Privacy is privacy and the last thing I'd want is someone looking through my ships and gear without permission. If they asked politely with such a feature, maybe a different story
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Privacy is privacy and the last thing I'd want is someone looking through my ships and gear without permission. If they asked politely with such a feature, maybe a different story
if we fly a tfo together and i want to know what you're doing there i could find out about all your boff skills, your weapons, a lot of your ship traits, some other stuff. its not that difficult to reengineer that stuff, just slightly more work than just have a look via an inspect.
Privacy is privacy and the last thing I'd want is someone looking through my ships and gear without permission. If they asked politely with such a feature, maybe a different story
if we fly a tfo together and i want to know what you're doing there i could find out about all your boff skills, your weapons, a lot of your ship traits, some other stuff. its not that difficult to reengineer that stuff, just slightly more work than just have a look via an inspect.
With permission
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Just because I walk out my front door and into the wide world of society, doesn't mean someone can just walk up to me and look at my clothing tags because they like the jacket I'm wearing. Just because I drive my car to the grocery store and park in a public parking lot, doesn't mean that someone can just come up and pop the hood to see what kind of engine I've got under there. Certainly, some people do not mind being ogled by others, but some other people become very uncomfortable with such attention, even more so when they learn it was being done unawares and without permission.
Except inspecting is not "walking up" to anything and nobody even knows when someone looks them up.
Fact is there already is a public info screen for players and nobody cares because it doesn't affect the subject in any way. And beyond the usual suspects crying on the forums for a while on principle, nobody would care if it were updated to include gear or clothes because it still wouldn't affect the subject in any way.
You do have to be within a certain range of a target to inspect it. So, "walking up" is a thing. Additionally, yes, if you are targeted, you can tell when someone is "checking you out."
Yes, there is the public info screen that one must target the subject in order to see, and as previously stated, the subject can tell when they're targeted. And since there are individuals in this thread stating an objection to having their gear inspected, "nobody would care" is incorrect.
It's irrelevant whether the subject is affected, in so much as their gameplay goes. The issue bought up is about the individual's choice and privacy. There are players who apparently do not want to be subjected to inspection unawares and without permission. I don't understand why anyone feels like they are entitled to know this information or that others have no right to retain some semblance of privacy.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
You do have to be within a certain range of a target to inspect it. So, "walking up" is a thing. Additionally, yes, if you are targeted, you can tell when someone is "checking you out."
Yes, there is the public info screen that one must target the subject in order to see, and as previously stated, the subject can tell when they're targeted. And since there are individuals in this thread stating an objection to having their gear inspected, "nobody would care" is incorrect.
It's irrelevant whether the subject is affected, in so much as their gameplay goes. The issue bought up is about the individual's choice and privacy. There are players who apparently do not want to be subjected to inspection unawares and without permission. I don't understand why anyone feels like they are entitled to know this information or that others have no right to retain some semblance of privacy.
Makes 2 of us on not understanding this... lack of understanding.
Neither do i accept or understand this demanded right to know x information when already in a tfo.
That just makes more afk players. Looking over other players. So all the players sitting around looking over each other can decide just what one sitting there is not worthy to be there.
And i am going to guess the player not caring about it that went on to do the tfo would be the one determined to be the problem. As the optional failed why everyone else playing inspector. Was not helping and said player just could not cut it to do the entire tfo solo with there sub par gear.
I do not care if we get this feature or not in general i don't care once i hit the q to pug i have given up all right to ask or even desire a fellow player have x stats/gear.
Accolade run for level 100 in sompek everyone get together and make a private set. You bet i have the option to know if we have a chance or are wasting our collective time. Same as every one else in a private match.
In the end a opt in/opt out is the way to go. Any one that wants to peak under the hood or help could. Any one that thinks they have the right to preserve some amount of privacy unless they want to share. And want to engage in chat before placed under a unwanted microscope can preserve there peace of mind.
As a final note i do not even see this being a issue as it is not present in game and after years of playing not having this feature some how i put more stock in wanting content. Returned klingon arc missions, updated older patrol, remaking the story line with fire caves and the lead up to mirror leeta, rebuilding the borg and who knows a playable liberated borg set. and many others than some one wanting to probe some one else over gear.
You're really going to try and say that there will not be people outraged by an inspect feature? Really? How completely and utterly ignorant can you be? You're a mod. You're part of the group maintaining the F.C.T. Just look at some of the topics covered there.
Amazing that you're still trying to defend the stupid 'common sense' statement. The fact that he's a 'mod' has nothing to do with anything. He's an unpaid community volunteer.. he's allowed to have an opinion even if it contradicts yours. The fact that your opinion is not universally or 'commonly' agreed upon should be the first hint that it's not 'common' at all.
He has said nothing improper or insulting in any way. The only one being insulting is you, and he's let you get away with it.. so bashing on him for being a forum moderator probably isn't your best play here.
This ranks among the most supremely ignorant statements I've ever read on these forums. Disco balls don't prevent anyone from playing either - and just look at the negative reaction to them.
Again, just petty and insulting. You can't actually defend your points, so insults it is.
As someone that hates disco balls with a burning passion.. he's right. It doesn't effect my ability to play the game.. I see a disco ball, I just roll my eyes and move on. It's in no way a deterrent to playing the game just something that annoys me for 1-2 seconds and I move on. With the proposed Inspect feature, people like you with a fierce objection can just simply opt out and not even be subject to the horrible 1 second of being offended that I have to soldier through on a daily basis.
Lighten up dude.. you don't have to be such a TRIBBLE all the frikkn' time.
Seeing those Disco Balls just makes me sad. I weep for Admiral Quinn because, regardless of the supertrillian effort he puts in, he has lost control over his own domain. He is tired, frustrated, and embarrassed at his failure.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Just put a toggle / opt out feature on it that's easy to find. That would respect people's privacy. The old Gateway had this feature.
I just love the way those opposing the idea keep ignoring the fact that we're all cool with an opt out and keep talking about having an inspect feature 'forced upon' people.
People argue just to argue, they don't even read the other side. It's pretty common on this forum unfortunately. You're just arguing against people that aren't reading a word you say.
I just love the way those opposing the idea keep ignoring the fact that we're all cool with an opt out and keep talking about having an inspect feature 'forced upon' people.
I'm personally not opposed to a toggle, but do you think it could lead to situations where people are forced to toggle 'on', such as joining a fleet ect? (and discriminated against if they don't e.g: refusal of admittance)
Then again, it could be said that a fleet is a privately owned organisation, and they are entitled to know the capabilities of those joining.
I just love the way those opposing the idea keep ignoring the fact that we're all cool with an opt out and keep talking about having an inspect feature 'forced upon' people.
I'm personally not opposed to a toggle, but do you think it could lead to situations where people are forced to toggle 'on', such as joining a fleet ect? (and discriminated against if they don't e.g: refusal of admittance)
True, but that would not be any different from a Fleet that, today, ask for a parse showing at least X-DPS before admitting people.
Granted, I've never heard of such things, but I suppose it might happen... somewhere.
Also, there's a lot of fleets open to only people from a specific country.
Then again, it could be said that a fleet is a privately owned organisation, and they are entitled to know the capabilities of those joining.
True again. And, while I would personally not agree in the slightest, it wouldn't be any different from any guild admitting people that are X-Level+. I never saw it happen in STO, but it's pretty common in many MMOs.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Well, I feel that if a toggle were the way it's implemented, then "opt in" rather than "opt out" is the way it should be, as the default setting should be set to "off," because you have a whole slew of players who have no idea how to/where to turn off/on various game settings as it is.
My thinking, though, actually is that it's a thing that's always off, but can be shared on a case by case basis with individuals or teams, and not a global setting that one toggles off and on.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
You do have to be within a certain range of a target to inspect it. So, "walking up" is a thing. Additionally, yes, if you are targeted, you can tell when someone is "checking you out."
Yes, there is the public info screen that one must target the subject in order to see, and as previously stated, the subject can tell when they're targeted. And since there are individuals in this thread stating an objection to having their gear inspected, "nobody would care" is incorrect.
It's irrelevant whether the subject is affected, in so much as their gameplay goes. The issue bought up is about the individual's choice and privacy. There are players who apparently do not want to be subjected to inspection unawares and without permission. I don't understand why anyone feels like they are entitled to know this information or that others have no right to retain some semblance of privacy.
1. Yes, and "a certain range" means in the same map instance.
2. If it's really possible to tell when a player is targeting me, I'd like to know how. Would be a right useful thing in PvP.
3. Its actually not even necessary to target someone to inspect them, either. The info link is available on any UI element that identifies the player, such as the team list, fleet roster, player search, etc.
So I do stand by my opinion that nobody would notice.
And as I already explained earlier in the thread, calling inspection a privacy violation makes light of real privacy violations that actually harm people. Analogies work both ways, so when someone says seeing people's gear in a videogame is like, for example, peeping on them in the shower, that's ALSO saying that peeping on people in the shower is like seeing their gear in a videogame. Which is obviously very wrong.
The feature itself is quality-of-life at best, and if people want to toss their vote in the "don't like it" bucket just because so be it. But equating trivial game features with serious crimes in real life is not a good thing.
I suspect that this inspect leads to disrespect, so the prospect of this ending well is circumspect. In retrospect we should all introspect our motives.
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
I suspect that this inspect leads to disrespect, so the prospect of this ending well is circumspect. In retrospect we should all introspect our motives.
Irrespective of your points, one could conclude, in respect to the possible disrespect - an introspective person (may) in some respects, decide retrospectively that a circumspect attitude to privacy is suspect at best.
I'm going to stop you right here, dark. While I agree that to play an MMO is implicitly agreeing to play with other people - at least to a certain degree, meaning "with friends" instead of "with everyone" - there is a big difference between checking someone's gear and what that someone might do wrong.
I should know, I was a raiding team leader for a long time, and played in others for even longer.
I made many, many exception for people that were still building up their gear on alts because "let's see what they do FIRST".
Vice versa, I refused to bring people that were absolutely incapable of following mechanics and yet had BiS for all their toons.
Gear does not equal skill, and while yeah, seeing someone with a mix of different weapons and/or different energies does not suggest that they know what they're doing, I still prefer to wait and see.
As for the "knowing your teammates' builds could lead to better planning" is a moot point:
- if you're friends/fleetmate, chances are you already know their build and you could always ask them directly if you're planning on doing something harder than usual;
- if you're pugging... dude, by the time you can get to them to actually SEE the build (because usually, you need to be in proximity to someone to be able to inspect them), it will be too late to change anything but some gear, and that might no be enough.
Also, seeing as we're missing a vote kick mechanic - though that's another story entirely - all of this would be useless, because you'd have no way of using it while pugging. And for private queues... if you think people will be all that ready to meet up somewhere to be inspected... nah.
