But the fact that you don't have much knowledge regarding the game says this part here
I've played the game since it went F2P. Its long been a point of bragging among the DPS elite about how easily they can solo, or practically solo, the BORG TFOs, both ground and space.
A lot of people talk about being able to Solo Borg Space Elites.
I have never heard a 'DPS'er' brag about soloing Borg Grounds, not sure what you're basing that on.
So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
And what DO you define as "too hard for advanced"? You still haven't explained what you consider the defining line between advanced level and elite level ground content to be. Which is the point here. The devs decided that this content didn't belong in advanced.
You're derailing the thread, so stop. This thread is not about Kobayashi Frakking Maru. It's not about DPSing and soloing Borg Space TFOs. It's about the removal of the Borg Ground TFOs, in particular Manus, from Randoms. So, stop pontificating and stay on topic.
Star Trek Online Volunteer Community Moderator and Resident She-Wolf
Community Moderators are Unpaid Volunteers and NOT Employees of Gearbox/Cryptic
Views and Opinions May Not Reflect the Views and Opinions of Gearbox/Cryptic
Just looking at this, it could seem to an outsider that anything that makes a challenge might not be viewed in a good light currently by the Cryptic devs (anything below elite level maybe). This does not make me feel comfortable at all.
Agreed. When was it said that a game should only be "oh, you can't do it? cool no problem... just wait out the timer and you'll be good to go anyway!"
In 2015 when they removed the fail conditions.
If that's the whole point, then remove anything that's not normal from the random, reinstate the queued people counter for advanced and elites and be DONE with it.
The thing is, there is a separate Normal random queue already. But Cryptic was not willing to tell players who had trouble in Advanced to play Normal in 2015 with the fail condition debacle and they still aren't.
That's why there are multiple difficulties: to allow everyone to have fun (without stress) while also getting rewarded for what they can actually do. It's not a bad thing if you never go above normal, just as it's not a bad thing if you never go below advanced.
I agree. Unfortunately Cryptic doesn't. They've decided that everyone should play Advanced, and everyone should win it every time.
Elite queues being removed (and never reintroduced again), advanced stuff getting removed from the random pool of queues, auto-win content being constantly added is doing nothing but punishing those players that, for whatever reason, actually enjoy a challenge.
Pretty much. I mean, I don't mind picking up freebie rewards in itself, but without some challenge to use them against they seem worthless. The only reason to even bother to pick anything up is limited-time stuff that goes away after the event, and even then only for pure completionism.
At some point, enough must be enough.
I'm sure when everything wins itself 100% automatically without players lifting a finger, people will stop complaining it's too hard.
They'll whine the wait for the autowin is too long, instead.
FFS, just remove the whole RTFO system if you're going to arbitrarily exclude content, something which goes completely against the logic (increased frequency of queues launching, more rewards for unexpected situations) as to why the system was added to the game in the first place.
It's not arbitrary. The devs explained it adequately.
The devs need to know if queues are broken or too hard. But collecting that information implies they plan to act on it. This is them acting on it.
No, acting on it would be fixing it. Removing it from RTFOs is just hiding it.
Fixing it would be one way of acting on it, but it's not the only way. "Hiding" it or removing it entirely are ways of acting on it, too.
A simple way to act on it is to ensure it doesn't cause too many people to be bothered.
The missions in the RTFOs mostly seem to be build around a similar level of time needed to be played (with ideally comparable levels of rewards for time spend on them). If a mission tends to be out of line with this expectation, it causes problems, because players cannot predict how long it will take them. For people that have only limited amount of uninterrupted play time, a TFO like Infected causes problems, and it can go so far as to discourage them from even bothering to do RTFOs - or playing the game all together. That is not in Cryptic's interest (and arguably, neither the player's interest.)
I also remember the Cure Applied taking excessively long, so I hope they look at that too.
I am not sure if I'd prefer them to rebuild these missions so they can be returned to the TFO, or if I'd rather see them being turned into a special Elite Only TFOs that can last a bit longer. There is clearly not just demand for the RTFO style shorter group content (which we now already have plenty), but also a desire for some more complex and challenging longer group missions.
markhawkman's implication, as I interpreted it, was that it was removed from RTFOs so that it could be fixed.
That's not true here, and specifically what I meant when I said they haven't acted. All they've done is "hidden" it away from all but those who intentionally seek it out. As we've seen in the past, if Cryptic decides to fix a TFO, they remove it, work on it, then return it, usually with great fanfare and an re-introductory event based on it. Thing is, it's not getting removed or fixed, because they don't have time to work on it, and removing it entirely without a plan to fix it would cause too much in-game/forum fuss. Look at what simply removing it from RTFOs has done.
