    So while it may not be "ethical", there is actually no rule that says you can't post with alt accounts (unless one of them is banned).

    This is correct. Matter of fact, this is my alt account, which I created it because I enjoyed arguing on the forums too much with my main account.
    latest?cb=20171202101458

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  • loucostaloucosta Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    Who said this was an alt account? this is my LTS account as a matter of fact, i will assume you are all assuming based on the "fair" comment placed by one of the "Fair" Mods that i'm too scared to risk anything asking a question? whats that saying about assuming again? ;)
    I put my money were my mouth is and take the risk to ask the question but doubt ye not this is very much a real account, you can find me in game GMT @Loucosta. Feel free to say hello!!
    Its also worth pointing out i never named anyone, but interesting to see you all mention the same "mod".
    I think this discussion is shaping up well with some valid insights from most and of course thank Badmoon for not having the reflex action to squash the conversation before it even started on this occasion.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • thegrandnagus1thegrandnagus1 Member Posts: 3,482 Arc User
    > @loucosta said:
    > Who said this was an alt account?

    Nobody.

    The-Grand-Nagus
    Join Date: Sep 2008

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  • jennycolvinjennycolvin Member Posts: 319 Arc User
    > @loucosta said:
    > Who said this was an alt account?

    Nobody.
    Exactly. I mean, it's not as if I quoted @nordiclounge#3091's pos... oh, wait. I did!
    kv1Ohsx.png
    Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.

    Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
    - quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
    - quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;

    Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
    Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
  • claudiusdkclaudiusdk Member Posts: 468 Arc User
    Do Mods crack down on troublemakers in a well timed manner, close threads that turn waaay off-topic? Yes.
    Are there obvious and gross abuse of powers by the mods? No. (But if you see any, then screenshot it and report it directly to cryptic(Not on the forum, but to Cryptic directly))
    Have I gotten almost all my questions and bug reports answered? Yes

    Guess I am just blind to what happens here, cause I have no problems with the current moderators.
    "Please, Captain, not in front of the Klingons."
    Spock to Kirk, as Kirk is about to hug him.
    Star Trek V: "The Final Frontier"
  • azrael605azrael605 Member Posts: 10,786 Arc User
    edited November 6
    > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > > @loucosta said:
    > > Who said this was an alt account?
    >
    > Nobody.
    >

    Yep, that comment was made towards @nordiclounge#3091 , not @loucosta. The OP's inability to recognize this is interesting though.
    Post edited by wingedhussar#7584 on
  • loucostaloucosta Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    edited November 5
    azrael605 wrote: »
    > @thegrandnagus1 said:
    > > @loucosta said:
    > > Who said this was an alt account?
    >
    > Nobody.
    >

    Yep, that comment was made towards @nordiclounge#3091 , not @loucosta. The OP's inability to recognize this is interesting though.

    sounds like a flame/troll reply to me, the kind you're know for maybe? perhaps you'd care to explain why it's so interesting to you?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • seaofsorrowsseaofsorrows Member Posts: 8,214 Arc User
    loucosta wrote: »
    Its also worth pointing out i never named anyone, but interesting to see you all mention the same "mod".

    There are only 2 mods here and he's the most active by far. Why would we not assume you were talking about BMR?

    You can read whatever meaning you want, but it really was just connecting 2 very obvious dots and in no way indicates anything about the person being discussed.
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