I will say this one final time. I am NOT, and I repeat am NOT, and once more for the folks in the back am N O T saying gear is the end all be all. I am not saying gear is the only deciding fact in how well someone does. What I have said is that taking a look at someone's build CAN give you a rough estimate of their experience level. This is not always a guarantee, but generally gives you an idea. if someone is running a smattering of gear where nothing is consistent, and none of the powers are boosting anything on the ship, then it's a safe bet this is a newer person or someone who doesn't know what they're doing or going for yet. If someone has at least a basic cohesive build, then it's a safe bet this person is someone who could be a veteran player on an alt, or someone who has moderate experience and has put together a starting build for that character. I have never once said it was a perfect thing or that it's a full-proof thing. I really wish folks would read what I've said slower on this point. There are simply certain things a veteran player will not do that a newer player will. Rainbow builds can indeed function, but if one wants it to be effective, there are certain bits and ways of doing things that the builder will need to take into account. Also as I said, I'm willing to work with folks who want help and want to improve. I have no time for folks who don't want to learn and get better on that front. Gear alone doesn't make a build, but it's definitely a factor that can't be ignored. I'm willing to give anyone a chance if I am raiding. The only thing I won't bend on is if the instance requires ilvl 450 and the guy is at ilvl 425, because he's just not ready yet.
In regards to knowing a fleetmate's build, that in and of itself is a huge assumption that isn't automatically true. Yes I get the whole "ask them" factor, and like I said, that doesn't magically go away if/when an inspect were to become a thing. However once more, this does not negate any of the other reasons as to why the inspect would be a valuable feature. In regards to pugs, some of the queues do require more coordination and aren't simply run and gun to the finish. No it's not a perfect example I gave but it's still a valid one. Some will roll with it, some won't.
Simply because we don't have a kick feature wouldn't make inspect useless. If the goal is to keep folks from queuing for things they're not yet ready for, then yeah it pretty much makes that a toothless lion, but again, that's not the entire point. Aside from that it's still a valuable tool that if done right would be far more reliable than any of the 3rd party apps. Also in regards to forming a private group, that issue of them being in front of you is easily solved by allowing inspect on team-members at any distance.
I have to disagree with you, @felisean.
In SWTOR, unless you also know what rotation (or priority) the person in question is using, the gear alone does nothing to help understand why someone is doing so well. And up until now - unfortunately, 6.0 has changed things so much that we will not know for sure what works best for every class (or rather, every spec) for a while longer - there wasn't much to gain from inspecting someone in that way, (unless maybe to see if they were going with high or low alacrity, but that's just something that not every spec was benefitting from). Theory-crafting could be found (and still can) on the forums, on reddit, on vulkk, on hayete and a lot of other websites. There was no interpretation, no complexity there: you just had to check the numbers and then augment (and/or switch enhancements and/or mods) accordingly.
STO is another thing entirely, as there's not "forced" stats, there's no single bonus set that works for your class and your class only.
I'm not opposed to the feature, in fact I've already stated that it would be useful, but let's not warp the reality of things, please.
All in all, again, I agree with those that propose a way to turn it off if they don't want to be inspected - with the clause that if they do that, they won't be able to inspect others either.
This can be said of any MMO and isn't limited to just SWTOR. Although you nor anyone else that I've seen is saying gear is everything, it's still an important factor. In regards to SWTOR they don't want there to be a set in stone winner take all "best" way of doing things as made apparent by the patch notes and some statements they've made, which I'm glad to see they're getting away from that a bit while still keeping their core mechanics. Gearing and setup are like the tools in a toolbox. How one uses said tools yes, does ultimately determine the effectiveness of those tools. With that said, there is still only so much one can do with old worn out lower quality tools, and if the tools you have aren't suited for the job at hand. If your project is purely phaser based, but all you brought were tetryon tools, then you're going to have a rough time as it's going to be harder than it needs to be without proper tools for your "project". If you don't bring the right tools for the project you're going to have a rough day.
All inspect does is simply allow one to view the kind of tools and quality of tools in the toolbox. If one takes care of their tools and has taken the time to make sure their tools are in great shape and the highest quality, then one can assume they will do the same with their "projects." This isn't always the case, but is a great general rule of thumb. Overall there is no set in stone winner take all "best" build or setup. However on the opposite side of that coin, if one wishes to be effective and be able to knock things down in a timely manor and contribute to the run etc, there are certain setups that are objectively less effective for that goal.
No one is arguing an inspect tool wouldn't be a useful thing for sharing builds easier in game, if done right (which is a big if here, lets be honest) and no one is saying it shouldn't exist at all. There is no reason to keep going on about how useful it could be to people who want to share and who want to inspect.
An assertion was made that it's only use was for trying to exclude people based on some "arbitrary standard" and that it would only serve to abuse people and try to gear shame them. I explained that although yes there will be some that try to abuse it as with anything else ever invented, it has legitimate uses and purpose. Otherwise you're reading too much into that.
Most other MMOs also have more stringent gear requirements and more clear lines of performance capabilities. STO does not. You want to be an elitist and exclude people based on your prejudging of their gear alone. Again, that is not being argued against, despite the problems with a narrow idea of what constitutes a good or even sufficient build. You do you. Don't PUG.
I do PUG, and the chaos makes it interesting. Adapting to a team doing things you don't expect makes it interesting, far more than a boring predetermined thing where its all mapped out beforehand.
The issue remains, inspecting me and others who would turn off inspect is utterly irrelevant and affects you not even a little. What happens if one of us want to team with you? You simply say turn on inspect. If we say no, you say, sorry not teaming with you then. It is that easy.
First on this point, leave the insults out next time as they will get you nowhere fast and there is no need for it. Despite our disagreement I have rather enjoyed the banter with folks and up to this point have considered this a civil discussion among folks that are passionate on both sides of the issue. If folks want to start revving up the flamethrowers I can assure you that battle will be over before it starts. If the debate isn't kept civil that will be the end of this. Now with the obligatory statement out of the way we're moving on.
You are correct that STO is one of the more lenient MMOs out there. In fact it's the most lenient one I know of. With that in mind, you don't know what I want, as you only know what I've told you. On that subject, even though STO is very lenient, I do at least expect if someone is queuing for Advanced and especially Elite content, they're able to pull the basic minimum amount of damage and so on required by the queues themselves and they don't explode by the enemy just sneezing in their general direction. I also think people should at least be required to be conscious at their keyboard. I expect that if someone joins a queue for HSE, Korfez, or similar that by the time they're in elite, they should have slightly more than a basic cohesive build put together and be able to put out a respectable amount of damage. I don't expect folks to pull 5018902807087085708 DPS or whatever the current record is. I do however expect that if the queue requires everyone on the team to be pulling 50k minimum, that they're able to pull that basic 50k. If they can do better than that 50k minimum, that just makes it that much easier on everyone. If someone isn't able to pull that 50k and is only pulling 30k, then they've doomed that run to fail because they're not ready for it yet, and have wasted the time of 4 other people because they're trying to play beyond their means. Down the road they might be ready and I hope they are, but that time isn't now and they don't need to be in that run. It's not fair to the other 4 guys to expect them to carry the other guy who isn't ready yet. If expecting people to actually contribute to the team and be able to carry their own weight while remaining conscious at the keyboard makes me an elitist, then that's a badge I will wear with honor. As to what I would consider sufficient to get your foot in the door for elite, and the harder advanced queues, I would consider a build that's at least all mk xi or mk xii very rare mission reward gear as sufficient. There are so many sets, weapons, and bits of gear you can get in game today for free that there aren't many valid reasons in my book as to why someone doesn't do it. To be perfectly blunt its really insane at how easy it is to get gear in STO vs other MMOs out there. If I spent an hour a day each week for a total of 7 hours playtime, that might get me a couple pieces in the other MMOs, but in STO, i can get at least 1 full build and some change.
It isn't an argument against the inspect tool. It is an argument for an optional checkbox to turn it on or off. You're arguing for the tool itself, I'm arguing for the option. You're not even trying to argue against the option, you're ignoring it completely.
You keep going on these silly what ifs about bad teammates and yet I deal with them frequently because I PUG. Just the other day I did ISA where someone split and tried to solo the other side before we even killed the cube on the first side. Yeah we lost the optional. TRIBBLE happens. We cleaned up the mess and finished. No one has a bullet hole in the back of their chair for the mess. No one lost their job and home for failing the optional. We collectively wondered wtf the other person was thinking and moved on. No big deal. Inspect wouldn't have solved that problem either.
And you say it doesn't affect me, but it absolutely would. I know it does. People like you exist and sometimes you PUG and forget you're PUGging and don't have the authority to start criticizing other people's builds just cause you don't like them. It is extremely sad how few people in this thread think you should start a conversation with someone before looking up their stats and gear.
Do you have any idea how weird it is to have people send me tells out of the blue commenting on my huge accolade score? It freaks me out, no matter how friendly they are trying to be, because they spent some time looking at what they could find out about me before saying a single word to me, and I wasn't even aware they were staring at me. That isn't normal human interaction, no matter how much it has been normalized.
If on the other hand you send me a tell saying something like, "Hi! I was in queue XYZ with you and was intrigued by your build and tactics. I'm really curious about how you put it together, so would you mind sharing your build with me? Also I like the way your ship looks, you did a great job with the customization," then my first thought is that you're trying to hit on me, but my second is probably going to be, "Sure they seem friendly enough, why not get into that unmarked van if they have candy?" And I'd probably meet up and flip the toggle so you can look over the build. Flies, honey, you know? Humans are weird like that.
I'm not ignoring anything, I simply see no reason for the box when you already consent to give away that data anyways by virtue of teaming with someone and doing a TFO. I also once again will ask the question since I've not gotten a straight answer to this question yet. If someone is that concerned about privacy that the mere thought of someone being able to see their build via an inspect bothers them, why are they playing MMOs to start with? Why are they going into areas and bits of content where they're voluntarily giving away the data to reconstruct their build near point for point? What does it matter if they get this data via an inspect or via combat parsing and/or watching your buff bars? If someone has uploaded a parse to the 3rd party DPS leagues I can also go into the league's system and pull that parse record, and I don't even have to group with them to pick apart their build. So if someone is that concerned about privacy, why are they playing a game where they're consenting to giving away all of this data to start with? You've already given this data away, so why try to hide it now? That's what I don't understand.
If this were real life or it was somehow able to give out your personal information such as email, real name, or so on, then I would 100% agree it doesn't need to be a thing. Thing is though we're not talking about real life, we're talking about a video game, pixels. I don't fault folks for wanting an opt out feature nor am I opposed to one. I simply see no reason for it to be needed when you've already given away the data it's supposed to be protecting. That would be like me doing a story in game for my characters and then getting mad at other people for reading it even though it's publicly viewable. If I don't want the general public in the game viewing it, I shouldn't put it in a publicly viewable place. I've already given the information away so I can't get mad at that point if I want to stay consistent in my logic. You can't have it both ways and be consistent in your logic. Again this is a video game, not real life we're talking about. If this was real life, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
In regards to pugging, yes it's going to go south from time to time, it comes with the territory and I'm okay with that or I wouldn't be playing MMOs. Someone mistimes a cooldown, an enemy attack crits against someone hitting for harder, foes spawn on top of a guy and hand him his aft shuttle bay on a silver platter before he can react, or other issues that are out of the control of the player. What is 100% in the control of the player is joining queues they know they clearly are not ready for and is a completely different ballgame. If the queue requires 50k dps and mk xii very rare across the board but they don't have that and are only pulling 30k dps, then they are not ready for that queue and don't need to be in there by the nature of the queue itself. That's not "arbitrary standards" as some folks might claim, but expecting folks to meet the basic requirements of the queue itself. Again it is not fair for that 5th person who is not ready to expect to be able to be carried by the other 4 and get the same rewards as them. However that again is a bit of a side tangent. I don't mind a bit of chaos as it's going to happen from time to time, what I do mind is someone coming into a run who is clearly not prepared for it, or sits afk and thinks they should be entitled to the same reward as the rest of the team when they've done nothing or aren't carrying their weight even if the queue succeeds. Again that is more of a side tangent and if folks want to try to label me an elitist for expecting folks to be conscious at their keyboards, I will wear that badge with honor.