* Also, to clarify something after I had a chance to re-watch the livestream a few times, Kael didn't ask for it to be removed. He remarked that he was surprised that it hadn't already been removed, as other Borg Ground TFOs already had and confirmed by Jesse. Kael DID say several times, "fix it," because the TFO does suffer from some poor design choices.
You know what he also was saying, while getting his lawn fudge pounded, folded, and compressed by the Borg.
"This suuuuuuuuuuucks!"
You saw his performance. He didn't really list any "poor design choices," and what could be done to improve them, if any. Except maybe the respawn point locations or the end room lockout(the lockout isn't anything exclusive to STO, as raids in other games have that as well). But if you noticed through the gameplay, he didn't sprint to go faster, or if he did, he is pretty much a turtle. Nowadays, a lot of the time, "fix it!" translates to "I don't like this. It's too hard. Remove or nerf it," when coming from people who don't know how to play. Because they quit too easily or refuse to learn. Speaking for myself, I don't have any faith or trust in Kael or a lot of the devs anymore to make good decisions. Something like the removal from the RTFO list only a couple of days after he Kael'd the Infected: Manus Advanced is no coincidence. Anything they'll say to justify would be just spin to hide behind, since it can obviously still be played to successful completion.
Now, for those who have trouble with the jumping/walking across the blocks, there are ways around that. Have other teammates shift to that role, while you provide covering fire. There's also the "blinkstrike/shadowstep" kit module that allows you to teleport behind an enemy with a gaggle of buffs to yourself and a placate/expose to them. I use it all the time for my melee/assassination build. But it's a universal kit module you can use to adapt.
So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
And what DO you define as "too hard for advanced"? You still haven't explained what you consider the defining line between advanced level and elite level ground content to be. Which is the point here. The devs decided that this content didn't belong in advanced.
Aside from critter values the game draws the line between advanced and elite with fail criteria for conditions in elite you have experienced as optional directives in advanced. IGA has none of those fail criteria and is thereby advanced.
What do you want to hear seems to be ”Yea, IGA is the hardest of the advanced maps because of the jumping part”, a part where a team has to actually do something if it hopes to see the end of the map? Ok, so let’s say yes… then what? We remove the next hardest map from RTFO, kaga because one in team has to know how to read and one more how to type in chat? … then uaa… lol then cca? All because Kael was unlucky enough to end up in an instance there where others did not conclude the map for him?
No. If we do that we entirely end up with advanced = auto conclude content we get shipped with newer maps every release already, conditions so dumb that players aren't even needed to fulfil them. All in order to be STO community proof with Kael being the measuring stick, right?!
Task like the one we face in IGA are important to make one feel like we are playing a game where something actually has to be done if you want it to continue. Modern maps don’t have that and they don’t have so at the cost of an insult to intelligence for any good player out there. And those who arent good yet have exactly zero reason to ever become good.
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So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
And what DO you define as "too hard for advanced"? You still haven't explained what you consider the defining line between advanced level and elite level ground content to be. Which is the point here. The devs decided that this content didn't belong in advanced.
Aside from critter values the game draws the line between advanced and elite with fail criteria for conditions in elite you have experienced as optional directives in advanced. IGA has none of those fail criteria and is thereby advanced.
Of course if you DO look at the critter values, it has enough Elite Tactical Drones to count as Elite content.
Task like the one we face in IGA are important to make one feel like we are playing a game where something actually has to be done if you want it to continue.
Yeah, I edited out the meaningless pontificating. So, clearing probes in the Mycelial realm doesn't count since they're technically optional? Um.. sure.. so why are you advocating keeping the team jumping/console/timed puzzle as-is instead of making it something that, for example, doesn't reset? If all you want is for the players to have to do something to make the mission proceed, then why have it reset at all?
So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
And what DO you define as "too hard for advanced"? You still haven't explained what you consider the defining line between advanced level and elite level ground content to be. Which is the point here. The devs decided that this content didn't belong in advanced.
Aside from critter values the game draws the line between advanced and elite with fail criteria for conditions in elite you have experienced as optional directives in advanced. IGA has none of those fail criteria and is thereby advanced.
Of course if you DO look at the critter values, it has enough Elite Tactical Drones to count as Elite content.
Lol, what? Ok then, so remove HSA, too, since... you know, there are so many tactical cubes in there it might just as well be Elite!
Task like the one we face in IGA are important to make one feel like we are playing a game where something actually has to be done if you want it to continue.
Yeah, I edited out the meaningless pontificating.
People calling you out on your TRIBBLE = meaningless pontificating. Yep, that's exactly how it is. Congratulations!