The answer here is simple. Don't PUG. Inspect would help you build the team you want, and I'm fine with that, but if you're PUGging, you don't need to know anyone's build. You rolled the dice and you get what you get. You deal with it as best as you can. Inspect will not change that at all, ever.
It's also sad you think that going with 4 people would be better than 5 if you could kick the 5th for having a build you don't like. That nonsense is exactly why I'm glad there is no vote kick in the game.
Here's the crux of it. When someone joins a queue for advanced, and especially elite, they are telling the game and the people there a few things. First of which is that they have the knowledge of the queue and minimum amount of gear needed to get a basic amount of survival and damage output for the queue itself. Continuing with the hypothetical HSE, Korfez, or similar examples, if the queue itself requires 50k dps and minimum of mk xii very rare across the board, this means by hitting that button they have told the game and the people in the queue itself they have met those basic standards. If they haven't that means they've lied to the game and lied to the team itself and are more than likely dooming that run to failure because they are not yet ready for it. Even if the run succeeds, that person is getting a reward they shouldn't have been getting purely because the other 4 people carried them. Overall it makes it a miserable experience for all 5 people because of the 1 guy. Once you join a queue it ceases to be purely about you and it becomes a team effort. If someone can't cut it they don't need to be in there. In regards to "you rolled the dice and you get what you get". So if someone is intentionally fouling up the run, isn't pulling their weight, or is generally unprepared, the team should have no right to say something? Good to know.
No inspect on its own won't change that, but again the benefits outweight the potential downsides. Either way you go the rest of the team can find out if the other person was ready for the queue or not via the logs or what their build is. So all that's going on is extra steps being added to get there based on data that you already voluntarily gave away. So again, why try to hide it at that point. In regards to a kick feature, I have yet to see a game that had a kick feature that didn't also give you the ability to bring in replacements, but a kick feature is not what's being debated here.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Privacy is privacy and the last thing I'd want is someone looking through my ships and gear without permission. If they asked politely with such a feature, maybe a different story
Again if this was real life I would agree 100%. What someone does in the privacy of their own home or elsewhere is no one's business. However we're not talking about real life but that of a game. You already gave away the data needed to determine your build via the buff bars and combat logs the moment you entered a TFO and consented to it since you can't be forced to enter a TFO. Thus permission to view the combat logs of the team, including yours, is not needed in that instance.
You're really going to try and say that there will not be people outraged by an inspect feature? Really? How completely and utterly ignorant can you be? You're a mod. You're part of the group maintaining the F.C.T. Just look at some of the topics covered there.
I'm only going to say this once more and this goes for everyone, drop the insults. They are not needed. I have not insulted you and have considered this a civil debate where both sides happen to be passionate about their viewpoints. I would hate to see this ruined by folks trying to bust out the flamethrowers. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and thoughts on this matter, myself included. As long as the green text is next to my name I am obligated to enforce the rules here. I am not however obligated to agree with every decision made or every opinion stated here.
Now with the unpleasentry out of the way, read what I said again SLOWLY this time. I never said folks wouldn't complain about. In fact I acknowledged that people would complain when I stated people complain about every single change done. Adding an inspect feature would be no different. Secondly, you are not the sole authority of what is considered "common sense" and what isn't, nor is one "ignorant" for disagreeing with you. That's not how that works. Inspect isn't part of FCT right now and is fair game for discussion provided it's kept civil of course. The FCT also has nothing to do with the discussion as is.
Whether you like it or not, this is no different than disco balls, and yes, we will talk about it because it is exactly on point. Disco balls don't harm anyone. At all. Yet there were so many people so utterly incensed over them the topic had to be added to the F.C.T. Given how sensitive people are about that, what could possibly make you believe that a mandatory inspect feature giving everyone unfettered access to someones build will not cause the same reaction? There are people here who equate looking at their build without consent as a violation of their privacy. They're already objecting to the idea right now.
Disco Ball logic doesn't apply here because it's not the same thing as a proposed inspect feature. A Disco Ball forces people's toons to dance whether they want to or not, thus there is an actual effect on the person's character. Inspect does not make your toon perform a dance, or do anything. All it does is pull up the build data present but otherwise has no positive or negative effects on the toon. That's the last I'm going to say on the Disco Ball subject as like I said, we're not discussing that and re-hashing that again.
Also as I said in a previous post I am not opposed to an opt out feature. I have stated that if someone joins a TFO people have a right to know their teammates can carry their weight. In addition what I am however asking is why an opt out is needed when people have already consented to giving that data away by joining a TFO. If someone is that concerned about privacy, why are they playing MMOs? Why are they going into TFOs and similar content knowing full well they're voluntarily giving away the data to reconstruct their build? As I pointed out prior, that's like me making a story for my toon's service record in game then getting mad at folks for reading that record even though it's publicly viewable. It makes no sense and is contradictory logic.
So because you never see it in limited playtime means it doesn't exist. Right. And how can someone "prove them wrong" when they're excluded because they "don't have the right gear"?
Show me anywhere that I said gear shaming never happens. Don't worry I'll wait. What I did say on that subject was two things. One, it will happen with or without an inspect feature. Two, unless someone is talking smack, or generally trying to be a tool, gear shaming is extremely rare in either game. Prior to picking up STO full time I already had just shy of 9,000 hours in WoW by that point. I have also been with SWTOR since the closed beta and have a founder title to prove it. I also just passed the 120 day mark on my main toon in SWTOR alone or 2,880 hours. In regards to SWTOR that's just the time I can remember off the top of my head as I've never sat down and totaled up the time invested like I had with WoW. I continue to play SWTOR to this day even though I have not been in WoW nearly as much. Between the 2 games that's 11,880 hours over the course of a 12 year period. In all of that time I could count on one hand how many times in just a single month I saw gear shaming taking place.
As to how you prove them wrong, you do a parse with the build, smack them down in a pvp, or survive better than them in a run. Then you post up the parse for them to see. I did that a few times in WoW and SWTOR. Needless to say they no longer talked TRIBBLE after that. As to being excluded, there is no kick feature in public TFOs at the moment so that's a non-issue. Otherwise by your own admission private groups are free to govern themselves as they see fit.
This ranks among the most supremely ignorant statements I've ever read on these forums. Disco balls don't prevent anyone from playing either - and just look at the negative reaction to them.
Again you are not the sole authority on what is considered ignorant and what isn't. Also refer to my point above about dropping the insults. Also to re-summarize briefly, people complain about every change that gets made. There's always someone somewhere that's not happy about it. Also the Disco Balls are a false equivalency in this instance and the difference between them and an inspect has been explained to you.
I challenge you to find in any of my posts on this topic where I said anyone could not have or is not entitled to their own opinion. I also challenge you to quote me directly where I said I speak for everyone and my opinion is the correct and only one there is. You're badgering just to badger here with nothing to add other than you disagree with me. And sorry, if you cannot see how a mandatory, non-optional inspect feature will upset people as common sense, then I don't know what to tell you.
You've been asserting your opinion as "common sense" basically implying that folks who disagree are ignorant, which you have stated in regards to me multiple times, but I've let that slide for the time being.
Also please show me where folks said it should be mandatory. Otherwise I refer you to my points above.
I never once suggested he said anything improper or insulting toward me. And quite frankly, I don't care who is a forum mod. Being a volunteer isn't an auto-exemption from ignorance.
As I said prior you are not the sole authority on what ignorance is, nor does someone disagreeing with you automatically make them ignorant.
Since you're willfully ignoring what I say, I'll repeat it again. I don't care if this gets implemented. I don't care if people can see my build or not. If you like, I can repeat it again with perhaps a larger font so it can sink in.
I also find it interesting that disco balls can annoy you and that's perfectly fine, yet those who have expressed that they want their builds kept private shouldn't be annoyed by having an inspect feature forced upon them.
The data isn't being forcefully taken from you or anyone else. You already consented to giving that data away by entering that TFO with a team. So like I've been asking, why try to hide it at that point? What purpose does it serve and how is it hurting you after you've already given that data away?
As for the last part I didn't quote. Like I said the insults stop here and now.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
I just love the way those opposing the idea keep ignoring the fact that we're all cool with an opt out and keep talking about having an inspect feature 'forced upon' people.
I'm personally not opposed to a toggle, but do you think it could lead to situations where people are forced to toggle 'on', such as joining a fleet ect? (and discriminated against if they don't e.g: refusal of admittance)
Then again, it could be said that a fleet is a privately owned organisation, and they are entitled to know the capabilities of those joining.
It is possible that fleets could discriminate, yes. But they already have this option even without an Inspect tool. Fleets have full control over who they do or don't allow in, right now they would ask you to ping your gear, or they would look you up on the DPS charts. The only thing that would change with an inspect tool is the method used.
Personally, I am of the belief that if a fleet is going to discriminate against you based on your gear, you're better off without them anyway. This is a problem with that particular fleet and it will be done with or without an inspect tool. As far as joining TFO's, if you just join from the list there is no way for people to discriminate because they don't get a choice either way about who is added to the queue. This could only be done in a private team which is usually with people you know. Those people already have the option to ask you to ping gear, but I almost never see that being done.
@warpangel Well, I'm not trying to equate it to real life privacy violations. My examples were given for illustrative purposes only to make it more relatable. Though, I have no doubt that there would be some individuals who would equate it to the same. See: the Disco Ball example for its false assault equivalency.
Personally, I don't see a need for it despite the various reasons provided, but I wouldn't care if it was implemented. I highly doubt it will, though, as nothing like this is on the devs' radar as far as I know. I only entered this debate, because of the expressed concerns of some about protecting their information from prying eyes. But the game has gone on for 10 years now without such a function to inspect others at will, so that default state should be maintained if such a function were to be implemented.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
If they ask politely what my gear and costume is, I'd be more than happy to tell them
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Personally, I don't see a need for it despite the various reasons provided, but I wouldn't care if it was implemented. I highly doubt it will, though, as nothing like this is on the devs' radar as far as I know. I only entered this debate, because of the expressed concerns of some about protecting their information from prying eyes. But the game has gone on for 10 years now without such a function to inspect others at will, so that default state should be maintained if such a function were to be implemented.
I also highly doubt this will ever even be considered, and that's fine.
I'm on the other side with the same basic opinion though. I favor the idea, but I certainly won't be upset if it doesn't happen. This whole conversation is more of a 'what if' because the chances of it happening are slim to none.
While I like the idea for purpose of build sharing, it's hardly a 'must have' and will likely never happen. I'm fine with that.. not that I have a choice.
Well, I'm not trying to equate it to real life privacy violations. My examples were given for illustrative purposes only to make it more relatable. Though, I have no doubt that there would be some individuals who would equate it to the same. See: the Disco Ball example for its false assault equivalency.
That's good, but others were. And yes, the Disco Ball scandal was exactly what I was thinking.
Personally, I don't see a need for it despite the various reasons provided, but I wouldn't care if it was implemented. I highly doubt it will, though, as nothing like this is on the devs' radar as far as I know. I only entered this debate, because of the expressed concerns of some about protecting their information from prying eyes. But the game has gone on for 10 years now without such a function to inspect others at will, so that default state should be maintained if such a function were to be implemented.
The first part I agree with. The game simply isn't hard enough for builds to matter much in the general scheme of things and the only thing I'd see this feature resolving are the occasional questions of "what's that gun," etc. Which would be useful but not very important, just like the current inspect screen identifying the player's ship (when it works).
Though I can't support the argument that things should stay a certain way forever just because that's the way they have been before.
No one is arguing an inspect tool wouldn't be a useful thing for sharing builds easier in game, if done right (which is a big if here, lets be honest) and no one is saying it shouldn't exist at all. There is no reason to keep going on about how useful it could be to people who want to share and who want to inspect.
An assertion was made that it's only use was for trying to exclude people based on some "arbitrary standard" and that it would only serve to abuse people and try to gear shame them. I explained that although yes there will be some that try to abuse it as with anything else ever invented, it has legitimate uses and purpose. Otherwise you're reading too much into that.
Most other MMOs also have more stringent gear requirements and more clear lines of performance capabilities. STO does not. You want to be an elitist and exclude people based on your prejudging of their gear alone. Again, that is not being argued against, despite the problems with a narrow idea of what constitutes a good or even sufficient build. You do you. Don't PUG.
I do PUG, and the chaos makes it interesting. Adapting to a team doing things you don't expect makes it interesting, far more than a boring predetermined thing where its all mapped out beforehand.
The issue remains, inspecting me and others who would turn off inspect is utterly irrelevant and affects you not even a little. What happens if one of us want to team with you? You simply say turn on inspect. If we say no, you say, sorry not teaming with you then. It is that easy.
First on this point, leave the insults out next time as they will get you nowhere fast and there is no need for it. Despite our disagreement I have rather enjoyed the banter with folks and up to this point have considered this a civil discussion among folks that are passionate on both sides of the issue. If folks want to start revving up the flamethrowers I can assure you that battle will be over before it starts. If the debate isn't kept civil that will be the end of this. Now with the obligatory statement out of the way we're moving on.
What insults? There were no insults. I have no idea where you are seeing insults in what I said.
For most of the rest of your post, though, you're just going on and on about things inspect cannot fix at all. If someone jumps into a queue unprepared that isn't going to change with inspect. If you think they aren't pulling their weight, inspect won't tell you that either, a parser will give you a better idea, but still may not answer that question accurately.
So you find out the weak link, what then? Assuming their ability to refuse your inspect, what is different versus your ability to just inspect them with no refusal option? You might get an idea of why they are the weak link because of weak gear or poor build, but then what? You have to make them do something to change this problem, but the only way you can do that is talking to them like a human being.
If they refused inspect from the outset, what do you think the difference is here? You still have to talk to them either way, and assuming you can do it in a way that is tactful, considerate, and not being a jerk, they still may not be interested in changing anything.
As someone else said, opt in is actually the most likely best way to do this. If you can first talk to them like a person with some respect, they may become very amenable to showing you their build so you can help them with it. So you tell them how to opt in and let you look over their build to suggest changes. Alternatively they don't care and aren't interested in it so you don't waste your time pouring over their build looking for problems. The way I see it, there are 3 outcomes, either they listen and let you inspect and learn to make heavy DPS builds, they do or don't listen but don't bother with elite anymore, or finally they don't listen and queue wherever they want. Bottom line, inspect only helps if they are willing.
Now for the question you say is unanswered, about going into a queue with all that information that can be parsed and dissected, the fact is you still don't have enough to know someone's full build. And you have to spend time working it all out. It is a level of effort you have to be a dedicated jerk to still harass someone after all that.
You can't tell what mark most of their equipment is, however. You can't harass the person who happens to be top DPS in the group over their mk6 console that they may have accidentally equipped or are trying to get the dilithium to continue to upgrade it. You don't get to screech at them about how their mk 12 gear should all be mk 15 to do ISA, or how it should be gold, not purple trash gear. You don't get to complain about their green doffs alongside no fleet gear or a Romulan without full SRO officers. You just don't know those things without inspect.
Someone who wants to spend a ton of time and effort with a parser just to harass people over things they think are wrong with the build is definitely already a possibility. However, most people willing to harass aren't interested in putting that effort in to everyone they meet, but if you give them an easy tool that lets them find a target with a glance, you empower them that way. You take away that hoop to jump through that increases the required effort.
People build fences even though someone can just get a ladder or two, or even climb many fences. They don't stop everyone, but they do greatly reduce the number who will make the effort. It keeps out the casual trespassers.
I'm going to stop you right here, dark. While I agree that to play an MMO is implicitly agreeing to play with other people - at least to a certain degree, meaning "with friends" instead of "with everyone" - there is a big difference between checking someone's gear and what that someone might do wrong.
I should know, I was a raiding team leader for a long time, and played in others for even longer.
I made many, many exception for people that were still building up their gear on alts because "let's see what they do FIRST".
Vice versa, I refused to bring people that were absolutely incapable of following mechanics and yet had BiS for all their toons.
Gear does not equal skill, and while yeah, seeing someone with a mix of different weapons and/or different energies does not suggest that they know what they're doing, I still prefer to wait and see.
As for the "knowing your teammates' builds could lead to better planning" is a moot point:
- if you're friends/fleetmate, chances are you already know their build and you could always ask them directly if you're planning on doing something harder than usual;
- if you're pugging... dude, by the time you can get to them to actually SEE the build (because usually, you need to be in proximity to someone to be able to inspect them), it will be too late to change anything but some gear, and that might no be enough.
Also, seeing as we're missing a vote kick mechanic - though that's another story entirely - all of this would be useless, because you'd have no way of using it while pugging. And for private queues... if you think people will be all that ready to meet up somewhere to be inspected... nah.
I will say this one final time. I am NOT, and I repeat am NOT, and once more for the folks in the back am N O T saying gear is the end all be all. I am not saying gear is the only deciding fact in how well someone does. What I have said is that taking a look at someone's build CAN give you a rough estimate of their experience level. This is not always a guarantee, but generally gives you an idea. if someone is running a smattering of gear where nothing is consistent, and none of the powers are boosting anything on the ship, then it's a safe bet this is a newer person or someone who doesn't know what they're doing or going for yet. If someone has at least a basic cohesive build, then it's a safe bet this person is someone who could be a veteran player on an alt, or someone who has moderate experience and has put together a starting build for that character. I have never once said it was a perfect thing or that it's a full-proof thing. I really wish folks would read what I've said slower on this point. There are simply certain things a veteran player will not do that a newer player will. Rainbow builds can indeed function, but if one wants it to be effective, there are certain bits and ways of doing things that the builder will need to take into account. Also as I said, I'm willing to work with folks who want help and want to improve. I have no time for folks who don't want to learn and get better on that front. Gear alone doesn't make a build, but it's definitely a factor that can't be ignored. I'm willing to give anyone a chance if I am raiding. The only thing I won't bend on is if the instance requires ilvl 450 and the guy is at ilvl 425, because he's just not ready yet.
My post was in direct relation with this part from your own post - which I quoted, though maybe I should've cropped it out better to make it understandable:
I understand it perfectly, I just don't buy the argument. What someone does while playing solo or in a single player game is on them. When it shifts to a multiplayer setting and something someone is doing that can negatively impact the team, the others have a right to say "hold the phone what are you doing."
In this regard, I value mechanic way more than I value gear.
I'm not saying that you don't agree - it's quite obvious that you don't think gear is the end all be all - but an inspect feature would not make it any better for me. Why? Because it most likely wouldn't show what skills (or powers) a person is using. That wouldn't be an inspect feature, that would be a "make your entire character known to anyone that wants to look" and that is NOT what's being discussed here.
So while, again!, seeing someone with a mix of different weapons and/or different energies does not suggest that they know what they're doing, it's not enough for me to say for certain.
In regards to knowing a fleetmate's build, that in and of itself is a huge assumption that isn't automatically true. Yes I get the whole "ask them" factor, and like I said, that doesn't magically go away if/when an inspect were to become a thing. However once more, this does not negate any of the other reasons as to why the inspect would be a valuable feature. In regards to pugs, some of the queues do require more coordination and aren't simply run and gun to the finish. No it's not a perfect example I gave but it's still a valid one. Some will roll with it, some won't.
That's why I said "chances are". I did not say that you would necessarily know. There's a huge difference.
And I'm sorry, but require coordination have nothing - at all - to do with gear. It may be related to skills (say, the need to use a gravity well here or a repulsor there), but not with gear. And again, we're not discussing a "let me see ALL" feature, but a simple "gear inspect" one.
Simply because we don't have a kick feature wouldn't make inspect useless. If the goal is to keep folks from queuing for things they're not yet ready for, then yeah it pretty much makes that a toothless lion, but again, that's not the entire point. Aside from that it's still a valuable tool that if done right would be far more reliable than any of the 3rd party apps. Also in regards to forming a private group, that issue of them being in front of you is easily solved by allowing inspect on team-members at any distance.
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point here. You can inspect someone to your heart content... and then? What good it's that going to do? Ignoring people in this game does NOT prevent you from getting in a public queue with them, so even if you see someone running around with a build that's extremely nonsensical, what then?
And if they don't ASK you specifically for input, the best thing you can do is keep your opinion to yourself. At most, you can say "hey, I noticed you struggled a bit during the last queue... I can give you a hand, if you want". But that's that.
And a big NO on an inspect feature at a distance. There's absolutely no need for it.
I have to disagree with you, @felisean.
In SWTOR, unless you also know what rotation (or priority) the person in question is using, the gear alone does nothing to help understand why someone is doing so well. And up until now - unfortunately, 6.0 has changed things so much that we will not know for sure what works best for every class (or rather, every spec) for a while longer - there wasn't much to gain from inspecting someone in that way, (unless maybe to see if they were going with high or low alacrity, but that's just something that not every spec was benefitting from). Theory-crafting could be found (and still can) on the forums, on reddit, on vulkk, on hayete and a lot of other websites. There was no interpretation, no complexity there: you just had to check the numbers and then augment (and/or switch enhancements and/or mods) accordingly.
STO is another thing entirely, as there's not "forced" stats, there's no single bonus set that works for your class and your class only.
I'm not opposed to the feature, in fact I've already stated that it would be useful, but let's not warp the reality of things, please.
All in all, again, I agree with those that propose a way to turn it off if they don't want to be inspected - with the clause that if they do that, they won't be able to inspect others either.
This can be said of any MMO and isn't limited to just SWTOR. Although you nor anyone else that I've seen is saying gear is everything, it's still an important factor. In regards to SWTOR they don't want there to be a set in stone winner take all "best" way of doing things as made apparent by the patch notes and some statements they've made, which I'm glad to see they're getting away from that a bit while still keeping their core mechanics. Gearing and setup are like the tools in a toolbox. How one uses said tools yes, does ultimately determine the effectiveness of those tools. With that said, there is still only so much one can do with old worn out lower quality tools, and if the tools you have aren't suited for the job at hand. If your project is purely phaser based, but all you brought were tetryon tools, then you're going to have a rough time as it's going to be harder than it needs to be without proper tools for your "project". If you don't bring the right tools for the project you're going to have a rough day.