So, clearing probes in the Mycelial realm doesn't count since they're technically optional? Um.. sure.. so why are you advocating keeping the team jumping/console/timed puzzle as-is instead of making it something that, for example, doesn't reset? If all you want is for the players to have to do something to make the mission proceed, then why have it reset at all?
Does the mission progress if you don't clear them? Ops, it does! Ergo: optional.
And we're advocating to keep it exactly as it is because we want some CHALLENGE. I don't know how many other times we have to say it, nor if we need to use some other language. Making it so that it doesn't reset do not make it challenging. It makes it just as mind-dumbin as the rest.
And really, if you're advocating for this... why not advocate for the removal of the devices resetting in BoS? Scratch that, why do you need more than one people to deactivate them? Or hell, why do you even need to deactivate them at all?
Also, remove the fail condition from it, so that you just need to wait out the timer instead of DOING something more than shooting stuff to avoid failing the queue.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
“I know you are just going to ignore it again like you did the first time but...
PRACTICALLY.”
So like your other post that is wrong which I am not going to go into detail here so as not to derail the thread, you admit to being wrong on this and that DPSers cannot solo them. They require team work, communication and timing by the players all of which mean pure DPS alone isn’t enough.
What I would like to see is all the Borg STFs that don’t have an Elite version get an Elite version added. But not just more HP and more damage. They should be like the ground Borg TFO’s that require team work, communication and timing by the players. What I like about the ground STF's is what the player does matters, its not just DPS.
There is nothing really wrong with the ground STF's, they don't need removing just because of a bad player. Perhaps a few minor updates but nothing to warrant removing them. Personally for the jumping bit I press B and go into First Person Shooter mode.
This compared to something like Pahvo Dissension ... where you can't even come close to completing it ... , without the help of other team members.
For what do you need the help of other team members in Pahvo Dissension? Unlike IGA, CGA or KGA I don't recall that you do.
To start the queue, basically. That's all there is to it, seeing as there's no fail condition whatsoever and every so called objective is nothing more than optional.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
This compared to something like Pahvo Dissension ... where you can't even come close to completing it ... , without the help of other team members.
For what do you need the help of other team members in Pahvo Dissension? Unlike IGA, CGA or KGA I don't recall that you do.
To start the queue, basically. That's all there is to it, seeing as there's no fail condition whatsoever and every so called objective is nothing more than optional.
Yea.
For Phavo there is only elite mode where one needs to act. I remember to 2-man it with a very good ground player some time ago. We barely made it but it was more of a DPS/power creep thingy where the fighting got too tough, not the mission parameter as such. I could not have done it on my own for sure.
Of course there is nothing of consequence in Advanced/Normal. STO wiki covers both Phavo Dissension as well as Mycelial Realm well enough. On Phavo literary everything is optional and in Mycelial the walkthrough even uses the phrase “if it fails, it will autocomplete”.
It’s like you say, you only need a team to start the missions there. You don’t even need one player to beat it and surely not a team.
Not at all like IGA.
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
*facepalm* Why the hell are they doing this? It makes no sense.
Sure it does.
The devs have made it clear for several years now they hate the Borg TFOs, and Defera, and wish they had the chance to axe them and remake them. Any excuse to bury what they consider a dark spot on the game is a field day for them.
PWE always has excuses to remove content. The last time they gutted content, it was to streamline the story arc. Well, we all know how well that worked. :P I don't care much for Defera or the current implementation of the Borg STF's, but I do wish the originals were brought back as an elite TFO. Both space and ground combined with those talking Federation Supply Crates in Kithomer were awesome and challenging!
'But to be logical is not to be right', and 'nothing' on God's earth could ever 'make it' right!'
Judge Dan Haywood
'As l speak now, the words are forming in my head.
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Well this thread has certainly gone places while I have been busy on the Federation/Klingon Border.
Anyway, you can bet I will be asking Kael the question on the next live stream about the removal. Just in case i cannot make it I ask the folks on reddit/sto or someone else who watches the stream to ask on my behalf.
Would really like a more definitive answer on the reason. Which if stated in the first place could have more directed this conversation on the merits of it being removed from random a bit more directly. While many reasons already stated here would have been said if we had been given the reason, i cannot help but think this "vaccum" of knowledge has had a more destabilizing effect overall.
So I guess you fundamentally agree that it's harder than what is considered normal for an advanced TFO.
And your guess would be wrong.
There is a difference between 'harder then average' and 'too hard.'
While it's a little tougher then some other queues, it's still well within the bounds of difficulty for advanced queues.
And what DO you define as "too hard for advanced"? You still haven't explained what you consider the defining line between advanced level and elite level ground content to be. Which is the point here. The devs decided that this content didn't belong in advanced.