I don't want to derail the thread, and since mine was just an example game - one I'm very well experienced in - I'm just gonna say this: if they knew what their players did to tweak the gear? Sure. But since they don't - it's obvious, when devs don't even know what tanks would use B-mods for - it's just another way to make the game even grindier. They made a fine mess that they will need to fine-tune because, as always, they don't listen. I hoped they would've learned their lesson after Galactic Command came out, when it took them one year to get to something even remotely decently, but nope. They went and did it all over again... just, way way worse.
I agree that if gear and builds are not what they should be, you have a harder job in front of you, but it's nothing that would get resolved by this feature.
If I want to make my build public - and ask for help - I can always use other tools (even just a damn screenshot). An inspect feature, wile useful, is not necessary at all.
All inspect does is simply allow one to view the kind of tools and quality of tools in the toolbox. If one takes care of their tools and has taken the time to make sure their tools are in great shape and the highest quality, then one can assume they will do the same with their "projects." This isn't always the case, but is a great general rule of thumb. Overall there is no set in stone winner take all "best" build or setup. However on the opposite side of that coin, if one wishes to be effective and be able to knock things down in a timely manor and contribute to the run etc, there are certain setups that are objectively less effective for that goal.
Yes, but it's my job to choose the tools I'm gonna use and to care for them, not yours. And I'm saying this as someone that's not opposed to this feature, at all.
Again, you can't simply go up to someone and tell them you noticed that they're running a TRIBBLE build because, no matter how you word it, ultimately it's not your business, unless they specifically ask for help.
So, make it optional. And as @baddmoonrizin make it so that the default state is "off".
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
For most of the rest of your post, though, you're just going on and on about things inspect cannot fix at all. If someone jumps into a queue unprepared that isn't going to change with inspect. If you think they aren't pulling their weight, inspect won't tell you that either, a parser will give you a better idea, but still may not answer that question accurately.
So you find out the weak link, what then? Assuming their ability to refuse your inspect, what is different versus your ability to just inspect them with no refusal option? You might get an idea of why they are the weak link because of weak gear or poor build, but then what? You have to make them do something to change this problem, but the only way you can do that is talking to them like a human being.
If they refused inspect from the outset, what do you think the difference is here? You still have to talk to them either way, and assuming you can do it in a way that is tactful, considerate, and not being a jerk, they still may not be interested in changing anything.
As someone else said, opt in is actually the most likely best way to do this. If you can first talk to them like a person with some respect, they may become very amenable to showing you their build so you can help them with it. So you tell them how to opt in and let you look over their build to suggest changes. Alternatively they don't care and aren't interested in it so you don't waste your time pouring over their build looking for problems. The way I see it, there are 3 outcomes, either they listen and let you inspect and learn to make heavy DPS builds, they do or don't listen but don't bother with elite anymore, or finally they don't listen and queue wherever they want. Bottom line, inspect only helps if they are willing.
I've never once said inspect will fix everything and have acknowledged multiple times that on its own won't fix all of the issues. What I have stated is it gives a nice frame of reference to eliminate gear and setup as the cause of the issues. Assuming the person actually wants help, it eliminates the need for 3rd party apps and having to spend 30 minutes or more sometimes while someone fills out a build page, and then hoping they filled it out with enough information to actually help them. A simple inspect lets you see everything in one convenient place without having to alt-tab out and all that extra. That is what I have said.
If/when the weak link is found, one can PM them along the lines of the following. "Greetings I'm (insert name here) from the last run. I noticed you were blowing up quite a bit and you seemed to have a harder time killing the enemy ships. Is there anything I can do to help, including spamming some missions to get you better equipment?" In fact I have done this several times and keep Aegis sets on hand, ultra rare and very variety, as well as some basic crafted items like weapons, and even old t5u box ships if necessary to get people started. If the person is someone who is a newer player and they want it, I will typically wire them a basic set of mk xii weapons or higher depending what's on hand, and a full loadout with a ship that upgrades for free to get started with. The level of help I provide depends on what they need. It could be a situation of them needing a full setup, or as simple as "remove that item there, shift Item B up to Slot C, and change Power D to Power E and you're good to go." There is a person in my fleet with a learning disability who was only putting out 10k DPS and was blowing up a fair amount. 10k dps is a fair sum, but he wanted to do more. Over the course of a year we got him hooked up with a Kelvin Constitution as well as some bits of gear, and actually helped him learn why he was doing what he was doing, and now he can crank 60k dps and rarely ever dies. I am not above helping people, nor is any sensible veteran player.
The only times I have actually told someone off is if they're trying to AFK the entire run, or are doing all of 2k DPS and trying to talk TRIBBLE in the run. In instances like that I firmly believe they deserve a little kick in the aft shuttle bay but that's another conversation entirely. I have no problems helping folks when they actually want to learn and get better. The ones that really grind my gears though are the ones that are all "you're just a DPS d bag and pure pay to win" and then complain everything is too hard when they're simply refusing to learn and get better, and complaining that everything needs to be nerfed. Like no, no it doesn't, but again side tangent.
There are also times and places aside from reasons I have given so far when knowing someone's build or what they're doing can actually give you more insight into your own numbers. There are quite a few team buffs and items out there today that can and do effect team performance. If someone is running a fully leveled tac ultimate this can effect your numbers, as can the Fleet Maneuver Gamma console from Dominion ships as just a couple examples. If one doesn't recognize one of the buffs, you can ask the person running the build certainly. If for some reason they're not sure what you're talking about, then an inspect can help solve this issue. If you notice your numbers were higher in a run than normal, but you can't explain why, then knowing the builds of those in the run could help explain it as perhaps one of them had a console. Yes i'm aware there will be some that never want to learn or get better. In that instance I still maintain if they can't pull the necessary weight for the run and have no interest or desire in improving, they have no business in that run as it just makes it miserable for all. And again you do NOT need a full mk xv epic everything build to succeed in game. Virtually any ship out there with just mk xii very rare stuff from missions, a basic cohesive setup, and even basic piloting skills, can hit 30k dps no problem. Alot of folks act like it's some huge big secret and arduous task to get decent respectable numbers, but it's really not. I just do not understand this aversion some people have to being required to be conscious at their keyboards and being asked to contribute more than the 2% to avoid an afk penalty.
Now for the question you say is unanswered, about going into a queue with all that information that can be parsed and dissected, the fact is you still don't have enough to know someone's full build. And you have to spend time working it all out. It is a level of effort you have to be a dedicated jerk to still harass someone after all that.
You can't tell what mark most of their equipment is, however. You can't harass the person who happens to be top DPS in the group over their mk6 console that they may have accidentally equipped or are trying to get the dilithium to continue to upgrade it. You don't get to screech at them about how their mk 12 gear should all be mk 15 to do ISA, or how it should be gold, not purple trash gear. You don't get to complain about their green doffs alongside no fleet gear or a Romulan without full SRO officers. You just don't know those things without inspect.
Someone who wants to spend a ton of time and effort with a parser just to harass people over things they think are wrong with the build is definitely already a possibility. However, most people willing to harass aren't interested in putting that effort in to everyone they meet, but if you give them an easy tool that lets them find a target with a glance, you empower them that way. You take away that hoop to jump through that increases the required effort.
People build fences even though someone can just get a ladder or two, or even climb many fences. They don't stop everyone, but they do greatly reduce the number who will make the effort. It keeps out the casual trespassers.
I don't have enough to know the exact mark and grade of their gear no, but I can still dissect the other 90% of the build. Figuring it out isn't as hard as you think it is. All I have to do is pull up the combat log and read what's there. If I see a bio-molecular incubation thing, then I can surmise they're running one of the bio-molecular weapons from the Counter Command rep. If they're using specialized one off weapons like the Terran Task Force Beam array, it will tell me that's what they're using. If I see 3 different entries for phaser, 2 of them reputation and then one other that just says Phaser Beam array, and no mention of a torpedo, then it's simple math to know what else they had weapon wise. If there are 2 rep weapons, and the 3rd entry just says Phaser Beam array, and that entry is registered at 60k dps, then assuming their ship is a 4/4 layout, all I have to do is divide by 6 and that's how much each of their other weapons was doing. Plus I also know the other 6 weapons are Phasers since no other weapons are mentioned in the log. I can also see what firing modes they used in the run. If they're running all cannons but are using FAW instead of Scatter Volley, then I know there is an issue there. About the only things I can't see is when they activate certain buffs like a DPRM console if they have it, Maneuver Gamma, though I can see via the graphs when they threw their buffs, even if I can't see what all of those buffs are, and of course the mark and grade of their gear. Other than that sort of thing I can see everything else.
In regards to your mk vi console example, unless they're just filling the slot so they have something vs nothing, a veteran player isn't going to slap a mk vi console on a ship when they can get better. Also again who said anything about needing mk xv to do an ISA, because I certainly didn't. The most I have said on that sort of thing is it's stupid easy today to get a full set of mk xii very rare gear from mission rewards. You do not need fleet gear to succeed in game. It can help certainly, but is not required. I also don't use all purple doffs on even my main, even though I have the means to get them, so why would I care what doffs they're using? For that matter you don't need doffs to succeed either, but they definitely help. As to not knowing if they're running all crit consoles with SROs and similar, I won't know the specific buffs, but I can tell via their crit rating if they're boosting it at all based on the rate they're critting. If they're critting at really high amounts, I can tell they're boosting crit or have some boosts present on the build. If their crit rate is average, then I know they're only running average crit chance. Again 90% of a person's build is visible via the parsers, so why hide specifics at that point?
Like I said before, I'm aware there will be people who would abuse an inspect feature and try to use it to shame someone. However they do that now even without one. Folks that are determined to troll and harass others will do so regardless of what features are present in the game or not. If we quit adding features to games just because a few people MIGHT abuse it, then virtually all development on anything new will cease. Some people use modern technology for some pretty vile and evil purposes, but just because those particular people choose to abuse it, is not a valid enough reason to stop developing new and better technologies. The best folks can do is try to implement the technology in a way to minimize the potential of that abuse. In this instance with the inspect, we already have the report and ignore functions if someone wants to try to harass someone and be a tool. If something is going on heaven forbid, and they don't say something or use the available features, they bear some responsibility at that point. Yes the other person shouldn't be a jerk and they bear the chief responsibility. At the same time folks have tools at their disposal if/when a situation arises and aren't as powerless as you're making it sound. Every feature in game has the potential to be abused in one way or another and those determined to troll will always find a way with or without this new feature.