Aside from critter values the game draws the line between advanced and elite with fail criteria for conditions in elite you have experienced as optional directives in advanced. IGA has none of those fail criteria and is thereby advanced.
Of course if you DO look at the critter values, it has enough Elite Tactical Drones to count as Elite content.
Lol, what? Ok then, so remove HSA, too, since... you know, there are so many tactical cubes in there it might just as well be Elite!
And yet, it has less tactical cubes than a competent team fighting borg in Dranuur Gauntlet, the last phase of which will happily spawn unlimited dreadnoughts as fast as the team can kill them, even on Normal.
Arguing that something should "count as Elite" based on the number of enemies is silly.
But then again, if the devs wanted to re-introduce the Elite STFs, that would be awesome in itself. We've been waiting for years to get those back, especially as they never did reconnect the accolades they broke by turning them into Advanced.
So, clearing probes in the Mycelial realm doesn't count since they're technically optional? Um.. sure.. so why are you advocating keeping the team jumping/console/timed puzzle as-is instead of making it something that, for example, doesn't reset? If all you want is for the players to have to do something to make the mission proceed, then why have it reset at all?
Does the mission progress if you don't clear them? Ops, it does! Ergo: optional.
And we're advocating to keep it exactly as it is because we want some CHALLENGE. I don't know how many other times we have to say it, nor if we need to use some other language. Making it so that it doesn't reset do not make it challenging. It makes it just as mind-dumbin as the rest.
Right. Peeps who can't/won't jump can play the Normal version that has the Easy Mode bridges to walk over the gaps. Advanced should have some challenge.
Really, nobody's saying get rid of all the Easy Mode. Just, put it in Normal where it belongs.
This compared to something like Pahvo Dissension ... where you can't even come close to completing it ... , without the help of other team members.
For what do you need the help of other team members in Pahvo Dissension? Unlike IGA, CGA or KGA I don't recall that you do.
You're drawing a meaningless line in the sand. If you want to treat failing as the same as success, argue semantics someplace people care, because at this point all you're really doing is quibbling about technicalities and trying to say it actually matter in the big picture.
Whether objectives are technically "optional" is irrelevant when you're trying to complete all of them. It only matters to people who AREN'T trying. I suppose this means you think that Pahvo Dissension would be better designed if the optional was to purify stuff quickly and you had to purify it anyways even if the timer ran out? Well.... most groups I've played that mission with wouldn't notice the difference.
“No, because I never made such a point in the first place. As I pointed out, I used terms like practically, nearly, almost, and other such terms that notate a lack of being able to do it entirely solo, just that you can NEARLY do it solo.”
Since when is getting half way though a mission and failing or 5% though a mission and failing classed as nearly, practically soloing the mission? Looking at the original 3 Borg maps Khitomer in Stasis, Cure Applied, Infected: Manus I have never seen anyone have the team mates warp out and then get anywhere near soloing the 3 the maps not even the highest DPS ground players. It’s just not possible to come close to completing them solo. We can solo more of Pahvo Dissension then we can of the 3 original Borg maps.
Which is why the maps are so good as it’s not about pure DPS but about team work and communication.
I would love to see the old combined space and ground maps in 1 group run return. Not in random mind you that is something you would want a pre planed team for. Some of the most fun I had in STO was the original NWS and original 3 STF’s before they got split into 6. Perhaps that’s an idea remove Infected: Manus for some minor updates on normal/advanced but keep it ground only. Then bring an Elite version that combines the corresponding space/ground map into 1 long raid STF. Perhaps tie it into Epic Endeavours.
I don't understand why anyone is humoring the idea of soloing the Borg ground STFs. It's not possible due to the interactions required and never was. You need live bodies in multiple places at the same time. It was always possible to solo the bosses, but there is more to those STFs than that.
Now I also see some odd nostalgia here too. As much as I like the teamwork needed in the Borg STFs, they were designed not to kick you out if you failed, but to reset and force you to try again. This was a seriously bad problem when we had mandatory optionals in every STF, none of which were designed with failure states in mind, nor around completing the optionals.
Remember Azure Nebula Rescue where to this day its still utterly random whether you can complete the optionals? Or how about the ludicrousness of clearing a section of Brotherhood of the sword too quickly makes you autofail the optionals? I still don't understand why we need to worry about alarm bugs in Bug Hunt when we are loudly slaughtering hundreds of them; it's not a stealth mission. But these STFs wasted your time completely back in the day with the silly mandatory optionals, instantly ending.
The only original STF that kicked you out on failure was Khitomer Accord where you had to stop 10 probes from getting through the gate, but when that was built, it was the beginning section of the STF (granted that section is largely unchanged today, but you didn't spend 2-4 hours running the whole thing only to auto-fail at the end fighting Donatra.)
The problem with newer STFs is that few of them are designed with real teamwork in mind, and even moreso they aren't designed to allow for resets. Failure was just, you lose, you don't even get told why, and not only did you waste however much time you spent, but you're also getting a cooldown for that particular STF. The failure conditions of a few years ago were some of the most asinine and ridiculous nonsense I've seen in a game. But there isn't a reason to change the STFs that were designed well to the standard of the newer STFs. They are different flavors, and I don't see a problem with that.
Infected is mostly fine the way it is, including its reset conditions. Thin out the horde a bit so it doesn't take so long, but its mostly fine. Yeah sadly few other STFs were designed that thoughtfully, but Infected works the way it was intended to and I do not want to see it changed.
Well this thread has certainly gone places while I have been busy on the Federation/Klingon Border.
Anyway, you can bet I will be asking Kael the question on the next live stream about the removal. Just in case i cannot make it I ask the folks on reddit/sto or someone else who watches the stream to ask on my behalf.
Would really like a more definitive answer on the reason. Which if stated in the first place could have more directed this conversation on the merits of it being removed from random a bit more directly. While many reasons already stated here would have been said if we had been given the reason, i cannot help but think this "vacuum" of knowledge has had a more destabilizing effect overall.
Honestly, if that happens it'll just be restating what Jesse Heinig already stated. Hive ground is quicker and easier. Missions that normally take 20+ minutes are not the length the devs consider to be normal.
Well this thread has certainly gone places while I have been busy on the Federation/Klingon Border.
Anyway, you can bet I will be asking Kael the question on the next live stream about the removal. Just in case i cannot make it I ask the folks on reddit/sto or someone else who watches the stream to ask on my behalf.
Would really like a more definitive answer on the reason. Which if stated in the first place could have more directed this conversation on the merits of it being removed from random a bit more directly. While many reasons already stated here would have been said if we had been given the reason, i cannot help but think this "vacuum" of knowledge has had a more destabilizing effect overall.
Honestly, if that happens it'll just be restating what Jesse Heinig already stated. Hive ground is quicker and easier. Missions that normally take 20+ minutes are not the length the devs consider to be normal.
The original Borg STF where designed to be longer then normal. That's how they should be. Typical a MMO has a large batch of fast standard missions and then a small batch of 20min longer harder raid like missions. Which is where in my mind STO has gone wrong as all the raid missions got removed or drastically cut down. STO is worse off today in end game content then it was in the first few years of going live. Everything now is pretty much mid end causal content.
@warpangel Yep, exactly right on all points. Those that say that IGA is too hard for advanced are those that want normal difficulty for everything but elite, so they can queue advanced, get more marks and the elite mark and still do nothing of consequence but pushing one button.
This compared to something like Pahvo Dissension ... where you can't even come close to completing it ... , without the help of other team members.
For what do you need the help of other team members in Pahvo Dissension? Unlike IGA, CGA or KGA I don't recall that you do.
You're drawing a meaningless line in the sand. If you want to treat failing as the same as success, argue semantics someplace people care, because at this point all you're really doing is quibbling about technicalities and trying to say it actually matter in the big picture.
He is arguing his point where people care, as shown by many different people in a lot of posts in this thread alone.
You are the one that came to this thread with the sole intention of being an TRIBBLE to those of us that are actually going to be penalized by this absurd decision while people like you, that argue about how stuff should NOT be hard in ADVANCED, will be happy that one of the last bit of challenge has been made even more unaccessible.
Whether objectives are technically "optional" is irrelevant when you're trying to complete all of them. It only matters to people who AREN'T trying. I suppose this means you think that Pahvo Dissension would be better designed if the optional was to purify stuff quickly and you had to purify it anyways even if the timer ran out? Well.... most groups I've played that mission with wouldn't notice the difference.
Too bad we were never discussing people trying to complete the optional until we completely debunked your - and others - tired argument of "there's no such thing as auto-win in the game", so you came up with something else to try and make us look like idiots.
And now that we've debunked even the myth of "if you don't complete the optionals, you're failing the mission", now you come up with something else. Something that will absolutely be debunked, too, because all the optionals in IGA can be done quite easily if only people would put their mind to it instead of expecting to go in, steamroll everything with little to no regards for mechanics, tactics and even their own teammates.
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Whether objectives are technically "optional" is irrelevant when you're trying to complete all of them. It only matters to people who AREN'T trying. I suppose this means you think that Pahvo Dissension would be better designed if the optional was to purify stuff quickly and you had to purify it anyways even if the timer ran out? Well.... most groups I've played that mission with wouldn't notice the difference.