Lastly, as I've said many times now, I don't see what's so unreasonable about expecting folks to be conscious at the keyboard. I don't expect folks to do a 70 bagillion DPS, but I do at least expect that if they're joining a queue that requires 30k minimum from everyone in the run, that they're able to pull that 30k. If they can't, then they're not ready for it and it just becomes a miserable experience for all. This is why I have pushed for tools so folks can have that information and better ways to share builds, such as the inspect function, so they can actually improve. Overall I still maintain the benefits outweigh the possible downsides.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
Comments
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
if we fly a tfo together and i want to know what you're doing there i could find out about all your boff skills, your weapons, a lot of your ship traits, some other stuff. its not that difficult to reengineer that stuff, just slightly more work than just have a look via an inspect.
ingame: @Felisean
With permission
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Fact is there already is a public info screen for players and nobody cares because it doesn't affect the subject in any way. And beyond the usual suspects crying on the forums for a while on principle, nobody would care if it were updated to include gear or clothes because it still wouldn't affect the subject in any way.
You do have to be within a certain range of a target to inspect it. So, "walking up" is a thing. Additionally, yes, if you are targeted, you can tell when someone is "checking you out."
Yes, there is the public info screen that one must target the subject in order to see, and as previously stated, the subject can tell when they're targeted. And since there are individuals in this thread stating an objection to having their gear inspected, "nobody would care" is incorrect.
It's irrelevant whether the subject is affected, in so much as their gameplay goes. The issue bought up is about the individual's choice and privacy. There are players who apparently do not want to be subjected to inspection unawares and without permission. I don't understand why anyone feels like they are entitled to know this information or that others have no right to retain some semblance of privacy.
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Makes 2 of us on not understanding this... lack of understanding.
Neither do i accept or understand this demanded right to know x information when already in a tfo.
That just makes more afk players. Looking over other players. So all the players sitting around looking over each other can decide just what one sitting there is not worthy to be there.
And i am going to guess the player not caring about it that went on to do the tfo would be the one determined to be the problem. As the optional failed why everyone else playing inspector. Was not helping and said player just could not cut it to do the entire tfo solo with there sub par gear.
I do not care if we get this feature or not in general i don't care once i hit the q to pug i have given up all right to ask or even desire a fellow player have x stats/gear.
Accolade run for level 100 in sompek everyone get together and make a private set. You bet i have the option to know if we have a chance or are wasting our collective time. Same as every one else in a private match.
In the end a opt in/opt out is the way to go. Any one that wants to peak under the hood or help could. Any one that thinks they have the right to preserve some amount of privacy unless they want to share. And want to engage in chat before placed under a unwanted microscope can preserve there peace of mind.
As a final note i do not even see this being a issue as it is not present in game and after years of playing not having this feature some how i put more stock in wanting content. Returned klingon arc missions, updated older patrol, remaking the story line with fire caves and the lead up to mirror leeta, rebuilding the borg and who knows a playable liberated borg set. and many others than some one wanting to probe some one else over gear.
Amazing that you're still trying to defend the stupid 'common sense' statement. The fact that he's a 'mod' has nothing to do with anything. He's an unpaid community volunteer.. he's allowed to have an opinion even if it contradicts yours. The fact that your opinion is not universally or 'commonly' agreed upon should be the first hint that it's not 'common' at all.
He has said nothing improper or insulting in any way. The only one being insulting is you, and he's let you get away with it.. so bashing on him for being a forum moderator probably isn't your best play here.
Again, just petty and insulting. You can't actually defend your points, so insults it is.
As someone that hates disco balls with a burning passion.. he's right. It doesn't effect my ability to play the game.. I see a disco ball, I just roll my eyes and move on. It's in no way a deterrent to playing the game just something that annoys me for 1-2 seconds and I move on. With the proposed Inspect feature, people like you with a fierce objection can just simply opt out and not even be subject to the horrible 1 second of being offended that I have to soldier through on a daily basis.
Lighten up dude.. you don't have to be such a TRIBBLE all the frikkn' time.
Seeing those Disco Balls just makes me sad. I weep for Admiral Quinn because, regardless of the supertrillian effort he puts in, he has lost control over his own domain. He is tired, frustrated, and embarrassed at his failure.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
At the same time give some respect to such a tool that was and still could be used for betterment, as the game doesn't yet have an auto-play feature.
I just love the way those opposing the idea keep ignoring the fact that we're all cool with an opt out and keep talking about having an inspect feature 'forced upon' people.
People argue just to argue, they don't even read the other side. It's pretty common on this forum unfortunately. You're just arguing against people that aren't reading a word you say.
I'm personally not opposed to a toggle, but do you think it could lead to situations where people are forced to toggle 'on', such as joining a fleet ect? (and discriminated against if they don't e.g: refusal of admittance)
Then again, it could be said that a fleet is a privately owned organisation, and they are entitled to know the capabilities of those joining.
Granted, I've never heard of such things, but I suppose it might happen... somewhere.
Also, there's a lot of fleets open to only people from a specific country.
True again. And, while I would personally not agree in the slightest, it wouldn't be any different from any guild admitting people that are X-Level+. I never saw it happen in STO, but it's pretty common in many MMOs.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
My thinking, though, actually is that it's a thing that's always off, but can be shared on a case by case basis with individuals or teams, and not a global setting that one toggles off and on.
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2. If it's really possible to tell when a player is targeting me, I'd like to know how. Would be a right useful thing in PvP.
3. Its actually not even necessary to target someone to inspect them, either. The info link is available on any UI element that identifies the player, such as the team list, fleet roster, player search, etc.
So I do stand by my opinion that nobody would notice.
And as I already explained earlier in the thread, calling inspection a privacy violation makes light of real privacy violations that actually harm people. Analogies work both ways, so when someone says seeing people's gear in a videogame is like, for example, peeping on them in the shower, that's ALSO saying that peeping on people in the shower is like seeing their gear in a videogame. Which is obviously very wrong.
The feature itself is quality-of-life at best, and if people want to toss their vote in the "don't like it" bucket just because so be it. But equating trivial game features with serious crimes in real life is not a good thing.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Irrespective of your points, one could conclude, in respect to the possible disrespect - an introspective person (may) in some respects, decide retrospectively that a circumspect attitude to privacy is suspect at best.
I will say this one final time. I am NOT, and I repeat am NOT, and once more for the folks in the back am N O T saying gear is the end all be all. I am not saying gear is the only deciding fact in how well someone does. What I have said is that taking a look at someone's build CAN give you a rough estimate of their experience level. This is not always a guarantee, but generally gives you an idea. if someone is running a smattering of gear where nothing is consistent, and none of the powers are boosting anything on the ship, then it's a safe bet this is a newer person or someone who doesn't know what they're doing or going for yet. If someone has at least a basic cohesive build, then it's a safe bet this person is someone who could be a veteran player on an alt, or someone who has moderate experience and has put together a starting build for that character. I have never once said it was a perfect thing or that it's a full-proof thing. I really wish folks would read what I've said slower on this point. There are simply certain things a veteran player will not do that a newer player will. Rainbow builds can indeed function, but if one wants it to be effective, there are certain bits and ways of doing things that the builder will need to take into account. Also as I said, I'm willing to work with folks who want help and want to improve. I have no time for folks who don't want to learn and get better on that front. Gear alone doesn't make a build, but it's definitely a factor that can't be ignored. I'm willing to give anyone a chance if I am raiding. The only thing I won't bend on is if the instance requires ilvl 450 and the guy is at ilvl 425, because he's just not ready yet.
In regards to knowing a fleetmate's build, that in and of itself is a huge assumption that isn't automatically true. Yes I get the whole "ask them" factor, and like I said, that doesn't magically go away if/when an inspect were to become a thing. However once more, this does not negate any of the other reasons as to why the inspect would be a valuable feature. In regards to pugs, some of the queues do require more coordination and aren't simply run and gun to the finish. No it's not a perfect example I gave but it's still a valid one. Some will roll with it, some won't.
Simply because we don't have a kick feature wouldn't make inspect useless. If the goal is to keep folks from queuing for things they're not yet ready for, then yeah it pretty much makes that a toothless lion, but again, that's not the entire point. Aside from that it's still a valuable tool that if done right would be far more reliable than any of the 3rd party apps. Also in regards to forming a private group, that issue of them being in front of you is easily solved by allowing inspect on team-members at any distance.
This can be said of any MMO and isn't limited to just SWTOR. Although you nor anyone else that I've seen is saying gear is everything, it's still an important factor. In regards to SWTOR they don't want there to be a set in stone winner take all "best" way of doing things as made apparent by the patch notes and some statements they've made, which I'm glad to see they're getting away from that a bit while still keeping their core mechanics. Gearing and setup are like the tools in a toolbox. How one uses said tools yes, does ultimately determine the effectiveness of those tools. With that said, there is still only so much one can do with old worn out lower quality tools, and if the tools you have aren't suited for the job at hand. If your project is purely phaser based, but all you brought were tetryon tools, then you're going to have a rough time as it's going to be harder than it needs to be without proper tools for your "project". If you don't bring the right tools for the project you're going to have a rough day.
All inspect does is simply allow one to view the kind of tools and quality of tools in the toolbox. If one takes care of their tools and has taken the time to make sure their tools are in great shape and the highest quality, then one can assume they will do the same with their "projects." This isn't always the case, but is a great general rule of thumb. Overall there is no set in stone winner take all "best" build or setup. However on the opposite side of that coin, if one wishes to be effective and be able to knock things down in a timely manor and contribute to the run etc, there are certain setups that are objectively less effective for that goal.
An assertion was made that it's only use was for trying to exclude people based on some "arbitrary standard" and that it would only serve to abuse people and try to gear shame them. I explained that although yes there will be some that try to abuse it as with anything else ever invented, it has legitimate uses and purpose. Otherwise you're reading too much into that.
First on this point, leave the insults out next time as they will get you nowhere fast and there is no need for it. Despite our disagreement I have rather enjoyed the banter with folks and up to this point have considered this a civil discussion among folks that are passionate on both sides of the issue. If folks want to start revving up the flamethrowers I can assure you that battle will be over before it starts. If the debate isn't kept civil that will be the end of this. Now with the obligatory statement out of the way we're moving on.
You are correct that STO is one of the more lenient MMOs out there. In fact it's the most lenient one I know of. With that in mind, you don't know what I want, as you only know what I've told you. On that subject, even though STO is very lenient, I do at least expect if someone is queuing for Advanced and especially Elite content, they're able to pull the basic minimum amount of damage and so on required by the queues themselves and they don't explode by the enemy just sneezing in their general direction. I also think people should at least be required to be conscious at their keyboard. I expect that if someone joins a queue for HSE, Korfez, or similar that by the time they're in elite, they should have slightly more than a basic cohesive build put together and be able to put out a respectable amount of damage. I don't expect folks to pull 5018902807087085708 DPS or whatever the current record is. I do however expect that if the queue requires everyone on the team to be pulling 50k minimum, that they're able to pull that basic 50k. If they can do better than that 50k minimum, that just makes it that much easier on everyone. If someone isn't able to pull that 50k and is only pulling 30k, then they've doomed that run to fail because they're not ready for it yet, and have wasted the time of 4 other people because they're trying to play beyond their means. Down the road they might be ready and I hope they are, but that time isn't now and they don't need to be in that run. It's not fair to the other 4 guys to expect them to carry the other guy who isn't ready yet. If expecting people to actually contribute to the team and be able to carry their own weight while remaining conscious at the keyboard makes me an elitist, then that's a badge I will wear with honor. As to what I would consider sufficient to get your foot in the door for elite, and the harder advanced queues, I would consider a build that's at least all mk xi or mk xii very rare mission reward gear as sufficient. There are so many sets, weapons, and bits of gear you can get in game today for free that there aren't many valid reasons in my book as to why someone doesn't do it. To be perfectly blunt its really insane at how easy it is to get gear in STO vs other MMOs out there. If I spent an hour a day each week for a total of 7 hours playtime, that might get me a couple pieces in the other MMOs, but in STO, i can get at least 1 full build and some change.