For Normal, maybe. On Advanced and above that's not enough, the timer running out should make the mission FAIL.
Actually fail, not that thing where the mission wins itself, gives you the rewards and event progress, but that you and Som pretend is a "fail" because you didn't get some insignificant optional bonus on top.
Well this thread has certainly gone places while I have been busy on the Federation/Klingon Border.
Anyway, you can bet I will be asking Kael the question on the next live stream about the removal. Just in case i cannot make it I ask the folks on reddit/sto or someone else who watches the stream to ask on my behalf.
Would really like a more definitive answer on the reason. Which if stated in the first place could have more directed this conversation on the merits of it being removed from random a bit more directly. While many reasons already stated here would have been said if we had been given the reason, i cannot help but think this "vacuum" of knowledge has had a more destabilizing effect overall.
Honestly, if that happens it'll just be restating what Jesse Heinig already stated. Hive ground is quicker and easier. Missions that normally take 20+ minutes are not the length the devs consider to be normal.
The original Borg STF where designed to be longer then normal.
Longer than what? A story mission? Because that's the only yardstick there was at the time. Then again this is back before they were queues and also before the TFO system. Because... that's when they were designed. Which is why Jesse keeps calling them "legacy content". They're not being used for the purpose for which they were designed.
Whether objectives are technically "optional" is irrelevant when you're trying to complete all of them. It only matters to people who AREN'T trying. I suppose this means you think that Pahvo Dissension would be better designed if the optional was to purify stuff quickly and you had to purify it anyways even if the timer ran out? Well.... most groups I've played that mission with wouldn't notice the difference.
For Normal, maybe. On Advanced and above that's not enough, the timer running out should make the mission FAIL.
Actually fail, not that thing where the mission wins itself, gives you the rewards and event progress, but that you and Som pretend is a "fail" because you didn't get some insignificant optional bonus on top.
Yep, exactly like it happens in Brotherhood of the Sword. THAT is a fail condition, as it should be. Guess we know what they're coming after next, uh?
Not agreeing with someone doesn't give you the right to be an TRIBBLE.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
I suppose this means you think that Pahvo Dissension would be better designed if the optional was to purify stuff quickly and you had to purify it anyways even if the timer ran out?
Designed better?
Dude I would take it for granted in content that is labled *Advanced* -5- Player versus Environment. I would even consider it (for) *Normal* as I have never played any games before STO where it is entirely optional if a player interacts with the game if he happens to want to see the end of a level.
Its only here where I have to keep quiet and eat more and more of Forrest Gump requirenment content. Either that or being called elitist for hoping that fellow players continue to get basic functionalities as in jumping straight. God, it was ok for 2012 but is "dated" for 2019 remember...
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Comments
A lot of people talk about being able to Solo Borg Space Elites.
I have never heard a 'DPS'er' brag about soloing Borg Grounds, not sure what you're basing that on.
My character Tsin'xing
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Equality of outcome isn't a good thing.
You know what he also was saying, while getting his lawn fudge pounded, folded, and compressed by the Borg.
"This suuuuuuuuuuucks!"
You saw his performance. He didn't really list any "poor design choices," and what could be done to improve them, if any. Except maybe the respawn point locations or the end room lockout(the lockout isn't anything exclusive to STO, as raids in other games have that as well). But if you noticed through the gameplay, he didn't sprint to go faster, or if he did, he is pretty much a turtle. Nowadays, a lot of the time, "fix it!" translates to "I don't like this. It's too hard. Remove or nerf it," when coming from people who don't know how to play. Because they quit too easily or refuse to learn. Speaking for myself, I don't have any faith or trust in Kael or a lot of the devs anymore to make good decisions. Something like the removal from the RTFO list only a couple of days after he Kael'd the Infected: Manus Advanced is no coincidence. Anything they'll say to justify would be just spin to hide behind, since it can obviously still be played to successful completion.
Now, for those who have trouble with the jumping/walking across the blocks, there are ways around that. Have other teammates shift to that role, while you provide covering fire. There's also the "blinkstrike/shadowstep" kit module that allows you to teleport behind an enemy with a gaggle of buffs to yourself and a placate/expose to them. I use it all the time for my melee/assassination build. But it's a universal kit module you can use to adapt.
Aside from critter values the game draws the line between advanced and elite with fail criteria for conditions in elite you have experienced as optional directives in advanced. IGA has none of those fail criteria and is thereby advanced.
What do you want to hear seems to be ”Yea, IGA is the hardest of the advanced maps because of the jumping part”, a part where a team has to actually do something if it hopes to see the end of the map? Ok, so let’s say yes… then what? We remove the next hardest map from RTFO, kaga because one in team has to know how to read and one more how to type in chat? … then uaa… lol then cca? All because Kael was unlucky enough to end up in an instance there where others did not conclude the map for him?
No. If we do that we entirely end up with advanced = auto conclude content we get shipped with newer maps every release already, conditions so dumb that players aren't even needed to fulfil them. All in order to be STO community proof with Kael being the measuring stick, right?!
Task like the one we face in IGA are important to make one feel like we are playing a game where something actually has to be done if you want it to continue. Modern maps don’t have that and they don’t have so at the cost of an insult to intelligence for any good player out there. And those who arent good yet have exactly zero reason to ever become good.
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Your irrelevant question has already been answered, you just won't accept that answer. I have no interest in continuing to argue in circles with you.
My character Tsin'xing
People calling you out on your TRIBBLE = meaningless pontificating. Yep, that's exactly how it is. Congratulations!
Does the mission progress if you don't clear them? Ops, it does! Ergo: optional.
And we're advocating to keep it exactly as it is because we want some CHALLENGE. I don't know how many other times we have to say it, nor if we need to use some other language. Making it so that it doesn't reset do not make it challenging. It makes it just as mind-dumbin as the rest.
And really, if you're advocating for this... why not advocate for the removal of the devices resetting in BoS? Scratch that, why do you need more than one people to deactivate them? Or hell, why do you even need to deactivate them at all?
Also, remove the fail condition from it, so that you just need to wait out the timer instead of DOING something more than shooting stuff to avoid failing the queue.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
What I would like to see is all the Borg STFs that don’t have an Elite version get an Elite version added. But not just more HP and more damage. They should be like the ground Borg TFO’s that require team work, communication and timing by the players. What I like about the ground STF's is what the player does matters, its not just DPS.
There is nothing really wrong with the ground STF's, they don't need removing just because of a bad player. Perhaps a few minor updates but nothing to warrant removing them. Personally for the jumping bit I press B and go into First Person Shooter mode.
For what do you need the help of other team members in Pahvo Dissension? Unlike IGA, CGA or KGA I don't recall that you do.
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To start the queue, basically. That's all there is to it, seeing as there's no fail condition whatsoever and every so called objective is nothing more than optional.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Yea.
For Phavo there is only elite mode where one needs to act. I remember to 2-man it with a very good ground player some time ago. We barely made it but it was more of a DPS/power creep thingy where the fighting got too tough, not the mission parameter as such. I could not have done it on my own for sure.
Of course there is nothing of consequence in Advanced/Normal. STO wiki covers both Phavo Dissension as well as Mycelial Realm well enough. On Phavo literary everything is optional and in Mycelial the walkthrough even uses the phrase “if it fails, it will autocomplete”.
It’s like you say, you only need a team to start the missions there. You don’t even need one player to beat it and surely not a team.
Not at all like IGA.
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ingame: @Felisean
PWE always has excuses to remove content. The last time they gutted content, it was to streamline the story arc. Well, we all know how well that worked. :P I don't care much for Defera or the current implementation of the Borg STF's, but I do wish the originals were brought back as an elite TFO. Both space and ground combined with those talking Federation Supply Crates in Kithomer were awesome and challenging!
l don't know.
l really don't know what l'm about to say, except l have a feeling about it.
That l must repeat the words that come without my knowledge.'
Anyway, you can bet I will be asking Kael the question on the next live stream about the removal. Just in case i cannot make it I ask the folks on reddit/sto or someone else who watches the stream to ask on my behalf.
Would really like a more definitive answer on the reason. Which if stated in the first place could have more directed this conversation on the merits of it being removed from random a bit more directly. While many reasons already stated here would have been said if we had been given the reason, i cannot help but think this "vaccum" of knowledge has had a more destabilizing effect overall.
Arguing that something should "count as Elite" based on the number of enemies is silly.
But then again, if the devs wanted to re-introduce the Elite STFs, that would be awesome in itself. We've been waiting for years to get those back, especially as they never did reconnect the accolades they broke by turning them into Advanced.
Right. Peeps who can't/won't jump can play the Normal version that has the Easy Mode bridges to walk over the gaps. Advanced should have some challenge.
Really, nobody's saying get rid of all the Easy Mode. Just, put it in Normal where it belongs.
Whether objectives are technically "optional" is irrelevant when you're trying to complete all of them. It only matters to people who AREN'T trying. I suppose this means you think that Pahvo Dissension would be better designed if the optional was to purify stuff quickly and you had to purify it anyways even if the timer ran out? Well.... most groups I've played that mission with wouldn't notice the difference.
My character Tsin'xing
Which is why the maps are so good as it’s not about pure DPS but about team work and communication.
I would love to see the old combined space and ground maps in 1 group run return. Not in random mind you that is something you would want a pre planed team for. Some of the most fun I had in STO was the original NWS and original 3 STF’s before they got split into 6. Perhaps that’s an idea remove Infected: Manus for some minor updates on normal/advanced but keep it ground only. Then bring an Elite version that combines the corresponding space/ground map into 1 long raid STF. Perhaps tie it into Epic Endeavours.
Now I also see some odd nostalgia here too. As much as I like the teamwork needed in the Borg STFs, they were designed not to kick you out if you failed, but to reset and force you to try again. This was a seriously bad problem when we had mandatory optionals in every STF, none of which were designed with failure states in mind, nor around completing the optionals.
Remember Azure Nebula Rescue where to this day its still utterly random whether you can complete the optionals? Or how about the ludicrousness of clearing a section of Brotherhood of the sword too quickly makes you autofail the optionals? I still don't understand why we need to worry about alarm bugs in Bug Hunt when we are loudly slaughtering hundreds of them; it's not a stealth mission. But these STFs wasted your time completely back in the day with the silly mandatory optionals, instantly ending.
The only original STF that kicked you out on failure was Khitomer Accord where you had to stop 10 probes from getting through the gate, but when that was built, it was the beginning section of the STF (granted that section is largely unchanged today, but you didn't spend 2-4 hours running the whole thing only to auto-fail at the end fighting Donatra.)
The problem with newer STFs is that few of them are designed with real teamwork in mind, and even moreso they aren't designed to allow for resets. Failure was just, you lose, you don't even get told why, and not only did you waste however much time you spent, but you're also getting a cooldown for that particular STF. The failure conditions of a few years ago were some of the most asinine and ridiculous nonsense I've seen in a game. But there isn't a reason to change the STFs that were designed well to the standard of the newer STFs. They are different flavors, and I don't see a problem with that.
Infected is mostly fine the way it is, including its reset conditions. Thin out the horde a bit so it doesn't take so long, but its mostly fine. Yeah sadly few other STFs were designed that thoughtfully, but Infected works the way it was intended to and I do not want to see it changed.
My character Tsin'xing
He is arguing his point where people care, as shown by many different people in a lot of posts in this thread alone.
You are the one that came to this thread with the sole intention of being an TRIBBLE to those of us that are actually going to be penalized by this absurd decision while people like you, that argue about how stuff should NOT be hard in ADVANCED, will be happy that one of the last bit of challenge has been made even more unaccessible.
Too bad we were never discussing people trying to complete the optional until we completely debunked your - and others - tired argument of "there's no such thing as auto-win in the game", so you came up with something else to try and make us look like idiots.
And now that we've debunked even the myth of "if you don't complete the optionals, you're failing the mission", now you come up with something else. Something that will absolutely be debunked, too, because all the optionals in IGA can be done quite easily if only people would put their mind to it instead of expecting to go in, steamroll everything with little to no regards for mechanics, tactics and even their own teammates.
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Actually fail, not that thing where the mission wins itself, gives you the rewards and event progress, but that you and Som pretend is a "fail" because you didn't get some insignificant optional bonus on top.
My character Tsin'xing
Yep, exactly like it happens in Brotherhood of the Sword. THAT is a fail condition, as it should be. Guess we know what they're coming after next, uh?
Ci sono tre tipi di giocatori:
- quelli a cui non va mai bene niente... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che sono talmente imbesuiti da credere a qualunque cosa i dev dicano, perfino che la luna è fatta di formaggio... e vanno sul forum a trollare;
- quelli che credono a quello a cui è giusto credere, sono d'accordo con quello con cui è giusto essere d'accordo e sono critici con quello che non va;
Ai giocatori dei primi due tipi, gratis in omaggio un bello specchio lucente su cui arrampicarsi. E una mazzata in testa per la loro poca intelligenza e compassione verso gli altri giocatori che non la pensano come loro.
Agli appartenenti al terzo tipo, invece, dico grazie. Anche se non sempre si riesce a mantenere la calma, siete quelli per cui vale la pena incazzarsi.
Designed better?
Dude I would take it for granted in content that is labled *Advanced* -5- Player versus Environment. I would even consider it (for) *Normal* as I have never played any games before STO where it is entirely optional if a player interacts with the game if he happens to want to see the end of a level.
Its only here where I have to keep quiet and eat more and more of Forrest Gump requirenment content. Either that or being called elitist for hoping that fellow players continue to get basic functionalities as in jumping straight. God, it was ok for 2012 but is "dated" for 2019 remember...
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.