I'm not ignoring anything, I simply see no reason for the box when you already consent to give away that data anyways by virtue of teaming with someone and doing a TFO. I also once again will ask the question since I've not gotten a straight answer to this question yet. If someone is that concerned about privacy that the mere thought of someone being able to see their build via an inspect bothers them, why are they playing MMOs to start with? Why are they going into areas and bits of content where they're voluntarily giving away the data to reconstruct their build near point for point? What does it matter if they get this data via an inspect or via combat parsing and/or watching your buff bars? If someone has uploaded a parse to the 3rd party DPS leagues I can also go into the league's system and pull that parse record, and I don't even have to group with them to pick apart their build. So if someone is that concerned about privacy, why are they playing a game where they're consenting to giving away all of this data to start with? You've already given this data away, so why try to hide it now? That's what I don't understand.
If this were real life or it was somehow able to give out your personal information such as email, real name, or so on, then I would 100% agree it doesn't need to be a thing. Thing is though we're not talking about real life, we're talking about a video game, pixels. I don't fault folks for wanting an opt out feature nor am I opposed to one. I simply see no reason for it to be needed when you've already given away the data it's supposed to be protecting. That would be like me doing a story in game for my characters and then getting mad at other people for reading it even though it's publicly viewable. If I don't want the general public in the game viewing it, I shouldn't put it in a publicly viewable place. I've already given the information away so I can't get mad at that point if I want to stay consistent in my logic. You can't have it both ways and be consistent in your logic. Again this is a video game, not real life we're talking about. If this was real life, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
In regards to pugging, yes it's going to go south from time to time, it comes with the territory and I'm okay with that or I wouldn't be playing MMOs. Someone mistimes a cooldown, an enemy attack crits against someone hitting for harder, foes spawn on top of a guy and hand him his aft shuttle bay on a silver platter before he can react, or other issues that are out of the control of the player. What is 100% in the control of the player is joining queues they know they clearly are not ready for and is a completely different ballgame. If the queue requires 50k dps and mk xii very rare across the board but they don't have that and are only pulling 30k dps, then they are not ready for that queue and don't need to be in there by the nature of the queue itself. That's not "arbitrary standards" as some folks might claim, but expecting folks to meet the basic requirements of the queue itself. Again it is not fair for that 5th person who is not ready to expect to be able to be carried by the other 4 and get the same rewards as them. However that again is a bit of a side tangent. I don't mind a bit of chaos as it's going to happen from time to time, what I do mind is someone coming into a run who is clearly not prepared for it, or sits afk and thinks they should be entitled to the same reward as the rest of the team when they've done nothing or aren't carrying their weight even if the queue succeeds. Again that is more of a side tangent and if folks want to try to label me an elitist for expecting folks to be conscious at their keyboards, I will wear that badge with honor.
Here's the crux of it. When someone joins a queue for advanced, and especially elite, they are telling the game and the people there a few things. First of which is that they have the knowledge of the queue and minimum amount of gear needed to get a basic amount of survival and damage output for the queue itself. Continuing with the hypothetical HSE, Korfez, or similar examples, if the queue itself requires 50k dps and minimum of mk xii very rare across the board, this means by hitting that button they have told the game and the people in the queue itself they have met those basic standards. If they haven't that means they've lied to the game and lied to the team itself and are more than likely dooming that run to failure because they are not yet ready for it. Even if the run succeeds, that person is getting a reward they shouldn't have been getting purely because the other 4 people carried them. Overall it makes it a miserable experience for all 5 people because of the 1 guy. Once you join a queue it ceases to be purely about you and it becomes a team effort. If someone can't cut it they don't need to be in there. In regards to "you rolled the dice and you get what you get". So if someone is intentionally fouling up the run, isn't pulling their weight, or is generally unprepared, the team should have no right to say something? Good to know.
No inspect on its own won't change that, but again the benefits outweight the potential downsides. Either way you go the rest of the team can find out if the other person was ready for the queue or not via the logs or what their build is. So all that's going on is extra steps being added to get there based on data that you already voluntarily gave away. So again, why try to hide it at that point. In regards to a kick feature, I have yet to see a game that had a kick feature that didn't also give you the ability to bring in replacements, but a kick feature is not what's being debated here.
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Again if this was real life I would agree 100%. What someone does in the privacy of their own home or elsewhere is no one's business. However we're not talking about real life but that of a game. You already gave away the data needed to determine your build via the buff bars and combat logs the moment you entered a TFO and consented to it since you can't be forced to enter a TFO. Thus permission to view the combat logs of the team, including yours, is not needed in that instance.
I'm only going to say this once more and this goes for everyone, drop the insults. They are not needed. I have not insulted you and have considered this a civil debate where both sides happen to be passionate about their viewpoints. I would hate to see this ruined by folks trying to bust out the flamethrowers. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and thoughts on this matter, myself included. As long as the green text is next to my name I am obligated to enforce the rules here. I am not however obligated to agree with every decision made or every opinion stated here.
Now with the unpleasentry out of the way, read what I said again SLOWLY this time. I never said folks wouldn't complain about. In fact I acknowledged that people would complain when I stated people complain about every single change done. Adding an inspect feature would be no different. Secondly, you are not the sole authority of what is considered "common sense" and what isn't, nor is one "ignorant" for disagreeing with you. That's not how that works. Inspect isn't part of FCT right now and is fair game for discussion provided it's kept civil of course. The FCT also has nothing to do with the discussion as is.
Disco Ball logic doesn't apply here because it's not the same thing as a proposed inspect feature. A Disco Ball forces people's toons to dance whether they want to or not, thus there is an actual effect on the person's character. Inspect does not make your toon perform a dance, or do anything. All it does is pull up the build data present but otherwise has no positive or negative effects on the toon. That's the last I'm going to say on the Disco Ball subject as like I said, we're not discussing that and re-hashing that again.
Also as I said in a previous post I am not opposed to an opt out feature. I have stated that if someone joins a TFO people have a right to know their teammates can carry their weight. In addition what I am however asking is why an opt out is needed when people have already consented to giving that data away by joining a TFO. If someone is that concerned about privacy, why are they playing MMOs? Why are they going into TFOs and similar content knowing full well they're voluntarily giving away the data to reconstruct their build? As I pointed out prior, that's like me making a story for my toon's service record in game then getting mad at folks for reading that record even though it's publicly viewable. It makes no sense and is contradictory logic.
Show me anywhere that I said gear shaming never happens. Don't worry I'll wait. What I did say on that subject was two things. One, it will happen with or without an inspect feature. Two, unless someone is talking smack, or generally trying to be a tool, gear shaming is extremely rare in either game. Prior to picking up STO full time I already had just shy of 9,000 hours in WoW by that point. I have also been with SWTOR since the closed beta and have a founder title to prove it. I also just passed the 120 day mark on my main toon in SWTOR alone or 2,880 hours. In regards to SWTOR that's just the time I can remember off the top of my head as I've never sat down and totaled up the time invested like I had with WoW. I continue to play SWTOR to this day even though I have not been in WoW nearly as much. Between the 2 games that's 11,880 hours over the course of a 12 year period. In all of that time I could count on one hand how many times in just a single month I saw gear shaming taking place.
As to how you prove them wrong, you do a parse with the build, smack them down in a pvp, or survive better than them in a run. Then you post up the parse for them to see. I did that a few times in WoW and SWTOR. Needless to say they no longer talked TRIBBLE after that. As to being excluded, there is no kick feature in public TFOs at the moment so that's a non-issue. Otherwise by your own admission private groups are free to govern themselves as they see fit.
Again you are not the sole authority on what is considered ignorant and what isn't. Also refer to my point above about dropping the insults. Also to re-summarize briefly, people complain about every change that gets made. There's always someone somewhere that's not happy about it. Also the Disco Balls are a false equivalency in this instance and the difference between them and an inspect has been explained to you.
You've been asserting your opinion as "common sense" basically implying that folks who disagree are ignorant, which you have stated in regards to me multiple times, but I've let that slide for the time being.
Also please show me where folks said it should be mandatory. Otherwise I refer you to my points above.
As I said prior you are not the sole authority on what ignorance is, nor does someone disagreeing with you automatically make them ignorant.
The data isn't being forcefully taken from you or anyone else. You already consented to giving that data away by entering that TFO with a team. So like I've been asking, why try to hide it at that point? What purpose does it serve and how is it hurting you after you've already given that data away?
As for the last part I didn't quote. Like I said the insults stop here and now.
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It is possible that fleets could discriminate, yes. But they already have this option even without an Inspect tool. Fleets have full control over who they do or don't allow in, right now they would ask you to ping your gear, or they would look you up on the DPS charts. The only thing that would change with an inspect tool is the method used.
Personally, I am of the belief that if a fleet is going to discriminate against you based on your gear, you're better off without them anyway. This is a problem with that particular fleet and it will be done with or without an inspect tool. As far as joining TFO's, if you just join from the list there is no way for people to discriminate because they don't get a choice either way about who is added to the queue. This could only be done in a private team which is usually with people you know. Those people already have the option to ask you to ping gear, but I almost never see that being done.
Personally, I don't see a need for it despite the various reasons provided, but I wouldn't care if it was implemented. I highly doubt it will, though, as nothing like this is on the devs' radar as far as I know. I only entered this debate, because of the expressed concerns of some about protecting their information from prying eyes. But the game has gone on for 10 years now without such a function to inspect others at will, so that default state should be maintained if such a function were to be implemented.
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I also highly doubt this will ever even be considered, and that's fine.
I'm on the other side with the same basic opinion though. I favor the idea, but I certainly won't be upset if it doesn't happen. This whole conversation is more of a 'what if' because the chances of it happening are slim to none.
While I like the idea for purpose of build sharing, it's hardly a 'must have' and will likely never happen. I'm fine with that.. not that I have a choice.
The first part I agree with. The game simply isn't hard enough for builds to matter much in the general scheme of things and the only thing I'd see this feature resolving are the occasional questions of "what's that gun," etc. Which would be useful but not very important, just like the current inspect screen identifying the player's ship (when it works).
Though I can't support the argument that things should stay a certain way forever just because that's the way they have been before.
What insults? There were no insults. I have no idea where you are seeing insults in what I said.
For most of the rest of your post, though, you're just going on and on about things inspect cannot fix at all. If someone jumps into a queue unprepared that isn't going to change with inspect. If you think they aren't pulling their weight, inspect won't tell you that either, a parser will give you a better idea, but still may not answer that question accurately.
So you find out the weak link, what then? Assuming their ability to refuse your inspect, what is different versus your ability to just inspect them with no refusal option? You might get an idea of why they are the weak link because of weak gear or poor build, but then what? You have to make them do something to change this problem, but the only way you can do that is talking to them like a human being.
If they refused inspect from the outset, what do you think the difference is here? You still have to talk to them either way, and assuming you can do it in a way that is tactful, considerate, and not being a jerk, they still may not be interested in changing anything.
As someone else said, opt in is actually the most likely best way to do this. If you can first talk to them like a person with some respect, they may become very amenable to showing you their build so you can help them with it. So you tell them how to opt in and let you look over their build to suggest changes. Alternatively they don't care and aren't interested in it so you don't waste your time pouring over their build looking for problems. The way I see it, there are 3 outcomes, either they listen and let you inspect and learn to make heavy DPS builds, they do or don't listen but don't bother with elite anymore, or finally they don't listen and queue wherever they want. Bottom line, inspect only helps if they are willing.
Now for the question you say is unanswered, about going into a queue with all that information that can be parsed and dissected, the fact is you still don't have enough to know someone's full build. And you have to spend time working it all out. It is a level of effort you have to be a dedicated jerk to still harass someone after all that.
You can't tell what mark most of their equipment is, however. You can't harass the person who happens to be top DPS in the group over their mk6 console that they may have accidentally equipped or are trying to get the dilithium to continue to upgrade it. You don't get to screech at them about how their mk 12 gear should all be mk 15 to do ISA, or how it should be gold, not purple trash gear. You don't get to complain about their green doffs alongside no fleet gear or a Romulan without full SRO officers. You just don't know those things without inspect.
Someone who wants to spend a ton of time and effort with a parser just to harass people over things they think are wrong with the build is definitely already a possibility. However, most people willing to harass aren't interested in putting that effort in to everyone they meet, but if you give them an easy tool that lets them find a target with a glance, you empower them that way. You take away that hoop to jump through that increases the required effort.
People build fences even though someone can just get a ladder or two, or even climb many fences. They don't stop everyone, but they do greatly reduce the number who will make the effort. It keeps out the casual trespassers.
I'm not saying that you don't agree - it's quite obvious that you don't think gear is the end all be all - but an inspect feature would not make it any better for me. Why? Because it most likely wouldn't show what skills (or powers) a person is using. That wouldn't be an inspect feature, that would be a "make your entire character known to anyone that wants to look" and that is NOT what's being discussed here.
So while, again!, seeing someone with a mix of different weapons and/or different energies does not suggest that they know what they're doing, it's not enough for me to say for certain.
That's why I said "chances are". I did not say that you would necessarily know. There's a huge difference.
And I'm sorry, but require coordination have nothing - at all - to do with gear. It may be related to skills (say, the need to use a gravity well here or a repulsor there), but not with gear. And again, we're not discussing a "let me see ALL" feature, but a simple "gear inspect" one.
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point here. You can inspect someone to your heart content... and then? What good it's that going to do? Ignoring people in this game does NOT prevent you from getting in a public queue with them, so even if you see someone running around with a build that's extremely nonsensical, what then?
And if they don't ASK you specifically for input, the best thing you can do is keep your opinion to yourself. At most, you can say "hey, I noticed you struggled a bit during the last queue... I can give you a hand, if you want". But that's that.
And a big NO on an inspect feature at a distance. There's absolutely no need for it.
I don't want to derail the thread, and since mine was just an example game - one I'm very well experienced in - I'm just gonna say this: if they knew what their players did to tweak the gear? Sure. But since they don't - it's obvious, when devs don't even know what tanks would use B-mods for - it's just another way to make the game even grindier. They made a fine mess that they will need to fine-tune because, as always, they don't listen. I hoped they would've learned their lesson after Galactic Command came out, when it took them one year to get to something even remotely decently, but nope. They went and did it all over again... just, way way worse.
I agree that if gear and builds are not what they should be, you have a harder job in front of you, but it's nothing that would get resolved by this feature.
If I want to make my build public - and ask for help - I can always use other tools (even just a damn screenshot). An inspect feature, wile useful, is not necessary at all.
Yes, but it's my job to choose the tools I'm gonna use and to care for them, not yours. And I'm saying this as someone that's not opposed to this feature, at all.
Again, you can't simply go up to someone and tell them you noticed that they're running a TRIBBLE build because, no matter how you word it, ultimately it's not your business, unless they specifically ask for help.
So, make it optional. And as @baddmoonrizin make it so that the default state is "off".
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
See below on this one.
Seems pretty insulting to me but moving along.
I've never once said inspect will fix everything and have acknowledged multiple times that on its own won't fix all of the issues. What I have stated is it gives a nice frame of reference to eliminate gear and setup as the cause of the issues. Assuming the person actually wants help, it eliminates the need for 3rd party apps and having to spend 30 minutes or more sometimes while someone fills out a build page, and then hoping they filled it out with enough information to actually help them. A simple inspect lets you see everything in one convenient place without having to alt-tab out and all that extra. That is what I have said.
If/when the weak link is found, one can PM them along the lines of the following. "Greetings I'm (insert name here) from the last run. I noticed you were blowing up quite a bit and you seemed to have a harder time killing the enemy ships. Is there anything I can do to help, including spamming some missions to get you better equipment?" In fact I have done this several times and keep Aegis sets on hand, ultra rare and very variety, as well as some basic crafted items like weapons, and even old t5u box ships if necessary to get people started. If the person is someone who is a newer player and they want it, I will typically wire them a basic set of mk xii weapons or higher depending what's on hand, and a full loadout with a ship that upgrades for free to get started with. The level of help I provide depends on what they need. It could be a situation of them needing a full setup, or as simple as "remove that item there, shift Item B up to Slot C, and change Power D to Power E and you're good to go." There is a person in my fleet with a learning disability who was only putting out 10k DPS and was blowing up a fair amount. 10k dps is a fair sum, but he wanted to do more. Over the course of a year we got him hooked up with a Kelvin Constitution as well as some bits of gear, and actually helped him learn why he was doing what he was doing, and now he can crank 60k dps and rarely ever dies. I am not above helping people, nor is any sensible veteran player.
The only times I have actually told someone off is if they're trying to AFK the entire run, or are doing all of 2k DPS and trying to talk TRIBBLE in the run. In instances like that I firmly believe they deserve a little kick in the aft shuttle bay but that's another conversation entirely. I have no problems helping folks when they actually want to learn and get better. The ones that really grind my gears though are the ones that are all "you're just a DPS d bag and pure pay to win" and then complain everything is too hard when they're simply refusing to learn and get better, and complaining that everything needs to be nerfed. Like no, no it doesn't, but again side tangent.
There are also times and places aside from reasons I have given so far when knowing someone's build or what they're doing can actually give you more insight into your own numbers. There are quite a few team buffs and items out there today that can and do effect team performance. If someone is running a fully leveled tac ultimate this can effect your numbers, as can the Fleet Maneuver Gamma console from Dominion ships as just a couple examples. If one doesn't recognize one of the buffs, you can ask the person running the build certainly. If for some reason they're not sure what you're talking about, then an inspect can help solve this issue. If you notice your numbers were higher in a run than normal, but you can't explain why, then knowing the builds of those in the run could help explain it as perhaps one of them had a console. Yes i'm aware there will be some that never want to learn or get better. In that instance I still maintain if they can't pull the necessary weight for the run and have no interest or desire in improving, they have no business in that run as it just makes it miserable for all. And again you do NOT need a full mk xv epic everything build to succeed in game. Virtually any ship out there with just mk xii very rare stuff from missions, a basic cohesive setup, and even basic piloting skills, can hit 30k dps no problem. Alot of folks act like it's some huge big secret and arduous task to get decent respectable numbers, but it's really not. I just do not understand this aversion some people have to being required to be conscious at their keyboards and being asked to contribute more than the 2% to avoid an afk penalty.
I don't have enough to know the exact mark and grade of their gear no, but I can still dissect the other 90% of the build. Figuring it out isn't as hard as you think it is. All I have to do is pull up the combat log and read what's there. If I see a bio-molecular incubation thing, then I can surmise they're running one of the bio-molecular weapons from the Counter Command rep. If they're using specialized one off weapons like the Terran Task Force Beam array, it will tell me that's what they're using. If I see 3 different entries for phaser, 2 of them reputation and then one other that just says Phaser Beam array, and no mention of a torpedo, then it's simple math to know what else they had weapon wise. If there are 2 rep weapons, and the 3rd entry just says Phaser Beam array, and that entry is registered at 60k dps, then assuming their ship is a 4/4 layout, all I have to do is divide by 6 and that's how much each of their other weapons was doing. Plus I also know the other 6 weapons are Phasers since no other weapons are mentioned in the log. I can also see what firing modes they used in the run. If they're running all cannons but are using FAW instead of Scatter Volley, then I know there is an issue there. About the only things I can't see is when they activate certain buffs like a DPRM console if they have it, Maneuver Gamma, though I can see via the graphs when they threw their buffs, even if I can't see what all of those buffs are, and of course the mark and grade of their gear. Other than that sort of thing I can see everything else.
In regards to your mk vi console example, unless they're just filling the slot so they have something vs nothing, a veteran player isn't going to slap a mk vi console on a ship when they can get better. Also again who said anything about needing mk xv to do an ISA, because I certainly didn't. The most I have said on that sort of thing is it's stupid easy today to get a full set of mk xii very rare gear from mission rewards. You do not need fleet gear to succeed in game. It can help certainly, but is not required. I also don't use all purple doffs on even my main, even though I have the means to get them, so why would I care what doffs they're using? For that matter you don't need doffs to succeed either, but they definitely help. As to not knowing if they're running all crit consoles with SROs and similar, I won't know the specific buffs, but I can tell via their crit rating if they're boosting it at all based on the rate they're critting. If they're critting at really high amounts, I can tell they're boosting crit or have some boosts present on the build. If their crit rate is average, then I know they're only running average crit chance. Again 90% of a person's build is visible via the parsers, so why hide specifics at that point?
Like I said before, I'm aware there will be people who would abuse an inspect feature and try to use it to shame someone. However they do that now even without one. Folks that are determined to troll and harass others will do so regardless of what features are present in the game or not. If we quit adding features to games just because a few people MIGHT abuse it, then virtually all development on anything new will cease. Some people use modern technology for some pretty vile and evil purposes, but just because those particular people choose to abuse it, is not a valid enough reason to stop developing new and better technologies. The best folks can do is try to implement the technology in a way to minimize the potential of that abuse. In this instance with the inspect, we already have the report and ignore functions if someone wants to try to harass someone and be a tool. If something is going on heaven forbid, and they don't say something or use the available features, they bear some responsibility at that point. Yes the other person shouldn't be a jerk and they bear the chief responsibility. At the same time folks have tools at their disposal if/when a situation arises and aren't as powerless as you're making it sound. Every feature in game has the potential to be abused in one way or another and those determined to troll will always find a way with or without this new feature.
Lastly, as I've said many times now, I don't see what's so unreasonable about expecting folks to be conscious at the keyboard. I don't expect folks to do a 70 bagillion DPS, but I do at least expect that if they're joining a queue that requires 30k minimum from everyone in the run, that they're able to pull that 30k. If they can't, then they're not ready for it and it just becomes a miserable experience for all. This is why I have pushed for tools so folks can have that information and better ways to share builds, such as the inspect function, so they can actually improve. Overall I still maintain the benefits outweigh the possible downsides.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator